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markw
05-06-2009, 10:33 PM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

FS00008
05-06-2009, 10:37 PM
I'd have her do the 10/22 or pistol.... just because it is an HDR rather than a benign 10/22 or pistol...

Nullzero
05-06-2009, 10:38 PM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

A lot of teachers will flip out. I think its not worth the trouble, the teacher could spin it like she was teaching the class how to get a gun and make it etc.

Dr Rockso
05-06-2009, 10:39 PM
Go for it.

See if she can beat this kid
irykjLjuKo8

Alan Block
05-06-2009, 10:41 PM
in writing so your kid is protected.

AlexBreya
05-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Its best that you just use an OLL, especially since field stripping a 10/22 is not going to be a very long how to. have her explain how to assemble an AR lower receiver.

DDT
05-06-2009, 10:42 PM
Sadly, I'd feel the need to check with the school before letting her do this. I understand that some have restrictions on any firearms representation in classrooms.

I'd also do the handgun for logistical reasons as much as any other. It's ALOT easier to video the pistol because you won't be panning around trying to get long pieces in the frame as they're being moved about. It will also be easier to get overhead shots showing the entire gun.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 10:42 PM
I'd make it a 1911. I'd add it's what Grandpa used in WWII, What Dad used in Vietnam and what is used today adding a little history to it may also help with the teacher accepting the object you'll use.

dwtt
05-06-2009, 10:46 PM
Use a CMP Garand and tell how this rifle helped defeat Nazism during WW2.

DDT
05-06-2009, 10:48 PM
I'd make it a 1911. I'd add it's what Grandpa used in WWII, What Dad used in Vietnam and what is used today adding a little history to it may also help with the teacher accepting the object you'll use.

heh..... You're showing your age. Now, it's what Great Grandpa used in WWII, what Grandpa used in VietNam and what Dad had to buy for himself in Desert Storm.

Dr Rockso
05-06-2009, 10:54 PM
Pros:
The kids will get some gun exposure outside of the TV/film crap
A brief discussion of safe handling could save someone's life (mention the 3 rules and show how to clear)
The boys in the class will know you're well armed :chris:

Cons:
Slight chance of the teacher getting pissy

phamkl
05-06-2009, 10:58 PM
Huge chance of that. I think the whole "Zero Tolerance" policy regarding guns is a state-wide thing.

I had a friend who had to go change because his shirt displayed a gun too prominently.

Dr Rockso
05-06-2009, 11:10 PM
Huge chance of that. I think the whole "Zero Tolerance" policy regarding guns is a state-wide thing.

I had a friend who had to go change because his shirt displayed a gun too prominently.
AFAIK zero tolerance only applies for actually possessing something on campus (gun, fake gun, knife, ammo, etc). Everything else gets shoveled into the 'implied threats' category, which would be even more absurd than usual if it were in regards to a video showing how to properly clean a rifle.

jamesob
05-06-2009, 11:12 PM
i remember going dove hunting with my high school teacher before class started. after we hunted we both would go to school with our shotguns in our trucks, parked in the ag dept so he could keep an eye on them. now days they send the swat team if a dog smells a spent shell casing in your car in the parking lot of the school. can you imagine the hell teachers and the parents will raise if a video is shown of your daughter assembling an oll rifle? more power to you and your daughter for wanting to do it but i would stay away from the oll stuff. the justice system is so bad right now that i would not want a video of my oll rifle in the hands of one of my kids. remember we are in kalifornia after all.

wildhawker
05-06-2009, 11:21 PM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

I remember once holding a "how to disassemble and clean" presentation in school using a real-life rifle and Hoppes No. 9... that classroom had a particularly pleasant odor for days thereafter.

DDT has a point- if you're shooting film, the handgun would be easier to fit the frame and be clear. Watch some similar YouTube vids and see what makes the most sense.

pullnshoot25
05-06-2009, 11:34 PM
heh..... You're showing your age. Now, it's what Great Grandpa used in WWII, what Grandpa used in VietNam and what Dad had to buy for himself in Desert Storm.

HAHHAHHA!

I say do it and see if you can be there for the presentation day to make sure all goes well.

markw
05-07-2009, 12:13 AM
I think if we do the OLL, the opening will be her removing the magazine with a bullet, covering safety and checking to make sure the weapon is cleared. Yeah, I showed her the 11yo doing the field strip. I know some of the teachers over there and like I said pretty conservative, principle is OCD though. :) The requirements for the project are do a short video with 12-15 steps on how to do something people don't normally do. Field stripping an AR is something people don't normally do, and it's totally not PC for a high school project. I'm leaning towards the OLL over the pistol just because of that. This is an Honor Roll student that is doing it too.

The other thought is "How to reload ammo" :)

lorax3
05-07-2009, 12:17 AM
Any opinions?

