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View Full Version : Who Has AR-15 Pistol Stripped Lowers?


5hundo
05-05-2009, 8:18 PM
I want to buy one soon. Possibly tomorrow. Anyone have one available in So Cal?

erblo
05-05-2009, 8:22 PM
I saw quite a few pistol marked Mega's and Spike's at Bright Spot Pawn a few days ago.

5hundo
05-05-2009, 8:48 PM
I might be able to head out to the IE this weekend to DROS one...

Thanks for the heads up, erblo!

Anything closer to the South Bay Area? Perhaps even Northern O.C.?

12GAUGE
05-05-2009, 9:05 PM
You need to bring a upper,lpk , buffer tube and a sled or blocked 10 rounder for the DROS

5hundo
05-05-2009, 9:09 PM
You need to bring a upper, lpk , buffer tube and a sled or blocked 10 rounder for the DROS

How is that possible? According to the guys on the rifle forum, I can't legally own the upper unless I have the lower!?!?!?!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180849

jamesob
05-05-2009, 9:09 PM
how much are they?

Gio
05-05-2009, 9:10 PM
Upper has to be less then 16" like a 15.999" will work. Just make sure not to have a Rifle Lower near it or else that is Constructive Possession of a SBR :(

-Gio

5hundo
05-05-2009, 9:21 PM
Upper has to be less then 16" like a 15.999" will work. Just make sure not to have a Rifle Lower near it or else that is Constructive Possession of a SBR :(

-Gio

There-in lies the problem...

I have ordered a 14.5" but I already have a complete AR. So, the guys on the rifle forum are saying it would be an SBR because I have a complete rifle...

Gio
05-05-2009, 9:24 PM
There-in lies the problem...

I have ordered a 14.5" but I already have a complete AR. So, the guys on the rifle forum are saying it would be an SBR because I have a complete rifle...

Yup, best to have someone hold you OLL for you as you do this AR Pistol Build. 2nd option is to hope and pray the ATF or Local PD does not come over and do a spot check of your weapons while you have a upper and no Registered Pistol Lower :( Kinda makes no sense these rules :rolleyes:

-Gio

5hundo
05-05-2009, 9:27 PM
Yup, best to have someone hold you OLL for you as you do this AR Pistol Build. 2nd option is to hope and pray the ATF or Local PD does not come over and do a spot check of your weapons while you have a upper and no Registered Pistol Lower :( Kinda makes no sense these rules :rolleyes:

-Gio

I can do that...

Yeah, this law is annoying...

HonuMK11
05-05-2009, 9:27 PM
Not a smart move to have a non pistol lower while in possession of a SBR. Also, please have your HSC completed before you move forward with a AR pistol build.

hawk1
05-05-2009, 9:35 PM
Upper has to be less then 16" like a 15.999" will work. Just make sure not to have a Rifle Lower near it or else that is Constructive Possession of a SBR :(

-Gio

Tell us, why does the upper "have to be less then 16" like a 15.999" as you say?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
Single-shot pistols with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that have an overall length of at least 10 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled. (Penal Code 12133.)

AJAX22
05-05-2009, 9:38 PM
Tell us, why does the upper "have to be less then 16" like a 15.999" as you say?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

Because if the barrel is over 16 inches it ceases to be a pistol under CA law.

Strictly speaking since the ar is 30 inches with a 16 inch barrel it ceases to be a pistol under federal law as well. (title 1 non rifle firearm)

Gio
05-05-2009, 9:42 PM
not sure about that. Once you go over 16", you start exiting the CA definition of a pistol, so t may not be able to be DROSed as a pistol. And a 16" upper is gonna be over 26" OAL, so, now its a long gun. The 4473'd be filled out as a long gun. Yes, it isn't a rifle, so it should be able to shortened later below 16"/26" into a pistol legally, but if that is the case, then why aren't we just buying stripped pistol lowers now and not caring if they are DROSed as a long gun?

That's why.

-Gio

hawk1
05-05-2009, 9:42 PM
Because if the barrel is over 16 inches it ceases to be a pistol under CA law.



Can you post up where it says that please?

ke6guj
05-05-2009, 9:42 PM
because if the barrel is over 16", then it doesn't actually meet the definition of a handgun, and probably shouldn't be DROSed as a handgun.

Gio
05-05-2009, 9:43 PM
because if the barrel is over 16", then it doesn't actually meet the definition of a handgun, and probably shouldn't be DROSed as a handgun.

I knew you would chime in sooner or later. I copied your post from the other thread. He he, if anyone knows the SBR/Pistol rules it would be you ;)

-Gio

ke6guj
05-05-2009, 9:44 PM
Can you post up where it says that please?

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. The bolded part says that a pistol is a firearm with a barrel less than 16" long, but the underlined section may be an out.

hawk1
05-05-2009, 9:48 PM
Thanks

Quiet
05-05-2009, 9:52 PM
how much are they?

