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Hipmatt
05-07-2009, 8:41 AM
http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Milwaukee-Police-Department-Finds-Problems-With-Guns/1$46288

ILWAUKEE --

The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.

Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.

The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.

The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.

On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.

Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.

Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.

Police said stovepiping can be caused by technique depending on the position of the gun.

But, the memo to the department revealed that the problem could be with the gun itself.

"We had experienced a number of issues on the range with our issued Glock model 22, .40 caliber duty pistol magazines, which represents 45 percent of our issued weapons," said Flynn in the memo.

The chief became aware of the problem in January 2008. Since then, "Glock has replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to the Milwaukee Police Department," said Flynn in the memo.

The memo also said that the department addressed the issue with officers during a 2008 in-service firearms training session.

But, according to the memo, 300 weapons have been transitioned while 600 remain.

On Thursday night, training division personnel are exchanging the magazines in the remaining 600 firearms.

The memo went on to say that due to an abudance of caution, the academy will be operating 24 hours a day for the next three days or until the magazines have been replaced.

Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range.

Copyright 2009 by WISN.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

5hundo
05-07-2009, 8:48 AM
Sounds like the problem is with the Magazine, not the pistol itself...

1JimMarch
05-07-2009, 8:58 AM
Or the ammo?

Greg-Dawg
05-07-2009, 9:04 AM
Or daily maintenance and training?

Matt C
05-07-2009, 9:13 AM
Or limp wristed cops?

Greg-Dawg
05-07-2009, 9:16 AM
Or not enough range time?

hybridatsun350
05-07-2009, 9:27 AM
Or limp wristed cops?

Hahahaha! +1

That's what I was thinking the entire time I was reading that! :p

BTF/PTM
05-07-2009, 10:06 AM
Is stovepiping an extraction problem?

Dangerous1
05-07-2009, 10:38 AM
A lot of times volley of fire will be shot while under protection of cover. At certain angles, the officer may not have had a solid grasp and may have limp wristed the firearm. I think a firearm needs to operate even while limp wristed. You have to consider the fact that you may need to draw and fire your first couple shots from the hip without a solid grip on the pistol. Maybe some "reliable" weapons are too sensitive to this. Departments really need to take that into consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ
In this video, the LEO manages to fire off one round from the hip and his weapon immediately jams, which leads to a very dangerous situation.

hawk1
05-07-2009, 10:45 AM
Or with whoever didn't follow through with swapping out the mags.

trendar5
05-07-2009, 10:46 AM
You all seriously don't know about the Glock 22 problems? It is not limp-wristing. Go read about it on 10-8forum. Usually, the problem involves a light installed on the rail. The worst thing about the above article was the department said essentially that the problem was only happening at the range, so they did not respond the way they did till a guy got shot. ANY gun can stovepipe, however. 5Hundo is right....an 11-coil mag spring seemed to be the best fix to this ongoing problem, but not entirely a solution.

jimbo1747
05-07-2009, 10:49 AM
Perhaps Milwaukee P.D. needs to train their officers on how to clear a jam?!

Jicko
05-07-2009, 10:57 AM
Or limp wristed cops?

I think in a shoot out, and when you are hit.... there is a good chance that you "limp wrist".... while dodging incoming bullets...

Matt C
05-07-2009, 11:01 AM
I think in a shoot out, and when you are hit.... there is a good chance that you "limp wrist".... while dodging incoming bullets...

Hell no, I'd have a death grip on that thing.

paladin4415
05-07-2009, 1:34 PM
As posted above. Feeding problems with Glock 22's are well known. Adding a light to the gun, makes the problem much worse.

HCz
05-07-2009, 2:50 PM
As many said, I wonder if a light was attached to the gun. There seems to be some problems with taht setting. There are a lot of internet rumors, so you have to give it some clack, but it seems like it is not just an old wive's tale.

Tillers_Rule
05-07-2009, 2:59 PM
Wasn't there just a similar story with another police department?

