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DLaw
05-08-2009, 4:46 PM
Just a heads up ADCO firearms posted this quote on another gun forum...

I dont sell mags to cops in CA either. One cop wanted me to send him GSG Mags. **** him.

If your looking to buy something from the company maybe you should buy elsewhere.. Seems like he's anti CA anti LEO...

Matt C
05-08-2009, 4:54 PM
Or maybe he is anti-doublestandard/special privileges.

daerror12
05-08-2009, 4:58 PM
I have done business with them in the past, and never had any problems. I was able to purchase uppers and lower parts kits from them. But I never tried to order a lower. Was this on ARF, I would like to see the post.

DLaw
05-08-2009, 5:02 PM
Or maybe he is anti-doublestandard/special privileges.

It's not the policy that bugs me it's that the guys a turd...

DLaw
05-08-2009, 5:02 PM
I have done business with them in the past, and never had any problems. I was able to purchase uppers and lower parts kits from them. But I never tried to order a lower. Was this on ARF, I would like to see the post.


Yeah It was Arfcom..

Technical Ted
05-08-2009, 5:07 PM
And the LE function of the GSG-5 is what?

gose
05-08-2009, 5:09 PM
And the LE function of the GSG-5 is what?

Traffic Cop who wants to play SWAT member on weekends?

DLaw
05-08-2009, 5:11 PM
And the LE function of the GSG-5 is what?

Guys issued HK's MP5's 93's 91's maybe want to train with the GSG5's budget's are tight, if the department signs off on it then why not?

But I'll say it again, it's not the policy that bugs me it's the attitude.

Technical Ted
05-08-2009, 5:15 PM
Guys issued HK's MP5's 93's 91's maybe want to train with the GSG5's budget's are tight, if the department signs off on it then why not?

But I'll say it again, it's not the policy that bugs me it's the attitude.
Why not use airsoft? At least the puff guns have select fire? A GSG-5 is still going to be semi-auto and that isn' going to train you in controlled bursts.

For the record, I've been doing business with Addco for at least 5 years and they've always treated me with respect.

Matt C
05-08-2009, 5:17 PM
It's not the policy that bugs me it's that the guys a turd...

Well then link to the post that demonstrates that, because what you posted just makes it look like he does not want to send something to cops that everyone else can't get, and is irritated that they would try. I can certainly understand that.

It does not seem like they are particularly picky about sending to CA in general either.

gose
05-08-2009, 5:20 PM
Why not use airsoft? At least the puff guns have select fire? A GSG-5 is still going to be semi-auto and that isn' going to train you in controlled bursts.
For the record, I've been doing business with Addco for at least 5 years and they've always treated me with respect.

Yeah, you can even get a high quality Airsoft MP5 from the same company making the fine GSG-5s and SIG Mosquitos! :)

DLaw
05-08-2009, 5:20 PM
Why not use airsoft? At least the puff guns have select fire? A GSG-5 is still going to be semi-auto and that isn' going to train you in controlled bursts.

For the record, I've been doing business with Addco for at least 5 years and they've always treated me with respect.

Well then make your own decisions on the matter, If they don't want to sell to California L/E then I'll pass the word along and let people decide for themselves if they want to do business with them or not..

You can have a no sales to L/E policy and that's fine, why be a jerk about it?

DLaw
05-08-2009, 5:21 PM
Yeah, you can even get a high quality Airsoft MP5 from the same company making the fine GSG-5s and SIG Mosquitos! :)

Really not the point I'm trying to make here...

Matt C
05-08-2009, 5:24 PM
Well then make your own decisions on the matter, If they don't want to sell to California L/E then I'll pass the word along and let people decide for themselves if they want to do business with them or not..

You can have a no sales to L/E policy and that's fine, why be a jerk about it?

Well then your thread title is misleading and borderline libelous, they are not CA unfriendly they just choose not to treat CA LE as "special" compared to the rest of the CA population.

Hopi
05-08-2009, 5:26 PM
You can have a no sales to L/E policy and that's fine, why be a jerk about it?

You should research the LEA orgs involvement/support for gun-grabbing here in CA.......

Jicko
05-08-2009, 5:27 PM
+1 for Steve @ ADCO, good guy..... I have even been to his shop physically...

RE: hi-cap mag to CA cops... all US businesses have the right to deny business to anyone...

PS. is there a link to "exactly" what he said on ARF? and maybe a little background on the story...... maybe the CA LE pissed him off first? I dunno....

PPS. "ADCO firearms Not CA or L/E friendly" <- I don't think he is not-CA friendly, i used him to get me stuff and build me stuff before! maybe just not CA-LE friendly....

gose
05-08-2009, 5:34 PM
How come when Barrett refused to service and sell .50s to CA LEOs, he was labeled a hero, but when ADCO do the same they're Anti-CA?

CaliTheKid
05-08-2009, 5:35 PM
Just a heads up ADCO firearms posted this quote on another gun forum...

I dont sell mags to cops in CA either. One cop wanted me to send him GSG Mags. **** him.

If your looking to buy something from the company maybe you should buy elsewhere.. Seems like he's anti CA anti LEO...

Thanks for the heads up. Guys obviously anti cop. **** him. :thumbsup:

thedrickel
05-08-2009, 5:37 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Guys obviously anti cop. **** him. :thumbsup:

I don't think he's anti-cop, looks like he's anti special privileges for cops.

CaliTheKid
05-08-2009, 5:44 PM
I don't think he's anti-cop, looks like he's anti special privileges for cops.

Lets agree to disagree:)

nobody33
05-08-2009, 6:25 PM
Thanks for the heads up, Ill make sure I never do business with him. Just another hater.

matrix056
05-08-2009, 9:57 PM
I thought this was an LEO forum?? Airsoft is a joke, .22LR is an inexpensive way to train with duty weapons. So should LEO's not be able to get hi-cap mags for .22 conversions for Sig P226s and .22 mags for AR15's?

If everyone didnt go overboard with their ammo hoarding maybe we could actually find ammo at decent prices train with something other than .22.


Just my 2 cents

DANGERCLOSE
05-09-2009, 10:23 PM
maybe we should get a group buy together from a supporting competitor:thumbsup: i could use more 22 rounders. i am not special but will take advantage of the letter of the law. by the way isn't that what oll and everything else we do here is about. if adco doesn't want our business, then i bet there are 10 more that will.

BigDogatPlay
05-10-2009, 10:17 AM
How come when Barrett refused to service and sell .50s to CA LEOs, he was labeled a hero, but when ADCO do the same they're Anti-CA?

Bingo... Barrett's stand is built on the principle of equal protection.

It would be nice to see the full context of what ADCO said or did at arf.com or where ever.

nobody33
05-10-2009, 10:31 AM
How come when Barrett refused to service and sell .50s to CA LEOs, he was labeled a hero, but when ADCO do the same they're Anti-CA?

Barrett said they wouldn't service the department guns... IE the guns owned by the gov. After the Ca gov went after Barrett.

ADCO refused to sell to an individual officer just a mag... that's a huge difference. Do you think a beat cop has any say in the law or 2A rights? no. ADCO just sounds anti cop.

WallyGeorge
05-10-2009, 10:40 AM
ADCO is good people. Don't come here and slander him because of a decision to treat non-leo with some respect.

tyrist
05-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Barrett said they wouldn't service the department guns... IE the guns owned by the gov. After the Ca gov went after Barrett.

ADCO refused to sell to an individual officer just a mag... that's a huge difference. Do you think a beat cop has any say in the law or 2A rights? no. ADCO just sounds anti cop.

Yup it's two very different things...Barret is more than happy to offer support to a private LE owner of his rifles. Not to mention the language used by ADCO in the first place.

If he stated he didn't want to make any exceptions that is fine...to actually say **** him is entirely different.

nobody33
05-10-2009, 10:53 AM
ADCO is good people. Don't come here and slander him because of a decision to treat non-leo with some respect.

So saying "f*** him" to a guy because he wanted to buy some mags because he is a cop is treating others with respect? No ones slandering him. If that's what he said that's what he said.

CaliTheKid
05-10-2009, 11:06 AM
Yup it's two very different things...Barret is more than happy to offer support to a private LE owner of his rifles. Not to mention the language used by ADCO in the first place.

If he stated he didn't want to make any exceptions that is fine...to actually say **** him is entirely different.

This is the point well put.

Matt C
05-10-2009, 11:40 AM
So saying "f*** him" to a guy because he wanted to buy some mags because he is a cop is treating others with respect? No ones slandering him. If that's what he said that's what he said.

Except the OP won't post a link to what he is talking about, so we don't have the whole story.

yzernie
05-10-2009, 1:15 PM
It appears the guy that was trying to buy the mags is in compliance with the Cali law. Like it or not, Cali has afforded the purchase of high cap mags to law enforcement personnel. The bias and harsh words displayed toward LEO's (not just in this thread) for taking advantage of the law is unsettling.

I guess the bottom line is we as buyers can do business with any vender we choose.

joe_sun
05-10-2009, 1:21 PM
I'm backing Adco on this. There is ZERO reason for cops to be allowed to buy high caps when the unwashed masses aren't allowed to buy them.

slowjonn
05-10-2009, 1:37 PM
There is ZERO reason for cops to be allowed to buy high caps when the unwashed masses aren't allowed to buy them.

Except that thing called the California Penal Code which allows for it. Geez there is a lot of whining on this issue. I don't like the laws anymore than the rest of you. That said, it is what it is and there is not one person on this forum that would not take advantage of that opportunity if it was afforded to them. Myself included!

WallyGeorge
05-10-2009, 3:10 PM
Still waiting for a link to the original post...

I'll admit that if he really told the customer to F-off, then that is disrespectful and needs to be dealt with. However, you need to post something to validate this ASAP!!! when making an allegation like this.

trendar5
05-11-2009, 1:33 AM
I have to totally agree with Yzernie. I wonder what joe sun, Blackwater Ops, and thedrickel are even doing "contributing" to this forum? It is for LEO's, or for people to ask LEO's a question civilly, not blame cops for the hi-cap ban.

Cops don't make the laws about being allowed to have hi-cap mags. I doubt most cops are against civillians having high-cap mags. Its not a "privelege" to go to the next school, workplace, or mall mass shooting, or enter the home of a whole family slaughtered by the husband. It is a calling. If you have the desire and ability to be a cop, and all that comes with it, you can have the glorious perk of hi-cap mags, or you can possibly move to another state. All the officers remembered at the memorial in Sacramento this past week sure got "special treatment" when they got murdered doing their job.

Its not the fault of the police that the gun laws are the way they are. Very few of us hold elected office.

DLaw
05-11-2009, 8:31 AM
I don't think he's anti-cop, looks like he's anti special privileges for cops.

Hey and that's fine, but does he need to be a jerk about it?

DLaw
05-11-2009, 8:35 AM
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=138&t=173569&page=5

yzernie
05-11-2009, 9:16 AM
After reading that thread I came to this conclusion...there are only two people who know who the jerk was in the attempted purchase and they are the seller abd the potential buyer. I can understand ADCO's opinion on the rules here but the buyer is lawfully allowed to buy them. I will say, IMHO, ADCO went over the top with his "F-him" comment on a public message board. If he wanted to tell the guy that in their private conversations I say fine but on a public message board that was, again IMHO, inappropriate.

DLaw
05-11-2009, 9:37 AM
After reading that thread I came to this conclusion...there are only two people who know who the jerk was in the attempted purchase and they are the seller abd the potential buyer. I can understand ADCO's opinion on the rules here but the buyer is lawfully allowed to buy them. I will say, IMHO, ADCO went over the top with his "F-him" comment on a public message board. If he wanted to tell the guy that in their private conversations I say fine but on a public message board that was, again IMHO, inappropriate.


My thoughts exactly...

Matt C
05-11-2009, 9:51 AM
ACDO explanation:


I dont give any special treatment to anyone based on their chosen profession. When someone claiming to be a LEO in CA contacted me about shipping 22rd GSG mags, I said sure, I just need a signed letter by the chief on Dept. letter head that it was for duty use and I would send the mags to the address on the letterhead. The reply I received was that as a LEO, he was exempt from the CA laws and the signed letter by the chief was not necessary. I asked around and found as a cop he was "entitled" to items fellow, unworthy CA gun owning residents could not posess. That, IMO is bull****.

I politely told him to pound sand.

My policy for LE discounts is the same. Dept. Letterhead signed by the chief stating its for duty use, shipped to the Dept. I'm not going to help anyone fund their hobby, because their resume includes the word "Law Enforcement Officer".

It's not a hate thing, I dont treat anyone different based on their occupation. Ditch diggers get the same pricing and service as Dentists or Electrical Engineers....

ETA - yes, Dept. Letterhead for the mags would have gotten them shipped, and still would today.

I said **** him, not **** cops. I'm anti anyone who thinks they are entitled to special privileges because of their job no matter what it is.


I agree 100%. It's not like CA LEO are grossly underpaid or something like AD mil folk are. The mags he was asking for were obviously not for duty use, but he felt that since he was a cop he deserved special treatment and that he was above the law that applied to everyone else. He may actually be above that law, but thankfully business owners still have the free to tell him to F off.

nobody33
05-11-2009, 10:34 AM
I bet he sells to the movie industry, military, and other "special classes" when he can.

He's just anti cop. The legislature and dems would love for the bans and rules to apply to the cops too. They want an unarmed populace- including the police. The people who won't sell to CA are just playing into that.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 10:37 AM
I bet he sells to the movie industry, military, and other "special classes" when he can.

You have absolutely jack to support that, you don't know the guy or who he sells to.

CaliTheKid
05-11-2009, 10:39 AM
"I dont give any special treatment to anyone based on their chosen profession. When someone claiming to be a LEO in CA contacted me about shipping 22rd GSG mags, I said sure, I just need a signed letter by the chief on Dept. letter head that it was for duty use and I would send the mags to the address on the letterhead."

That guy is living in fantasyland. I can't imagine asking the Sheriff of my department (which is exactly he is esentially asking) for a letter to buy hi cap mags for duty. The law exists so we don;t have to do that. Adco obviously doesn't want Cali cop biz or he is a grossly ill informed about department politics which I tend to think is not the case. He's just being grandiose and political at the expense of a Cali cop. "Oh look at me-- I'm the king of equality for all". Gimme a break.

