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BigBamBoo
05-06-2009, 4:46 PM
Ok....with all the gun grabbing and political issues surrounding our guns and the "right" to keep them...I read LOTS of post or comments in post that if "they ever try and take our guns" that the cops and/or the military would not back that play.

Wow...can people really be that naive about this? Just scan through this forum...look at all the post about contact with LEO for minor issues such as speeding and then they discover there is a gun in the car.
Or about non educated LEO and BB,etc.

Now lets go back to the first AWB...I remember hearing the same thing at the local gun shops...about how no one was going to register their AR and that the cops and military would never really take a citizens gun,etc.

First off if a law/bill is passed that makes owning a gun...any gun...illegal...then its a LAW and that law will be enforced. End of discussion. If the 2nd Amendment is change or done away way...then it is no longer your RIGHT to anything.
Cops are not going to lose their job to stand up for a law they do not like just to spare a stranger.
In fact....go do a ride along some time. See how every day folks such as yourself get treated by LE.

See...the problem is that 99% of people are not self aware. They do not try and see their self from the stand point of a stranger...and a stranger with the job of enforcing laws.

Each and every one of you who reads this needs to stop and think...we all have our "type" or "class" of person we do not like or because of our own self standard thinks is weird because they do not run in your particular social circle. Be it the dread lock hippy with..or goth punk with the pierced lip,nose,etc...or the thug looking guy with all the tats...and on and on.

Now...your asking a person who has been trained to trust NO ONE and approached them expecting them to do something wrong to all of a sudden say gee...I do not like the laws I have sworn to protect...so I am going to look the other way???

I have had this discussion with my LE buddies...they all say pretty much the same thing. They are taught there is two kinds of people in the world...those "on the job" and perps. And after years of dealing with dirt bags,lies,thief's,etc...they tend to get disconnected and really could care less.

So expecting to have the "good guys" on your side if things get put in to place that the Libs would like to enact....I think you might be REALLY let down.

Give me your opinion...let the flames begain!

Peace,Stan

Corbin Dallas
05-06-2009, 4:49 PM
I agree. They have a job to do and will do it without hesitation.

Vtec44
05-06-2009, 4:52 PM
They are taught there is two kinds of people in the world...those "on the job" and perps.

This is confirmed by my friend who works for the LA County Sheriff department.

Alaric
05-06-2009, 4:52 PM
I agree for the most part. I think a few 2nd Amd. enlightened individuals in LE or Military roles might think twice, but orders are orders and laws are laws. When they see their colleagues enforcing gun-confiscation orders, there'll be very little room for them not to.

It's either that or get fired or tried for treason/dereliction of duty/failure to follow a lawful order.

SkyStorm82
05-06-2009, 4:54 PM
This is confirmed by my friend who works for the LA County Sheriff department.

So are you "on the job" or are you a "perp"


Funny. Yet another thing I don't recall being taught at the academy...

shooting4life
05-06-2009, 4:57 PM
They are taught there is two kinds of people in the world...those "on the job" and perps.


+1

:inquis:

CavTrooper
05-06-2009, 4:59 PM
I trust myself and my Federal Military partners, LE and NG, not so much. :eek: ;)

kermit315
05-06-2009, 5:05 PM
there is a difference between orders and lawful orders.

I dont believe it would be a lawful order, and would not follow it.

read between the lines

pbwhite
05-06-2009, 5:06 PM
i cant speak for the entire DOD but i can speak for myself and when, notice i say when not if.. a situation does occur every military service member should remember their oath they took at least once in there hitch with Uncle Sam and especially the first few lines..
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The hard part to determine is who is the enemy? The guy who has the 9mm to defend his family or the guy telling him to take the 9mm. I hope that everyone will have enough intestinal fortitude to stand up for the right person. no matter what the consequences.

BigBamBoo
05-06-2009, 5:13 PM
Well....this has been posted before...but here ya go...if it can happen to this old lady......

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Vtec44
05-06-2009, 5:32 PM
So are you "on the job" or are you a "perp"


Funny. Yet another thing I don't recall being taught at the academy...

Not necessarily being tought at the academy, but that's their attitude when dealing with people in general.

rabagley
05-06-2009, 5:39 PM
Anyone who thinks that 99% of cops won't enforce a completely unconstitutional gun-seizure law are smoking the good stuff. Cops think of themselves as hard workers, putting food on the table for their family. Further, most of them really like what they do. You're going to have to come up with a pretty strong alternative motivation for a cop to walk away from his job.

The debate is: in the scenario where the S truly hits the F, what fraction of the armed military will abandon their post and, with their arms, join a credible constitutional rebellion? The real answer: all depends on how credible a rebellion. Which then goes to effective propaganda on both sides and a lot of variables that aren't close to being resolved yet.

Theseus
05-06-2009, 6:33 PM
I would argue that there are enough people out there that might just give them some very strong and compelling reasons not to do their jobs when it comes to confiscation.


Anyone who thinks that 99% of cops won't enforce a completely unconstitutional gun-seizure law are smoking the good stuff. Cops think of themselves as hard workers, putting food on the table for their family. Further, most of them really like what they do. You're going to have to come up with a pretty strong alternative motivation for a cop to walk away from his job.

The debate is: in the scenario where the S truly hits the F, what fraction of the armed military will abandon their post and, with their arms, join a credible constitutional rebellion? The real answer: all depends on how credible a rebellion. Which then goes to effective propaganda on both sides and a lot of variables that aren't close to being resolved yet.

hawk81
05-06-2009, 6:59 PM
All you have to look at is the Nazi's before world war 2. Everyone complied with Hitlers fascist socialist party. The citizens loved it. Our dumbed down United States citizens are no different.

cortayack
05-06-2009, 7:14 PM
Question is who will give up their guns when they strike down the 2nd amendment and come knocking????

I know one thing, we out numbered them, but we are unorganized...Taking us out one by one is to their advantage.....Calgunsmilitia?

wash
05-06-2009, 7:23 PM
LEO's will only tollerate a few officers getting their heads blown off before they decide to re-think confiscation.

lioneaglegriffin
05-06-2009, 7:57 PM
Well....this has been posted before...but here ya go...if it can happen to this old lady......

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they passed a law against this even Barry vote for it, his sole progun vote.

movie zombie
05-06-2009, 8:01 PM
I agree. They have a job to do and will do it without hesitation.

i believe that the government forces no matter what they are called will fire upon we the people or remove our weapons of protection if so ordered. vets have been fired on, Kent State campus students, etc.; therefore, this country already has a history of this happening and Katrina only served as a wake up call that given the opportunity, they will take it.

mz

BigBamBoo
05-06-2009, 8:05 PM
they passed a law against this even Barry vote for it, his sole progun vote.

Your right!! Go back and re-read what you just wrote....do you get it?

THEY PASSED A LAW.....now what happens when they PASS A LAW that say no more gun ownership...get it now?

planedude86
05-06-2009, 8:05 PM
I'm quite certain that the idea of LE and military rushing to gun owners' aid is a delusion. Destroying the 2nd amendment is not a drastic, obvious process. On the contrary, the process is somewhat subtle and quietly gains support. Anti-gun thinking has been institutionalized in many aspects of LE and military service. A firearm in a citizen's hands is viewed as a threat. Even soldiers on base, entrusted to defend the Constitution, cannot keep their personal firearms in their homes.

One only needs to review the various stories here of gun owners being harassed to glimpse the scary, institutionalized erosion of our rights. Sadly, even some LEOs here show a willingness to do unconstitutional acts, even to the point of putting generally law abiding gun owners away. Some have misconceptions about search and seizure law, while others will make the arrest because "the law is the law even if it's wrong." One LEO here still believes that one can perform a search incident to arrest for a CVC violation (see Gant). Another one has the understanding that one must identify themselves with government-issued ID upon demand (see Kolender v. Lawson). One said he'd arrest a young man with a high cap magazine and "let the lawyers sort it out." If we have these problems among our supporters, what about antigun LE?

When the order comes, they will want to keep their jobs. When the order comes, it won't be in the form of superiors saying, "Go grab every gun from Joe and Jane Citizen." LE and military will be told of the need to disarm terrorists "under these extraordinary circumstances."

I've been lurking these forums for much longer than my join date indicates. I am amazed at all that has been accomplished since 2005; however, I am still cautious about what is to come.

WyoDuner
05-06-2009, 8:09 PM
LEO's will only tollerate a few officers getting their heads blown off before they decide to re-think confiscation.

Possibly.... But who among us are going to be the first ones fighting back and getting killed in the process???

To me that is what it really comes down to. I would like think that I would fight to the death to protect my civil liberties from a unconstitutional government but.... Would I die fo that? Would I leave my family fatherless for that? Would I go on the run and give up my home, job, everything for that?

