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bodger
05-07-2009, 6:20 PM
I recently installed a Raddlock in my Bushmaster so I could have all the evils and still be legal. (10 round mag, of course)

I started reading some other threads about what can happen when certain LE types that don't know the laws grab your black rifle and haul you away anyway.

If you're not familiar, the Raddlock can be installed flush, thereby making it possible to activate the mag release only by the use of the tool provided.

However the Raddlock, with the use of the same tool and three or four counterclockwise turns of the screw, will operate exactly like a stnadard mag release. Which, as I understand from the CG flow chart and other sources, makes the rifle an illegal AW, even with the ten round mag.

FUD as it may be, I am thinking that it would be possible for LE to make that minor mag release adjustment, and snag a fat felony gun charge that they otherwise might have not been on firm ground with.

Am I paranoid or is this a reason to find a different fixed mag release, one that isn't adjustable/convertible with a small screwdriver or pen knife?

WokMaster1
05-07-2009, 6:44 PM
Do you have a copy of the Sacramento PD memo on OLL? Stop being a paranoid & just go out & enjoy your rifle. Read up on the law & know how to respond to question by officers. OLLs is pretty much common knowledge amongst cops nowadays.

Nodda Duma
05-07-2009, 7:40 PM
uh ..

I'd be more worried about having a Bushmaster lower. All Bushmaster XM15's are on the BANNED list. If it says "XM15" anywhere on the lower receiver, then it is illegal here in California unless it is a registered Assault Weapon.

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi?Yes=Yes&qq=2

-Jason

bodger
05-07-2009, 7:42 PM
uh ..

I'd be more worried about having a Bushmaster lower. All Bushmaster XM15's are on the BANNED list. If it says "XM15" anywhere on the lower receiver, then it is illegal here in California unless it is a registered Assault Weapon.

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi?Yes=Yes&qq=2

-Jason
Not a Bushmaster XM15 and does not say that anywhere on the lower.

Nodda Duma
05-07-2009, 7:43 PM
Not a Bushmaster XM15 and does not say that anywhere on the lower.

Then you're good to go. :thumbsup:

-Jason

Josh3239
05-07-2009, 7:47 PM
I think your being paranoid, when it comes down to it every lock is reversible. I wouldn't sweat it.

bodger
05-07-2009, 7:52 PM
Thanks. I did not know that other locks had this feature.

I'm just getting back into shooting and guns. And I only recently joined CG.
My head is spinning from all the laws and the extent to which our 2A rights are being trampled. It's way worse than I thought. And I don't want to break any laws.

Josh3239
05-07-2009, 7:57 PM
Well, not that feature but for example, the original BB I still run requires disassembly of magazine release. I will probably be buying a new magazine lock or two that utilizes the quick change lock.

rolo
05-07-2009, 8:02 PM
It's probably a lot better than you think right now, too. A lot of new folks who have just come into CalGuns haven't seen the progress that has been made in the last three years as it happened.

It might take some time to get up to speed, but the archived threads are a worthy read as are the flowcharts and etc. on the front page.

Educate yourself and you will be free. :thumbsup:

bodger
05-07-2009, 8:07 PM
It's probably a lot better than you think right now, too. A lot of new folks who have just come into CalGuns haven't seen the progress that has been made in the last three years as it happened.

It might take some time to get up to speed, but the archived threads are a worthy read as are the flowcharts and etc. on the front page.

Educate yourself and you will be free. :thumbsup:
Thanks, I've looked at the flow charts and also have read many threads.
Educational, and frightening at the same time. Frightened of the absurdity of the laws I mean.
I made a donation to CGF and will continue to do so and I'm glad I joined the fight.
I'm a veteran, and I'll be damned if I will let the likes of some of these antis trample on the constitution.
I still honor the oath I took to defend it.


Do you have a copy of the Sacramento PD memo on OLL? Stop being a paranoid & just go out & enjoy your rifle. Read up on the law & know how to respond to question by officers. OLLs is pretty much common knowledge amongst cops nowadays.

I don't have a copy of that SPD memo, and I tried searching the forum and Google and got nowhere. Is there a link?

wildhawker
05-07-2009, 8:23 PM
22748

Memo attached.

RomanDad
05-07-2009, 8:45 PM
I recently installed a Raddlock in my Bushmaster so I could have all the evils and still be legal. (10 round mag, of course)

I started reading some other threads about what can happen when certain LE types that don't know the laws grab your black rifle and haul you away anyway.

If you're not familiar, the Raddlock can be installed flush, thereby making it possible to activate the mag release only by the use of the tool provided.