And blackwaterops-- you need to stop with the petty digs at cops in your posts. There are like 50 plus other forums here for that.

CavTrooper
05-11-2009, 10:53 AM
+1 for ADCO!

They will get my buisness for sure!

Cypriss32
05-11-2009, 11:00 AM
The legislature and dems would love for the bans and rules to apply to the cops too. They want an unarmed populace- including the police.


I seriously doudt that buddie...... They want YOU and the Feds to have all the firearms if it ever came down to that.... Just like europe.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 11:05 AM
That guy is living in fantasyland. I can't imagine asking the Sheriff of my department (which is exactly he is esentially asking) for a letter to buy hi cap mags for duty. The law exists so we don;t have to do that.


These mags were OBVIOUSLY not for duty. I'm sure he would take a letter from an LT on letterhead.

nobody33
05-11-2009, 11:27 AM
You have absolutely jack to support that, you don't know the guy or who he sells to.

I know that he is cussing at cops and no one else. I saw pictures on his website of stuff he sold to troops. So yeah I do...

I don't hear people crying about the military on Pendelton or the movie studios for having all the toys like select fire guns, but there's a lot of crying about LEO's getting hi cap mags?

Matt C
05-11-2009, 11:32 AM
I don't hear people crying about the military on Pendelton or the movie studios for having all the toys like select fire guns, but there's a lot of crying about LEO's getting hi cap mags?

So, let me get this straight, you are comparing what the military gets in order to fight battles on foreign soil to what civilian LE gets? Like the two have anything to do with each other? :rolleyes:

The studios use the guns only as props and control them quite a bit more securely than LE or even the military does, so I don't see how that is even an issue.

yzernie
05-11-2009, 11:59 AM
These mags were OBVIOUSLY not for duty.
Not wanting to sound rude so please don't read that into this question...

How is it you know they are not for duty practice? Many deparments have MP5's and the GSG-5's would be an excellent training tool at a much less expensive cost for ammo.

yzernie
05-11-2009, 12:02 PM
he felt that since he was a cop he deserved special treatment and that he was above the law that applied to everyone else. He may actually be above that law, but thankfully business owners still have the free to tell him to F off.
Noone is above the law in this scenario as the law ALLOWS him to own those mags. Being above the law would be asking for them when he is not allowed to have them and believe he is exempt from the law. That is OBVIOUSLY not the case here.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Not wanting to sound rude so please don't read that into this question...

How is it you know they are not for duty practice? Many deparments have MP5's and the GSG-5's would be an excellent training tool at a much less expensive cost for ammo.

If it's for training he can use 10 round mags, the 22rd mags would not be the same capacity either.

Noone is above the law in this scenario as the law ALLOWS him to own those mags. Being above the law would be asking for them when he is not allowed to have them and believe he is exempt from the law. That is OBVIOUSLY not the case here.

The legislature exempted him from a law that most people are subject to. They did so IMO because they did not want to prevent officers from having the same firepower as criminals they may encounter while on duty who would ignore the high cap mag laws. They did not create the exemption so officers could have better toys than the rest of us.

There are plenty of places locally that officers can buy high caps for DUTY weapons with just a badge, at least around LA. The same dealers probably don't stock .22 high caps for obvious reasons.

robsolo
05-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks OP for the heads up. I'll stay away from ADCO.

yzernie
05-11-2009, 1:57 PM
The legislature exempted him from a law that most people are subject to.
You are correct, that is the law and any further discussion is pointless.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 2:09 PM
You are correct, that is the law and any further discussion is pointless.

I think there is a point to be made that such laws only foster the attitude that many LEOs have where they think they are superior in some way to the average person on the street.

matrix056
05-11-2009, 2:18 PM
Why do LEO's need hi-cap mags???
West Hollywood shootout, Columbine, Virginia Tech, active shooter situations and for every parolee that already HAS 30 round mags.....

No, some Departments dont issue AR's, magazines, .223 ammo for patrol riflemen. Thanks Joe Sun, for your brilliant comment.

trendar5
05-11-2009, 2:21 PM
Blackwater Ops, again, what is your question for a LEO on this forum? Do you really think you can make that point here? What are you going to do if there is some kind of mass casualty attack? I'm going to work! And I'm bringing all my "off duty" high cap mags with me, with some water and socks. You sit tight, I'll go into the fray. Am I superior, no. I have a strange job.

Further, I don't think that an officer in CA trying to buy some hi-cap mags is trying to feel like a special class of human being. Don't hate the cops, hate the magazine capacity restrictions.

It does not matter in the slightest if the magazines are for "duty" use or not. That is not part of the law. Department letterhead for a magazine purchase is not acceptable. In the end, the guy is just losing a sale....

Matt C
05-11-2009, 2:36 PM
In the end, the guy is just losing a sale....

And that's his decision. And I applaud it.

yzernie
05-11-2009, 3:13 PM
I think there is a point to be made that such laws only foster the attitude that many LEOs have where they think they are superior in some way to the average person on the street.
Attitudes go both ways.....

DLaw
05-11-2009, 4:00 PM
Did I mention also that ADCO is a site sponsor at Arfcom and so my thread that I posted in Brothers of the shield about Adco's feelings toward CA leo's was locked and trashed...

Again his company his rules and I'm fine with that but California leo's spend your money elsewhere.

5hundo
05-11-2009, 4:43 PM
GOOD!

I'm glad he doesn't sell product to CA LEOs...

If every gun manufacturer did the same, there would be no gun ban. I agree with his policies, which appears similar to Barrett's. Continue giving CA customers their products but refuse to do business with the state.

+1 ADCO!!!!

Ron-Solo
05-11-2009, 5:40 PM
+1 for ADCO!

They will get my buisness for sure!

Hey CavTrooper,

I've read many of your posts and you are very clearly Anti-Law Enforcement in your views so why don't you stay the heck out of the LEO forum. This forum is not for cop bashing, which you seem to do a lot of.

Don't go away mad, just GO AWAY !

Ron-Solo
05-11-2009, 5:52 PM
These mags were OBVIOUSLY not for duty. I'm sure he would take a letter from an LT on letterhead.

You obviously have no clue how a large (9,000 +) law enforcement agency works. On our department, it takes a captain or above to use letterhead.

As a law enforcement officer, I can walk into a gun store and purchase a Hi-cap magazine just by showing my department ID. A letter has not been required since the stupid federal ban expired.

As far as opinions that law enforcement people are not "above the law" you are right. The law specifically allows us to purchase hi-cap mags, so get over it. I don't like the law any more than you do, but I'm only one vote, and I don't vote for anyone who is anti-gun.

As yes, a GSG can be an excellent training tool for those that carry the MP-5. While it doesn't go full auto, it has a very similar feel and many departments don't have the budget for lots of training ammo so those of us that believe in being able to hit only what needs shooting, spend a great deal of our own money on training ammo.

By the way Blackwater Ops, your posts tend to be very anti-cop so why don't you stay out of the LEO forum. You obviously don't fit in, so why don't you just GO AWAY !

robsolo
05-11-2009, 5:54 PM
You obviously have no clue how a large (9,000 +) law enforcement agency works. On our department, it takes a captain or above to use letterhead.

As a law enforcement officer, I can walk into a gun store and purchase a Hi-cap magazine just by showing my department ID. A letter has not been required since the stupid federal ban expired.

As far as opinions that law enforcement people are not "above the law" you are right. The law specifically allows us to purchase hi-cap mags, so get over it. I don't like the law any more than you do, but I'm only one vote, and I don't vote for anyone who is anti-gun.

As yes, a GSG can be an excellent training tool for those that carry the MP-5. While it doesn't go full auto, it has a very similar feel and many departments don't have the budget for lots of training ammo so those of us that believe in being able to hit only what needs shooting, spend a great deal of our own money on training ammo.

By the way Blackwater Ops, your posts tend to be very anti-cop so why don't you stay out of the LEO forum. You obviously don't fit in, so why don't you just GO AWAY !

:thumbsup:

Ron-Solo
05-11-2009, 5:58 PM
I think there is a point to be made that such laws only foster the attitude that many LEOs have where they think they are superior in some way to the average person on the street.

But we are special. Months of initial training, years of continuing training, unusual working hours and conditions, countless life or death situations where a split second decision is essential....yeah, we're special, don't let anyone tell you were not.

There are streets in LA you wouldn't go down for a million bucks, I do it for a lot less.

Blackwater OPS, you are OBVIOUSLY NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, so why don't your STAY OUT OF THIS FORUM !

GO AWAY !

Ron-Solo
05-11-2009, 6:00 PM
GOOD!

I'm glad he doesn't sell product to CA LEOs...

If every gun manufacturer did the same, there would be no gun ban. I agree with his policies, which appears similar to Barrett's. Continue giving CA customers their products but refuse to do business with the state.

+1 ADCO!!!!

Your logic is amazing. If every gun manufacturer did that, there would just be no guns.

CaliTheKid
05-11-2009, 6:28 PM
But we are special. Months of initial training, years of continuing training, unusual working hours and conditions, countless life or death situations where a split second decision is essential....yeah, we're special, don't let anyone tell you were not.

There are streets in LA you wouldn't go down for a million bucks, I do it for a lot less.

Blackwater OPS, you are OBVIOUSLY NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, so why don't your STAY OUT OF THIS FORUM !

GO AWAY !

:thumbsup: x 1000

Matt C
05-11-2009, 6:44 PM
:thumbsup: x 1000

But we are special. Months of initial training, years of continuing training, unusual working hours and conditions, countless life or death situations where a split second decision is essential....yeah, we're special, don't let anyone tell you were not.

There are streets in LA you wouldn't go down for a million bucks, I do it for a lot less.

Blackwater OPS, you are OBVIOUSLY NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, so why don't your STAY OUT OF THIS FORUM !

GO AWAY !

:nopity:

gbackus
05-11-2009, 6:57 PM
And that's his decision. And I applaud it.

Except for the fact that he is descriminating against the officer for no other reason than he is an officer, which is illegal.


http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-articles/business-right-to-refuse-service.html

Matt C
05-11-2009, 7:10 PM
Except for the fact that he is descriminating against the officer for no other reason than he is an officer, which is illegal.


http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-articles/business-right-to-refuse-service.html

LOL, where did you go to law school? LEOs are not a protected class, and that guy does not ship large cap mags to anyone in CA with a dept letter, so no discrimination.

Cypriss32
05-11-2009, 7:25 PM
You obviously have no clue how a large (9,000 +) law enforcement agency works. On our department, it takes a captain or above to use letterhead.

As a law enforcement officer, I can walk into a gun store and purchase a Hi-cap magazine just by showing my department ID. A letter has not been required since the stupid federal ban expired.

As far as opinions that law enforcement people are not "above the law" you are right. The law specifically allows us to purchase hi-cap mags, so get over it. I don't like the law any more than you do, but I'm only one vote, and I don't vote for anyone who is anti-gun.

As yes, a GSG can be an excellent training tool for those that carry the MP-5. While it doesn't go full auto, it has a very similar feel and many departments don't have the budget for lots of training ammo so those of us that believe in being able to hit only what needs shooting, spend a great deal of our own money on training ammo.

By the way Blackwater Ops, your posts tend to be very anti-cop so why don't you stay out of the LEO forum. You obviously don't fit in, so why don't you just GO AWAY !



You were *****ing about people saying they feel some cops claim to have a superior attitude then civs. You do man... And dont say im anti cop, you dont know me. Im not suprissed if I have more cop friends then you can imagine.

CaliTheKid
05-11-2009, 8:02 PM
:nopity:

LOL!!! This is the cyber equivalent of the kid who flicks off your radio car and then runs into the house to hide.:hide:

Triad
05-11-2009, 8:17 PM
Can we lock this thread please?

Matt C
05-11-2009, 8:41 PM
LOL!!! This is the cyber equivalent of the kid who flicks off your radio car and then runs into the house to hide.:hide:

How do you figure the hiding part? I'm not hard to find.

biglou
05-11-2009, 8:46 PM
A lot of whining and hating. The LE bashers that are posting in this thread should be banned from this Specialty Forum. Blackwater Ops read rule #3 of this forum.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 8:51 PM
A lot of whining and hating. The LE bashers that are posting in this thread should be banned from this Specialty Forum. Blackwater Ops read rule #3 of this forum.

Please link to the post where LE "bashing" occurred. I do agree with you about the whining though. Also, I don't have a dislike of LEOs in general.

biglou
05-11-2009, 9:00 PM
3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

You are airing your dislike of the law in general. Especially as it pertains to LE being able to legally buy high cap mags. This is not the forum for that.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 9:08 PM
3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

You are airing your dislike of the law in general. Especially as it pertains to LE being able to legally buy high cap mags. This is not the forum for that.

No actually I'm not. I said:

The legislature exempted him from a law that most people are subject to. They did so IMO because they did not want to prevent officers from having the same firepower as criminals they may encounter while on duty who would ignore the high cap mag laws. They did not create the exemption so officers could have better toys than the rest of us.

The law makes perfect sense. ADCO choosing not to sell mags to a cops that at least seem to be for personal use, when everyone else can't buy them, also makes sense. I don't think it's a reason for anyone to boycott ADCO or call them "anti-CA" or really even anti-LE.

Also, here is yours truly "OBVIOUSLY NOT [being] LAW ENFORCEMENT" ;) :

http://b4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00316/49/45/316745494_l.jpg

I also have friends that are LE, a few of which are on this forum.

biglou
05-11-2009, 9:24 PM
From what I have read in all these posts, certain individuals are upset in general that they cannot buy hi cap mags legally, yourself included. If the OP wants to ban a vendor than so be it. No one else has to. Ask your LE friends to read these posts and get their 2 cents. Thanks for your service.

Ron-Solo
05-12-2009, 8:15 AM
You were *****ing about people saying they feel some cops claim to have a superior attitude then civs. You do man... And dont say im anti cop, you dont know me. Im not suprissed if I have more cop friends then you can imagine.

Adam B,

This comment was directed at a specific individual who has a history of anti-law enforcement comments.

DLaw
05-12-2009, 9:29 AM
Can we lock this thread please?

I don't want a thread lock, I want to let other Leo's not to shop at Adco because of his attitude towards cops, not his business policies.