As was mentioned - it all comes down to being organized. It is easy for us to be picked off one by one, door to door. But not so easy when the masses are fighting back as an arganized group.

BTW, we are NOT organized and right now we would be easy pickens when "they" come knocking....

glockman19
05-06-2009, 8:14 PM
I have NO FAITH in any of them. They will do what they are told.

pbwhite
05-06-2009, 8:17 PM
actually plane dude 86 you are mistaken. i live on base and have a few guns in my home. The young Marines that live in the barracks are not allowed to have any weapons including knives over 6" in their quarters. the only requirement is to give your serial numbers to the provost marshall officer in case there is a burglary in base housing.

pbwhite
05-06-2009, 8:19 PM
WOW i hope i am told to post this reply about how ignorant glockman19 is

Seesm
05-06-2009, 8:21 PM
I think if told to do there job and grab guns "SOME" would do just that. But for the ones that would do there jobs (which would be wrong IMHO) others would go rougue and fight with US to save the USA!!

I love cops and may become a LEO sometime, but I will for sure not follow those orders at ALL! And having said that I WILL die for my right and your rights. My gun rights are only my 2nd of many rights and seem pretty important so dying is a distinct possibility.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 8:24 PM
Pbwhite,
I hope I'm proven wrong. I just think Military & LE will follow orders and confiscate. Most are trained to follow orders not think for them selves.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 8:34 PM
Pbwhite,
I hope I'm proven wrong. I just think Military & LE will follow orders and confiscate. Most are trained to follow orders not think for them selves.

Really? I never received a training class on how not to think for myself or how to follow unlawful orders.

How are you basing your assumption? So how many years in the military or LE do you have to come to that conclusion?

kermit315
05-06-2009, 8:35 PM
As I said above, there is a difference between an order and a lawful order. Standing up for what is right happens more often than you think in the military, you just dont hear about it.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 8:45 PM
Kermit,
If a law is passed and you are ordered by your superior to enforce it I think LE & Military will. What happens to you if you don't?
Durring WWII people did WHATEVER was necessary to survive...because many were following lawful orders.

pbwhite
05-06-2009, 8:45 PM
This just proves that no matter how much people say they appreciate the troops we are still just mindless robots in the civilian sectors eyes. your welcome for the freedom of speech.:patriot:

kermit315
05-06-2009, 8:51 PM
Kermit,
If a law is passed and you are ordered by your superior to enforce it I think LE & Military will. What happens to you if you don't?
Durring WWII people did WHATEVER was necessary to survive...because many were following lawful orders.

There are many within the DOD bubble that believe we are already on a road to civil war II. I will not lay out any plan on something that may or may not ever happen, but I will do as my oath says, and support and defend the constitution of the United States, from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

Thats the best answer you will get from me on this subject for now. If you dont have any faith, thats fine, its your perogative. But answer me this: How many civilians do you think will stand up for the constitution against those that would be knocking on their doors?

glockman19
05-06-2009, 8:52 PM
Pbwhite,
Please don't twist this into a lack of appreciation thing. I NEVER said you were mindless and certianly didn't imply any disrespect.
What happens if you do not follow an order by a superior to enforce a legally implemented law?

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 8:54 PM
Kermit,
If a law is passed and you are ordered by your superior to enforce it I think LE & Military will. What happens to you if you don't?
Durring WWII people did WHATEVER was necessary to survive...because many were following lawful orders.

I am still waiting for you to answer to my question?

What are you basing your assumption on and how many years in the military or LE did you serve to come to that conclusion?

dustoff31
05-06-2009, 8:56 PM
I am still waiting for you to answer to my question?

What are you basing your assumption on and how many years in the military or LE did you serve to come to that conclusion?

He answered it. He has absolutely no basis for that opinion other than he believes it.

kermit315
05-06-2009, 8:57 PM
Pbwhite,
Please don't twist this into a lack of appreciation thing. I NEVER said you were mindless and certianly didn't imply any disrespect.
What happens if you do not follow an order by a superior to enforce a legally implemented law?

current day scenario: OTH or Bad Conduct/dishonorable discharge. Used to be they shot you for treason, depending on the circumstances, but if people can stand at the end of the pier because they refuse to go to war, and toss their ID cards in the water and only get an OTH, I doubt they are going to shoot those that refuse to get up in arms against their fellow Americans.

Might get locked up, never know.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 8:57 PM
He answered it. He has absolutely no basis for that opinion other than he believes it.


Just wanted to hear him say it.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 8:57 PM
kermit,
I have faith in people. I have faithbin you and others who express similar views.
Many however will do what they are told.
I would love to hear more on CWII. PM me if you can.

calixt0
05-06-2009, 9:00 PM
they can have mine after they prove that I don't need or want em

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 9:02 PM
kermit,
I have faith in people. I have faithbin you and others who express similar views.
Many however will do what they are told.
I would love to hear more on CWII. PM me if you can.

If you have faith in people, how can you come to the conclusion that many people would do what they are told? That is a lack of faith in people IMHO.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 9:04 PM
I have not served in LE or military.

I went to college.

Happy now?

glockman19
05-06-2009, 9:07 PM
No...I just know human nature.

planedude86
05-06-2009, 9:09 PM
actually plane dude 86 you are mistaken. i live on base and have a few guns in my home. The young Marines that live in the barracks are not allowed to have any weapons including knives over 6" in their quarters. the only requirement is to give your serial numbers to the provost marshall officer in case there is a burglary in base housing.

Thank you for correcting me on that. My wires were crossed, and I was thinking of another situation. You are quite correct.

5968
05-06-2009, 9:11 PM
I would argue that there are enough people out there that might just give them some very strong and compelling reasons not to do their jobs when it comes to confiscation.

I would say we have the numbers, but not enough of us have the balls.:rolleyes:

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 9:14 PM
I have not served in LE or military.

I went to college.

Happy now?

Happy? How can someone in the military or LE be happy when someone believes (as you do) that we are all mindless drones who cannot think for ourselves and will follow any order that is given, regardless if it's unconstitutional. Sure there will be some,however, the majority will not follow unconstitutional orders. Why do I think that? Military and LE experience plus according to Obama the military cannot be trusted to defend the homeland and therefore he must have his private army. Why? Because he knows the military will not back him when he tries to outlaw guns and that is why IMHO his administration is trying to vilify members of the military in the DHS report.

kermit315
05-06-2009, 9:14 PM
kermit,
I have faith in people. I have faithbin you and others who express similar views.
Many however will do what they are told.
I would love to hear more on CWII. PM me if you can.

PM sent.

BobB35
05-06-2009, 9:17 PM
Ah yes the "I'll defend the constitution crowd" is out in force. What the he**have you people been doing for the last 60 years. The constitution has been torn up, shredded and used as toilet paper since FDR, so what exactly are you going to defend?

A limited republican form of government that respect the right of citizens, well I don't know what color the sky is in your world but that ship sailed long ago.


From Lincoln (New York riots) to FDR (McCarther firing on Veterens camping of the mall) to BO (right wing extremist) this country has already made war on it's citizens in violation of the constitution. Heck most people don't know what has already happened let alone what will happen.

When push comes to shove there will be no overt gun grabbing, it will be clothed in some form of immediate need to secure the country and the LEO and military will march out and dutifully "Secure" people firearms for "National Security".
Heck look at the Patriot ACT, biggest destruction of personal liberty in 30 years and it was held up as a great thing. People will give up freedoms for security every time, until they have neither left.

So please save me from the "I'll do what's right", because the 95% of the people will just lock your a** up and then go on to carry out the illegal order anyway.

Rant away

NiteQwill
05-06-2009, 9:20 PM
I have not served in LE or military.

I went to college.

Happy now?

You just stepped on a lot of toes here. Tread lightly, especially among the demographics of forums members here.

bondmid003
05-06-2009, 9:26 PM
Lets not confuse the National Guard with the rest of the military. The military can NEVER be used to police the citizens of the United States unless during a state of martial law. This law is called Posse Comitatus, therefore you will never see Marines knocking on doors confiscating weapons

Tillers_Rule
05-06-2009, 9:29 PM
Whoever thinks when they come to take our guns, it will be with a polite knock on the door and a "Please hand them over" is also delusional.

My bet would be slowly but surely and by relating laws. Example, you get caught speeding, they take a gun, something stupid like that. Also, maybe they'll come by in the middle of the day when everyone's at work so they won't be around their guns to even be able to access them and resist.