However the Raddlock, with the use of the same tool and three or four counterclockwise turns of the screw, will operate exactly like a stnadard mag release. Which, as I understand from the CG flow chart and other sources, makes the rifle an illegal AW, even with the ten round mag.

FUD as it may be, I am thinking that it would be possible for LE to make that minor mag release adjustment, and snag a fat felony gun charge that they otherwise might have not been on firm ground with.

Am I paranoid or is this a reason to find a different fixed mag release, one that isn't adjustable/convertible with a small screwdriver or pen knife?

Loc-Tite?

bodger
05-07-2009, 9:21 PM
22748

Memo attached.
Thanks!! Downloaded, saved, and will keep a copy of it with me when I transport my Bushmaster and shoot.

Loc-Tite?

Good idea.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 9:01 AM
I dont see how the Raddlock wouldn't not attract the same scrutiny from the state that the Prince50 did with being able to back the screw out to restore normal mag release function?

Yes....a BB can be removed. But the BB does not contain within itself the ability to be switched from one to the other.

Don't get me wrong....I think it's a cool product.....but I dont think I wanna be the one to test out it's legality. I posted a thread recently about "constructive posession" by simply having the orginal mag release parts. Gene and B.W. said no on the constructive posession issue, but cautioned that it would NOT be wise or prudent to keep those "evil parts" with the rifle lest they fall into the "wrong hands" and somehow find themselves "mysteriously installed on the rifle in a police evidence locker".

So that being said.....I question the wisdom and prudence of having a button on the rifle which can be switched to detachable mag status with the simple turn of a screw driver. Seems pretty dicey to me. And since a BB can be switched out in just a couple of minutes for out-of-state use, why risk it?

So personally.....I don't see your concern as FUD at all....especially in view of the caution I received from Gene and B.W.

adamsreeftank
05-08-2009, 9:17 AM
I think the Radlock fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum between the bullet button and the Prince50.

If you see someone at the range who backed out the screw of a Prince50 and is dropping mags, it's pretty clear they are likely in violation. With the Radlock, they might be using a tool, or they might have set it as a push button. With both, unlike the bullet button, there is an illegal mode of operation, but with the Radlock, the mere fact that the mag was dropped does not really show that the device is being used illegally.

Like everything, follow the laws and use at your own risk.

timdps
05-08-2009, 9:54 AM
FUD as it may be, I am thinking that it would be possible for LE to make that minor mag release adjustment, and snag a fat felony gun charge that they otherwise might have not been on firm ground with.

Back to the original post, should a LEO decide to modify the rifle in that manner, he is the one committing the felony by manufacturing an assault weapon...

tim

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Back to the original post, should a LEO decide to modify the rifle in that manner, he is the one committing the felony by manufacturing an assault weapon...

tim

But unless someone catches him on video turning the screw before he puts it in the trunk of his car to hall it and you off to jail......YOU are gonna be the one with the felony AW charge on you and it will be your word against his. And you do think is gonna win that one in court? If you think it's gonna be you, I gotta big jug-o-vasoline I will give you for free cuz you're gonna need it!

I don't think I'd take the chance myself. The BB is easy enough to swap out for those occasional/rare trips out of state.

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 11:30 AM
But unless someone catches him on video turning the screw before he puts it in the trunk of his car to hall it and you off to jail......YOU are gonna be the one with the felony AW charge on you and it will be your word against his. And you do think is gonna win that one in court? If you think it's gonna be you, I gotta big jug-o-vasoline I will give you for free cuz you're gonna need it!

I don't think I'd take the chance myself. The BB is easy enough to swap out for those occasional/rare trips out of state.

The same cop that would back out a Prine50 or Raddlock is the same one that can just as easily screw a BB wrench in your's and say thats how he found it. Or (gasp) swap it to a regular mag release that can be done in under a minute.

I wish people would stop this parinoid crap. Obviously stay within your comfort zone but no need to bring other people into your tinfoil area. :TFH:

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 11:45 AM
The same cop that would back out a Prine50 or Raddlock is the same one that can just as easily screw a BB wrench in your's and say thats how he found it. Or (gasp) swap it to a regular mag release that can be done in under a minute.

I wish people would stop this parinoid crap. Obviously stay within your comfort zone but no need to bring other people into your tinfoil area. :TFH:

The difference being, to install a BB wrench or the original mag release button, he'd have to have one or go find one to install. Could it be done....yes.....but would take more time and effort.

With the P50 or the Raddlock....YOU have provided everything needed, all he would need is a small screwdriver or something similar he likely has in his pocket. I'd rather not make it that easy myself. Is it really worth the risk to save yourself 2 minutes to swap out the BB for the occasional out of state trip?