DANGERCLOSE
05-12-2009, 8:54 PM
i bet i can get a picture in my friends police car while wearing a dated cami blouse and arm band. are you currently in the military as a military police officer or are you a current law enforcement officer with a federal, state, or local agency? there is a difference.

Ron-Solo
05-14-2009, 10:28 AM
i bet i can get a picture in my friends police car while wearing a dated cami blouse and arm band. are you currently in the military as a military police officer or are you a current law enforcement officer with a federal, state, or local agency? there is a difference.

:D AMEN !

I have a picture of me somewhere in a flight suit sitting in the cockpit of a Cobra helicopter, it doesn't make me a pilot. (I was a Sheriff's Helicopter observer at the time, which explains the flight suit) :thumbsup:

Matt C
05-14-2009, 10:34 AM
You guys crack me up. Because I don't believe in special privileges I must not be in LE eh?

DANGERCLOSE
05-14-2009, 11:43 AM
on deployment i was snooping around on the flight deck when there were no flight ops and was peeking around a cobra and then a voice from behind said 'hey what are you doing'. some butter bar stopped me and then popped the lid and told me to get in. then he proceeded to run down all the things in the cockpit (gunner's seat). that was sweet. after that i took a picture in a huey in the pic seat. good times:thumbsup:

yzernie
05-14-2009, 12:32 PM
Because I don't believe in special privileges...
LE or not, disparaging remarks of a non-military LEO who, by the way, are in complete and total compliance with California law, are not warranted. I do not believe I am special in any way, but the law allows me to possess something and I take advantage of that law...just as you would (or maybe even do). It simply seems to me (and maybe others) the facts of law have no bearing in some folks opinions.

But, that is ok. This is the USA and we can cave varying opinions and not get banished to some sweat box!! :thumbsup:

Matt C
05-14-2009, 1:21 PM
LE or not, disparaging remarks of a non-military LEO who, by the way, are in complete and total compliance with California law, are not warranted. I do not believe I am special in any way, but the law allows me to possess something and I take advantage of that law...just as you would (or maybe even do). It simply seems to me (and maybe others) the facts of law have no bearing in some folks opinions.

But, that is ok. This is the USA and we can cave varying opinions and not get banished to some sweat box!! :thumbsup:

Heh, so he dropped the F bomb. It's (b)arfcom, gotta take it in context. But I agree that was unprofessional.

DLaw
05-14-2009, 1:27 PM
Heh, so he dropped the F bomb. It's (b)arfcom, gotta take it in context. But I agree that was unprofessional.

That's all I'm trying to say...It's his business so his rules,which is perfectly fine, it's the attitude I've got the issue with that's all...

CavTrooper
05-14-2009, 1:38 PM
Hey CavTrooper,

I've read many of your posts and you are very clearly Anti-Law Enforcement in your views so why don't you stay the heck out of the LEO forum. This forum is not for cop bashing, which you seem to do a lot of.

Don't go away mad, just GO AWAY !

Cry much?

Im not anti LEO, im anti ELITIST CA LEOs, who have horrible attitudes, no interpersonal skills, abuse their positions, and talk a big game but would wet themselves if they were put into my position :thumbsup:

Other than that, I am actually very supportive of LE and respect the job they do. Its a hard job and worthy of respect, but not special priviledge.

If the shoe fits.

Mute
05-14-2009, 1:57 PM
I fail to see the problem.

matrix056
05-14-2009, 2:35 PM
Guys cant we just end this on a happy note......

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd49/sinsational_angel/ArguingontheInternet.jpg

Ron-Solo
05-14-2009, 4:56 PM
Cry much?

Im not anti LEO, im anti ELITIST CA LEOs, who have horrible attitudes, no interpersonal skills, abuse their positions, and talk a big game but would wet themselves if they were put into my position :thumbsup:

Other than that, I am actually very supportive of LE and respect the job they do. Its a hard job and worthy of respect, but not special priviledge.

If the shoe fits.



Like I said, just go away. Just because we can legally purchase Hi-Cap mags doesn't make us special, elitist or anything like that. If they said dentists could buy them, a lot of gun friendly densists would. That doesn't make them elitist.

Don't know what "Your Position" is, but as far as wetting myself, not yet, but I have been scared more than once. You don't earn a Medal of Valor, 2 Medals of Bravery, and a Meritorious Service Award without being scared. I've been shot at more times than I can count and by the grace of God and good training by my FTO have come out on top every time. (I hated my FTO when I was on training, and thank him every time I run into him for teaching me what I know)

I've been at it 30 years now and have seen my share of the worst society has got. Most people have no clue what we really do every day. They think TV is real.

I wish the California gun laws weren't so stupid, but unfortunately, we're stuck with them for now. My adult son can't get Hi-Caps either. When he borrows one of my guns, he takes the 10 rounders we bought just for him so he doen't run afoul of any problems. It sucks. He only gets to use the hi-caps when I'm with him.

In my opinion, many of CavTrooper's posts show a resentment toward law enforcement, which is why I say he sould go hang out in another forum.

:thumbsup:

Matt C
05-14-2009, 4:59 PM
You better listen CavTrooper, he's got MEDALS! ;)

Ron-Solo
05-14-2009, 5:00 PM
LE or not, disparaging remarks of a non-military LEO who, by the way, are in complete and total compliance with California law, are not warranted. I do not believe I am special in any way, but the law allows me to possess something and I take advantage of that law...just as you would (or maybe even do). It simply seems to me (and maybe others) the facts of law have no bearing in some folks opinions.

But, that is ok. This is the USA and we can cave varying opinions and not get banished to some sweat box!! :thumbsup:


Exactly! :thumbsup:

eta34
05-14-2009, 5:35 PM
Cry much?

Im not anti LEO, im anti ELITIST CA LEOs, who have horrible attitudes, no interpersonal skills, abuse their positions, and talk a big game but would wet themselves if they were put into my position :thumbsup:

Other than that, I am actually very supportive of LE and respect the job they do. Its a hard job and worthy of respect, but not special priviledge.

If the shoe fits.

I agree with CavTrooper here. I get embarassed by some of our fellow officers who think they are God's gift to this earth. I don't respect them either. Because we share the same job should mean I should defend their every action?

By the way, the comparison of police medals to uniformed military service is laughable. It sounds like you have done a lot in your police career. Congratulations (an I mean that sincerely). However, you and I do nothing nearly as brave or honorable as serve in a foreign war.

Finally, I have disagreed with BWO on many issues. However, throwing the "anyone can get an MP costume" card out is silly. Please stop embarassing yourself.

JagerTroop
05-14-2009, 7:49 PM
Why do LEO's need hi-cap mags???
West Hollywood shootout, Columbine, Virginia Tech, active shooter situations and for every parolee that already HAS 30 round mags.....

No, some Departments dont issue AR's, magazines, .223 ammo for patrol riflemen. Thanks Joe Sun, for your brilliant comment.

First I'll say that I'm not bashing LEO, but your examples are flawed.

1) NORTH Hollywood shootout - LEO weapons weren't doing crap. They had to call on the support of civilian arms(gunstore ARs... Ironic, isn't it?), and no amount of hi caps were going to solve this problem. In the end it was all about shot placement.
2) Columbine - Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold commited suicide.
3) Virginia Tech - Seung-Hui Cho commited suicide

My point is that hi cap mags did not save the day. If I'm wrong, then why did police let numerous people die (Co. and Va.)... waiting for the gunmen to kill themselves? Put those hi caps to use, dammit.

...Don't hate the cops, hate the magazine capacity restrictions...


Just because you (LEO) are legally allowed to buy the hi caps, doesn't mean that you're entitled to the sale. The seller is not obligated to sell to CA LEOs. So I say, Don't hate the seller, hate the magazine capacity restrictions that he (ADCO) is protesting."

As an American, I feel that no LEO(in any state) should be given special treatment. LE, it's not your fault (in fact, I know many of you are on my(our) side), but you were once like me, and now are entrusted to protect me. For that, you are compensated monitarily. The extra perks/fringe benefits should come to a halt.

Nick5811
05-14-2009, 8:37 PM
For that, you are compensated monitarily. The extra perks/fringe benefits should come to a halt.

Hmm...I'm not sure what fringe benefits or extra perks you're talking about....could you elaborate?

Sure, Jack in the Box and Chili's will give you a 50% discount if you go there in uniform, but department policy specifically forbids you from accepting this corporate policy. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

JagerTroop
05-14-2009, 8:47 PM
Hmm...I'm not sure what fringe benefits or extra perks you're talking about....could you elaborate?

Sure, Jack in the Box and Chili's will give you a 50% discount if you go there in uniform, but department policy specifically forbids you from accepting this corporate policy. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

I'm not talking about free coffee at 7/11. What is this whole thread about? Hi cap magazines. I accept that they are tools used while on the job, but hi caps for personal use are "perks".

nobody33
05-14-2009, 9:10 PM
I'm not talking about free coffee at 7/11. What is this whole thread about? Hi cap magazines. I accept that they are tools used while on the job, but hi caps for personal use are "perks".

Based on cops I know in my department I know very very few who have hi-cap mags for non duty weapons (I can't even think of one off hand). I know very few that even have guns that are not used for duty or training. I don't have any.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 9:17 PM
Based on cops I know in my department I know very very few who have hi-cap mags for non duty weapons (I can't even think of one off hand). I know very few that even have guns that are not used for duty or training. I don't have any.

No worries, you are welcome to come to the range with me and shoot any of my guns, and I'll even let you use my high cap mags.

Nick5811
05-14-2009, 9:36 PM
Based on cops I know in my department I know very very few who have hi-cap mags for non duty weapons (I can't even think of one off hand). I know very few that even have guns that are not used for duty or training. I don't have any.

On topic:

I wouldn't do business with ADCO based on what I've read. If he doesn't want to sell to LEO, cool. Less business for him. They'll get their supplies elsewhere (or in this case, take the 10 rd mags apart and "manufacture" a hi-cap magazine they are legally allowed to possess.)

Off topic but related:

All the cops I know that carry off duty or own personal firearms have "regular" magazines for those firearms, not the neutered 10 rounders. I think it's because of the whole "you're never off duty" and survival mentality of those who carry.

Bad guys remember who put them in the can, and they don't play by the rules. Why take a chance with regular mags because you aren't carrying your duty weapon off duty? That's exactly why congress passes LEOSA in 2004; to allow cops to protect themselves off duty from the people they encounter on duty, regardless of where they live or travel.

In any case, I'm not a fan of limiting the capacity of magazines to law abiding citizens; but I don't think LEO's should be guilt-tripped or forced to give up the ability to purchase standard capacity magazines that may be used to defend their lives off duty either.

(and, not to pick on anyone, but an MP is not a police officer. They may perform (some of) the duties of one (in some cases), but they are definitely not the same.)

pummel
05-14-2009, 10:13 PM
I wonder if any of the "I applaud his decision not to sell to hi-caps to leo's" folks, were the same that whined up a storm over the larue lowers issue. Fact is he refused a legal sale for personal reasons(lame as they may be). I think the OP's intent, as he's states several times, is to put the word out regarding the seller's conduct, and I thank him for that. I don't think they'll get any more of my business.
As for all the sour grapes on here, sorry I'm exempt. It's not why I got into this line of work, but if it's there, then why should I pass on it? Specifically BWO, dude really, I know you were wronged but what your LEO related posts lead me to believe is that you are only in this specialty forum to stir the pot. I'd like to refer you to that violin smiley you posted earlier... If the shoe fits.
Cavtrooper, you too should ease up on your spite-tinged LEO related posts, at least in the LEO forum. And thanks for your service but leave that tough guy mil talk out of this, many of us have served and deployed overseas before serving our cities, without wetting my pants I might add :thumbsup:

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:11 AM
I know that he is cussing at cops and no one else. I saw pictures on his website of stuff he sold to troops. So yeah I do...

I don't hear people crying about the military on Pendelton or the movie studios for having all the toys like select fire guns, but there's a lot of crying about LEO's getting hi cap mags?

Wow, what a thread. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to see if the other referenced thread was linked. I didn't need to get far to see where the "cop" was at (in the other thread), a pro-Obama, dis-arm everyone else guy. I know, maybe that's a leap from what he said, but I strongly suspect that's where he is at.

As to "I don't hear people crying about the military on Pendelton or the movie studios for having all the toys like select fire guns", I would say this: the military and the movie studios don't ever wrongfully hassle or beat citizens (and NEITHER do MOST cops - but the military and movie studios NEVER do). And they never bother people about stupid gun laws that are legal for THEM in their private life, as an LEO. Too many LEO's lose touch with normal people's reality, and only hang with other LEO's (talking LEO stuff), and their wives start hanging with LEO wives, and hence there comes a dis-connect with Joe Good Citizen.

Cops always tell us what they "need", like "hands on the wheel, turn on the dome light", etc. Let me tell you what the citizen needs, as I see it. We need cops with COURAGE against the politicians, the upper management that turn into liberal politicians (and not cowards who will do or say anything to protect their pension, because something like the Lautenburg Act can end your dreams immediately). Remember, these same politicians caused hundreds of thousands of you to be summarily fired because of the Lautenburg Act, sometimes with 30+ years since the "offense". Once the upper echelons that really run things decide to start a more rapid rotation of LEO's out of power, you will see how vulnerable you too are.

All I ask is that you see things from all sides, and realize that we are all human, with fatal frailties. Cops personal lives, as a class, are no more virtuous than Joe Public's, as a class. We are all against the thugs. Don't go against Joe Public's God-given right and instinst to protect himself, something you can't nearly always do for him (thanks for trying, though).

Consider how many murders there are a year in the US. While those aren't a LEO failure, because you have no crystal ball, they ARE a failure of the law and societal attitudes, when the law and societal attitudes lead, or force, people to be defenseless. True, many murders couldn't be prevented in any way, but many could have been if there was a moral gun-friendly super-majority of the public. You LEO's, who can CCW anywhere in America, probably don't realize what an incredible sense of fresh air and freedom it is for the rest of us to legally drive through Nevada, for instance, with a loaded gun in the car, fully legal.

Just imagine the harmony that would come between lawful CA gunowners and cops in CA if it were that way here. Look at all the ridiculous waste of time wasted here talking about how to get from point A to B with such and such gun (legal transport, etc.), by someone who is in all respects, a "fellow good guy".