THT
05-07-2009, 3:46 PM
Or limp wristed cops?

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

punisheryayarea
05-07-2009, 5:02 PM
Should've had a .45 but I have to say my glock 30sf jammed 4 times but only with WWB ammo...... But not with Fed, or PMC, Or DPX (DPX is carry only)

trendar5
05-07-2009, 5:43 PM
THT, really? Since you are in Illinois, there must be a time delay. Don't you think limp-wristing has been ruled out as a cause of G22 problems by the numerous agencies that have switched away from it?

lawrence29
05-07-2009, 6:20 PM
Our local CHP like it because its light & higher cap. otherwise, some say the old S &W is more reliable and some still prefer six guns!

punisheryayarea
05-07-2009, 6:31 PM
Why dont the Fed's, CHP, or local PD's like .45's.......

chickenfried
05-07-2009, 6:32 PM
You're forgetting glock rule 1, it's never the gun at fault:p.THT, really? Since you are in Illinois, there must be a time delay. Don't you think limp-wristing has been ruled out as a cause of G22 problems by the numerous agencies that have switched away from it?

MP301
05-07-2009, 9:14 PM
Only happening at the range? That is about the stupidest statement I ever heard! Where else is it going to happen? What, are thdey shooting in the field every day? If it happens at the range, under controlled conditions, then yeah....id say its only a matter of time.......

Rob Roy
05-07-2009, 9:28 PM
Perhaps Milwaukee P.D. needs to train their officers on how to clear a jam?!
Big +1 on that. That's an integral part of pistol operation.

Tillers_Rule
05-07-2009, 9:34 PM
Why dont the Fed's, CHP, or local PD's like .45's.......

The reasons I can think of:

*Less capacity
*More expensive
*More recoil, so the follow up shots are harder

Those would be the reasons I would chose a 9mm over those two calibers anyway...

lioneaglegriffin
05-07-2009, 9:42 PM
The reasons I can think of:

*Less capacity
*More expensive
*More recoil, so the follow up shots are harder

Those would be the reasons I would chose a 9mm over those two calibers anyway...

there has been a heavy vs. light weapon comparison for centuries from swords to guns. its a matter of preference IMO.

7x57
05-07-2009, 10:19 PM
Only happening at the range? That is about the stupidest statement I ever heard! Where else is it going to happen? What, are thdey shooting in the field every day? If it happens at the range, under controlled conditions, then yeah....id say its only a matter of time.......

It's a human behavior called "the normalization of deviance." It took down two shuttles, among other things.

First, an anomaly is detected (probably in a highly complex system, as they are more likely to have unexplained behaviors). The system behaves in some deviant way that is difficult to diagnose. The difficulty could be technical (insulation comes off the external tank and occasionally impacts the heat shielding), or it could be social (we oversold our expertise and our design and pinned our entire manned space program on the shuttle, so nothing can be permitted to go wrong and we'll do anything to hide evidence to the contrary). In any event, it has no obvious bad effect--it's just unexplained (the damage to the tiles is within the safety margin).

Hopefully, the engineers at least recognize that the unknown is bad--this system is insufficiently understood. That's normal thinking for engineers, who are trained to deal with a reality that kills without mercy when its rules are violated, but they could be incompetent. If they are competent and raise warnings, however, the managers, who are trained to deal with human relations where everything is fuzzy, poorly understood, and up for negotiation, refuse to look into it, or won't provide funds to really track it down. Here is where human nature comes in: it is natural to decide that it's curious, but not really important (the damage to the tiles is really minimal). Not worth the effort. But anomalies generate warning flags, so the deviant behavior begins to be documented and accepted as normal, "passing" behavior. The deviance has become normal.

This can go on for quite some time, but I hope it's obvious that sooner or later this kind of thinking will kill. All anomalies in powerful, dangerous systems are warning signs. Very often, they are the only warning signs that will be given before a catastrophe. Sure, they could be harmless--but they still mean the system is poorly understood, and that itself is dangerous. Or, just maybe, they are the prelude to disaster.