As much as it would be an a good presentation, it may not be a wise idea. Not sure what kind of school we are taking about (elementary, middle,high) but with a zero tolerance policy these days I would recommend against it.

Worst case, I see a parent teacher conference in which the teacher is asking why you are teaching you daughter to act like a criminal. Of course this is not the case, but if it headed that way it will just make the next week of school suck for her.

It is great if she is interested in firearms and that you are teaching her proper safety, however firearms and school don't usually mix very well, especially with grammar and middle schools.

If you are set in doing a firearm related video I would not recommend an OLL. Keep is simple, with a basic rifle or shotgun. Something that doesn't look like an AW. A 10/22, a handgun or a shotgun.

If you do decide to do an OLL, give her a copy of the Calguns AW flowchart. ;)

Update: Well since it is a high school it does not seem as bad. Maybe an OLL will be fine. Having her ask the teacher in advance if that is okay might be a good step. I assumed she was young after watching the 11yo on the last page. She might suddenly become more popular with them east county boys. ;)

Let me know how it goes.

-lorax

markw
05-07-2009, 12:36 AM
I don't think we'll bother to "check" to see if it's ok. Again, I'm not from here, and had a WTF moment when I went to purchase my first firearm in this state. If you don't stand up for what is right, then they'll trample you. The only thing I see that can happen is that some teachers may flip out, I doubt it, but it could happen. I really think it will be a non-event though. I'll get it on Youtube before she shows it at school.

KWA-S
05-07-2009, 3:00 AM
Eh, the worst that can happen IMO is a suspension. I got one for doodling a stick figure and a stick gun. Principal gave me a lecture that guns were bad, they shoot innocents and do drivebys every day, blah blah blah, and said that drawing that was an implied threat. Also made me write a paper saying that I was wrong and brown nosing the Brady's on pain of expulsion (even though a principal cannot expel someone). My parents weren't too happy, and theres nothing on TV during the daytime. I seriously didn't enjoy watching Cosby.:chris:

Anyway, good luck, post the YouTube here.:popcorn:

Mayhem
05-07-2009, 3:33 AM
heh..... You're showing your age. Now, it's what Great Grandpa used in WWII, what Grandpa used in VietNam and what Dad had to buy for himself in Desert Storm.

wow. you all make me feel old now, I carried a m1911a1 and an m60 in the 80's and in the first gulf war. It doesn't feel like it was that long ago.

Sobriquet
05-07-2009, 3:52 AM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk131/Sobriquet47/this_wont_end_well.jpg

B Strong
05-07-2009, 6:16 AM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

Great idea that will get every wonk in the school bent out of shape, probably get the authorities involved, and you'll be the subject of a many page thread on WND.

Sad to say it, but in today's world, here in California, kids and guns are so sensitive a subject to the self appointed do-gooders that any mixture of the two, even under proper adult supervision, gets teachers and administrators into such a tizzy that it isn't worth it to pursue.

AEC1
05-07-2009, 6:50 AM
My 9 year old pictures of him shooting an OLL and him standing proudly over a pile of doves while cradling his 20 gauge in the clear sleaves of his binder. Was neve questioned about it. The bruses he had on his cheek and shoulder after 6 boxes of shotgun shells in 2 days, that was questioned. In fact that is the initial reason the pictures were sent to school. Nothing like using a firearm to defend yourself against a child abuse charge.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-07-2009, 7:08 AM
Great idea that will get every wonk in the school bent out of shape, probably get the authorities involved, and you'll be the subject of a many page thread on WND.

Sad to say it, but in today's world, here in California, kids and guns are so sensitive a subject to the self appointed do-gooders that any mixture of the two, even under proper adult supervision, gets teachers and administrators into such a tizzy that it isn't worth it to pursue.


IMHO, this is THE reason to do it. :)

Along with teaching the boys that this little girl knows guns. That's an excellent reason also.

The Raisuli

elrcastor
05-07-2009, 7:09 AM
I'd make it a 1911. I'd add it's what Grandpa used in WWII, What Dad used in Vietnam and what is used today adding a little history to it may also help with the teacher accepting the object you'll use.
heh..... You're showing your age. Now, it's what Great Grandpa used in WWII, what Grandpa used in VietNam and what Dad had to buy for himself in Desert Storm.


Well, I fall in to this age group too, and I'm only 29.

Theseus
05-07-2009, 8:44 AM
I say go for it! No guts, no glory!

I would also welcome the "authorities" if they felt like getting involved.

But I am a little more bullish when it comes to such things.

wash
05-07-2009, 8:45 AM
If you do it, I suggest you add a clip of how she gets the rifle dirty after the cleaning. Hopefully she'll have a nice group to show off.

leelaw
05-07-2009, 9:39 AM
Zero tolerance will kick in. Don't do it, it won't end well.