The sick state of California literally grieves my soul

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:15 AM
I think there is a point to be made that such laws only foster the attitude that many LEOs have where they think they are superior in some way to the average person on the street.

Is that superiority based on their super-low divorce rate?

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:22 AM
Answers in bold below:

Blackwater Ops, again, what is your question for a LEO on this forum? Do you really think you can make that point here? What are you going to do if there is some kind of mass casualty attack? I'm going to work! And I'm bringing all my "off duty" high cap mags with me, with some water and socks. You sit tight, I'll go into the fray. Am I superior, no. I have a strange job.

Too bad you weren't in South Central LA during the Rodney King riots when Reginald Denny was getting his head bashed in while the cops ran away. I'm sure he could have used your help.

Further, I don't think that an officer in CA trying to buy some hi-cap mags is trying to feel like a special class of human being. Don't hate the cops, hate the magazine capacity restrictions.

What have YOU done to help overturn them? And what have you done to ENFORCE them?

It does not matter in the slightest if the magazines are for "duty" use or not. That is not part of the law. Department letterhead for a magazine purchase is not acceptable. In the end, the guy is just losing a sale....

At least he's DOING something, even at personal cost, in line with his conscience. Again, what are YOU doing about the magazine capacity restrictions?

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:32 AM
Why do LEO's need hi-cap mags???
West Hollywood shootout, Columbine, Virginia Tech, active shooter situations and for every parolee that already HAS 30 round mags.....

No, some Departments dont issue AR's, magazines, .223 ammo for patrol riflemen. Thanks Joe Sun, for your brilliant comment.

What if the citizens whose houses the West Hollywood guys were passing by while shooting lived in a pro-gun environment, and had high-powered rifles and/or high cap mags. BTW, high-cap mags weren't what was needed there, WAS IT? It was either a high-powered enough rifle to pierce their armor, OR the luck shot that got through the crack in the armor, RIGHT?

And WHERE were the COPS at Virginia Tech? What was there positions in students having CCW's at VT?

Columbine? What did cops high-cap mags have to do with that at ALL?

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:39 AM
Did I mention also that ADCO is a site sponsor at Arfcom and so my thread that I posted in Brothers of the shield about Adco's feelings toward CA leo's was locked and trashed...

Again his company his rules and I'm fine with that but California leo's spend your money elsewhere.

Yes, send your money to the defense fund of the cops that beat the guy in LA after the car chase. You know, the one who kicked the guy who ran and layed down prone, and the cop that kicked him in the face, and the other one who whacked him with a flashlight. Send your money to them.

j/k

The day of reckoning is coming for those folks, so DON'T send your money to them. Distance yourself from such behavior as much as possible.

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 1:43 AM
You obviously have no clue how a large (9,000 +) law enforcement agency works. On our department, it takes a captain or above to use letterhead.

As a law enforcement officer, I can walk into a gun store and purchase a Hi-cap magazine just by showing my department ID. A letter has not been required since the stupid federal ban expired.

As far as opinions that law enforcement people are not "above the law" you are right. The law specifically allows us to purchase hi-cap mags, so get over it. I don't like the law any more than you do, but I'm only one vote, and I don't vote for anyone who is anti-gun.

As yes, a GSG can be an excellent training tool for those that carry the MP-5. While it doesn't go full auto, it has a very similar feel and many departments don't have the budget for lots of training ammo so those of us that believe in being able to hit only what needs shooting, spend a great deal of our own money on training ammo.

By the way Blackwater Ops, your posts tend to be very anti-cop so why don't you stay out of the LEO forum. You obviously don't fit in, so why don't you just GO AWAY !

You have a lot of forums that nobody can get into, why don't you just go there. We are for Constitutional Rights, and if you don't like it, why don't YOU just go away. And just to give you a look into the crystal ball, anyone against those rights will lose in the end. They will end up like the Gestapo, running as they they shed their uniforms. Don't be one of them.

cousinkix1953
05-15-2009, 1:43 AM
Or maybe he is anti-doublestandard/special privileges.
Does he have the same policy about exporting off-roster handguns for sale to cops as well? I can just see some hot shot attorneys filing wrongful death suits against cities and counties that permit LEOs to use so-called dangerous handguns!

Did a BART police officer shoot Oscar Grant with an off-roster handgun? His family should go after them if true. A case like this would put an end to this double standard and expose a big lie for what it really is...

TheBundo
05-15-2009, 2:19 AM
But we are special. Months of initial training, years of continuing training, unusual working hours and conditions, countless life or death situations where a split second decision is essential....yeah, we're special, don't let anyone tell you were not.

There are streets in LA you wouldn't go down for a million bucks, I do it for a lot less.

Blackwater OPS, you are OBVIOUSLY NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, so why don't your STAY OUT OF THIS FORUM !

GO AWAY !


Two Words: SPECIAL OLYMPICS (for you). A lot of us have to work in those same places. Consider being the person that has to paint out graffiti at a shopping center, in FULL VIEW of everyone, INCLUDING the GUN-TOTING guys who did the graffiti. WHAT, are you going to gaurd us the whole time. You arrogant jerk. How about the utility guy fixing something the bad guys cut in preparation for something future, and you guys don't connect the dots until it's to late (for me/us).

"Unusual working hours and conditions"

give me a break. You are an ELITIST *** for saying that. I DARE you to PM me with who you are, and I will gladly take YOU on a RIDE-ALONG without your gun, and see how YOU feel.
You ride in with the cavalry, with "re-inforcements", most of us are "F-***" vulnerable (speaking of terms used against CA cops that are ELITIST, and think THEY have the MOST dangerous jobs, you aren't even CLOSE to the top - how do you compare to the guys hanging over high-wires from helicopter buckets - geez)

"countless life or death situations where a split second decision is essential....yeah, we're special, don't let anyone tell you were not"

I won't tell you that you don't have a special place, but so do MANY of us (not all, Burger King workers aren't, etc, I know). Do you realize that those of us that keep your communications, electrical, etc., up and running, can't have high-cap mags, CCW's (in the most populous counties). You HORDES of COPS in those counties aren't doing a DAMN THING to help us get our rights, ARE YOU????? (except for the San Jose Cop on YouTube talking de-bunking "assault weapons")

You are hence on the wrong side of history, if you don't support us (who support what the Constitution and the Founding Fathers said), and become one of us (who support what the Constitution and the Founding Fathers said). The old-timer cops know the future if this isn't reversed, because John Demjanjuk just got put in prison in Germany for his WW2 crimes, and he's 89. You youngsters thought WW2 was ancient history, and the DMV protection of your address will save you if you are a wrongdoer / beater of citizens like the guy in LA today? Think again, and DON'T be an elitist. And all the deposed rulers, like Noriega and Imelda Marcos know how well Elitism works. It works out badly. Your best bet is to be a defender of the Constitution regardless of threats, pensions, etc. Pensions can all go away like farts in the wind, especially for you young pups

I say all this, not because I am against LEO and the rule of law, but because I am FOR it. I want each of you to look into your soul, and whenever you have a dealing with a member of the public, to treat it as an INDIVIDUAL incident, UNRELATED to all your other experiences. We are almost ALL people like you, and indeed, in most cases ARE YOU.

matrix056
05-15-2009, 5:39 AM
Obviously someone missed the point of the Columbine, North Hollywood (my bad) and VT shootings. Its called an "ACTIVE SHOOTER" situation. Yes, they raided civilian gun shops b/c the brass didnt think they would need rifles for patrol duties, how things have changed. You also missed the part about parolees having hi-cap mags, dont think that they dont have AK's, AR's, SKS' and what ever rifle you can think of. Do you think they bother to abide by the CA law of 10 rounds per mag.

Considering these are our clientele, I suppose we should have the proper equipment (and train with the proper equipment) to match our needs. If that includes having hi-cap mags for our off-duty gun, dont get mad, move to Nevada.

JagerTroop
05-15-2009, 6:11 AM
Obviously someone missed the point of the Columbine, North Hollywood (my bad) and VT shootings. Its called an "ACTIVE SHOOTER" situation. Yes, they raided civilian gun shops b/c the brass didnt think they would need rifles for patrol duties, how things have changed. You also missed the part about parolees having hi-cap mags, dont think that they dont have AK's, AR's, SKS' and what ever rifle you can think of. Do you think they bother to abide by the CA law of 10 rounds per mag.

Considering these are our clientele, I suppose we should have the proper equipment (and train with the proper equipment) to match our needs. If that includes having hi-cap mags for our off-duty gun, dont get mad, move to Nevada.

Oh. So instead of standing up for my rights, I should just tuck tail and run? I don't think so.

Also, maybe I missed the point you were trying to make about Columbine, VT, and N. Hollywood. Please elaborate. I thought I was clear when I said that hi caps played no part in those situations. If LEO was able to carry 10x as many rounds, would that have penetrated body armor? Would hi caps have somehow transported LEO to the scene faster in VT? What was the reason police didn't neutralize the Columbine kids? Lack of ammo capacity? These are horrible examples of the need for larger ammo capacity.

On a side note, I just had a funny thought. You initially said west hollywood... I was just picturing the residents of Boystown running around like prissy little commandoes holding pink AKs :rofl2:

PatriotnMore
05-15-2009, 7:11 AM
Jesus Bundo, I know we have had some differences of opinion, but your post(s) are right on. I have purposely stayed out of this for reasons of my own, and although some may think the wording harsh, your points are spot on.

Wow, what a thread. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to see if the other referenced thread was linked. I didn't need to get far to see where the "cop" was at (in the other thread), a pro-Obama, dis-arm everyone else guy. I know, maybe that's a leap from what he said, but I strongly suspect that's where he is at.

As to "I don't hear people crying about the military on Pendelton or the movie studios for having all the toys like select fire guns", I would say this: the military and the movie studios don't ever wrongfully hassle or beat citizens (and NEITHER do MOST cops - but the military and movie studios NEVER do). And they never bother people about stupid gun laws that are legal for THEM in their private life, as an LEO. Too many LEO's lose touch with normal people's reality, and only hang with other LEO's (talking LEO stuff), and their wives start hanging with LEO wives, and hence there comes a dis-connect with Joe Good Citizen.

Cops always tell us what they "need", like "hands on the wheel, turn on the dome light", etc. Let me tell you what the citizen needs, as I see it. We need cops with COURAGE against the politicians, the upper management that turn into liberal politicians (and not cowards who will do or say anything to protect their pension, because something like the Lautenburg Act can end your dreams immediately). Remember, these same politicians caused hundreds of thousands of you to be summarily fired because of the Lautenburg Act, sometimes with 30+ years since the "offense". Once the upper echelons that really run things decide to start a more rapid rotation of LEO's out of power, you will see how vulnerable you too are.

All I ask is that you see things from all sides, and realize that we are all human, with fatal frailties. Cops personal lives, as a class, are no more virtuous than Joe Public's, as a class. We are all against the thugs. Don't go against Joe Public's God-given right and instinst to protect himself, something you can't nearly always do for him (thanks for trying, though).

Consider how many murders there are a year in the US. While those aren't a LEO failure, because you have no crystal ball, they ARE a failure of the law and societal attitudes, when the law and societal attitudes lead, or force, people to be defenseless. True, many murders couldn't be prevented in any way, but many could have been if there was a moral gun-friendly super-majority of the public. You LEO's, who can CCW anywhere in America, probably don't realize what an incredible sense of fresh air and freedom it is for the rest of us to legally drive through Nevada, for instance, with a loaded gun in the car, fully legal.

Just imagine the harmony that would come between lawful CA gunowners and cops in CA if it were that way here. Look at all the ridiculous waste of time wasted here talking about how to get from point A to B with such and such gun (legal transport, etc.), by someone who is in all respects, a "fellow good guy".

The sick state of California literally grieves my soul

yzernie
05-15-2009, 8:43 AM
Wow, quite a bit of harshness going on here...from both directions. I think that nonsense needs to stop.

The bottom line (at least for me) is this, an LEO can have high caps and a non-LEO cannot. Like it or not, that is the law of the land right now. I would say that the overwhelming majority of law enforcement would like to see the good citizens armed AND would not mind the good citizens allowed CCW. The problem is not with the LEO's who possess high cap mags, the problem is with the morons in Sacramento who will not allow everyone to have them.

Until we all band together with the correct mindsets and work feverishly to change that law nothing will change. It seems to me the mentality is it is easier for some to sit behind the sanctity of a keyboard and talk crap than it is to actually take steps to change the law. Where is the NRA?

People can try to belittle me, degrade me, call me an elitist or try to humiliate me about my lawful right to carry high cap mags all they want to. I will guarantee you, without a doubt, if anyone had the ability to possess high caps and other could not, the could haves would possess them. Leo's are no different than that.

Let's quit this biznatch bickering nonsense and return to the intent of this sub-forum.

DLaw
05-15-2009, 9:05 AM
Again guys,this post was not about whether or not L/E should or should not be able to own high cap mags. The AW ban and high cap mag restrictions are not something I'm in agreement with.

My issue is with the owners attitude towards L/E...That's all..If he doesn't want to do business with Cal LEO's then I feel I should advise my fellow LEO's of his attitude towards us that's all...

JagerTroop
05-15-2009, 9:11 AM
The problem is not with the LEO's who possess high cap mags, the problem is with the morons in Sacramento who will not allow everyone to have them.

You are absolutely correct :thumbsup:

biglou
05-15-2009, 10:02 AM
Wow is the correct word. Yzernie you are spot on. LE can legally purchase hi cap mags in Cali. LE can purchase off list handguns, legally in Cali. So with my LE credential why wouldn't I ? Because Bundo can't ? I don't think it is right that ANY American (who's not a felon) should be restricted. To try and change it I vote. I write the law makers and try to get others to vote and educate them on the Constitution. I'm fighting the soft war now so my son can have his freedom. Bundo are you fighting the soft war ? As far as these school shootings go, it has nothing to do with hi cap mags. The Hollywood bank robbery/shootout, a head shot would have ended that quickly. It's hard to do though when a criminal is spraying you with lead. And if the Police do head shots the public would be putting them on charges. "Cops always tell us what they "need", like "hands on the wheel, turn on the dome light", etc." Hey Bundo, when I tell you these commands, yes commands, I'll also have my hand on my pistol or be at the low ready until I determine otherwise. You want citizens to drive around armed to help protect each other. We can't even a get co-operating witness or people to call 911. We'll just have people driving around saying "It's not my problem, protect yourself." Now i'm starting to rant like you. That's not what this forum is for. The OP is letting other CA LAW ENFORCEMENT consumers know about a vendors stance on hi caps. He is suggesting others to ban from doing business with him. It is up to each individual to make their own decision.