I was in the military and I can tell you, they're not going to tell the military or LE things like, "We're going to take every ones guns". It will be something like, "There's a group of domestic terrorists hoarding guns and ammo" or, "They have children hostage in there". They will add the spin and get the public's support on their agenda. Maybe wait (or perpetuate) another mass shooting in a mall or something and use the crisis to begin the process.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts, condensed.

glockman19
05-06-2009, 9:33 PM
You just stepped on a lot of toes here. Tread lightly, especially among the demographics of forums members here.

Why?

Because I think that LE & military will uphold the law?

I always phrased my comments as "many" not all. I won't be baited into an argument with lrdchivalry upon comments I never made.

I am and always have been respectful and supportive of our LE & Military.

dustoff31
05-06-2009, 9:33 PM
Ah yes the "I'll defend the constitution crowd" is out in force. What the he**have you people been doing for the last 60 years. The constitution has been torn up, shredded and used as toilet paper since FDR, so what exactly are you going to defend?

A limited republican form of government that respect the right of citizens, well I don't know what color the sky is in your world but that ship sailed long ago.


From Lincoln (New York riots) to FDR (McCarther firing on Veterens camping of the mall) to BO (right wing extremist) this country has already made war on it's citizens in violation of the constitution. Heck most people don't know what has already happened let alone what will happen.

When push comes to shove there will be no overt gun grabbing, it will be clothed in some form of immediate need to secure the country and the LEO and military will march out and dutifully "Secure" people firearms for "National Security".
Heck look at the Patriot ACT, biggest destruction of personal liberty in 30 years and it was held up as a great thing. People will give up freedoms for security every time, until they have neither left.

So please save me from the "I'll do what's right", because the 95% of the people will just lock your a** up and then go on to carry out the illegal order anyway.

Rant away

I can't argue with most of what you say, especially this:

People will give up freedoms for security every time, until they have neither left.

So ultimately, who are the one's failing in their duty to the constitution?

bondmid003
05-06-2009, 9:36 PM
Ok i'm going to chime in again, as a Marine i'm going to call bullcrap on the people talking about a "Civil War II", you have absolutely no basis for such "sky is falling" statements and to say you know people in the government or the military that are talking about such things is ridiculous.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 9:37 PM
Ah yes the "I'll defend the constitution crowd" is out in force. What the he**have you people been doing for the last 60 years.

I haven't been alive for 60 years. Care to answer your own question? What have you been doing for the last 60 years?

The constitution has been torn up, shredded and used as toilet paper since FDR, so what exactly are you going to defend?

The constitution. What are you going to defend?


A limited republican form of government that respect the right of citizens, well I don't know what color the sky is in your world but that ship sailed long ago.

Defeatest attitude. So what your saying is let's just give up? Oh! By the way, the sky is blue.


From Lincoln (New York riots) to FDR (McCarther firing on Veterens camping of the mall) to BO (right wing extremist) this country has already made war on it's citizens in violation of the constitution. Heck most people don't know what has already happened let alone what will happen.

So your recommendation is to give up?

When push comes to shove there will be no overt gun grabbing, it will be clothed in some form of immediate need to secure the country

The only thing I will agree with you on.

and the LEO and military will march out and dutifully "Secure" people firearms for "National Security".

I disagree with you.

So please save me from the "I'll do what's right", because the 95% of the people will just lock your a** up and then go on to carry out the illegal order anyway.

Please.. Save me from the defeatist mentality of it's going to happen so I am going to lay down and give up because of this unfounded idea of 95% of military or LE will lock your a** up.

bondmid003
05-06-2009, 9:40 PM
Honestly, this thread is ridiculous. It's nothing but hypothetical 'sky is falling' statements that make us all look like a bunch of crazies.

kermit315
05-06-2009, 9:41 PM
Ok i'm going to chime in again, as a Marine i'm going to call bullcrap on the people talking about a "Civil War II", you have absolutely no basis for such "sky is falling" statements and to say you know people in the government or the military that are talking about such things is ridiculous.



yep, I dont know what I heard......


thanks for clearing that up, I was confused.

dustoff31
05-06-2009, 9:44 PM
Honestly, this thread is ridiculous. It's nothing but hypothetical 'sky is falling' statements that make us all look like a bunch of crazies.

Too late. We like guns. We've already received that brand. Some of us are also potential terrorists.

pbwhite
05-06-2009, 9:44 PM
okay this is getting twisted and our panties are all getting in a bunch. here is the bottom line if I was ever told to go to your house and seize your weapons and that order was from anyone. i would tell them to pack sand or i would not be around to even hear that command i hear canada is nice. i am a patriot i love my country i love the Marine corps and i love my family. i will take care of them and provide safety and security for them. i will not ever take away any Americans citizens rights.

Phillip White
SSgt/USMC
10 yrs faithful service
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

biznacho
05-06-2009, 9:45 PM
Here's the answer everybodies been looking for:
http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 9:47 PM
Why?

Because I think that LE & military will uphold the law?

I always phrased my comments as "many" not all. I won't be baited into an argument with lrdchivalry upon comments I never made.

I am and always have been respectful and supportive of our LE & Military.

I am not baiting you into anything. I asked to give me the basis for your assumption and you could not do it. I asked you how many years you spent in the military or as an LE and you dodged the question until I pressed you for an answer.

bondmid003
05-06-2009, 9:52 PM
yep, I dont know what I heard......


thanks for clearing that up, I was confused.

So because you 'heard' this country is going to enter another civil war that makes it true? Don't spin these people up with hypothetical statements you claim to have on 'good authority'

glockman19
05-06-2009, 9:52 PM
okay this is getting twisted and our panties are all getting in a bunch. here is the bottom line if I was ever told to go to your house and seize your weapons and that order was from anyone. i would tell them to pack sand or i would not be around to even hear that command i hear canada is nice. i am a patriot i love my country i love the Marine corps and i love my family. i will take care of them and provide safety and security for them. i will not ever take away any Americans citizens rights.

Phillip White
SSgt/USMC
10 yrs faithful service
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

Thank you. Obviously I have not been addressing you. I believe there are many like you.

BobB35
05-06-2009, 9:53 PM
Not defeatist, just think Jefferson was right and sometime the tree of Liberty needs to be watered with the blood of patriots.

This country can not be saved through the ballot box, it will take something more drastic then that. So here is the question for you. A rebellion is a enemy domestic. Do you fight those that are trying to save the republic or do you "Follow orders and take them down?"

Lincoln violated the constitution and started the civil war. He was wrong in every way shape and form yet he won so he was right. Perplexing isn't it? What do you defend? An order from a superior? a document that has arbitrary meaning (For most in this country)? The guy next to you in the foxhole?

I served in Uncle Sam's Misguided children for 8 years and in my experience, if the order came down it would be executed with the full competence and authority that could be brought to bear.

So in response to your attempted slight, No I am not a defeatist, I am a realist. If you really think that soldiers will refuse orders you really need to go research the topic. I believe there was Army times poll about this a few years back and overwhelming the respondents said they would follow orders. Psych testing done to try to determine the cause of atrocities during Nazism showed conclusively that people follow orders without question.

This is not a matter of right vs wrong this is human nature v extraordinary nature. This country was founded by extraordinary people and what it has become is a result of human nature....

glockman19
05-06-2009, 10:01 PM
I am not baiting you into anything. I asked to give me the basis for your assumption and you could not do it. I asked you how many years you spent in the military or as an LE and you dodged the question until I pressed you for an answer.

Since you decided to post my PM to you I will respond;

You have misquoted me. You have been overly aggressive. I answered your sill question. sorry not quick enough, I was watching the Lakers in the jaccuzzi and on CG on my i-phone and got out to use the laptop, no wireless in the back of the propety, so you pressed me for nothing.

This will be the last I comment on this thread as there is nothing more I can add.

You seem very young I'd guess 22-23. I could have a child your age. Have a little respect for others opinion...and the reason I PM'd you is so I wouldn't have to call out your immaturity in public. I was even nice about it. If you are smart you'll let it die and move on.

kermit315
05-06-2009, 10:04 PM
So because you 'heard' this country is going to enter another civil war that makes it true? Don't spin these people up with hypothetical statements you claim to have on 'good authority'

And because you havent heard it, that means it isnt.

My basis is my business. You dont know a lot of things about the military, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt happen.

I call "bullcrap" on you knowing what I have heard, and how credible the source(s) may or may not be.



bondmid003 Ok i'm going to chime in again, as a Marine i'm going to call bullcrap on the people talking about a "Civil War II", you have absolutely no basis for such "sky is falling" statements and to say you know people in the government or the military that are talking about such things is ridiculous.

kermit315
05-06-2009, 10:07 PM
So because you 'heard' this country is going to enter another civil war that makes it true? Don't spin these people up with hypothetical statements you claim to have on 'good authority'

Also, I said people within the DOD bubble (you know, where we work) believe that we are on a road to CWII. Prove me wrong, please. Just do that, prove me wrong.