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 12:02 PM
The difference being, to install a BB wrench or the original mag release button, he'd have to have one or go find one to install. Could it be done....yes.....but would take more time and effort.

With the P50 or the Raddlock....YOU have provided everything needed, all he would need is a small screwdriver or something similar he likely has in his pocket. I'd rather not make it that easy myself. Is it really worth the risk to save yourself 2 minutes to swap out the BB for the occasional out of state trip?

The majority of Buller Button users I see have the (freelock/bullet button wrench/Magnet) right there with the rifles. If they are on a mission to frame people they would just bring there own tools/replacement buttons to frame people up.

I don't think you give the majority of honest officers enough credit. There is a reason you don't see people posting on here about being frammed/set up by LEO's. Its because they are not doing that. People open-carrying are not being charged with loaded guns even though it would be very easy for the officer to say the mag was already in the gun. Not all officers keep a small bag of weed on them to plant so they can search your car..... :TFH::TFH:

As said, do what you feel comfortable with....but don't spread FUD. Yes, you telling people that a bullet button is the safest way can put Fear, Uncertaintly, & Doubt in users of other perfectly legal mag locks.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 12:15 PM
I don't think you give the majority of honest officers enough credit.

My personal feeling is that the honest majority are neither. But that's just my opinion.

How is stating some things that are good to at least consider when deciding what your comfort level is spreading FUD?

If the risk is worth the 2mins you save on the occasional "out of state trip"....then go right ahead. It's not worth it to me though....

FastFinger
05-08-2009, 12:26 PM
If a LEO is inclined to trump up charges against you, he'll figure out some way to do so regardless of what mag lock you have.

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 1:11 PM
How is stating some things that are good to at least consider when deciding what your comfort level is spreading FUD?


Your Fear...Your Uncertainty....Your Doubt.
FUD comments can spiral out of control fast.
The diference is between saying:
I feel more confortable with the BB because I don't trust officers not to back out my P50/Raddolock.
vs
Its not worth the risk....hope you like prison....you will lose....cops are bad...

Pretty soon I have people come asking for BB only because "they heard" cops are backing out raddlocks and charging people with AW's.

Its your FUD. I spend a good part of my week trying to explain to customers that what the guy on calguns said was just FUD. Stop it already.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 1:24 PM
Your Fear...Your Uncertainty....Your Doubt.
FUD comments can spiral out of control fast.
The diference is between saying:
I feel more confortable with the BB because I don't trust officers not to back out my P50/Raddolock.
vs
Its not worth the risk....hope you like prison....you will lose....cops are bad...

Pretty soon I have people come asking for BB only because "they heard" cops are backing out raddlocks and charging people with AW's.

Its your FUD. I spend a good part of my week trying to explain to customers that what the guy on calguns said was just FUD. Stop it already.

I just saw a raddlock in a package the other day with a BIG NOTE in it that said "This product is not DOJ approved". That was in the display case, in a well known SoCal seller of EBRs and accessories.

My personal feeling is that all things considered.....it's prolly pushin' the limit right now and for me I dont think it's worth the risk. If it is for others and their "out of state" shooting trips (even though we all know what that's code for) then go for it.

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 1:37 PM
I just saw a raddlock in a package the other day with a BIG NOTE in it that said "This product is not DOJ approved". That was in the display case, in a well known SoCal seller of EBRs and accessories.


The Bullet Button & Prince 50 come with the same disclaimer. The only difference is the Raddlock comes with colored instructions.

If it is for others and their "out of state" shooting trips (even though we all know what that's code for) then go for it.

Many people here shoot out of state for competitions or training classes (myself included). Don't assume people are buying these to break the law.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 2:07 PM
Many people here shoot out of state for competitions or training classes (myself included). Don't assume people are buying these to break the law.

I realize that.....as do I. That's why I said OCCASIONAL out of state trip before. But for as often as most people do it, the 2 mins it takes to swap out a BB doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I didn't assume people were buying them for the express purpose of breaking the law, but it doesn't mean that SOME people will poorly choose to push the limit when they think now one is watching.

What can I say.....the Raddlock just seems to be a bit of a warmed-over P50 lock which has been considered questionable some legal authorities. That being the case....I still just say why risk it for the occasional out of state trip? I don't see that as FUD. If you do I don't really care, the OP asked for input....and I can give mine just like you can give yours.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 4:56 PM
Its your FUD. I spend a good part of my week trying to explain to customers that what the guy on calguns said was just FUD. Stop it already.

Not to mention the great legal mind of CFG who got CA OLLs to begin offered the cautionary thoughts I talked about earlier in my "constructive posession" thread. So my thoughts are based on something more than FUD sir.