Matt C
05-15-2009, 10:27 AM
The bottom line (at least for me) is this, an LEO can have high caps and a non-LEO cannot. Like it or not, that is the law of the land right now.

That's not, strictly speaking, what the laws says at all.

pummel
05-15-2009, 3:43 PM
So Bundo, you think that the military never hassles citizens? Mind you, I say this a former soldier(who is proud of my service), but WTH are you talking about? You mean here in the States? If so then I say true, in the last few decades anyway. It wasn't that long ago that national gurard units were used to stamp out civil unrest, etc. But in our foreign conflicts, come on! Many, many terrible tragedies caused by some of our troops(many of which never made the news) but hey, they're not US citizens, so you don't need to include them in your "never" statement.
Also your mention of the El Monte PD incident was pure pot stirring, even if you put j/k at the end. When the shoe is on the other foot and all gun owners are looked at as evil because of the actions of a few bad apples, everyone on here rallies together, reaffirming that they are just as opposed to the bad guys actions as everyone else. As a Police Officer, I do the same when some yahoo abuses the authority he has. I would imagine most LEOs do.
Contrary to what some of you guys think, we're not sent out every shift with ticket and citizen harrassing quotas.
Anywho, we all have opinions. As far as the original topic, I understand that the seller has the right to refuse service to anyone, but there are ways to do things and ways not to. That's why I'll pass on ADCO from now on.

CaliTheKid
05-15-2009, 4:13 PM
That's not, strictly speaking, what the laws says at all.

Yep. Non-leo's can have hi-caps if they had them prior to the ban but thats what I think thats what Yzernie meant to infer. Non-leo's can't purchase fully assembled hi cap mags now would be another way to look at it.

cousinkix1953
05-15-2009, 10:58 PM
Some of those UNELECTED police chiefs are fascists who don't like the first amendment either. Sgt. Leroy Pyle might of been the first LEO to be punished for exercising his first amendment rights twenty years ago. Ask him what happens to rank and file LEOs, who oppose the anti-gun agenda of their corrupt bosses. They get raked over the coals just like Miss Kalifornia; because she doesn't follow the politically correct line either.

LEOs know the handgun roster is a fraud, or they wouldn't be buying so-called unsafe models either.

Mocking the assault weapons ban in public is a good way to wind up working the graveyard shift, even if somebody has lots of seniority. KRON visited a shooting range in the late 80s. A reporter interviewed several LEOs about assault rifles. They covered their badges and name tags. An effort was made not to show the shoulder patches of what agencies employed them. Those guys also wore ski masks and channel 4 digitally modified their voices. A dictator (police chief) doesn't lose a lot of sleep over trashing the Constitution.

There was even a fascist sheriff in Santa Cruz, who demanded that KSCO 1080 AM fire one of their talk show hosts over political disagreement. Thank God that he's retired.

Ron-Solo
05-17-2009, 12:54 PM
I agree with CavTrooper here. I get embarassed by some of our fellow officers who think they are God's gift to this earth. I don't respect them either. Because we share the same job should mean I should defend their every action?

Who ever said we were "Gods gift to the earth?" I said it takes a special kind of person to do the job we do, which is true. That dosen't mean we are better than anyone else.

By the way, the comparison of police medals to uniformed military service is laughable.

I never compared law enforcement to military service. You can't compare the two. Even MP service doesn't compare to law enforcement. They have similarities, but are no where close to the same thing. Someone said I'd probably wet myself if I ever got in a sticky situation. I listed the medals simply to indicate I'd been in my share (and probably someone else's) and haven't yet.

It sounds like you have done a lot in your police career. Congratulations (an I mean that sincerely).

Thanks

However, you and I do nothing nearly as brave or honorable as serve in a foreign war.

No disrespect to anyone who has served in the military (in war or not), but how do you come to that conclusion? You don't need war to demonstrate bravery or honor. I have seen courage deomonstrated many times by unarmed civilians in a gang infested neighborhood, pulling kids out of the line of fire in the middle of a gang shootout, or the neighbor who wakes up in the middle of the night and pulls his neighbor out of a burning apartment as we pull up. BTW, I do have some experience with the US Army in 1974-75, although I never saw combat.

Finally, I have disagreed with BWO on many issues. However, throwing the "anyone can get an MP costume" card out is silly. Please stop embarassing yourself.

My response was directed at his anti-law enforcement attitude and that a photo of him in an MP uniform did not make him law enforcement, nothing more.



Just getting tired of anti-law enforcement attitude in a Law Enforcement forum.

Ron-Solo
05-17-2009, 1:06 PM
You have a lot of forums that nobody can get into, why don't you just go there.

This is a LAW ENFORCEMENT FORUM isn't it?

We are for Constitutional Rights, and if you don't like it, why don't YOU just go away.

When was the last time you stepped into a dangerous situation to protect someone else's Constitutional Rights?

Guidelines for this forum:

Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.


And just to give you a look into the crystal ball, anyone against those rights will lose in the end. They will end up like the Gestapo, running as they they shed their uniforms. Don't be one of them.

Sorry, this one just doesn't make sense. Sounds like anti-law enforcement dribble to me.


Law Enforcement is the front line to defending everyone's Constitutional Rights.

MIB
05-21-2009, 11:28 PM
In the words of the great prophet, "Can't we all just get along?"

--Rodney King, 1992

Jonathan Doe
05-22-2009, 3:52 PM
Although the LEO's are technically peace officers of California 24/7, when they are off duty, they want to be just like anyone else, relax and enjoy life with the family. Maybe people should understand it.

I understand there are people who dislike LEO's and have difference in opinions. I believe it is a healthy thing. But, I am disturbed by occassional flat out hatred towards LE in general.

Matt C
05-22-2009, 4:40 PM
Law Enforcement is the front line to defending everyone's Constitutional Rights.

LOL, the funny thing is the reason I don't want to be a cop anymore is the fact that LEO are constantly VIOLATING people's constitutional rights which puts other LEOs in a very awkward position. And you are right this conversation does not belong on this forum, but you are the one bringing it up.

pcesar
05-22-2009, 4:52 PM
LOL, the funny thing is the reason I don't want to be a cop anymore is the fact that LEO are constantly VIOLATING people's constitutional rights which puts other LEOs in a very awkward position. And you are right this conversation does not belong on this forum, but you are the one bringing it up.

Itís okay if you cannot pass the test to become an officer you don't have to make up excuses. So what you are saying is that if LEO's are constantly violating peopleís right that you will do the same? If someone does not like something they usually do something about it. If you want to become an officer and uphold the law then do it. Just because there are some bad apples doesn't mean that you have to be one too.

I don't get mad because officers get to purchase AW or high cap mags, it's not their fault that the law makers have wrote those laws. I put the blame where itís supposed to go, to the law makers and the people that have voted in and keep them in power. Iím sure you know that there are more citizens in California than there are Peace Officers. Last time I checked, law makers still get elected by the people, not the Police.

Matt C
05-22-2009, 5:35 PM
Itís okay if you cannot pass the test to become an officer you don't have to make up excuses. So what you are saying is that if LEO's are constantly violating peopleís right that you will do the same? If someone does not like something they usually do something about it. If you want to become an officer and uphold the law then do it. Just because there are some bad apples doesn't mean that you have to be one too.


Are you in LE? Because honestly you don't know what you are talking about.

robsolo
05-22-2009, 5:39 PM
LOL, the funny thing is the reason I don't want to be a cop anymore is the fact that LEO are constantly VIOLATING people's constitutional rights which puts other LEOs in a very awkward position. And you are right this conversation does not belong on this forum, but you are the one bringing it up.

That's like saying I don't want to be a school teacher anymore because school teachers are constantly molesting their students.:rolleyes:

Matt C
05-22-2009, 6:11 PM
That's like saying I don't want to be a school teacher anymore because school teachers are constantly molesting their students.:rolleyes:

Not really, reporting a fellow teacher who is molesting students would be strongly encouraged by fellow teachers and administrators, whereas reporting a fellow officer "bending the rules" to "put away a bad guy" would likely not receive a very warm welcome.

nobody33
05-22-2009, 6:43 PM
Not really, reporting a fellow teacher who is molesting students would be strongly encouraged by fellow teachers and administrators, whereas reporting a fellow officer "bending the rules" to "put away a bad guy" would likely not receive a very warm welcome.

You realize The Shield is not real life right?

Matt C
05-22-2009, 7:06 PM
You realize The Shield is not real life right?

I realize that cops make up PC every day. Are you suggesting that they don't?

nobody33
05-22-2009, 7:22 PM
I realize that cops make up PC every day. Are you suggesting that they don't?

Probable cause? Yeah I am. I've never done it nor seen it done. I don't need to, nor does anyone else. As long as people fail to maintain their cars, refuse to put front plates on them, speed, and parole and probation dumps load of people onto my beat, I don't need to make stuff up. And I make double digit felony arrests every month.

Matt C
05-22-2009, 7:23 PM
Probable cause? Yeah I am. I've never done it nor seen it done. I don't need to, nor does anyone else. As long as people fail to maintain their cars, refuse to put front plates on them, speed, and parole and probation dumps load of people onto my beat, I don't need to make stuff up. And I make double digit felony arrests every month.

I'm not referring to PC for stops, although I know that occurs as well, if more rarely, but for searches. Unless you are implying that a lack of front plates is somehow PC for a vehicle search.

nobody33
05-22-2009, 7:35 PM
I'm not referring to PC for stops, although I know that occurs as well, if more rarely, but for searches. Unless you are implying that a lack of front plates is somehow PC for a vehicle search.

It's still BS.

Jonathan Doe
05-22-2009, 10:31 PM
I'm not referring to PC for stops, although I know that occurs as well, if more rarely, but for searches. Unless you are implying that a lack of front plates is somehow PC for a vehicle search.

A lot of times, the traffic stop leads to PC to further investigation of the crimes, ie. DUI, Drugs, guns, etc. Please do not lump all LEO's as bad ones.

Ron-Solo
05-25-2009, 12:00 AM
I realize that cops make up PC every day. Are you suggesting that they don't?

Where do you get your information to support your claim?

Matt C
05-25-2009, 12:06 AM
A lot of times, the traffic stop leads to PC to further investigation of the crimes, ie. DUI, Drugs, guns, etc. Please do not lump all LEO's as bad ones.

Guns are a crime? Is it a crime to possess guns? If you see a gun what do you do? What is your standard procedure? What about most of the cops you work with, what would they do if they saw a gun in a car? I'm not trying to say all cops are "bad" but it getting to the point where it's hard to tell the difference between good and bad, except for the extremes on both ends of the spectrum.

Where do you get your information to support your claim?

http://tinyurl.com/qac8a2

Jonathan Doe
05-25-2009, 7:46 AM
Carrying a concealed and loaded firearm on a person is a violation of a California Penal Code last time I checked.

FLIGHT762
05-25-2009, 8:13 AM
Guns are a crime? Is it a crime to possess guns? If you see a gun what do you do? What is your standard procedure? What about most of the cops you work with, what would they do if they saw a gun in a car? I'm not trying to say all cops are "bad" but it getting to the point where it's hard to tell the difference between good and bad, except for the extremes on both ends of the spectrum.



http://tinyurl.com/qac8a2

Seeing a gun in a car, in plain view(or if the person says they have a gun) gives an officer Probable Cause to check the gun to see if it is loaded. 12031 of the penal code gives the officer the cause to check it. Nearly all cities have ordinances that cover prohibited areas to discharge a gun. If you can't discharge the gun legally in the area of the contact, the gun can be checked. If the owner refuses or interferes with the officer for the inspection, they can be arrested under the 12031 section. During the inspection, the serial number of the gun can be checked in AFS to see if it is stolen. The person in possession of the gun can be checked to see if he/she is a convicted felon and should be in possession of the gun. There are many laws in checking a gun. If it is an AW. Is it registered? Has it been illegally modified illegally, Sawed off? Is the gun an OLL? Does it have the required BB and 10 rd. magazine? Serial number filed off?

I've checked many guns, some check out fine and the owner is sent on their way, other times you may have found a felon in possession of a gun and they are arrested. There are many gun laws. The mere possession of a gun in a car in a city can give Officers probable cause which leads to legal searches and other crimes.

When I go hunting, I've been checked by a Game Warden. Just me being out hunting gives him/her P.C. to check to see if I'm properly licensed. If I'm hunting with a shotgun, The Warden checks to see if my magazine will hold more than two rounds. If it does, I get a citation. The Warden usually doesn't check the gun in AFS nor check to see if I can possess a gun, but they could. Since I'm in an area that I can discharge a gun, there is no P.C. to check it to see it it is loaded, but the Warden has P.C. to check me since I'm hunting.

Officers are trained in probable cause. Criminal cases are made on proper probable cause. Improper or illegal searches will result in the dismissing of charges. Officers that do improper searches are subject to civil or Federal charges (violation of civil rights). An officer can make a good faith error or mistake, but any Officer that knowingly does illegal searches/stops will find them being terminated. Where I worked, that is not tolerated. You can and will be fired for it, especially for LYING.

In the arrests I've made, I always made a point of having a case that is properly investigated based on facts , not made up P.C. Reputation is everything, with your fellow Officers, supervisors, District Attorney's office and yes, the citizens in the city you work in.

Sometimes in the field things happen so fast, there isn't time to think. If probable cause isn't there, there are no charges filed.

I can't watch a lot of the made for T V cop shows due to Hollywood having their characters doing so much improper police practices.

What a lot of people don't understand is the Police Officer has to follow guidelines within the law. If the officer is wrong or flagrantly violates someones civil rights, there is a penalty to pay. The perceived misconduct we see on T V that gets so much attention is such a small percentage of what Officers do. The legal system will decide if the officer was wrong. When I see any of this on T V, I will reserve judgement until all the facts are presented. There are bad Cops out there. I believe the system works most of the time.