Guess what, you cant. You shouldnt discount what other people have to say just because it doesnt coincide with what you "know".

BobB35
05-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Also, I said people within the DOD bubble (you know, where we work) believe that we are on a road to CWII. Prove me wrong, please. Just do that, prove me wrong.

Guess what, you cant. You shouldnt discount what other people have to say just because it doesnt coincide with what you "know".

Kermit,

I am going to agree with you. This country is on the way to another Civil war. The country is seriously Balkanizing. You have about 2-3 million combat trained vets coming home with a serious distrust of the current government. A bad economy and an administration and Federal government that thinks they are all going to become terrorist.

I think it will start with another succession, probable TX or some other midwestern state. What will be interesting is will the Liberal Coastal state be able to provide enough cannon fodder to subdue the successors. Heck if N/S Dakota or Missouri go the nuke are in play.

Personally I think if TX goes you will get a large portion of the midwest to go along and the balance of the country will do nothing, no stomach for a stand up fight. If you look at where the energy is/will be you will see that the middle states hold the power and are making the most noise about sovereignty.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 10:39 PM
Since you decided to post my PM to you I will respond;

I didn't post your pm in the forum and just got finished replying to it.

You have misquoted me. You have been overly aggressive. I answered your sill question. sorry not quick enough, I was watching the Lakers in the jaccuzzi and on CG on my i-phone and got out to use the laptop, no wireless in the back of the propety, so you pressed me for nothing.

Overly aggressive? I just asked some questions and noticed that you avoided answering them yet posted to other who posted after I did and decided to call you on it.


You seem very young I'd guess 22-23. I could have a child your age.

After 9 years in the Army and 11 years as a federal LEO your way off base.

Have a little respect for others opinion...and the reason I PM'd you is so I wouldn't have to call out your immaturity in public. I was even nice about it. If you are smart you'll let it die and move on.

I do have respect for others opinions. All I did was ask you for a basis for your assumptions and you avoided the questions.Lack of maturity? I am not the one who has know resulted in name calling. Nice try.

Suvorov
05-06-2009, 10:43 PM
My oath was:

I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.

I don't see what part of this includes obeying orders that violate the Constitution :confused:

My current oath of office is very similar...

Certainly there are pinheads who will follow any order they are given, just like there are a lot of sheep within the civilian and non-leo ranks who will do whatever Big Brother tells them, but I think the military and leo community as a whole are much more opposed to what is going on than the general public is.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 10:46 PM
My oath was:



I don't see what part of this includes obeying orders that violate the Constitution :confused:

Agreed!

I took the same oath when I joined the Army and when I was hired as a federal leo.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 10:49 PM
Kermit,

I am going to agree with you. This country is on the way to another Civil war. The country is seriously Balkanizing. You have about 2-3 million combat trained vets coming home with a serious distrust of the current government. A bad economy and an administration and Federal government that thinks they are all going to become terrorist.

I think it will start with another succession, probable TX or some other midwestern state. What will be interesting is will the Liberal Coastal state be able to provide enough cannon fodder to subdue the successors. Heck if N/S Dakota or Missouri go the nuke are in play.

Personally I think if TX goes you will get a large portion of the midwest to go along and the balance of the country will do nothing, no stomach for a stand up fight. If you look at where the energy is/will be you will see that the middle states hold the power and are making the most noise about sovereignty.

Agreed? Any predictions? I say within 2 years.

BobB35
05-06-2009, 10:50 PM
My oath was:



I don't see what part of this includes obeying orders that violate the Constitution :confused:

Your argument makes the base assumption that those sworn to defend the Constitution actually know what is in it. Given what I have seen I doubt less than 5% of the people actually know what the Constitution actually says. Combine that with all of the destruction and shredding since Lincoln and FDR and now things are really confusing. Heck the current administration believes the constitution means whatever they want it to. Where exactlly is the part of the constution that allows them to take my taxes and give them to private companies?

So you see the problem. How can people be expected to defend that which they do not understand? They can't, ergo they will follow orders as soldiers have done since the beginning of time...the white knights will become the first victims of the revolution...

BobB35
05-06-2009, 10:53 PM
Agreed? Any predictions? I say within 2 years.


I predict by 2020, the economy is going to continue to deteriorate and things will get worse as the Boomers start to retire. By 2015 the cracks will be spreading and the rhetoric will have reached a fevered pitch.....

phamkl
05-06-2009, 10:54 PM
First off, I don't own any guns right now so I couldn't arm myself for any militia if it came down to that [although I suppose someone would probably be happy to lend me an SKS or something...]

But I'm going to be honest - I have no stomach for the blood of patriots. I hope and pray that it doesn't come down to civil war because that would mean fighting against the government's military which, of course, consists of the people fighting for our freedom right now. The whole self-aware thing, and being able to see it from the other side - I just can't see myself firing at someone who would've died for my rights (even if they've become the people to take them away.) I would much rather bypass the soldiers and take the battle to the legislature which is exactly what seems to be happening now with Nordyke, Heller, and the cases involving government approved handguns.

I'm not saying that we should not organize. Mostly that amidst this talk of revolution brewing, we should not forget that the system may yet still work. As you can see, I'm a bit of an idealist and an optimist.

Of course, the Whiskey Rebellion, though unsuccessful, reminded President Washington exactly what he fought against a few years earlier.

lrdchivalry
05-06-2009, 11:00 PM
I predict by 2020, the economy is going to continue to deteriorate and things will get worse as the Boomers start to retire. By 2015 the cracks will be spreading and the rhetoric will have reached a fevered pitch.....

Well at least that gives me more time to stock up on ammo and get ready to fight. I need to buy land in texas.

Deadred7o7
05-06-2009, 11:00 PM
zGHlvnqPdH0

becxltoo984
05-06-2009, 11:00 PM
Imagine a Katrina type situation in the Greater LA area . This is what would scare the sh*t out of me .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsLjNUdEWc4

b18bturboek9
05-06-2009, 11:34 PM
i have buddies in LE and i know they'd all say "you want me to take someones gun and right to own it, why so i can get shot trying to take them no way. But i dont know what would happen if they went door to door because i'd tell them to go F themself because the government might be in control of passing laws but not all laws are right no matter who passes them.

turbosbox
05-07-2009, 12:01 AM
"My dad can beat up your dad"...is what these threads remind me of. The ones who keep bringing up a poll: "who are non-loyal military and LE people?". List here the ones who will declare they won't follow orders in the future. All hypothetical at best. Neither can you be sure that order would ever come, or that the people who state they would or would not follow it will actually do what they boldly proclaimed.
And while we are at it "let's organize". Geez, I think most of those saying it couldn't even organize a decent picnic, let alone a rebellion. Also it reflects their lack of IQ, in that trying to organize an anti-LE, anti-military, anti-government group, would be defeatist! These so called militias would be a clown fest. They WOULD draw the security folks to them and force their hand to take away their weapons and ill thought out plans of anarchy.
Where are the threads of electing different folks who MAKE the rules, and impeaching if necessary, e.g. the ones who aren't acting in America's best interest?
I don't care if I get flamed. Anarchy and not following orders is not the way to a better government.

Edit: I could see a scenario where the 'organize a militia' would be useful and humorous. It could make a great South Park episode! :) Maybe this youtube guy above could be their guest character inspiration of a cousin from out of town that starts it all up, and all is peachy until Kenny gets killed....again.

retired
05-07-2009, 12:27 AM
This is confirmed by my friend who works for the LA County Sheriff department.

That's bullpucky; at least unless that is recent. I wasn't taught that when I hired on in 1976 and never heard it during training either over the almost 3 decades I worked for them.

I'm sure there are those leos who believe that and some may even be told that by their FTOs, but as far as it being a dept. sanctioned policy, I highly doubt that.

The problem some depts. may face is that keeping deputies stuck in the jail for 4+ years can result in a certain mindset being developed.

The deputies are so used to dealing with the scum of the earth for such a long period of time that a very small percentage may have a difficult time realizing that John/Jane Q. Citizen are not the hardened criminal they dealt with in the jail, court lock up or transportation.