And if I am to decide who's advice to head, the guys who's profession is legal advice and keeping people out of jail, and someone who appearantly whose profession is selling firearms/accessories.....I think I will go the CFG legal eagles on this one.

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 5:13 PM
Not to mention the great legal mind of CFG who got CA OLLs to begin offered the cautionary thoughts I talked about earlier in my "constructive posession" thread. So my thoughts are based on something more than FUD sir.

And if I am to decide who's advice to head, the guys who's profession is legal advice and keeping people out of jail, and someone who appearantly whose profession is selling firearms/accessories.....I think I will go the CFG legal eagles on this one.

No such thing as constructive possession when it comes to CA AW laws. This was explained to you in the other post by Bill. The advice was not to keep components to configure it to an AW near by. Not saying do not use Raddlocks/P50s/B16s/B15s/ect.

If you are that worried you are in the wrong sport. BS charges can always be filed. Evidence can always be tampered with. Work on learning how to pass the "attitude test" and you will learn that most LEO's are pretty good guys.

P.S. you can search on your own (I have no desire to do the work for you) that Bill&Gene have both said the raddlock/B16 are all fine and people using them properly should not be worried. Read the whole P50 might become illegal thread.

bodger
05-08-2009, 5:19 PM
I appreciate all the replies and different viewpoints on this subject.
Thanks.
-Bodger

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 5:43 PM
No such thing as constructive possession when it comes to CA AW laws. This was explained to you in the other post by Bill. The advice was not to keep components to configure it to an AW near by. Not saying do not use Raddlocks/P50s/B16s/B15s/ect.


Please don't talk down to me. I remember the constructive posession discussion...it was my thread.

If the advice was not to keep the components together to configure an AW.....how is having a Raddlock that can configure a rifle into an AW with the turn of a screw driver not that same damn thing? I don't see that it is. Do PLEASE set me straight because obviously I'm a total idiot who is incapable of constructing a coherent thought or drawing a connecton between 2 nearly identical things.

As for my attitude.....I dont have to watch me attitude with LEOs because I don't do stupid ***** to attract unwanted attention from the law.

Just because my asessment differs from your's and does not support your profit margin does not make it FUD.

BONECUTTER
05-08-2009, 5:58 PM
Please don't talk down to me. I remember the constructive posession discussion...it was my thread.

If the advice was not to keep the components together to configure an AW.....how is having a Raddlock that can configure a rifle into an AW with the turn of a screw driver not that same damn thing? I don't see that it is. Do PLEASE set me straight because obviously I'm a total idiot who is incapable of constructing a coherent thought or drawing a connecton between 2 nearly identical things.

As for my attitude.....I dont have to watch me attitude with LEOs because I don't do stupid ***** to attract unwanted attention from the law.

Just because my asessment differs from your's and does not support your profit margin does not make it FUD.

Clearly you are taking everything I say personally. I was not talking down to you at all. You are trying to link a comment Bill said about taking a pistol grip off and leaving it next to the rifle as raddlocks are bad because they can be done with just a screwdriver. With a screw driver I can remove your bullet button and now you have a AW. It does not need a mag release for it to be an AW. Once you are past the need a tool to remove part and have any AW features thats what you have.

Clearly I struck a nerve with you and for that I apologize, as said its frustrating for me to deal with the I heard this on the calguns junk. If Bill or Gene felt anything was wrong with the Raddlock Im sure they would of spoke up by now. They haven't and when called out in the Prince50 going to be illegal thread they said the raddlock was fine.

Raddlocks fly off the shelves, as do bullet buttons, and even prince 50's here. I honestly don't care what ones sell more. Im not a owner and have no stake in the profits. But all the mag lock makers are great guys who deserve to have there products sold. When people say stuff thats not true it annoys me.

Again sorry if I offended you in anyway. As I said in the beginning. Do what makes you comfortable but don't spread your fears on others.

Some people are concerned about the Radlock as I hadn't answered that question directly. Since the Radlock in CA mode doesn't need to be removed to remove the magazine it would most likely be considered a bullet button analog and would be fine.

Don't panic folks. Just move way from the old set screw on ARs.

-Gene

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 6:14 PM
Do what makes you comfortable but don't spread your fears on others.

I am irritated that you keep saying the me engaging in rational debate as spreading fear.

I recall Bill saying don't keep the standard mag release parts in the case with the rifle, or stored inside the pistol grip lest they somehow find their way to being installed on the rifle while in the lockup. That is what I am basing my statements on.

If he's saying that's not a good idea.....then to me....the raddlock seems like essentially the same problem.