What some citizens don't understand is when contacted by the police, they should do what they are asked. If the officer is wrong there will be a penalty to pay. I've had a few people I've contacted that decided to be a sidewalk lawyer and ended up in the back of a patrol car being charged with interfering/delaying an officer on a simple traffic stop over a traffic ticket.

I was fortunate to work at an agency where there was very good supervision and there was little misconduct.

Ron-Solo
05-25-2009, 9:10 AM
I realize that cops make up PC every day. Are you suggesting that they don't?

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Your link to a google search doesn't support your claim that cops make up their P/C every day. That statement is nothing but anti-law enforcement B/S, which seems to be the only thing you can bring to the table.

I won't say there is no such thing as police misconduct, be cause police are human. Most people don't realize, we clean our own house and take care of the problem when it is discovered.

Your blanket statement is nothing more than your continuation of your anti-law enforcement views. You can say you are pro-law enforcement all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Like I said before, why don't you go hang out in something other than a law enforcement forum.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 9:34 AM
That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Your link to a google search doesn't support your claim that cops make up their P/C every day. That statement is nothing but anti-law enforcement B/S, which seems to be the only thing you can bring to the table.

I won't say there is no such thing as police misconduct, be cause police are human. Most people don't realize, we clean our own house and take care of the problem when it is discovered.

Your blanket statement is nothing more than your continuation of your anti-law enforcement views. You can say you are pro-law enforcement all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Like I said before, why don't you go hang out in something other than a law enforcement forum.

And you can say it doesn't happen all you want, but I know it does.

Jonathan Doe
05-25-2009, 9:54 AM
And you can say it doesn't happen all you want, but I know it does.

I am curious to know where the information comes from. Is it hearsay?

Matt C
05-25-2009, 10:03 AM
I am curious to know where the information comes from. Is it hearsay?

Hearsay is a legal term that describes statements made outside of court or other judicial proceedings. I don't think it really applies to this discussion but you can read plenty of court transcripts where falsified PC is discussed, just visit your local law library.

But let's take this statement for example:

The person in possession of the gun can be checked to see if he/she is a convicted felon and should be in possession of the gun.

made by a cop on this forum, who implies that if he sees a gun he has PC to start investigation a person to see if they are a felon. This is incorrect and every time he does it he is violating that person's 4th Amendment rights. In fact, every time you conduct a loaded check you are probably violating someone's rights (although we unfortunately do not yet have case law to confirm this).

That said, I'm sure FLIGHT762 is one of the "good guys", but the problem IMO is a form of peer pressure.

Anyways, this has gone way off topic, if you guys want to continue this discussion let's make a new thread in a more appropriate forum.

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 10:50 AM
Cops don't need PC to start an investigation. They need what's called Reasonable Suspicion. You should take your own advice and spend a little more time in the law library if you are going to provide "legal information".

Matt C
05-25-2009, 12:14 PM
Cops don't need PC to start an investigation. They need what's called Reasonable Suspicion. You should take your own advice and spend a little more time in the law library if you are going to provide "legal information".

So you get reasonable suspicion that a crime is, has been, or is about to be commited solely from the fact that a person possesses a firearm huh? Thanks for proving my point.

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Gimme a break. You misspoke and are now trying to redirect and cover. Just man up and admit it.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Gimme a break. You misspoke and are now trying to redirect and cover. Just man up and admit it.

I did nothing of the sort. You can start an investigation with PC or RS (in a much more limited way, that would NOT include a full search of the vehicle), but you don't get either from the solitary fact that a person has a gun. You don't waive your 4th amendment rights by exercising your 2nd amendment rights.

ETA: This is the quote I was referring to (emphasis added) The mere possession of a gun in a car in a city can give Officers probable cause which leads to legal searches and other crimes.

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Still just spinning, deflecting etc etc. But moving on.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 1:00 PM
Still just spinning, deflecting etc etc. But moving on.

What are you talking about exactly? Where did I misspeak? The poster stated "mere possession of a gun in a car in a city can give Officers probable cause" and I stated "a cop on this forum, who implies that if he sees a gun he has PC".

I didn't misspeak at all, investigation in this case also included searches (which I understood to be beyond a terry stop search) which WOULD need PC, but in any case based on the circumstances described the officer did not even have RS.

I guess I could amend my original statement from "cops make up PC" to "cops make up PC and RS" but I think the point has already been made.

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 1:17 PM
LOL-- three replies and three totally different response the original post of mine which mearly stated that cops don't need PC to stop-- they just need RS.

The normal nomenclature in LE and the courts is "RS" when articulating contacts and PC when articulating arrests. It is what it is-- learn, and move on.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 1:41 PM
LOL-- three replies and three totally different response the original post of mine which mearly stated that cops don't need PC to stop-- they just need RS.

The normal nomenclature in LE and the courts is "RS" when articulating contacts and PC when articulating arrests. It is what it is-- learn, and move on.

Now you are just being a troll. You still have not stated where I misspoke. I know what PC is and I know what RS is. I know when each one is needed. You can stop with RS but the stop cannot go on forever and you cannot search all parts of the vehicle. A firearm by itself is not PC or RS. An arrest may occur long before you slap the cuffs on somebody.

yzernie
05-25-2009, 1:54 PM
the reason I don't want to be a cop anymore.....
HUH??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://b4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00316/49/45/316745494_l.jpg

Matt C
05-25-2009, 2:23 PM
HUH??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Do you want to go ahead and state whatever it is you are implying now?

yzernie
05-25-2009, 2:37 PM
Do you want to go ahead and state whatever it is you are implying now?
Dude, it was a joke. Lighten the heck up a bit. :thumbsup:

Matt C
05-25-2009, 2:45 PM
Dude, it was a joke. Lighten the heck up a bit. :thumbsup:

I'm in a bad mood lol. :mad::mad::mad::mad: ;)

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 3:14 PM
Now you are just being a troll. ...

Classic.:rolleyes:

Matt C
05-25-2009, 3:21 PM
Classic.:rolleyes:

And you still can't tell me where I said anything that was not true. :troll:

deleted by PC police
05-25-2009, 4:38 PM
+1 for ADCO. As far as Anti-Cop goes nothing could make someone more anti-cop than reading some of the elitist crap in this thread.

Ron-Solo
05-25-2009, 9:27 PM
And you can say it doesn't happen all you want, but I know it does.

And I KNOW there is a 'Pot 'o Gold' at the end of the rainbow, but that doesn't mean it is so.....


Misconduct does happen, since we fire people every year for it, but your insinuation that every cop does it is way out of line.

You really don't have a clue concerning the reality of law enforcement because you have not really been there. No disrespect to our brothers in the MP's, but it isn't the same job. Similarities, but not the same.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 9:38 PM
Misconduct does happen, since we fire people every year for it, but your insinuation that every cop does it is way out of line.

Don't put words in my mouth, I did not say or insinuate that, and I don't believe it.


You really don't have a clue concerning the reality of law enforcement because you have not really been there. No disrespect to our brothers in the MP's, but it isn't the same job. Similarities, but not the same.

OK, I'll bite, what is the difference exactly?

Ron-Solo
05-25-2009, 9:46 PM
Don't put words in my mouth, I did not say or insinuate that, and I don't believe it.

Right here:

And you can say it doesn't happen all you want, but I know it does.



OK, I'll bite, what is the difference exactly?

Like I said, if you have to ask, you really don't have a clue.

Matt C
05-25-2009, 10:17 PM
Like I said, if you have to ask, you really don't have a clue.

:rolleyes: That's what I thought.

pcesar
05-26-2009, 12:01 AM
I wonder what ADCO's stand was when the federal assault weapon ban was in affect? Would he well high capacity magazines to LEO's? Same question regarding Barrett. Barrett is a god to many because he refused to service any California Law Enforcement agency rifles. I wonder if he will still refuse to sell his rifles to the government if there ever is another federal assault weapon ban.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 9:39 AM
+1 for ADCO. As far as Anti-Cop goes nothing could make someone more anti-cop than reading some of the elitist crap in this thread.

AGREED!

Quake0
06-02-2009, 11:43 PM
And I KNOW there is a 'Pot 'o Gold' at the end of the rainbow, but that doesn't mean it is so.....


Misconduct does happen, since we fire people every year for it, but your insinuation that every cop does it is way out of line.

You really don't have a clue concerning the reality of law enforcement because you have not really been there. No disrespect to our brothers in the MP's, but it isn't the same job. Similarities, but not the same.

I really want to hear your explanation how they are not the same. Please give an explanation, I am not trying to be a smart ***. I just think your comment with out detail may be trivial. So explain to every one in detail why they are not the same job!

robsolo
06-03-2009, 7:32 AM
I really want to hear your explanation how they are not the same. Please give an explanation, I am not trying to be a smart ***. I just think your comment with out detail may be trivial. So explain to every one in detail why they are not the same job!

The type of calls an MP will get are not the same calls civilian officers get. Armed 211s, 10851s, 273.5s, 288s, 187s, 203s, vehicle pursuits, foot pursuits, hot stops, on and on and on.

Jonathan Doe
06-03-2009, 9:30 AM
Do MP's gather at the Winchells also?:D

Honestly, for my 4 years on the street, I only stopped by the Winchells twice. And, I didn't drink coffee, but got hot chocolate.

CavTrooper
06-03-2009, 9:40 AM
The type of calls an MP will get are not the same calls civilian officers get. Armed 211s, 10851s, 273.5s, 288s, 187s, 203s, vehicle pursuits, foot pursuits, hot stops, on and on and on.

Sorry brother, you are wrong. MPs are policing the Military base which is a small city unto itself. Just about every kind of crime that occurs off post will occur on post. If you can recall the Ft Bragg sniper, the recent shooter at an Army post in Texas and so on. Id say one of the bigger differences is that MPs are dealing with well trained warriors who have BTDT, where Civilian Police are mostly dealing with untrained thugs.

SVT-40
06-03-2009, 4:50 PM
I think there is a point to be made that such laws only foster the attitude that many LEOs have where they think they are superior in some way to the average person on the street.

This is just silly. Laws do not foster any attitudes. INDIVIDUALS foster attitudes.

BWO do you really think "many" LEO's believe they are superior to the average Joe simply because they are allowed High caps and AW's??

Define "many", in the context to the thousands of LEO's serving in California.

How many have you actually talked to and said they were "superior"? simply because they could have these items??

In reality you put your own prejudice on to LEO's. It's you who have a grudge simply because you by law are not allowed to purchase these items.

I've never heard one single LEO say that they were superior to any citizen simply because they could have these items. In fact most LEO's could care less about High caps and AW's since most don't care about firearms to begin with.

So stop bashing LEO's because of their exemption to these laws. It's futile and frankly a waste of your time. It makes you sound like you are crying sour grapes.

If you want to actually do something that's great, Lobby politicians, picket city hall or do what ever you can to actually make some changes. Just quit blaming the average Cop for their exemption.

Remember without the LEO exemption to the stupid DOJ handgun list many California shooters would not be able to buy these off list handguns from LEO's via the PPT process.

Ron-Solo
06-03-2009, 5:25 PM
Sorry brother, you are wrong. MPs are policing the Military base which is a small city unto itself. Just about every kind of crime that occurs off post will occur on post. If you can recall the Ft Bragg sniper, the recent shooter at an Army post in Texas and so on. Id say one of the bigger differences is that MPs are dealing with well trained warriors who have BTDT, where Civilian Police are mostly dealing with untrained thugs.

I never said that MP's weren't policing the military bases. Yes, they are a small city and have their problems, but you can't compare base housing to Nickerson Gardens in South Central where everyone has a gun AND hates cops. Gangsters that will kill you for the pocket change and not think twice about it. As far as well trained warriors, you'll find many of them in the streets of our urban areas, it just isn't as formalized and they wear a different kind of uniform. They know how to kill and ambush well enough on their own.

Yes, many military are highly trained warriors who have BTDT, but it is a small minority that cause problems. The vast majority are men & women who understand honor and live with it in thier daily lives. When Long Beach Naval Station was in full operation I worked alongside of many SPs on some joint operations. The UCMJ gives them a lot more leverage of military personnel than we have over the general public.

They are both important jobs, and share some similarities, but they are not the same.

A detailed list should not be necessary for anyone who has experienced either profession. As I said in my previous post, I have the utmost respect for the MP/SP profession.

It's like comparing the old State Police to the CHP. One guarded state buildings, the other patrolled the highways. There is a potential for lots of bad things to happen at both, but in reality the CHP had a much more dangerous job (with some very specific exceptions) than the State Police.

Jonathan Doe
06-03-2009, 6:57 PM
I have never felt I was superior to anyone. I just reported for duty and did my job as I was trained, educated and experienced. I felt greatful that I could buy extra "hi cap" magazines, so I can have a few more than 3 that the dept issued. After work, I go home and try to enjoy the life I have with my family.

CavTrooper
06-03-2009, 8:13 PM
....

....

Is this the same poster with different accounts? You two seem two seem to be on the same page and certainly show up to support the others opinion.

Hmmmm....

CavTrooper
06-03-2009, 8:17 PM
Remember without the LEO exemption to the stupid DOJ handgun list many California shooters would not be able to buy these off list handguns from LEO's via the PPT process.

Do you have any evidence hat this actually occurs? From what I have seen (theres an example right here on this board), LEOs tend to only sell their off roster guns to other LEOs. In fact, Id be interested to know if anyone can actually prove that an LEO has made a PPT to anyone other than another LEO for any type of frearm.

I belive the "LEOs PPTing off roster guns" is a pure myth.

scootergmc
06-03-2009, 8:45 PM
Do you have any evidence hat this actually occurs? From what I have seen (theres an example right here on this board), LEOs tend to only sell their off roster guns to other LEOs. In fact, Id be interested to know if anyone can actually prove that an LEO has made a PPT to anyone other than another LEO for any type of frearm.

I belive the "LEOs PPTing off roster guns" is a pure myth.

Let me get this right, and I'm a little concerned, Cav- have you been drinking tonight? :eek: Nevertheless, are you saying you don't believe an LEO has ever PPT'd an off-list handgun to a person who would otherwise without the PPT be ineligible to purchase the same gun?