When they eventually make into patrol, they will quickly discover the average citizen cannot be treated in the same manner.

turbosbox
05-07-2009, 12:36 AM
zGHlvnqPdH0

ummm, excuse me, but he is in an enlisted uniform, he says he takes no oath to follow orders of "any man". Duhhh, what about '...follow the orders of officers appointed over me' that he DID take if he is indeed military enlisted. :TFH:

supersonic
05-07-2009, 12:45 AM
Meh, F**K IT. That's IT!!!!!!! Save for a pistol & 3 long guns (!2GA - 1 AK - 1AR).................I'm selling my ENTIRE collection while I still can & then I'm off to use the $$$$ to buy a deserted island.:cool:

freonr22
05-07-2009, 12:54 AM
im really concerned for my 2 little girls, the path we are on seems shaky, i really hope we end up with a come from behind hail mary that they always portray us americans, having that true grit, overcoming the tyranny of it all

mattmcg
05-07-2009, 1:11 AM
I felt this relevant to the discussion as this was a very famous psychological experiment that highlighted that most people, against their own morals or conscious, would obey an authority figure even though they knew the orders given to them were in conflict with their own beliefs. (in this case, the subordinate believed they killed their test subjects through a series of electric shocks.)

It was called the Milgram experiments. Very famous and explains why innocent Germans civilians carried out some of the atrocities in WWII. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment.

The bottom line is that it is very unlikely that cops can be trusted and relied upon to act in good faith with what is right or moral when an authority figure (their boss/gov't/etc) is involved. While they may want to rebel and buck their orders, psychologically they are unlikely too.

Pretty scary stuff. Enjoy..............

freonr22
05-07-2009, 1:13 AM
i saw that on cable in the last 6 months or so! pretty wierd

DisgruntledReaper
05-07-2009, 1:37 AM
I think i would trust a militayry person to to act with more intelligence than a cop,sherrif,etc LEO... why... because that is how MY experiences have been...I find most LEO to some level or another, are on a power trip ..maybe they were picked on in school....
I have a friend whos best friend's brother is a cop in OC and we go at it when he shows for bbq's and 1 time he said he could make a phone call and have me arrested and all my firearms taken..... I told him it was not funny and it would 'not be in his best interest'....so we stilll go at it verbally.....and he is still a pomous ***** and cokholster...

Now I have friends who have been and are still in the service,one guy been on 6 tours in Iraq and they are definitely like' fug that I will never take a fellow american's guns except in a very few instances...we can always refuse an unlawful order ..or whatever they call it(my part,I cannot think of the term right now).......

if it ever comes to this i think i will have to leave town and bug out to another location to asses and get a sitrep.

BobB35
05-07-2009, 6:20 AM
"My dad can beat up your dad"...is what these threads remind me of. The ones who keep bringing up a poll: "who are non-loyal military and LE people?". List here the ones who will declare they won't follow orders in the future. All hypothetical at best. Neither can you be sure that order would ever come, or that the people who state they would or would not follow it will actually do what they boldly proclaimed.
And while we are at it "let's organize". Geez, I think most of those saying it couldn't even organize a decent picnic, let alone a rebellion. Also it reflects their lack of IQ, in that trying to organize an anti-LE, anti-military, anti-government group, would be defeatist! These so called militias would be a clown fest. They WOULD draw the security folks to them and force their hand to take away their weapons and ill thought out plans of anarchy.
Where are the threads of electing different folks who MAKE the rules, and impeaching if necessary, e.g. the ones who aren't acting in America's best interest?
I don't care if I get flamed. Anarchy and not following orders is not the way to a better government.

Edit: I could see a scenario where the 'organize a militia' would be useful and humorous. It could make a great South Park episode! :) Maybe this youtube guy above could be their guest character inspiration of a cousin from out of town that starts it all up, and all is peachy until Kenny gets killed....again.

Methinks you don't understand the problem. Do you think this country was founded based on an election? You are wrong. Go read the Declaration of independence. This problem will not be solved at the ballot box and the United states will run the full cycle of democracy. You may not like that fact but it WILL happen, probable sooner than you think.

BobB35
05-07-2009, 6:26 AM
I think i would trust a militayry person to to act with more intelligence than a cop,sherrif,etc LEO... why... because that is how MY experiences have been...I find most LEO to some level or another, are on a power trip ..maybe they were picked on in school....
I have a friend whos best friend's brother is a cop in OC and we go at it when he shows for bbq's and 1 time he said he could make a phone call and have me arrested and all my firearms taken..... I told him it was not funny and it would 'not be in his best interest'....so we stilll go at it verbally.....and he is still a pomous ***** and cokholster...

Now I have friends who have been and are still in the service,one guy been on 6 tours in Iraq and they are definitely like' fug that I will never take a fellow american's guns except in a very few instances...we can always refuse an unlawful order ..or whatever they call it(my part,I cannot think of the term right now).......

if it ever comes to this i think i will have to leave town and bug out to another location to asses and get a sitrep.

And since the LEO are becoming more paramilitary everyday what do you think is going to happen? My expience with the military is much different than yours. The people I served with would follow the orders and not question much whether it was illegal or not, unless it was clearly illegal.

Look at the knowledge of firearm law in this country, heck LEO in CA don't know the law, so if someone was ordered to round up firearms and given a reason (National security, terrorism, small kittens are being hurt) methinks that 85% of them would do it.

ilbob
05-07-2009, 6:40 AM
You guys are thinking about this all wrong.

The gun grabbers will formulate some pseudo legal mumbo jumbo and get the SC to accept it. They have made credible threats to pack the SC before and got massively unconstitutional laws accepted by the court.

Once you have some legal framework for it, you start agitating the masses. Call gun owner groups militias. Infiltrate them and have your agents engage in illegal activities so you can blame the "militia" groups for things they would never have done except for the government stooges encouraging them to do so.

Get a few standoffs going. If you think Waco was about a nutty religion, think again. It was an exercise in how best to get the populace to accept the use of raw force against mostly law abiding citizens. They screwed the pooch big time, but they will learn from it. They are getting better and better at controlling the media, and you can bet the next standoff will have tame media there and only tame media.

Think about how they managed to get CBS to report on the fake NG documents when CBS knew just how dubious they were. Thats the level of control they already have.

It only took the German people about a decade to accept Hitler. Propaganda is a little harder these days because of the Internet and talk radio, but there are laws being written to allow liberals to control them as well.

MrSigmaDOT40
05-07-2009, 7:39 AM
WOW, glad this issue is being hashed out but I just kknnooooww DHS is having a field day with this thread lol.

CavTrooper
05-07-2009, 8:40 AM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sm5PC7z79-8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sm5PC7z79-8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Ya know, I didnt see a single Guard trooper confiscating anything.

Odd.

:rolleyes:

turbosbox
05-07-2009, 8:52 AM
Methinks you don't understand the problem. Do you think this country was founded based on an election? You are wrong. Go read the Declaration of independence. This problem will not be solved at the ballot box and the United states will run the full cycle of democracy. You may not like that fact but it WILL happen, probable sooner than you think.

Ok, I'll respond. I'm wrong? Um, the country foundations? Remind me where the ballot box was placed back then, where they could ELECT their leaders, and e.g. reject their English king? A historical example or model that fits makes more sense.
Here is a model, look at all the countries that have forced a military takeover. That is NOT what you want. If a few irrational folks want to force the LEOs and active duty and reserves into defending the country against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC (hint,...oaths), then so be it. Don't expect a silly poll of "who would join in" to feel secure in anarchist mode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
"The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress."
I would highly encourage people who want to keep their 2a rights stay far away from being a violent anarchist militia type. This small minority could ruin it for all of us!
If just a few of those groups commit senseless violence, they will certainly enact more anti 2a laws, and worse comes to worst, find General Betrayus to lead the fight against the domestic enemies [aka all gun owners].

Sandman511
05-07-2009, 8:59 AM
Yeah right :rofl2:

BobB35
05-07-2009, 9:04 AM
turbosbox,

Your response is why I have full faith that things will play out the way I envision. You really think Posse Comitatis will stop anything? Give me a break.

You are right though, where was the ballot box....oh that right the founders were ELECTED representatives that voted to leave Britain, unfortunately the British didn't care because they knew the world is not run by laws and words, it is run by force. Noodle that for awhile. A law is a justification of the use of force nothing more nothing less.
What I get a kick out of is all the pacifists that are against violence who are usually the most vocal about passing new laws...

History is against you and the writing is on the wall. Turmoil is unavoidable, what will be interesting is what comes out the other side.

turbosbox
05-07-2009, 9:10 AM
Ya know, I didnt see a single Guard trooper confiscating anything.

Odd.

:rolleyes:
Good point! Also, there was that "ballot box" where a law has been enacted since this bad event, that PROHIBITS local authorities from seizing weapons in these situations. No poll required, you can see this commander and the troops are very much not wanting to participate in this operation. They had a choice, participate or lose their jobs, rank, and face a federal conviction with possible federal prison time.

PatriotnMore
05-07-2009, 9:30 AM
If there is any doubt about whether LEO, and Military will follow orders to dis-arm you, just look at your history book. All the despots past, tyrants, strongmen rulers, and every level of meaning corrupt ruler, has never had a hard time filling its ranks, or torturers willing to pull out your finger nails at the nod of the head, there will always be those willing to do the job for money.