This is the same thing on a smaller scale. Yes, they were stupid--but we're stupid that way too, sometimes. Maybe you start noticing the bolt is occasionally hard to open when shooting that new ammo. Or occasionally a shot sounds weak, but there is no other sign of a problem. Or just once, it double-taps. Do you keep shooting? If so, you've normalized a deviant behavior. I've done it. You have too. But doing so violates the fundamental rule of Messin' With Serious Stuff: the universe doesn't care if you die, and might whisper the only warning you get.

7x57

Seed
05-07-2009, 10:23 PM
Perhaps Milwaukee P.D. needs to train their officers on how to clear a jam?!

Big +1 on that. That's an integral part of pistol operation.


Are you serious? During a shoot out? God. Come on. This gun should not be jamming to the point they are reporting.

yellowfin
05-07-2009, 10:39 PM
Looks like it's time to watch the used PD surplus market for a fresh batch of Glocks.

ERdept
05-08-2009, 3:14 AM
The only pistol I feel that has reliably fired anything is a Glock, and Ive had them all.

Not to say the others were bad, it's just the Glock never failed.

But, when I gave it to my GF, she expereinced FTF and FTE's

Only change was to a little girl. So I can only conclude it was the officer not the gun.

This is certainly not something you hear often.

punisheryayarea
05-08-2009, 7:09 AM
Looks like it's time to watch the used PD surplus market for a fresh batch of Glocks.

YAY that's what I'm talk'n about!!!!!:thumbsup:

Kid Stanislaus
05-08-2009, 7:14 AM
Or limp wristed cops?


Yeah, its really disconcerting to call a police officer to a riot and have him step out of the car and announce "Hey! I'm othifer Brucie and you boys THTOP that!"!!:43:

lioneaglegriffin
05-08-2009, 7:19 AM
Are you serious? During a shoot out? God. Come on. This gun should not be jamming to the point they are reporting.

i've read in Glock magazine of all places that a glock jammed when a female LEO was being was shot and on the ground when a bank robber shot her. she removed the jam and fired with her weak hand under the glock to support it and that did the trick. IMO you should be able to limp wrist a gun to call it reliable. Not its reliable so long as the ammo is right and you shoot it right and its clean etc. thats not reliability, thats a normal gun.

maxicon
05-08-2009, 7:55 AM
I haven't heard of the Glock 22 problem, but I'm not a Glock fan. A few questions:

- Wouldn't a light on the rail make the gun less prone to limp-wristing, not more? The extra weight helps keep it in place and gives it more resistance to recoil force movement.

- How would a mag or mag spring contribute to stovepiping? My experience with stovepipes is that it's usually an extraction problem or a load-vs-recoil-spring problem, but I'm not that familiar with the quirks of Glocks.

Whatever the cause is, it's astonishing that they ignored it at the range. As far as the Glock's reported sensitivity to limp-wristing, I'd never rely on a gun for HD when something as minor as that can cause it to malf. You just can't predict what will go wrong in an emergency - stuff happens.

Like lioneaglegriffin says, a reliable gun runs fine in less than perfect circumstances.

mecam
05-08-2009, 8:08 AM
Switch to XDM, problem solved. :thumbsup:

joe_sun
05-08-2009, 8:24 AM
Is this a problem with the Glock 23 as well (or all Glock fotays) or just the 22?

Reason I ask is a G23 is my primary HD pistol.

Hipmatt
05-08-2009, 8:43 AM
wow.. tool around here and look at the info this guy has.. ouch..
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/gindex2.html

Turbinator
05-08-2009, 9:04 AM
Why dont the Fed's, CHP, or local PD's like .45's.......

Like, say, a Glock 21?

Turby

HCz
05-08-2009, 9:19 AM
I believe this is problem for both 22 and 23 with lights mounted on the rail.

DocSkinner
05-08-2009, 9:23 AM
The only pistol I feel that has reliably fired anything is a Glock, and Ive had them all.