CavTrooper
06-03-2009, 8:57 PM
Let me get this right, and I'm a little concerned, Cav- have you been drinking tonight? :eek: Nevertheless, are you saying you don't believe an LEO has ever PPT'd an off-list handgun to a person who would otherwise without the PPT be ineligible to purchase the same gun?

Pretty much.

Im saying that occurence is most likely so rare, its not even worth mentioning as a "benefit" of allowing LEOs to buy off roster guns.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

scootergmc
06-03-2009, 9:05 PM
Pretty much.

Im saying that occurence is most likely so rare, its not even worth mentioning as a "benefit" of allowing LEOs to buy off roster guns.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Now I see. Your statement of absolutes is what drew me in. I understand your clarification. Do I see the exemption as a PPT benefit for the non-leo citizenry? Not really. Do the PPT transfers happen between LEOs and otherwise non-off-list-eligible persons? Yes.

Ron-Solo
06-03-2009, 9:42 PM
Is this the same poster with different accounts? You two seem two seem to be on the same page and certainly show up to support the others opinion.

Hmmmm....

Nope. I don't have any clue who this person is.

I'm up front an honest with my opinions, whether you agree with them or not.

Ron

yzernie
06-03-2009, 9:48 PM
Do you have any evidence hat this actually occurs? From what I have seen (theres an example right here on this board), LEOs tend to only sell their off roster guns to other LEOs. In fact, Id be interested to know if anyone can actually prove that an LEO has made a PPT to anyone other than another LEO for any type of frearm.

I belive the "LEOs PPTing off roster guns" is a pure myth.
If you are referring to me please let me clarify for you. In addition to being a full time 30+ year LEO, I am also an FFL who has a side business of selling firearms and accessories. Unfortunately, there are also some guns I buy and list for sale but due to the Cali Approved Handgun Roster, I can only sell them to LEOs. I also buy and sell plenty of on the list guns to non-LEOs. I don't make the laws or have anything to do with the compiling of the Roster and I can tell you with the utmost certainty and with first hand information, LEOs buy more on roster handguns than off roster guns.

For your comment about the myth. Since the list has come out I have sold a couple of my personal off list guns to a non-LEO via PPT. Sorry to blow your myth expertise but your comment about not PPTing off list guns just don't hold water.

Ron-Solo
06-03-2009, 9:59 PM
Do you have any evidence hat this actually occurs? From what I have seen (theres an example right here on this board), LEOs tend to only sell their off roster guns to other LEOs. In fact, Id be interested to know if anyone can actually prove that an LEO has made a PPT to anyone other than another LEO for any type of frearm.

I belive the "LEOs PPTing off roster guns" is a pure myth.

Can you back this up with any facts? I doubt it. You are quick to jump to Anti-LEO conclusions.

Most LEOs sell to other LEOs, unless it is someone they know personally, because they worry about guns falling into the wrong hands. We are cautious by nature. I don't sell many guns, but recently sold an older Ruger Security Six that wasn't on the list to a non-LEO. BUT, that person was referred to me by a mutual (non-LEO) friend that I'd trust with my life.

I don't care if law abiding people have guns. I just don't want to see a gun I sold end up being used in a crime against someone. I think most of us feel that way, LEO and non-LEO, but I believe we are more conscious of it on average. I realize there is no way to guarantee the gun won't fall into the wrong hands, but I want to make sure I've done everything I could.

Most of us don't agree with the AW ban, HiCap regs, or the approved handgun list. We only have one vote, just like everyone else.

Stop thinking all LEOs are the enemy in the 2A arena, life will be better for everyone.

Ron-Solo
06-03-2009, 10:10 PM
Is this the same poster with different accounts? You two seem two seem to be on the same page and certainly show up to support the others opinion.

Hmmmm....

Once again, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER?

You seem to spend most of your time in this forum attacking and insulting law enforcement officers.

I'm sure a moderator can check the IP addresses or e-mails and verify they are not the same person.

There are other people who share your opinion, but nobody seems to jump to the conclusion that it is one person posing as two.

Usually, in my 30+ years of law enforcement, guilty people are quick to cast suspicion on others to draw it away from their own misconduct.


Ron, not Rob

robsolo
06-03-2009, 10:17 PM
Just a brother from another mother perhaps...

scootergmc
06-03-2009, 10:27 PM
Dang guys, just let it go.

The subheading under this forum is "chat, kibitz, and relax." Oh yeah, and it say something about "CIVIL."

Perhaps this should be moved to the off-topic area to fall in line with other LEO threads...

SVT-40
06-03-2009, 11:02 PM
Do you have any evidence hat this actually occurs? From what I have seen (theres an example right here on this board), LEOs tend to only sell their off roster guns to other LEOs. In fact, Id be interested to know if anyone can actually prove that an LEO has made a PPT to anyone other than another LEO for any type of frearm.

I belive the "LEOs PPTing off roster guns" is a pure myth.

Just because you "personally" believe it's a myth does not make it so. I have in the last month personally PPT'd a Ruger LCP at the shop I work at between a LEO and a "regular Joe". And Ive talked with other LEO's who have sold their off list handguns to other "joe's"

CavTrooper, do you have to be hit by a brick to know it hurts? Use your head. I'm sure you have some life experience, but to state a belief as a fact is, well ignorant.

Open your eyes guys. The street cops are not your enemy. It's the Chiefs and sheriff's who are to blame. By blaming street cops you are actually falling into a common trap used by many politicians.

It's the "divide and conquer" theory.

The average LEO has no power to change laws. In fact he is prohibited from acting in a political way when on duty. Off duty he can do as he pleases on duty ANY political speach will get him in trouble.

Think of it this way. Are you critical of our service men because of political decisions made by their command authority? I doubt it. Well show LEO's the same respect. You may find you have more support than you know!

Just stop the petty jealousy over high caps, AW's and off list handguns. Life is too good to dwell on these issues. We have more in common than we have differences if you care to take a close look.:)

CavTrooper
06-03-2009, 11:43 PM
If you are referring to me please let me clarify for you. In addition to being a full time 30+ year LEO, I am also an FFL...

This makes sense and I understand your reason.

Can you back this up with any facts? I doubt it. You are quick to jump to Anti-LEO conclusions.

...

Most of us don't agree with the AW ban, HiCap regs, or the approved handgun list. We only have one vote, just like everyone else.

Stop thinking all LEOs are the enemy in the 2A arena, life will be better for everyone.

Its an opinion fella, theres a difference between stating an opinion and stating a fact.

You are the one who stated that you agree with AW registration arent you? So how much of a friend of the 2A could you be?

Once again, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER?

You seem to spend most of your time in this forum attacking and insulting law enforcement officers.

I'm sure a moderator can check the IP addresses or e-mails and verify they are not the same person.

There are other people who share your opinion, but nobody seems to jump to the conclusion that it is one person posing as two.

Usually, in my 30+ years of law enforcement, guilty people are quick to cast suspicion on others to draw it away from their own misconduct.


Ron, not Rob

Quick to get defensive are we? ya know, you could probably do a whole lot better changing my opinion if you were less combatative and were able to demonstrate a little tact.

Im not attacking anyone, Im interacting with LEOs here to see if maybe my perspective has been off and unjustifed, so far, I think Im pretty much spot on.

Now you wanna try and accuse me of being a bad guy? Ok big guy, whos casting suspicions now?

Just because you "personally" believe it's a myth does not make it so. I have in the last month personally PPT'd a Ruger LCP at the shop I work at between a LEO and a "regular Joe". And Ive talked with other LEO's who have sold their off list handguns to other "joe's"

CavTrooper, do you have to be hit by a brick to know it hurts? Use your head. I'm sure you have some life experience, but to state a belief as a fact is, well ignorant.

Open your eyes guys. The street cops are not your enemy. It's the Chiefs and sheriff's who are to blame. By blaming street cops you are actually falling into a common trap used by many politicians.

It's the "divide and conquer" theory.

The average LEO has no power to change laws. In fact he is prohibited from acting in a political way when on duty. Off duty he can do as he pleases on duty ANY political speach will get him in trouble.

Think of it this way. Are you critical of our service men because of political decisions made by their command authority? I doubt it. Well show LEO's the same respect. You may find you have more support than you know!

Just stop the petty jealousy over high caps, AW's and off list handguns. Life is too good to dwell on these issues. We have more in common than we have differences if you care to take a close look.:)

Whos stating facts? Im stating my opinion.

Actually, I do see street cops as the enemy, They are the footsoldiers out on the front lines, enforcing the unconstitutional laws, violating citizens rights and hiding behind the badge when they get called on it. Ive seen some pretty outrageous statements being made here by the LEOs on this forum, justifying criminal behavior by other LEOs, its disgusting.

LEOs do have the power to effect change, stop supporting the bad laws, period. Every time an anti gun bill comes up, you can guarantee that LE has signed on a supporter, and unless Im mistaken, thats you. Try and equate yourselves with Servicemembers, gimme a break. Servicemembers are required to challenge illegal orders, they are obligated to protect and defend the Constitution, not trample it under the color of authority. A man is just a man and commands no respect because of his position, Ill show LEOs respect, when they earn it, until then they get nothing but contempt from me.

Im sorry guy, but I hold no jealousy for LEOs and their ill gotten rewards for compromising with the the enemies of the Constitution. I dont need to covet what LEOs have, I have mine and intend to keep and defend it.

Its amusing that you would throw that in there, like jealousy has anything to do with it. This about equal treatment under the law and the abuse of power. This is about people who compromise their values and integrity to prop up power grabbing politicians and earn a little kickback for doing so. This is about those who abuse the system and their authority, and as long as the laws have no effect on them, have no inclination to change it.

LEOs are not any more special then any other person on street. Their lives are not inherently more valuable, their jobs are not any more important. Yet in this state, their masters have seen fit to throw them a few more scraps as long as they keep toeing the line and keep the riff-raff in check.

There will come a time when every man is held accountable for his actions, question for you is, do you fear it or welcome it?

cousinkix1953
06-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Or maybe he is anti-doublestandard/special privileges.
If that's his message, then I support this dealer completely. Whats next; off-roster handguns, which our corrupt rulers claim are too dangerous for ordinary citizens to own? Why sell the forbidden fruits to anybody, when these laws are based upon LIES?

Ron-Solo
06-04-2009, 8:45 AM
This makes sense and I understand your reason.



Its an opinion fella, theres a difference between stating an opinion and stating a fact.

You state your opinions as if they were fact.

You are the one who stated that you agree with AW registration arent you? So how much of a friend of the 2A could you be?

You are mistaken. I do not support the AW registration. My other post stated that there is seldom crime committed with lawfully possessed AWs and machine guns. I was stating the lesser of two evils that the state should at least allow the purchase and registration of AWs to law abiding citizens life most of the country with registered machine guns. Once again, people who go to the effort to obtain a registered MG are not the type to go out an commit crimes. In my opinion, the same should hold true for people that would go thru the efforts to register an AW. The previous AW registrations support this theory. It's not as good as no registration, but it is better than we have now. Until we can change the law, it would be an improvement in my opinion.[/I]

I defend everyone's Constutional rights every day, including ALL of the amendments.




Quick to get defensive are we? ya know, you could probably do a whole lot better changing my opinion if you were less combatative and were able to demonstrate a little tact.

You accuse me of having two log-in identities and then get upset when I defend myself from your attack on my integrity.

Im not attacking anyone, Im interacting with LEOs here to see if maybe my perspective has been off and unjustifed, so far, I think Im pretty much spot on.

[I]Really, your posts don't seem to support that theory.


Now you wanna try and accuse me of being a bad guy? Ok big guy, whos casting suspicions now?


Whos stating facts? Im stating my opinion.

Actually, I do see street cops as the enemy, They are the footsoldiers out on the front lines, enforcing the unconstitutional laws, violating citizens rights and hiding behind the badge when they get called on it.

Your words, not mine.


Try and equate yourselves with Servicemembers, gimme a break. Servicemembers are required to challenge illegal orders, they are obligated to protect and defend the Constitution, not trample it under the color of authority.

We take the same oath. Unfortunately, there are laws we disagree with, but have been passed by the legislature and upheld by the courts as Constutional. While it may be your opinion that a law is unconstutional, I am required to enforce it until the courts say otherwise. That is different from challenging illegal orders.


A man is just a man and commands no respect because of his position, Ill show LEOs respect, when they earn it, until then they get nothing but contempt from me.

I'm sorry you have such a jaded outlook against law enforcement. I'm slightly familiar with your case and understand why you might feel that way, but if you project that attitude everytime you have a law enforcement contact, any time there is something that is left to the discreation of the officer, you're going to come out on the short end of the stick because of the negative attitude.

Im sorry guy, but I hold no jealousy for LEOs and their ill gotten rewards for compromising with the the enemies of the Constitution. I dont need to covet what LEOs have, I have mine and intend to keep and defend it.

Again, in my opinion, more anti-law enforcement dribble that isn't backed up by fact.


Its amusing that you would throw that in there, like jealousy has anything to do with it. This about equal treatment under the law and the abuse of power. This is about people who compromise their values and integrity to prop up power grabbing politicians and earn a little kickback for doing so. This is about those who abuse the system and their authority, and as long as the laws have no effect on them, have no inclination to change it.

LEOs are not any more special then any other person on street. Their lives are not inherently more valuable, their jobs are not any more important. Yet in this state, their masters have seen fit to throw them a few more scraps as long as they keep toeing the line and keep the riff-raff in check.

Jealousy, sour grapes, whatever you want to call it. Other than my salary, I have never gained personally from any enforcement action I have taken in my 30 year career. Those who abuse the system pay the price. Look at the Sheriff of Orange County. In my opinion, he got what he deserved and ANY other law enforcement officer who does the same thing, should pay the price also.

There will come a time when every man is held accountable for his actions, question for you is, do you fear it or welcome it?

I am held accountable for my actions every day. When the final judgement comes, I will hold my head up high and proud.



A reminder, this is a LAW ENFORCEMENT forum, for Law Enforcement Officers. Your political opinions belong in the political forum, not here. If you want to ask a civil question, without going into your "I hate the cops" and "everything is Unconstutional" viewpoint, I will be happy to answer your question. The 2nd Amendment has been, and will continue to be debated for years. It will change based on rulings of the court. Hopefully it will be for the better.