KCM222
05-07-2009, 9:50 AM
This could easily get your daughter suspended from school.

Remember the teacher that was suspended because she had a picture of herself holding a gun on her Facebook page? People flipped out about that and that was over an un-school related incident.

It's sad that school officials bury their heads in the sand when it comes to guns, but doing this is just asking for trouble. As much as these kids probably need some positive exposure to guns I wouldn't do this.


ETA: My wife is a public high school teacher and you wouldn't believe the kinds of things kids get expelled and suspended for.

KWA-S
05-07-2009, 10:37 AM
ETA: My wife is a public high school teacher and you wouldn't believe the kinds of things kids get expelled and suspended for.

Im curious to know what they've been suspended for, now...please share.

KCM222
05-07-2009, 10:52 AM
One kid was suspended for bringing a "knife" to school. The knife was a dinner knife he had in his lunch to spread some weird vegemite type spread. IE it was not a steak knife, or sharp in any way. It was the zero tolerance policy kicking in (and the kid was apparently a problem kid anyway).

Another was suspended from a specific class (sent to a detention hall for that specific period) because he refused to change an essay where he had capitalized a certain letter in all of his words. This is a gang thing, but arguably not suspension worthy.

There are a few other incidents that I probably shouldn't say because I really shouldn't know about them in the first place, but they could be extra shocking to me considering what doesn't award a suspension.

For instance one kid, who is literally crazy, has outlined specific plans on how he would kill other students indiscriminately, but he can't be "punished" because of legal reasons due to him being in special education. He is on medication now so the administration has dubbed him "fit" to be in school and also they don't have funding to send him somewhere else (since the district is required to pay for it if they can not accommodate his needs - thanks NCLB). I kid you not.

xrMike
05-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Definitely bounce the idea off the teacher first, then proceed (or not) accordingly.

KCM222
05-07-2009, 11:10 AM
Definitely bounce the idea off the teacher first, then proceed (or not) accordingly.

Even still, you get one uppity parent who complains to the administration and you can still have some bad news rain down on you.

petey
05-07-2009, 11:13 AM
Just tell the teacher that your child has been around firearms for years!

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fail-owned-baby-puzzle-fail.jpg?w=500&h=363

I wouldn't necessarily call that a FAIL

mrkubota
05-07-2009, 11:39 AM
Ok, here's the deal. My daughter has to do a howto video for her "Tech" class in high school. She wants to do it on cleaning/disassembling a gun. So I was like, ok, let's do the 10/22 or the pistol. She wants to use the OLL, because it's just 'bad a**'. I'm wondering how many teachers will get their panties in a bunch if she does it. I'm all for it, and we live in a fairly conservative area. But who knows. I showed her some field strip videos and we may go that way. Not sure yet, but I do believe my EBR is going to be on film. :) Any opinions?

An M2HB or 1919a4 would be way more interesting...
There's setting up the tripod and pintle
Mounting the gun and installing the barrel
mounting the T&E
properly headspacing the barrel
linking ammo
loading the linked/belted ammo into the gun
test firing

taking it back down and then field stripping to clean


I can't say I've ever seen a video of these procedures, though there are many pictorials of such

markw
05-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Zero tolerance will kick in. Don't do it, it won't end well.

Zero tolerance is about possession on school grounds. This is a video, she's not going to school packing... The school has no legal grounds to stand on with regards to a video.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/ss/se/zerotolerance.asp

Kevin3151
05-07-2009, 12:24 PM
If you cant wear a shirt with a gun printed on it, I doubt the video will go well.

I hope you dont like the teacher either, you are putting him or her in a difficult position.

KH

markw
05-07-2009, 12:40 PM
If you cant wear a shirt with a gun printed on it, I doubt the video will go well.

I hope you dont like the teacher either, you are putting him or her in a difficult position.

KH

The teacher is cool, it's someone else who's OCD. Looking into this further, they could possibly pull the zero-tolerance as it shows possession of a firearm, and while not on school grounds, it could be construed as a "school activity" but I'm having a hard time finding where "school activity" is defined. Fed rules are for bringing it onto school grounds.

wash
05-07-2009, 1:01 PM
If guns are too taboo, a how to reload ammunition video would be pretty cool.

No guns involved...

wash
05-07-2009, 1:02 PM
Maybe a wildcat round?

DRM6000
05-07-2009, 1:21 PM
it might be a good idea to run it by the teacher first. if the teacher is fine with it, have him/her run it by the principal and get permission in writing.

there was a story about a grade school boy who was suspended because he drew a "gun". the picture looked like an airplane with windows and all.

DDT
05-07-2009, 2:21 PM
The teacher is cool, it's someone else who's OCD.