Yes, I believe we will have men of conscious who will refuse to follow that order, or outright rebel, quit, or go AWOL.

However, in my opinion, there are actually few Patriots in our country, or any country, hence the reason for the declines, and the type of leadership(s) that comes to power. In fact, it is the Patriots whom scream the loudest, and work to defend our freedoms, without them here, this country would have gone down many years ago.

We have more wolves in sheep's clothes, at every level of government, than patriots serving to protect and defend the Constitution. They are put there by other wolves, or get elected using illusion to make us think they are Patriots for what this country is created on, but they use a much different understanding and definition then its intended meaning.

SgtDinosaur
05-07-2009, 9:55 AM
WOW, glad this issue is being hashed out but I just kknnooooww DHS is having a field day with this thread lol.

I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole. It's toxic. I know what I will do or not do depending on the circumstances. I had plenty of time to think about it during Clinton's 8 years.

Matt C
05-07-2009, 10:01 AM
I won't take anyone's guns, unless they are using them to actually victimize someone. But there was certainly a time right out of basic when I would have, and I think most soldiers and almost all cops would follow that order if it clearly came from a legitimate authority and was passed down the chain of command.

The reality though is that what you are imagining is fantasy. They will probably take guns away so slowly that by the time your grandkids can't buy or own a gun they won't think it strange at all. In fact they will have a hard time imagining those "crazy days" when everyone could have a gun.

Suvorov
05-07-2009, 10:05 AM
At the end of the day, all this talk is just mental masturbation. No one in their right mind wants to see it come to this and while I certainly agree that there is a certain amount of polarization (or Balkanization) within this country, I still think there is a lot that can be done via the ballots and the courts. CalGuns, Tea Parties, all of these are grass roots efforts that are showing success, combine that with the ever strengthening political arm of the NRA and I think it will be hard for the anti's to get everything they want. And that is how it should be, our government was designed by a lot of VERY SMART men who installed enough checks and balances for it to last a long time as long as WE do are part.

Also keep in mind that LEOs spend 90% of their time dealing with a very different element of society than most of us represent. Their views are jaded and rightly so. The VAST majority of the ones I know (and I'll admit, my sample is probably skewed) are believers in the Constitution and want the good folk of this country to be armed, but they sure as heck want the guns out of the gang bangers hands.

Suvorov
05-07-2009, 10:14 AM
The reality though is that what you are imagining is fantasy. They will probably take guns away so slowly that by the time your grandkids can't buy or own a gun they won't think it strange at all. In fact they will have a hard time imagining those "crazy days" when everyone could have a gun.

+10,000 :thumbsup:

That is how it is going and will go unless we keep standing up to it. Kids are being taught that guns are bad at school, on TV, by their media appointed heroes. Hunting is becoming less and less popular and judged by the popular culture as barbaric, while at the same time laws are being passed that make it harder and harder for those who want to hunt to do so. The focus of society and in the schools is more collective and the government is being seen more and more omnipotent and benevolent.

Eventually, the majority of our society will be brought up without an appreciation of guns, hunting, or self reliance. Two generations hence our ideas will be seen as anachronisms and there will certainly be enough political will to render the 2nd Amendment as obsolete and repeal it. Our future generations will gladly turn in their grandpa's old funny Black Rifle if it makes them feel they are doing their civic duty. This is how it happened in England and this is how it will likely (if it does) happen here.

Cops and Soldiers are a reflection of the society that they come from and will respond in much the same fashion. I am not worried about tomorrow as the political will is not there. I worry about 40-50 years from now.

KCM222
05-07-2009, 10:27 AM
At the end of the day, all this talk is just mental masturbation. No one in their right mind wants to see it come to this

The reality though is that what you are imagining is fantasy. They will probably take guns away so slowly that by the time your grandkids can't buy or own a gun they won't think it strange at all. In fact they will have a hard time imagining those "crazy days" when everyone could have a gun.

Agreed.

That being said, can we let this thread die? Think of the children.

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 10:28 AM
I am still waiting for you to answer to my question?

What are you basing your assumption on and how many years in the military or LE did you serve to come to that conclusion?

How about the YouTube videos posted in this thread? Is that enough to base an opinion on? All those LEO's and Military followed the disarming orders.

It's not a matter of "can it happen in the US?" It already HAS happened. It is just a matter of WHEN will happen again and how widespread will it be?

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 10:58 AM
Good point! Also, there was that "ballot box" where a law has been enacted since this bad event, that PROHIBITS local authorities from seizing weapons in these situations. No poll required, you can see this commander and the troops are very much not wanting to participate in this operation. They had a choice, participate or lose their jobs, rank, and face a federal conviction with possible federal prison time.

And how many of the LEOs including the Chief were prosecuted after Katrina for USC violations of depriving citizens of their rights under color of authority?

None that I remember hear of!

socal2310
05-07-2009, 11:24 AM
I think general disarmament through active duty military personnel is extremely unlikely. We have a very strongly polarized population (contrary to media hype, support for Obama was largely illusionary - people weren't voting for him, they were voting against McCain) and the military demographics place most personnel, particularly the officers on the opposite side of the divide from the gun grabbers (Bear in mind that the Civil War mostly pitted northern troops against southern troops, a fairly clean demographic/geographical division that no longer exists within the active duty miltary).

Much more likely is a dissolution of the Union which will happen in fact, long before there is any official recognition. One of two things is going to happen: either this is going to become the most ineffective administration since Carter, or Obama will overplay his hand and force a standoff between the Federal Government and one or several states which will result in the Federal Government losing significant face. I'm betting on the former.

Ryan

lrdchivalry
05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
How about the YouTube videos posted in this thread? Is that enough to base an opinion on? All those LEO's and Military followed the disarming orders.

It's not a matter of "can it happen in the US?" It already HAS happened. It is just a matter of WHEN will happen again and how widespread will it be?

There will be a few who will follow an illegal order, however, I disagree that the majority will do it. A video of a few people doing it doesn't mean the majority will do it. That is why the current administration is using the DHS memo to vilify the military and there would be no reason for Obama wanting to create his National Security Force if he knew he could count on the military or leos.

CalNRA
05-07-2009, 12:58 PM
And how many of the LEOs including the Chief were prosecuted after Katrina for USC violations of depriving citizens of their rights under color of authority?

None that I remember hear of!

I have not heard any news of that sort, either.

rolo
05-07-2009, 1:25 PM
And how many of the LEOs including the Chief were prosecuted after Katrina for USC violations of depriving citizens of their rights under color of authority?

None that I remember hear of!

How many states passed anti-confiscation bills shortly thereafter? Doesn't that count for something? Good people did stupid things thanks to a lack of proper education. It probably would have been better to make an example out of some of the departments responsible, BUT, they can no longer claim that they don't know any better in the jurisdictions that passed such laws.

The failure of our legislature to do the same reflects more on us than on our LEOs and military. There will be no confiscations if there is no mandate. There can be no mandate if there is specific law or ruling in place to prevent it.

Kinda like DOJ losing the ability to list.

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 1:33 PM
How many states passed anti-confiscation bills shortly thereafter? Doesn't that count for something? Good people did stupid things thanks to a lack of proper education. It probably would have been better to make an example out of some of the departments responsible, BUT, they can no longer claim that they don't know any better in the jurisdictions that passed such laws.

The failure of our legislature to do the same reflects more on us than on our LEOs and military. There will be no confiscations if there is no mandate. There can be no mandate if there is specific law or ruling in place to prevent it.

Kinda like DOJ losing the ability to list.

Are you saying the LEOs/LEAs never do anything illegal?

Sorry.....I've experienced the "dark side" of what LEOs can/will do, especially when their own job/reputation is on the line. My faith is not great.

The reality is that laws are merely a means to basis from which to seek criminal/civil prosecution. Laws do not physically prevent anyone, including LEOs/LEAs, from actually doing anything. They just give you the means to punish them AFTER they do it.

You say: "Good people did stupid things thanks to a lack of proper education." But shouldn't we expect our LEOs especially the CLEOs to be educated in the law and the constitution which they swore to uphold? If they're not they shouldn't LEOs.

You say: "How many states passed anti-confiscation bills shortly thereafter? Doesn't that count for something?" To that I say we've had an anti-confiscation law in this country for over 230yrs! It's called the 2A, RKBA which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! You're saying I should be happy that some states passed a law that says it's illegal to violate constitional rights of it's citizens? Are you kidding me? We already have that law....it's called the constitution.

The NOPD chief who issued the order and every officer who followed it should have charged with USC civil rights violations. They illegally searched people and their homes and cars and seized property without warrants or any legal authority to engage in such actions.....and they did so often at gunpoint. I call that armed robbery.