I understand anything can be installed/uninstalled. I'm just saying there's no point in making to easy for it to "accidentally" become illegally configured.

I mean hoestly.....if it's all this simple then what's the point of any of them? Why not have the regular button installed and claim that your finger is the tool required to remove the magazine?

bwiese
05-08-2009, 6:21 PM
I am irritated that you keep saying the me engaging in rational debate as spreading fear.

I recall Bill saying don't keep the standard mag release parts in the case with the rifle, or stored inside the pistol grip lest they somehow find their way to being installed on the rifle while in the lockup. That is what I am basing my statements on.

It's just a piece of prevetive caution and you are overextending my words.

Maybe it's just best to say, "it's not helpful to store irrational crap in your range bag that you have no legal outlet for in CA?"

I didn't say it was a losing case. I said that there's no need to be "DA+ cop bait". One already has an elevated requirement for verbal/mental agility under strees to know & recite the details of legal OLL configurations to a cop who may not have heard of OLL "non-AWs that look like AWs". So why have one extra step to explain? Geez. just make your life easier.


If he's saying that's not a good idea.....then to me....the raddlock seems like essentially the same problem.Raddlock is a latching/locking device roughtly akin to a BB.
It requires a tool to remvoe the nondetachable magazine and/or to remove the device iteself.


I understand anything can be installed/uninstalled. I'm just saying there's no point in making to easy for it to "accidentally" become illegally configured.And the BB device clearly accomplishes that. It requires a tool.





I mean hoestly.....if it's all this simple then what's the point of any of them? Why not have the regular button installed and claim that your finger is the tool required to remove the magazine?Because the law (regulatory definition) of 'detachable magazine' specifies a tool is NOT required for its removal.

Untamed1972
05-08-2009, 7:16 PM
It's just a piece of prevetive caution and you are overextending my words.

Maybe it's just best to say, "it's not helpful to store irrational crap in your range bag that you have no legal outlet for in CA?"

I didn't say it was a losing case. I said that there's no need to be "DA+ cop bait". One already has an elevated requirement for verbal/mental agility under strees to know & recite the details of legal OLL configurations to a cop who may not have heard of OLL "non-AWs that look like AWs". So why have one extra step to explain? Geez. just make your life easier.


Raddlock is a latching/locking device roughtly akin to a BB.
It requires a tool to remvoe the nondetachable magazine and/or to remove the device iteself.


And the BB device clearly accomplishes that. It requires a tool.





Because the law (regulatory definition) of 'detachable magazine' specifies a tool is NOT required for its removal.


Thanks for the input B.W. I appreciate the clarification. And I do realize the raddlock does meet the legal requirement in the locked position....it just seems a little to easy to switch back and forth (as opposed to having to remove one part and install another)...admittedly as far MY comfort level is concerned. Others may be fine with it.....just seems a little closer to the line then I'd like to be.

And I do think in one of my original posts in this thread I roughly quoted you as saying "it wouldn't be wise or prudent" to store the offending parts with the rifle. So in my mind it's much of a leap to include in that a lock the can so easily be "unlocked". Is that too much to a leap to make that connection?

I still think we should push for having the index finger classified as a tool though. It would make things so much simpler! :)

bodger
05-08-2009, 7:36 PM
And I do realize the raddlock does meet the legal requirement in the locked position....it just seems a little to easy to switch back and forth (as opposed to having to remove one part and install another)...admittedly as far MY comfort level is concerned. Others may be fine with it.....just seems a little closer to the line then I'd like to be.


That is exactly why I started this thread and asked the original question.

I don't have the mind set that all LEOs are evil and will reconfigure a confiscated rifle by turning a screw three revolutions to enable them to charge a felony on a weapon that is not an AW and is in compliance with all existing laws.

I do, however, have trepidations about presenting the easy opportunity for any LEO to do that. Even though I am always polite and cooperative with any police officer.

Untamed1972
05-09-2009, 7:43 AM
That is exactly why I started this thread and asked the original question.

I don't have the mind set that all LEOs are evil and will reconfigure a confiscated rifle by turning a screw three revolutions to enable them to charge a felony on a weapon that is not an AW and is in compliance with all existing laws.

I do, however, have trepidations about presenting the easy opportunity for any LEO to do that. Even though I am always polite and cooperative with any police officer.

That why I've said "why mkae it so easy for someone". BUt that's just my personal feeling on it. If you really do shoot out of state occasionally, the stanard BB is easy enough to swap out, once out of state. And it only take ONE bad COP to ruin the rest of your life. Not a gamble I'd like to take.

hopefully one day all this AWB stuff will go away and we can have the freedom to shoot unaltered rifles like everyone else.