Ah, so you are doing this fully expecting repercussions?

Please understand that you should have a back up plan for your daughter's education should staying in this school prove untenable even if she isn't expelled.

Jarrod
05-07-2009, 5:49 PM
The teacher is cool, it's someone else who's OCD. Looking into this further, they could possibly pull the zero-tolerance as it shows possession of a firearm, and while not on school grounds, it could be construed as a "school activity" but I'm having a hard time finding where "school activity" is defined. Fed rules are for bringing it onto school grounds.

I taught high school for years and can comment on this based on experience. In short, any teacher or school admin worth their salt is not going to allow this ... not if they have any brains at all.

You need to bear in mind that there are a lot of very strange parents out there, and they will completely flip out over this. Remember the Claremont parents who would not allow their children to dress up as pilgrims or indians before Thanksgiving? Our school even had parents threaten to sue because we did not supply their children with sunscreen as they stood outside during a 1 hour disaster drill.

No way, no how would I allow this and then have to deal with the angry parents, get the principal involved in fielding dozens of calls from angry parents, lawyers, and news reporters ... and then have to answer for this in front of the school board.

The VAST majority of what is wrong with the public school system is not the schools ... but the parents!

No way, no how.

CitaDeL
05-07-2009, 6:31 PM
I dont have kids. If I did, I doubt I would pollute them with a public school.

If this is something my child wanted to do as a project, I would make sure that they had whatever support they required. Were I in the OP's shoes, I would likely use the OLL, doing a little rundown on firearms safety (the four rules), a breif rundown on what an OLL is, the field strip and reassembly, and demonstrate the safe discharge of the firearm.

Gunowners need to stop permitting the Brady bunch Nancy pants dictate the level of exposure firearms get. This is an opportunity to exersize the first amendment by discussing the second. I wouldnt pass it up, particularly at a government funded public school.

leitung
05-07-2009, 6:34 PM
I wouldn't do it, it's poison nowadays. If you insist, run it by the teacher fist, I got away with a project on guns in high school, but I ran it by the teacher first..

AEC1
05-08-2009, 7:08 AM
I taught high school for years and can comment on this based on experience. In short, any teacher or school admin worth their salt is not going to allow this ... not if they have any brains at all.

You need to bear in mind that there are a lot of very strange parents out there, and they will completely flip out over this. Remember the Claremont parents who would not allow their children to dress up as pilgrims or indians before Thanksgiving? Our school even had parents threaten to sue because we did not supply their children with sunscreen as they stood outside during a 1 hour disaster drill.

No way, no how would I allow this and then have to deal with the angry parents, get the principal involved in fielding dozens of calls from angry parents, lawyers, and news reporters ... and then have to answer for this in front of the school board.

The VAST majority of what is wrong with the public school system is not the schools ... but the parents!

No way, no how.


use the fear of a lawsuit against them. Run it by the teacher, and when they say no, sue them for restricting your daughters right to free speach. We have a supreme court rulling the the 2A is an individual right, we have incorperation. Would we debate like this is we were talking about any other of our individual rights? We have to start comming at these issues from a position of power. Stop thinking that we are right wing loonies (I am though). We now have the same footing as the free speach, free press, human rights crowd, the Supreme Court Said so.

DDT
05-08-2009, 8:02 AM
use the fear of a lawsuit against them. Run it by the teacher, and when they say no, sue them for restricting your daughters right to free speach. We have a supreme court rulling the the 2A is an individual right, we have incorperation.

First off. If you are making a first amendment argument RKBA and incorporation have no bearing.

Right or wrong, and no matter the final disposition of any lawsuit, expulsion and demonization of this young girl are likely results. Unless you have the ability and she has the willingness to pack up and move or transfer to a private school this is a fools quest.

socal2310
05-08-2009, 8:22 AM
First off. If you are making a first amendment argument RKBA and incorporation have no bearing.

Right or wrong, and no matter the final disposition of any lawsuit, expulsion and demonization of this young girl are likely results. Unless you have the ability and she has the willingness to pack up and move or transfer to a private school this is a fools quest.

The last hurrah before they start homeschooling...

Easy enough for me to say, we already do :).

Ryan

AEC1
05-08-2009, 8:36 AM
First off. If you are making a first amendment argument RKBA and incorporation have no bearing.

Right or wrong, and no matter the final disposition of any lawsuit, expulsion and demonization of this young girl are likely results. Unless you have the ability and she has the willingness to pack up and move or transfer to a private school this is a fools quest.

How does the first amendment have no bearing? Do our children not have the right to do a report on a subject of their choice? The liberal left has us all acting like neutered sissy's.