Not to say the others were bad, it's just the Glock never failed.

But, when I gave it to my GF, she expereinced FTF and FTE's

Only change was to a little girl. So I can only conclude it was the officer not the gun.

This is certainly not something you hear often.

My "never fail" is my HiPower in 40SW. Never had any failure, even when newbies limp wrist it, and with any fodder put through it.

Have always wondered if the polymer guns lighter weight increases limp wristing, or if the weight reduction just amplifies the problems of limp wristing? (less mass - less resistance to slide momentum)

precisionshooter308
05-08-2009, 9:36 AM
ANY semi, (1911, Glock, Hi Power etc.) will fail to function when limp wristed. Glocks and other poly guns tend to be more prone to this due to the flex that makes the weapon disipate felt recoil.

walter
05-08-2009, 9:37 AM
i dont know why but the mags that came with my 19c had 2183 followers and would jam almost every shot until glock fixed them with 9mm followers

lioneaglegriffin
05-08-2009, 12:53 PM
ANY semi, (1911, Glock, Hi Power etc.) may fail to function when limp wristed. Glocks and other poly guns tend to be more prone to this due to the flex that makes the weapon disipate felt recoil.

fixed

DocSkinner
05-08-2009, 2:49 PM
ANY semi, (1911, Glock, Hi Power etc.) will fail to function when limp wristed. Glocks and other poly guns tend to be more prone to this due to the flex that makes the weapon disipate felt recoil.

well, yes with enough limp wristing!

well, and not ANY semiauto - Desert Eagles are gas operated, so not reliant on recoil... but I guess if you let go of it, (extreme limp wristing?) it might not cycle...

MarioS
05-08-2009, 3:01 PM
As someone mentioned before, clearing a jam under extreme stress should be an integral part of any firearms training, although I can understand how someone might just forget the thing and go to another tool if a jam comes up under heat.

jaymz
05-08-2009, 3:05 PM
Cop fired 13 rounds vs. the bad guy's 6? If he had hit the bad guy with the same number of rounds as the bad guy used to hit him, we wouldn't be having this conversation about stovepipes.


:43:

DocSkinner
05-08-2009, 6:02 PM
Cop fired 13 rounds vs. the bad guy's 6? If he had hit the bad guy with the same number of rounds as the bad guy used to hit him, we wouldn't be having this conversation about stovepipes.


:43:

+1 -

Maybe train hitting your target under stress, and then add on clearing jams under pressure!

precisionshooter308
05-09-2009, 5:31 PM
DocSkinner, I agree about the D.E. and Gas op; that would be extreme limp wristing or fatigue from carrying a 12 lb pistol.

matrix056
05-09-2009, 8:07 PM
For you "paper punchers" out there that only take your gun to the range, dont talk about what someone "should" be doing in a shootout unless you have been there.

Second, Glocks are not reliable in my book. I have had several jams/doulbe-feeds in my G23(no light), using quaility ammo, such asWinchester. For those that blame limp-wristing, I have never had a jam/stovepipe/FTF/FTE/etc.... in any Sig, HK, S&W, or any other pistol for that matter. What if the officer has to draw and fire one-handed in a hurry? A service pistol should be reliable enough to properly cycle even when "limp-wristing"

JohnnyG
05-10-2009, 6:53 AM
Let's be clear about one thing. This is not how ALL Glock 22's behave. Not even close.

Those who argue that they should be able to limp wrist a gun and it should still function flawlessly, well good luck finding a duty style handgun that likes to be limp wristed, and if you do, you will pay extensively in the weight department. Life is about compromise and so are firearms. If limp-wristing is at the top of your selection criteria list, then have at it. For me, I will choose something light, reliable (save for limp wristing), accurate enough, VERY easy to fix / maintain, tough as nails with good capacity.