Two Shots
05-07-2009, 1:40 PM
It's clear, under military law, that military members can be held accountable for crimes committed under the guise of "obeying orders," and there is no requirement to obey orders which are unlawful. However, here's the rub: A military member disobeys such orders at his/her own peril. Ultimately, it's not whether or not the military member thinks the order is illegal or unlawful, it's whether military superiors (and courts) think the order was illegal or unlawful.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm

https://billstclair.com/blog/images/1775vs2005d.jpg

chris
05-07-2009, 1:40 PM
I agree. They have a job to do and will do it without hesitation.

wrong anwser again. this has been hashed out by LE and military here before. yes we have a job to do and this is not one of them. bet me on it. i will say that any order like this is an unlawfull order and not obey.


I agree for the most part. I think a few 2nd Amd. enlightened individuals in LE or Military roles might think twice, but orders are orders and laws are laws. When they see their colleagues enforcing gun-confiscation orders, there'll be very little room for them not to.

It's either that or get fired or tried for treason/dereliction of duty/failure to follow a lawful order.


same to you this an unlawfull order and military personell are not obligated to obey it. i won't either.

http://able2know.org/topic/113935-1

UMCJ quote:
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
---
By November of 2002, 315 law professors had signed a statement entitled "A US War Against Iraq Will Violate US and International Law and Set a Dangerous Precedent for Violence That Will Endanger the American People."

it is true it can get nasty if you do but an unlawfull order must not be followed. are there circomstances where is can be followed yes. but firing and taking Americans firearms pretty sucks and falls into an illegal order.

it's nice to see that people have a low regard to the military when it comes to this. thank god i don't have to rely on you folks in Afghanistan or Iraq. there are better people out there.

Glock22Fan
05-07-2009, 1:42 PM
I'm glad Matt mentions the Milgram experiment (back on page 9), I was thinking the same thing myself.

That shows that even civilians off the street will (mostly) follow orders apparently leading to the death of other citizens, just on the authority of someone unknown to them who is wearing a white coat.

And maybe some branches of the military expect initiative, but from what I see of boot camp training, it is mostly expecting unquestioned and immediate obedience to all and any order, no matter how ridiculous.

CHP officers in N.O. hitting a little old woman who happened to have a revolver, anyone?

And, I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the extend to which gun grabbing was taken at Waco and at Ruby Ridge. Anyone here hear of anyone there saying "I'm not doing this, this is just plain wrong?"

Maybe you are not, but I am convinced that if cops and/or the military were told to disarm us, that's just what most (almost all) of them would try to do, no matter whether they agreed or not.

rolo
05-07-2009, 2:02 PM
Are you saying the LEOs/LEAs never do anything illegal?

You more or less made my argument for me. Most of what you said, I thought, goes without needing to be said.

I do disagree with you on one point. The second amendment was not seen as an individual right by the po-po, the DA, the SC, your legislature, Congress, POTUS... until Heller. Even now, we must challenge, challenge, challenge! What other recourse for success do we have?

A shootout with the police on your doorstep isn't going to do jack for OUR rights, but a court case after an unlawful arrest just might.

Call me sue-happy, but that's the only legal recourse we have in this country. If it was good enough for our fore-fathers, it's good enough for me.

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 2:26 PM
I do disagree with you on one point. The second amendment was not seen as an individual right by the po-po, the DA, the SC, your legislature, Congress, POTUS... until Heller. Even now, we must challenge, challenge, challenge! What other recourse for success do we have?

Although I find it funny that recent Heller/Nordyke rulings basically state that an individual right WAS the intent when written by the framers.

Would you be so happy to rely on the law/law suits after the fact if you were a New Orleans resident who was unlawfully disarmed for no reason and then later you or a family member was killed or seriously injured because you had no ability to defend yourself?

So I guess one must decide.....do you shoot it out on your door steps with COPs engaging in illegal confiscation or hope you don't get killed by robbers/rapists/murders after the COPs leave and criminals know everyone is disarmed? Because in a situation like Katrina (or say a large earthquake in CA, or riots) they're not gonna be able to arrest or detain criminals because they had no where to put them, or with riots there is simply too many to even try. So taking your arms leaves you nearly defenseless.

So.....At the point your guns are being demanded from you who is the greatest risk to your safety?

DDT
05-07-2009, 2:37 PM
So I guess one must decide.....do you shoot it out on your door steps with COPs engaging in illegal confiscation or hope you don't get killed by robbers/rapists/murders after the COPs leave and criminals know everyone is disarmed?

Good question. What are your chances of walking away from a shootout with cops carrying FA ARs and body armor?

What are your chances of actually being robbed and killed after the cops confiscate your weapons?

Matt C
05-07-2009, 2:45 PM
Good question. What are your chances of walking away from a shootout with cops carrying FA ARs and body armor?

What are your chances of actually being robbed and killed after the cops confiscate your weapons?

Full auto isn't such hot **** as you imply, if they even have it (unlikely). Also you can buy/wear body armor yourself, probably a good thing to have for SHTF if you are going to be armed anyways.

Then you factor in the defensive advantage you get from being inside and making them come to you....

It's not such a one way fight as you might think.

PatriotnMore
05-07-2009, 2:50 PM
I do disagree with you on one point. The second amendment was not seen as an individual right by the po-po, the DA, the SC, your legislature, Congress, POTUS... until Heller. Even now, we must challenge, challenge, challenge! What other recourse for success do we have?

What is disturbing to me is, we have those in our government/LE who needed to be told by the SCOTUS, what is written in plain English. That is an equal indictment that we have the wrong types of people within/running our government, as the act itself.

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 2:55 PM
What are your chances of actually being robbed and killed after the cops confiscate your weapons?

That would depend on many factors on which one would hafta base their decisions, like their location, how longer the crisis/natural disaster will last till order can be restored and so on.

I would say in a longer term crisis/disaster your chances of getting robbed/murder will drastically start to increase the long the crisis wears on, as food and other resources start to become scare people will get more desperate. In a riot type situation your need for defense is pretty much immediate IMO.

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 3:01 PM
Good question. What are your chances of walking away from a shootout with cops carrying FA ARs and body armor?

This always kinda reminds me of that scene near the beginning of the movie "The Patriot" where the son (Heath Ledger) is taken away by the Redcoats to be executed, and his house is burned, after they shot one of his other sons.

He runs inside (I know....stupid Hollywood repeat stunt of running into a burning house and there is no smoke....but anyway...) he grabs his guns and goes out and hands one to each of his remaining sons and says "Follow me." And they make tracks to hunt down the Redcoats and free his son.

Not that I live in a hollywood fantasy world. But I think in all conflicts that have occurred throughout history people simply reach a point of decision. You either decide to engage or surrender.....and each individual is the only one who can decide that for themselves and possibly their family.

Erik S. Klein
05-07-2009, 3:07 PM
I have no faith in LE in this country and I am convinced that when the time comes for revolution they will be the enemy.

The military, IMO, will probably not engage civilians in a full-scale revolt but the police are trained to do so and will.

Theseus
05-07-2009, 3:24 PM
Oh no. . . someone figured that during a revolution the first target may be military and LE installations. . .Or was I reading too much into that?

Riodog
05-07-2009, 3:40 PM
This thread is just so much 'mental bulls**t".

The only thing that would happen if the gov't attempted to either pass a 'dictate' to confiscate weapons or send out the troops->meaning anyone they gave the authority to, would be the NRA immediately filing lawsuits and a bunch of 2-bit politicians spouting off.

It would have to be a squeeze play by the gov't over time as they don't have the manpower to immediately go door to door. Even if they attempted this type of stunt, HOW MANY of you would actually jump into fight with your neighbor
against the MAN?

The only thing that is imaginable wouldn't be massive armed confrontation but rather a terrorist type action prevailing.
Rio

rolo
05-07-2009, 3:45 PM
So taking your arms leaves you nearly defenseless.

So.....At the point your guns are being demanded from you who is the greatest risk to your safety?

Since we're roleplaying Katrina...

Probably the po po at the point when I tell them that I lost them in Lake Pontchartrain just before the high winds sank my boat, and they are deciding whether or not it's worth their time to do a warrantless search. Unless they were Fed, but then I'd never live in a flood plain, earthquake zone or fire-prone area which would require Federal disaster assistance.

And yes I am aware not everyone can do what I've done thanks to overcrowding, but you seem to have taken issue with my circumstances so I'm laying it all out for you.

Maybe you can share with us exactly what you would do, oh great Untamed one! ;)

Untamed1972
05-07-2009, 4:07 PM
Maybe you can share with us exactly what you would do, oh great Untamed one! ;)

I maybe untamed.....but I ain't stupid!