My son is in a public school and has refused to do a paper on evalution, choosing instead to write about creation science. He wears his life member and other nra/2nd amendment t-shirts. he even did his science project on the physics of a riffle fireing a round. The school made a fuss, and i argued and won, it was an intresting meeting, me, the wife, the principal, teacher, and the Superintendant. me and the wife in NRA shirts. I think they were just affraid.

iand the school is in South San Diego, not Visalia...

Decoligny
05-08-2009, 8:47 AM
How does the first amendment have no bearing? Do our children not have the right to do a report on a subject of their choice? The liberal left has us all acting like neutered sissy's.

My son is in a public school and has refused to do a paper on evalution, choosing instead to write about creation science. He wears his life member and other nra/2nd amendment t-shirts. he even did his science project on the physics of a riffle fireing a round. The school made a fuss, and i argued and won, it was an intresting meeting, me, the wife, the principal, teacher, and the Superintendant. me and the wife in NRA shirts. I think they were just affraid.

iand the school is in South San Diego, not Visalia...

He never siad that the first amendment had no bearing, he said that the RKBA and Incorporation had no bearing on this being a first amendment arguement.

If she wanted to do a project on the proper way of butchering a hog, there would be people upset because Muslims and Jews don't eat pork.

If she wants to do a project on the proper assembly of a rifle, there will be people upset because "guns kill people".

Just let her do the project she wants and tell the naysayers at the school to go pound sand or you will see them in court.

AEC1
05-08-2009, 8:57 AM
He never siad that the first amendment had no bearing, he said that the RKBA and Incorporation had no bearing on this being a first amendment arguement.

If she wanted to do a project on the proper way of butchering a hog, there would be people upset because Muslims and Jews don't eat pork.

If she wants to do a project on the proper assembly of a rifle, there will be people upset because "guns kill people".

Just let her do the project she wants and tell the naysayers at the school to go pound sand or you will see them in court.

CAN I GET AN AMEN

Jarrod
05-08-2009, 9:41 AM
use the fear of a lawsuit against them.

The school's are already responding to lawsuit threats against them, by crazy parents. That is where many of the policies come from, i.e., avoiding liability.

All it takes is for some other kid, a year or two later, to bring a gun to school or be involved in a gun crime off campus (or, God-forbid, shoot up a school) and say he saw the gun cleaning video and every school employee connected to permitting the gun cleaning video is in a world of criminal and civil hurt ... and gonna have their faces plastered all over the nightly news.

Every whackjob parent, liberal and conservative alike, out there is blaming the schools for everything they can think of, rather than raising their children to respect their teachers and do their homework.

Several years ago one of our (black) students was murdered by a (mexican) gang because he was in their neighborhood throwing up gang signs at them. The gang members were adults and not affiliated with our school in any way. This kid was not on the way to school, or coming home from school, at the time. It was on his own time on the weekend. Guess what happened? The school was sued for not doing enough to prevent the murder.

Just take a long look at how parents are letting their children come dressed to school and you will see what is going on at home. As soon as the school tries to implement a dress code, the school is nailed with a lawsuit threat by a parent for infringing on the students' right to free speech.

[Disclaimer: I am not claiming that all parents are whackjobs. They certainly are not. However, a sufficiently high proportion of them are, and are not doing what they are supposed to do as parents, i.e., discipline their children.]

Why on earth would I, as a teacher, risk criminal and civil liability, as well as public humiliation and permanently lose my teaching credential (i.e., I never teach again, anywhere), so your kid can do a video on cleaning a gun?

Don't get me wrong. If this was the 1950s and culture was not the way it is now, I would have no problem with it. Heck, my son just turned 5 y/o and I am already shopping for his first .22 rifle.

Run it by the teacher, and when they say no, sue them for restricting your daughters right to free speach. We have a supreme court rulling the the 2A is an individual right, we have incorperation.

And the supreme court has already ruled, several times, that the school board and the school principal have broad discretion as to what speech is allowed on campus during school activities.

Trust me, after Columbine and in the current cultural climate, no school official is going to put his head on the chopping block for something like this. I sure as hell wouldn't, and I am an NRA member and avid shooter.

Would we debate like this is we were talking about any other of our individual rights? We have to start comming at these issues from a position of power. Stop thinking that we are right wing loonies (I am though). We now have the same footing as the free speach, free press, human rights crowd, the Supreme Court Said so.

Again, like I said, the SCOTUS (including the current conservative one) has already ruled on issues like this with regards to school grounds.

DDT
05-08-2009, 9:58 AM
Don't get me wrong. If this was the 1950s and culture was not the way it is now, I would have no problem with it. Heck, my son just turned 5 y/o and I am already shopping for his first .22 rifle.


Don't have to go that far back. In the late 70's I took a firearms safety class and a reloading class in middle school.

Jarrod
05-08-2009, 10:00 AM
Let me just remind you of what you guys would be asking of me, a public school teacher.