I have more than 5000 rounds through my Glock 22 without a *single* failure that wasn't put there on purpose for training reasons or was attributable to weak/old magazine springs. Most of those rounds were during qualifications or high speed training, not plinking at the range. Except for mag springs, my gun has had NOTHING replaced or repaired or exchanged. I've shot mostly factory loads, but some weaker stuff too. Still no class 1 or 2 malfunctions (or class 3 for that matter). I'm only saying this to point out that the vast majority of G22's function without issue.

There are 100's of agencies across the country successfully using Glock 22's, so let's not pretend they're all bad just because a (relative) few of these guns exhibit issues. Maybe quality control, but not bad design.

That being said, Glock needs to step up to the plate and address any issues that exist here.

JTROKS
05-10-2009, 7:06 AM
A lot of times volley of fire will be shot while under protection of cover. At certain angles, the officer may not have had a solid grasp and may have limp wristed the firearm. I think a firearm needs to operate even while limp wristed. You have to consider the fact that you may need to draw and fire your first couple shots from the hip without a solid grip on the pistol. Maybe some "reliable" weapons are too sensitive to this. Departments really need to take that into consideration. Let me know when you find an automatic pistol that can be reliable even when fired limp wristed.


Those who argue that they should be able to limp wrist a gun and it should still function flawlessly, well good luck finding a duty style handgun that likes to be limp wristed, and if you do, you will pay extensively in the weight department.

Looks like all of this can be solved with a 7 or 8 shot revolver. I can see S&W dancing in the background. You can shoot a revolver limp wristed all day and it will go bang every time.

DocSkinner
05-10-2009, 1:37 PM
DocSkinner, I agree about the D.E. and Gas op; that would be extreme limp wristing or fatigue from carrying a 12 lb pistol.

yeah - doubt most department would issue desert eagles as carry guns - and pity the guys that would have to lug those around! Maybe issue cross-chest hunting holsters?

But that would be a mean look...

Are the baby eagles GO or recoil? pulled up their site but didn't see it anywhere!

glockwise2000
05-10-2009, 2:06 PM
Is stovepiping an extraction problem?

I doubt it. My Glock 26 & 22 did have 50k+ rounds each and didn't have any problem. Unlike with my XD and 1911s which just had 800+ round when it started jamming.

I doubt it would be the pistol. I would pressume the reason that the mags have a bad spring load/tension. This is my guess.

j6p2004
05-10-2009, 2:48 PM
foods for thought...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

chickenfried
05-10-2009, 3:07 PM
fsewsolPyBU&feature=related

Jh9JhCyFFxA

JTROKS
05-10-2009, 4:14 PM
It's a good thing I put the G23 in the safe and currently have the 5906 and 6906 on HD duty.

Badger71
05-10-2009, 6:47 PM
The only pistol I feel that has reliably fired anything is a Glock, and Ive had them all.

Not to say the others were bad, it's just the Glock never failed.

But, when I gave it to my GF, she expereinced FTF and FTE's

Only change was to a little girl. So I can only conclude it was the officer not the gun.

This is certainly not something you hear often.

This was why my HD Glock 23 was sold years ago...my wife just couldn't understand the "grip" concept.

DocSkinner
05-10-2009, 7:29 PM
I doubt it. My Glock 26 & 22 did have 50k+ rounds each and didn't have any problem. Unlike with my XD and 1911s which just had 800+ round when it started jamming.

I doubt it would be the pistol. I would pressume the reason that the mags have a bad spring load/tension. This is my guess.

stove piping is from the slide not cycling fully back - so it doesn't go back far enough to pick up a new cartridge, and then closes before the spent one can clear. This is usually a limp wrist or squib load issue or combination of the two.

lioneaglegriffin
05-10-2009, 8:16 PM
fsewsolPyBU&feature=related

Jh9JhCyFFxA

what ever happened to the first round?

Seed
05-10-2009, 8:45 PM
So happy I bought a Sig. Saw a few LEO in training today. Richmond PD. They carry Sig 229 40 cals. The women was a great shot.

Sweet.