And I think I kinda already did......I said each person will hafta weigh all the factors and decide for themselves and their family. But in the case of a disaster, as long as roads are still passable I won't stick around in an urban area till conditions get really bad.....and that's all I'm gonna say.

CavTrooper
05-07-2009, 4:13 PM
Every last one of you would line up and turn in your weapons when ordered to by the government, that is an absolute fact. The LE and MIL will not need to go door to door to disarm you, you will roll over and turn them all in yourselves.

Dont think so?

Are you complying with the law now?

Do you own FA?

Unregistered AWs?

Unrostered handguns accquired illegally?

I rest my case.

Matt C
05-07-2009, 4:16 PM
^ LOL, if we don't all admit to committing felonies on a public forum then you must be right and none of us will ever break an unjust law. I like that argument.

rolo
05-07-2009, 4:18 PM
I rest my case.

Cav, this is either the awesomest or dumbest thing I've heard all day. I salute you, either way!

CavTrooper
05-07-2009, 4:26 PM
Cav, this is either the awesomest or dumbest thing I've heard all day. I salute you, either way!

This whole thread is dumb, just thought Id take it to a whole new level of stupid.

:cool:

:thumbsup:

;)

bondmid003
05-07-2009, 4:35 PM
And because you havent heard it, that means it isnt.

My basis is my business. You dont know a lot of things about the military, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt happen.

I call "bullcrap" on you knowing what I have heard, and how credible the source(s) may or may not be.

I guarantee I know more than a 1st Class Petty Officer stationed at NAS Pt Mugu, if you want to turn this into a pissing contest. But i'm sure you have alot of contacts in high levels of the Pentagon... Mods please lock this thread

nooner
05-07-2009, 4:55 PM
I trust law enforcement and government as much as they trust me. When that relationship changes then I will as well.

LEO's will do as told as will the military.

chris
05-07-2009, 5:27 PM
I trust law enforcement and government as much as they trust me. When that relationship changes then I will as well.

LEO's will do as told as will the military.

in case some of you armchair commandos missed the UCMJ quote. here it is for you again.

god you guys are worthless pieces of crap. i would never want to count on anyone here expcept for a few to back me up in combat. thank god i have better men and women for that.

UMCJ quote:

Quote:
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the


i guess black and white spelled out for anyone here is too hard. i bet most of you would wet your pants at the first outset of a gun battle with LE or military anyways.

CavTrooper
05-07-2009, 5:42 PM
I trust law enforcement and government as much as they trust me. When that relationship changes then I will as well.

CIVILIANS will do as told...

fixed.

Sgt Raven
05-07-2009, 5:44 PM
wrong anwser again. this has been hashed out by LE and military here before. yes we have a job to do and this is not one of them. bet me on it. i will say that any order like this is an unlawfull order and not obey.





same to you this an unlawfull order and military personell are not obligated to obey it. i won't either.

http://able2know.org/topic/113935-1

UMCJ quote:

it is true it can get nasty if you do but an unlawfull order must not be followed. are there circomstances where is can be followed yes. but firing and taking Americans firearms pretty sucks and falls into an illegal order.

it's nice to see that people have a low regard to the military when it comes to this. thank god i don't have to rely on you folks in Afghanistan or Iraq. there are better people out there.


Go tell that to Michael New. :thumbsup:

CavTrooper
05-07-2009, 5:44 PM
in case some of you armchair commandos missed the UCMJ quote. here it is for you again.

god you guys are worthless pieces of crap. i would never want to count on anyone here expcept for a few to back me up in combat. thank god i have better men and women for that.



i guess black and white spelled out for anyone here is too hard. i bet most of you would wet your pants at the first outset of a gun battle with LE or military anyways.

NU UH! Im a well trained fighting machine!

I airsoft and paintball on the weekends!

Ive watched Red Dawn 372 times!

I play COD every night!

I own 3 sets of cammies and a matching plate carrier!

chris
05-07-2009, 6:05 PM
Go tell that to Michael New. :thumbsup:

nice to see you left out the UCMJ article in my post.:rolleyes:

chris
05-07-2009, 6:07 PM
NU UH! Im a well trained fighting machine!

I airsoft and paintball on the weekends!

Ive watched Red Dawn 372 times!

I play COD every night!

I own 3 sets of cammies and a matching plate carrier!

i was not refering to you dude.:thumbsup:

Sgt Raven
05-07-2009, 6:07 PM
nice to see you left out the UCMJ article in my post.:rolleyes:

It's the way the quotes work on this forum software. :rolleyes:

hawk81
05-07-2009, 6:16 PM
Live free or die.

turbosbox
05-07-2009, 6:22 PM
fixed.
Yeah, i get your humor. Very little accomplished by trying to reason with some people. All they want to say is "I hate LEO and the military", and all they want to hear is "we will not follow any orders even if they are legal logical and in the interest of fighting [domestic] terrorists of some form".
Ok, if you want to hear some hypothetical oath, here it is:
If those azz hats get me called back to active duty to suppress their stupid actions, they will not want me knocking on their door. Also if their stupid homicidal actions gets martial law enacted, they will like me even less, as now I would be empowered make their life much more uncomfortable, and they will have lost most of their rights out the window, e.g. I can say "your an azz hat, go to jail, do not pass go..."
I currently have no interest in disarming anyone, but if they want to be domestic terrorists and push folks, I will have no sympathy.
Don't get me wrong, I support peaceful tea parties and the like, but some folks are cruisin' for a bruisin'.

racky
05-07-2009, 6:34 PM
this thread is pretty emotional. lets take a second, breath, and think about... ( .Y. ) <---boobs :TFH:

Glock22Fan
05-07-2009, 6:35 PM
Every last one of you would line up and turn in your weapons when ordered to by the government, that is an absolute fact. The LE and MIL will not need to go door to door to disarm you, you will roll over and turn them all in yourselves.

Dont think so?

Are you complying with the law now?

Do you own FA?

Unregistered AWs?

Unrostered handguns accquired illegally?

I rest my case.

In Germany, the Nazis told the Jews to report to the town hall for "resettlement." The turnout was virtually 100%, even though rumors about the death camp were already prevalent and Jews were being freely beaten up and shot on the streets and in their homes and businesses. They knew what would happen, and fatalistically behaved like sheep. Parents brought their kids in, even though the kids were being split off and often never seen again.

I think most gun owners would simply cave in and hand over their guns after, maybe, a brief argument. Exactly as they all did in N.O. I'd be staggered if there were rivers of blood in the streets unless a full-scale revolution resulted.

I won't insult people by calling them "armchair revolutionaries," but that's the term that comes to mind when I read some of these posts.

Sam Adams
05-07-2009, 6:36 PM
I have not read this entire thread but I recommend that you visit Stewart Rhodes " Oathkeepers" website. Active duty and retired military as well as LEO's vowing that there are 10 orders that " We will not obey". Read it and view the you-tube video's and decide for yourself. WWW.oath-keepers.blogspot.com, or goggle " oathkeepers". You can also "You-tube " Oathkeepers to see the video. It is awesome.

11Z50
05-07-2009, 7:00 PM
Based on my experience as an active-duty soldier, Guardsman, and former LEO, I can tell you this subject has been discussed at length by all the above.

I don't think the active military would get involved in domestic gun confiscation. The Generals would find a way to stay out of it. The Guard might get involved in weapons confiscation in a large riot or natural disaster. I was in the Guard for the LA Riots, and we never had an order to confiscate weapons, even though there were shots fired in some areas. We did have ROE that allowed us to shoot any citizen that threatened us with great bodily harm, and I suppose that an armed citizen acting aggressively would meet the ROE. I can see where the Guard might be tasked to disarm a particular area so the Fire Dept or emergency workers would be safe. Generally though, they would not confiscate weapons unless there were some extraordinary circumstances present.

The cops are a different story. I think the vast majority would participate in weapons confiscation, if told to do so. LE has become a "special class" which often enforces laws on citizens which they are exempt from. If the cops were allowed to keep their guns, you can bet they'd take yours. It's like the recent cell phone while driving law. Note that cops are exempt.

Cops like to believe that they are special, and better than the average citizen. Accordingly, they should be granted special status, such as CCW, speeding, "professional courtesy" and other perks. As long as the Gov't protects those who will do their bidding, (like the cops) they will be more than happy to do whatever they are told. Few give a rat's azz about civil rights and the constitution.

And no, I'm not cop-bashing. I know a few that are not bad guys, but most are like the ones I described above.

rolo
05-07-2009, 8:32 PM
The only threads on CalGuns that I can recall being more divisive than this one were the 9mm vs. .45 threads. Don't eat the trollbait, it's not for human consumption.