You're asking me to allow a project that will run the risk of me facing criminal and civil liabilites if anything goes wrong down the road (i.e., some kid gets a crazy idea from seeing the video). Not to mention risk losing my teaching credential and never teaching again for my entire life.

Yet, the parents of the child making the school project video will engender no risk. After all, what will happen is the argument "What? You allowed a video about guns in a school 2 years ago? And now this other kid who became a school shooter saw that video? What the heck were you thinking in allowing this around children? It is all your fault."

And for all you guys claiming we are a bunch of liberal whacko teachers who need to toughen up and take this kind of risk, I wonder how many of you guys are going to mortgage your home to help pay for my criminal and civil defense attorney, pay my bills now that I am unemployed and my family is screwed over from all the legal trauma and public humiliation?

Or are you just going to read about it in the paper, perhaps send a $100 donation to my defense fund, all the while shaking your head and saying "Wow, that sucks man"?

Lancear15
05-08-2009, 10:34 AM
My wife is a teacher and I can tell you the teacher could not let your daughter even play the video if she is so inclined. Then you would have to take it up with the principal if you want to push the issue. She will likely back up the teacher, kind of like the chief of police is almost always going to back up one of his officers. Then to the district superintendent. You could then take it to the school board. Again likely a fail there too. Then to a law suit? where does it end. Schools are where democracy is taught but never practiced. It is a totalitarian organization where the board(supposed to be your representative) is really almost always a puppet to the district superintendent. We live in an age of censorship where the FCC(established to enforce bandwidth licenses, now enforces content too. Schools can censor anything they please, except those things specifically protected under law. IE religion, gays, etc...

On the other hand the teacher might be a staunch lifetime NRA member, have no problem with it and give her an A.

I would first go to the teacher and get approval. Or in another week you might be helping your daughter make a new video. If that wont bother you then go for it without asking.

Lancear15
05-08-2009, 10:37 AM
I wonder how many of you guys are going to mortgage your home to help pay for my criminal and civil defense attorney, pay my bills now that I am unemployed and my family is screwed over from all the legal trauma and public humiliation?

Or are you just going to read about it in the paper, perhaps send a $100 donation to my defense fund, all the while shaking your head and saying "Wow, that sucks man"?

Isn't that what your union is for? Oh wait I forgot unions only care about collecting your dues and negotiating for higher wages so you can pay higher dues.

Jarrod
05-08-2009, 10:59 AM
Isn't that what your union is for? Oh wait I forgot unions only care about collecting your dues and negotiating for higher wages so you can pay higher dues.

For many years I was not a union member, but was expempt from union membership due to sincerely held (and documented) religious beliefs that proclude compulsory union membership.

The union did not even get my dues money, but those funds went directly to the American Cancer Society, i.e., an independant, 3rd party charity. (Anyone, regardless of political affiliation, religion, etc. is affected by cancer. Hence, my dues went to a non-partisan charity.)

Given this background, I can tell you that your comments above are unfair.

Lancear15
05-08-2009, 11:08 AM
For many years I was not a union member, but was expempt from union membership due to sincerely held (and documented) religious beliefs that proclude compulsory union membership.

The union did not even get my dues money, but those funds went directly to the American Cancer Society, i.e., an independant, 3rd party charity. (Anyone, regardless of political affiliation, religion, etc. is affected by cancer. Hence, my dues went to a non-partisan charity.)

Given this background, I can tell you that your comments above are unfair.

I'll leave further comments on unions for a different thread but I can tell you that I have been in the laborers union, teamsters union, and still am in the IBEW(internation brotherhood of electrical workers) and have a lot of disdain for unions. But your right my comment was exaggerated.

AEC1
05-08-2009, 11:43 AM
Just take a long look at how parents are letting their children come dressed to school and you will see what is going on at home. As soon as the school tries to implement a dress code, the school is nailed with a lawsuit threat by a parent for infringing on the students' right to free speech.

[Disclaimer: I am not claiming that all parents are whackjobs. They certainly are not. However, a sufficiently high proportion of them are, and are not doing what they are supposed to do as parents, i.e., discipline their children.]

And the supreme court has already ruled, several times, that the school board and the school principal have broad discretion as to what speech is allowed on campus during school activities.



So if the supreme court has ruled that the principal and school board have ruled the freespeach issue, what is your argument on dress codes again?

Your circular reasoning does not hold water. Face it you are scared and not willing to risk lossing your 90% retirement pay by standing up for your values. Basicly you lack the courage of your convictions...

Jarrod
05-08-2009, 12:14 PM
So if the supreme court has ruled that the principal and school board have ruled the freespeach issue, what is your argument on dress codes again?