CavTrooper
06-04-2009, 9:39 AM
A reminder, this is a LAW ENFORCEMENT forum, for Law Enforcement Officers. Your political opinions belong in the political forum, not here. If you want to ask a civil question, without going into your "I hate the cops" and "everything is Unconstutional" viewpoint, I will be happy to answer your question..

Until the powers that be deem fit to remove me or my access to this forum, I will continue to ask my questions, and state my viewpoints, even if they make you uncomfortable. This isnt the street, this is the internet, you have no authority here.

The 2nd Amendment has been, and will continue to be debated for years. It will change based on rulings of the court. Hopefully it will be for the better.

So until then, you are "just following orders"?

I'm sorry you have such a jaded outlook against law enforcement.

I dont have a negative view of ALL LE, just most CA LEOs and those outside this state who have no respect for the Constitution and the Citizens of this Country.

I'm slightly familiar with your case and understand why you might feel that way,

WTF are you talking about?!

There is no "case" for you to be familiar with!

Is this some sort of veiled threat or attempt at intimidation?

but if you project that attitude everytime you have a law enforcement contact, any time there is something that is left to the discreation of the officer, you're going to come out on the short end of the stick because of the negative attitude..

I am always civil when I come into contact with LE. I recognize that this individual has been given the power to take away my freedom and take my life with little to no justification. Since I have been disarmed by the politicians and their enforcers, I have no means with which to defend myself, so I must use my words and my mind to enable me to walk away from LE contact with my life and my liberty intact. However, WTF does attitude have to do with anything? Having a bad attitude is not against the law is it? Are you telling me now that having a bad attitude with LE is justification for them to take some sort of action against me regardless of whether I have broken any laws or not? This is the attitude Im talking about. Make no mention of the LAW that LEOs are supposed to be following/enforcing, instead base it all on assumptions and attitude.... and you wonder why some people are suspicious of and distrustful of LE.

Matt C
06-04-2009, 9:41 AM
WTF are you talking about?!

There is no "case" for you to be familiar with!

Is this some sort of veiled threat or attempt at intimidation?


I think he might be confusing you with me.

CavTrooper
06-04-2009, 10:05 AM
I think he might be confusing you with me.

Dang, Ive never been so insulted! :eek: ;)

I kid! :thumbsup:

Jonathan Doe
06-04-2009, 10:32 AM
Whether someone likes or dislikes LEO or LE agency is their business.

But, if there is a law, and you don't like it...What are you gonna do? Just break the law? I don't want to drive 65MPH, and I don't like the speed law. I like to drive 90+ MPH. A cop gives me a ticket. Are they wrong? Are they suppose not enforce the law in existance?

People elect the politicians. They legislate a law. You don't like it. What do you do? Vote them out? Change something?

I don't like restrictions on firearms. Do I just go buy any guns and parts I want?

I like full auto guns. I don't like NFA and GCA of 1968. Do I just get a automatic weapon anyways? A cop sees you shoot an auto weapon at the range or somewhere. Does he supposed to look the other way?


What can we do about the current law that we don't like? I am here in Miami and looking at some guns that we cannot have in CA. What can I do?

Ron-Solo
06-04-2009, 10:44 AM
WTF are you talking about?!

There is no "case" for you to be familiar with!

Is this some sort of veiled threat or attempt at intimidation?



QUOTE]

My mistake, it was another Anti-Law Enforcement individual, Blackwater Ops. My apologies to you on that point.

Ron-Solo
06-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Until the powers that be deem fit to remove me or my access to this forum, I will continue to ask my questions, and state my viewpoints, even if they make you uncomfortable. This isnt the street, this is the internet, you have no authority here.

As I said, the rules of this forum state you can ask questions in a CIVIL manner. It is not a forum for you to share your anti-law enforcement viewpoints.


So until then, you are "just following orders"?

No, I follow the law, as intrepreted by the courts, just as the Constution says I must.

I dont have a negative view of ALL LE, just most CA LEOs and those outside this state who have no respect for the Constitution and the Citizens of this Country.

Sorry. In my opinion, your words don't support that.


I am always civil when I come into contact with LE. I recognize that this individual has been given the power to take away my freedom and take my life with little to no justification. Since I have been disarmed by the politicians and their enforcers, I have no means with which to defend myself, so I must use my words and my mind to enable me to walk away from LE contact with my life and my liberty intact. However, WTF does attitude have to do with anything? Having a bad attitude is not against the law is it? Are you telling me now that having a bad attitude with LE is justification for them to take some sort of action against me regardless of whether I have broken any laws or not? This is the attitude Im talking about. Make no mention of the LAW that LEOs are supposed to be following/enforcing, instead base it all on assumptions and attitude.... and you wonder why some people are suspicious of and distrustful of LE.

You just don't get it do you? I said, when you have a negative attitude it can cause the officer to take legal action against you when he has the discreation to warn vs. cite, book for a misdemeanor instead of a felony on a wobbler. Attitude has a LOT to do with those decisions. If you come across as a fool, expect to get treated accordingly. I NEVER said a bad attitude would have them take illegal action against you if you haven't broken any laws.





Ron

SVT-40
06-04-2009, 4:21 PM
Actually, I do see street cops as the enemy, They are the footsoldiers out on the front lines, enforcing the unconstitutional laws, violating citizens rights and hiding behind the badge when they get called on it. Ive seen some pretty outrageous statements being made here by the LEOs on this forum, justifying criminal behavior by other LEOs, its disgusting.

LEOs do have the power to effect change, stop supporting the bad laws, period. Every time an anti gun bill comes up, you can guarantee that LE has signed on a supporter, and unless Im mistaken, thats you. Try and equate yourselves with Servicemembers, gimme a break. Servicemembers are required to challenge illegal orders, they are obligated to protect and defend the Constitution, not trample it under the color of authority. A man is just a man and commands no respect because of his position, Ill show LEOs respect, when they earn it, until then they get nothing but contempt from me.

Im sorry guy, but I hold no jealousy for LEOs and their ill gotten rewards for compromising with the the enemies of the Constitution. I dont need to covet what LEOs have, I have mine and intend to keep and defend it.

Its amusing that you would throw that in there, like jealousy has anything to do with it. This about equal treatment under the law and the abuse of power. This is about people who compromise their values and integrity to prop up power grabbing politicians and earn a little kickback for doing so. This is about those who abuse the system and their authority, and as long as the laws have no effect on them, have no inclination to change it.

LEOs are not any more special then any other person on street. Their lives are not inherently more valuable, their jobs are not any more important. Yet in this state, their masters have seen fit to throw them a few more scraps as long as they keep toeing the line and keep the riff-raff in check.

There will come a time when every man is held accountable for his actions, question for you is, do you fear it or welcome it?

Since you see all police as your enemy I suggest your opinion is so tainted as to not be relevant. Seriously ALL police are the enemy? That's a very prejudice view. Yes we are out every day doing our best to enforce the law, some of which we do not necessarily agree with. Most Cops don't regularly violate anyone civil rights. Some do, and when they are caught most are summarily fired. I've never "hidden behind my badge" and was always ready and willing to talk with any one regarding my decisions. I've never seen one single comment from any LEO here justifying any "illegal conduct.

Regarding "bad laws". You must have missed the info in my previous post that Officers are specifically prohibited from acting in any political way when on duty, or to use their employment for political issues. This is strictly prohibited, and will get you disciplined or fired.

If you think rank and file officers don't support most firearms issues, well you are just wrong. Regardless what you "believe", you are wrong.

You fail to realize there is a difference between the rank and file officers and top management. The managers (Chiefs and Sheriff's) are political positions and they use their power to try and influence legislation.

THEY ARE NOT THE RANK AND FILE!

And yes we are like U.S. service men and women. We too are empowered to challenge illegal and unethical orders. We too were sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce the laws of Union and the state. Like service members we DO NOT have the right to challenge orders we do not like, just because we do not like them.

As for you respecting law enforcement, yes you should. Because LEO's are out in the field every day doing the best they can to enforce the laws as currently written in as impartial a way as possible. As for your contempt, well you sound like a very unhappy fellow. It must be rough to travel about your day with such a large chip on your shoulder.

You talk about LEO's getting some kind of "ill gotten rewards"?? That is well just paranoid. LEO's do have allowances in the law regarding High caps, Aw's and off list pistols, But these are not as you say "ill gotten rewards". There was no Quid pro quot. in order to have these variances.

You talk about "equal treatment under the law". Do you think LEO's are the only folks who have "special" treatment?? There are many licensing rules and allowances which treat many people differently because of their position or employment.

Blasters are allowed to have explosives.
Doctors are allowed to prescribe drugs.
Fire personnel are allowed to disobey the vehicle code on runs.
Military are allowed any kind of weaponry.
And so on.

There are literally hundreds of licensing and other allowances in the various code and laws of the federal govt. as well as the states which allow certain people access to one thing or another not allowed to the general citizenry.

Yes, LEO's jobs are more important than some others. This is simply a fact. Because when citizens call for help in any situation 24-7 who do they call?? They call the Police. No one else.

The police come and deal with what ever is going on. They do not have the ability to simply walk away if they are not happy or do not like the people they are dealing with.

As for accountability. I have no problem when the time comes to meet my maker, because I know I always did my best to treat those I came into contact with while I was an LEO with respect and enforced the laws evenly and without prejudiced.

That is more than you can say, as by your own statement you hold ALL of law enforcement in disdain and contempt., and as your enemy.

Fair unprejudiced treatment is what you ask for from LEO's isn't it??

Try practicing what you preach. Your life will be much more rewarding and happy.

Ron-Solo
06-04-2009, 4:40 PM
Since you see all police as your enemy I suggest your opinion is so tainted as to not be relevant. Seriously ALL police are the enemy? That's a very prejudice view. Yes we are out every day doing our best to enforce the law, some of which we do not necessarily agree with. Most Cops don't regularly violate anyone civil rights. Some do, and when they are caught most are summarily fired. I've never "hidden behind my badge" and was always ready and willing to talk with any one regarding my decisions. I've never seen one single comment from any LEO here justifying and "illegal conduct.

Regarding "bad laws". You must have missed the info in my previous post that Officers are specifically prohibited from acting in any political way when on duty, or to use their employment for political issues. This is strictly prohibited.

If you think rank and file officers don't support most firearms issues, well you are just wrong. Regardless what you "believe", you are wrong.

You fail to realize there is a difference between the rank and file officers and top management. The managers (Chiefs and Sheriff's) are political positions and they use their power to try and influence legislation.

THEY ARE NOT THE RANK AND FILE!

And yes we are like U.S. service men and women. We too are empowered to challenge illegal and unethical orders. We too were sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce the laws of Union and the state. Like service members we DO NOT have the right to challenge orders we do not like, just because we do not like them.

As for you respecting law enforcement, yes you should. Because LEO's are out in the field every day doing the best they can to enforce the laws as currently written in as impartial a way as possible. As for your contempt, well you sound like a very unhappy fellow. It must be rough to travel about your day with such a large chip on your shoulder.

You talk about LEO's getting some kind of "ill gotten rewards"?? That is well just paranoid. LEO's do have allowances in the law regarding High caps, Aw's and off list pistols, But these are not as you say "ill gotten rewards". There was no Quid pro quot. in order to have these variances.

You talk about "equal treatment under the law". Do you think LEO's are the only folks who have "special" treatment?? There are many licensing rules and allowances which treat many people differently because of their position or employment.

Blasters are allowed to have explosives.
Doctors are allowed to prescribe drugs.
Fire personnel are allowed to disobey the vehicle code on runs.
Military are allowed any kind of weaponry.
And so on.

There are literally hundreds of licensing and other allowances in the various code and laws of the federal govt. as well as the states which allow certain people access to one thing or another not allowed to the general citizenry.

Yes, LEO's jobs are more important than some others. This is simply a fact. Because when citizens call for help in any situation 24-7 who do they call?? They call the Police. No one else.

The police come and deal with what ever is going on. They do not have the ability to simply walk away if they are not happy or do not like the people they are dealing with.

As for accountability. I have no problem when the time comes to meet my maker, because I know I always did my best to treat those I came into contact with while I was an LEO with respect and enforced the laws evenly and without prejudiced.

That is more than you can say, as by your own statement you hold ALL of law enforcement in disdain and contempt., and as your enemy.

Fair unprejudiced treatment is what you ask for from LEO's isn't it??

Try practicing what you preach. Your life will be much more rewarding and happy.

Well stated!

6172crew
06-04-2009, 5:54 PM
This is a friendly: knock it off!

Attacking any member in this forum and I will ask that the attacker be sent packing. If you came over to this forum to vent you have come to the wrong place. Again, knock it off!

Kestryll
06-04-2009, 6:04 PM
This is a friendly: knock it off!

Attacking any member in this forum and I will ask that the attacker be sent packing. If you came over to this forum to vent you have come to the wrong place. Again, knock it off!

I'm going to back this up with a reminder to read not only the general forum rules but the specific rules for this forum.

Now reread them.

Because if this crap keeps going the b*tchslap that coming is going to be permanent.

Jonathan Doe
06-04-2009, 8:12 PM
You know, there are people talk just about anything when they are hiding behind the keyboard on line because of no one knows who they are. A lot of them probably don't have courage to become a LEO and deal with the daily duty. I am just happy doing my best to protect everyone's life and rights to speak freely including the people who hate LEOs.

FLIGHT762
06-04-2009, 9:54 PM
I'm going to back this up with a reminder to read not only the general forum rules but the specific rules for this forum.

Now reread them.

Because if this crap keeps going the b*tchslap that coming is going to be permanent.

I was patiently waiting for someone to come to this forum/thread and bring it to it's senses.

Thanks.

Ron-Solo
06-05-2009, 10:48 AM
This is a friendly: knock it off!

Attacking any member in this forum and I will ask that the attacker be sent packing. If you came over to this forum to vent you have come to the wrong place. Again, knock it off!

???

yzernie
06-06-2009, 9:05 AM
I am just happy doing my best to protect everyone's life and rights to speak freely including the people who hate LEOs.
And there you have it. The very reason most of us have chosen to serve in the military or wear the badge today (and I'm not talking about some super hero-hose dragger badge either!!). People are going to voice their opinions because they can and them puking out their pie holes doesn't bother me anymore. I simply sit back and chuckly to myself at the ignorance.