Your circular reasoning does not hold water. Face it you are scared and not willing to risk lossing your 90% retirement pay by standing up for your values. Basicly you lack the courage of your convictions...

This is untrue. The SCOTUS has ruled about free speech codes one way, and ruled another about dress codes. Take it up with SCOTUS, and leave the ad hominem attacks on the playground.

AEC1
05-08-2009, 12:38 PM
I would but I am the product of the CA public school system and don't know what Ad hommininnm means

Lancear15
05-08-2009, 12:50 PM
I would but I am the product of the CA public school system and don't know what Ad hommininnm means

That is hilarious! But I do have to agree please don't attack Jarrod. Teachers have very difficult jobs and don't need the burden of 2A activism brought into their already stressful livelihood.

AEC1
05-08-2009, 12:54 PM
That is hilarious! But I do have to agree please don't attack Jarrod. Teachers have very difficult jobs and don't need the burden of 2A activism brought into their already stressful livelihood.

Then they shouldn't be activists, but that doesnt mean the teacher can tell the students that the student cant be.

I understand that teachers have it rough. I feel bad for my sons teachers. I am ALWAYS at the school asking questions and being involved. It lead me to being on the districts budget commitee and all kinds of crap. I have the superintendent's cell phone number... Funny thing is when I retire form the Navy there are two paths I am considering, Forestry service, and Troops to Teachers... I just hope I dont get a parent like me...

DDT
05-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Troops to Teachers... I just hope I dont get a parent like me...

That may be the most honest post in this whole thread.

lead chucker
05-08-2009, 12:57 PM
I would but I am the product of the CA public school system and don't know what Ad hommininnm means

Here ya go:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the person") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

AEC1
05-08-2009, 1:00 PM
Here ya go:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the person") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

So this is saying I am arguing just for arguments sake? Well why didnt you just say so... Thats right had to show your supperior edumacation and smartnes to this sailor!!;)

DDT
05-08-2009, 1:02 PM
So this is saying I am arguing just for arguments sake? Well why didnt you just say so... Thats right had to show your supperior edumacation and smartnes to this sailor!!;)

Apparently the sarcasm detection gene skipped a generation....

Turo
05-08-2009, 1:26 PM
Concerning High schools, I'll just say that the last 2 years of my High school education, I brought my compound bow to campus every thursday, for archery club. (pretty sure it is classified as a firearm/weapon, but they told me to bring it, so I did) Granted this was in Tulare (SJ valley) where teachers are more than likely to be gun aficionados anyway. But I also specifically remember doing a number of papers on guns, gun laws, gun physics, what have you, and was not questioned in the least. This isn't to say that you, OP, won't get any flak for doing this, but I'd say go for it. If anybody makes a fuss, tell 'em to shove it.

You aren't breaking ANY laws by allowing this, and if they start saying things like "you can't talk about guns here" claim 1A freedom and sue if it goes any further.

That said, it may be good for your daughter to let the teacher know that her report is on firearms and that she won't be bringing any to school, and nothing else. If the teacher has a problem with it, tell her/him that the assignment was to show how to do something that not many people do and let him/her know that they brought this upon themselves.

Not having lived in SD, I don't know how feelings toward guns are there, so my argument is probably better used where I live, but the principles are the same. And besides, you seem like the kind of guy that thinks similarly, so I would suggest not even making a big deal out of this and let it happen.

KWA-S
05-08-2009, 1:48 PM
I would but I am the product of the CA public school system and don't know what Ad hommininnm means

Eh, I don't blame the schools...most of the time, the teachers have to deal with the fact that most students simply don't care. When I took government in high school, I didn't retain the info past passing the class because, at that point, it did not really affect me. Only after I got interested in 2A politics that I learned how the courts work, who my representatives are, the intentions of the constitution, and what a right actually means.

Frankly, why SHOULD students care? You may argue that its important that each citizen know this and that, but from their perspective, their life isn't affected by this ruling or that legislation, so unless they are passionate about a certain legal issue, such as gun laws, gay rights, or legal marijuana, they're more concerned with getting wasted at Sarah's house Saturday night.

Also note, teaching are the most overworked and underpaid position in California. Teachers have to deal with students, parents, unions, and supervisors, rather than just a supervisor (or client or union in some cases) and are not compensated for time they spend after class to help tutor students or make better lectures, etc.

This thread is quickly becoming a flame war... recommend moderator action.

SeanCasey
05-08-2009, 2:02 PM
Wow things sure have gotten crazy in schools since I graduated in 2000.

I remember in my senior year government class I did a pro second ammendment power point presentation and including many pictures of guns and discussed the real reason behind the RKBA.

Now I admit it was eastern San Diego County (Granite Hills High School in El Cajon), and I had a very conservative teacher, but I remember him telling me how cool my presentation was.

Shoot, one year there for the revolutionary way one teacher did a renactment dressed in proper attire and even demonstrated the proper loading and firing procedures for a black poweder musket (except no bullet obviously).

But to suspend a school for drawing a gun?!?!?! Crap in middle school I'd draw entire stick figure battlefields being my impression of a NATO vs. USSR war.

Ok ranting done. Time to go sit and shake my head at what is becoming of everything.

lead chucker
05-08-2009, 2:31 PM
So this is saying I am arguing just for arguments sake? Well why didnt you just say so... Thats right had to show your supperior edumacation and smartnes to this sailor!!;)

Close - it's saying that you are arguing by attacking the person on the other side of the argument, rather than addressing that persons points.

Kind of like you are doing again here - Thats right had to show your supperior edumacation and smartnes to this sailor!

:43:

Lancear15
05-08-2009, 3:50 PM
But to suspend a school for drawing a gun?!?!?! Crap in middle school I'd draw entire stick figure battlefields being my impression of a NATO vs. USSR war.

Ok ranting done. Time to go sit and shake my head at what is becoming of everything.

Some schools you wont get suspended for punching another kid. Some schools you wont be suspended for getting caught smoking weed in the bathroom. Some schools you will get suspended for gyrating your hips while dancing on the playground. All of these I draw on from real life. Schools aren't fair or democratic. Will his daughter get in trouble? Almost without a doubt, no. Will she have to redo the lesson on a different topic? maybe. Much ado about nothing?

AEC1
05-08-2009, 4:21 PM
Actually I was not attacking any one person. Teachers and Police unions drive me absolutely nuts. Particularly those two because of the politics that they poke their noses into.

I felt bad about getting ready to draw a military pension of 50% of my base salary. My neighbor just retired as a teacher and was bragging about her 90% pension, medical and dental etc. Between that and the illegals it is no wonder our schools are broke...

Who says teachers have it bad now. My sons school the teachers dont grade anything, it is all scantron, even homework. The computer grades last nights homework, then generates tonights based on the score of last nights HW and todays classwork. The chalk boards, all electronic now, tied to the computer, it is amazing how much easier they have it now then when I was in school. Not that it is easy, but it aint what it used to be...

It wasnt until he gave me the vocabulary lesson that it got personal. before that it was purely about the policy and fear that the schools have. If you do one thing you offend this guy, if you do nothing you offend that guy. Guess what, who cares who you Offend. If I offend anyone, they have 2 choices, see a shrink and get over it, or sue me. I by nature have offended many I am sure (supprise) but have not ever been sued...

eltee
05-08-2009, 4:52 PM
I'd read the school rules and double check any potential zero tolerance issues. My daughter's science project a couple of years ago involved shooting into ballistic vests and determining penetration, then comparing the strength of kevlar to spider silk. The display included vest panels with holes, bullets that had been stopped, and photos of my daughter (then 10) holding a pistol and an "assault" :rolleyes: rifle.

Because there were no written prohibitions (plus, the school is pretty conservative and they all know I'm a cop) there were NO issues. The teacher even commented, jokingly, to my daughter that she looked pretty dangerous in the pictures.

If, however, there is a written rule about reference to guns, etc. I would use caution. I would also be sure to put some kind of disclaimer in fine print somewhere in the display, i.e., "This project was done under constant adult supervision. All safety procedures were strictly followed and no violations of any law were committed. Do not attempt to do any of what is shown here without adult supervision."

Jarrod
05-09-2009, 11:14 AM
I would but I am the product of the CA public school system and don't know what Ad hommininnm means

Like mentioned earlier, it means you were attacking me personally rather than attacking the argument I was making. You were also making a "straw man" argument too, i.e., setting up an easy to defeat argument that I did not really hold, and then forcing me to defend something I never argued in the first place.

Frankly, you don't know me from Adam, and have no basis for arguing what my motives really are, or are not.

But in one way, you are correct. I am concerned about losing my retirement as well as exposing myself to potential criminal and civil liabilities if something goes wrong later, not to mention permanent loss of my chosen profession and damage to my public reputation.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good reason to not take this kind of risk.

One last thing, to assign someone immoral motives like you have done (you were not attempting to compliment me) and use that as a means of dismissing the point I was making is not a sign of intellectual integrity nor courage.

(Editorial addition: BTW, just so you know, it is not a 90% retirement, but 60% after 30 years of service, i.e., 2% a year for 30 years. And this is paid for by me, i.e., 8.25% comes out of my paycheck every month.)

Jarrod
05-09-2009, 11:24 AM
So this is saying I am arguing just for arguments sake? Well why didnt you just say so... Thats right had to show your supperior edumacation and smartnes to this sailor!!;)

BTW, I just realized I missed the point that you are a sailor.

Thank you for your service.