Not sure if the price has changed since March, but they were $210 each.

Quiet
05-05-2009, 9:54 PM
I might be able to head out to the IE this weekend to DROS one...

Thanks for the heads up, erblo!

Anything closer to the South Bay Area? Perhaps even Northern O.C.?

Call Bright Spot Pawn and talk to Chris about AR pistols, before you drive to the IE. He will tell you what you need to bring and what to do, in order to DROS it.

munkeeboi
05-05-2009, 10:03 PM
5hundo....just have the upper sent to ADCO or ar15barrels. it'll be much easier and quicker (and cheaper) since all you really need is to have them pin the FH anyways.

regarding the pistol lower...you have to dros it as a COMPLETE single shot pistol and you need to account for the wait time in parts and the 10 day wait for the lower. The way Bravo Company ships...you'll have that upper by the end of this week.

save yourself the trouble and either cancel it and wait for a pinned upper or have it sent to a place that can pin it for you.

Brightspot is one of the few FFL's that will let you assemble your AR pistol in their store.

5hundo
05-06-2009, 9:56 AM
5hundo....just have the upper sent to ADCO or ar15barrels. it'll be much easier and quicker (and cheaper) since all you really need is to have them pin the FH anyways.



I'm trying!

I've e-mailed bravo company but they have yet to respond. To make matters worse, they aren't answering their phone because they've got all their people in the back filling orders... (which is a good thing, really, so I'm not complaining)

I'm going to try to have them put a Vltor FH in the shippment as well and divert the shipping to ADCO but if they ship it out, then what... :confused:

5hundo
05-06-2009, 10:16 AM
Question: There seems to be a catch 22 with constructive possession.
Is this possible- Buy a pistol lower. Have the FFL hold it for you. You walk away with a receipt showing that you have paid for a pistol lower. Order you pistol upper. You can than prove if need be with the receipt that the intended firearm is a pistol. Thoughts/views?

Apparenlty not!

...and you're correct! It's an Obvious Catch 22 but the thing I find hilarious is that if you have an AR pistol and an AR rifle sitting together in your safe, you could make a case for the exact same crime! How does the possession of pistol lower make the constructive possession law go away?

No one has been able to show me where the law says that the AR Pistol posession cancels out the SBR law?

munkeeboi
05-06-2009, 10:43 AM
Because you would then have a legal use for the upper that is under 16". The assumption in Ca is that you already have a complete pistol and that that upper has a legal lower to go onto. If you only have a rifle lower and no pistol lower...The only lower in your possession would be a rifle lower and that it's construction would make a SBR

The pistol lower by itself in CA is just another lower until it get's drosed as a single shot exempt gun AFTER it has been fully assembled. Thus, if it's your first AR pistol, you need to have the upper sent to the FFL where you will be assembling.

If it's your 2nd, 3rd...etc, You can now legally receive the <16" upper on your own, since you have other pistol lowers that have the capability of accepting uppers under 16" and not creating a SBR

5hundo
05-06-2009, 10:51 AM
Because you would then have a legal use for the upper that is under 16". The assumption in Ca is that you already have a complete pistol and that that upper has a legal lower to go onto. If you only have a rifle lower and no pistol lower...The only lower in your possession would be a rifle lower and that it's construction would make a SBR.

Where exactly is this spelled out?

What law? Code? etc...

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just really would like to know this for future reference. If what everyone is telling me is true, then I've got more than a few friends who have made this same exact mistake...

munkeeboi
05-06-2009, 11:10 AM
The bolded part says that a pistol is a firearm with a barrel less than 16" long, but the underlined section may be an out.

Can you post up where it says that please?

per your earlier link http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

On page 4, the definition of a handgun seems to say that if it is ok if it has a 16" or longer upper if it is designed to be interchanged with a barrel that is less than 16".

I wouldn't try it myself....but there is some wording there that makes you think you would be able to use a 16" upper on a pistol lower...Not sure about OAL restrictions though. I don't know if it's stated that there is a MAX OAL where it's not considered a pistol anymore.

munkeeboi
05-06-2009, 11:18 AM
Where exactly is this spelled out?

What law? Code? etc...

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just really would like to know this for future reference. If what everyone is telling me is true, then I've got more than a few friends who have made this same exact mistake...

I am not sure where in the code it is...but I am referencing bwiese... Whether it be free legal advice, personal experience or, just plain knowledge, i know better than to doubt what he says.

maybe you can Pm him about it for better clarity

Gio
05-06-2009, 11:39 AM
A lot of people get lucky and do it the wrong way. I do not think you want to be the one in 1 million or less that get caught and get charged with illegally manufacturing a Short Barreled Rifle now do you? I would just listen to those around you that have given you good advice so far and go abouot it the right way. Once you have a fully assembled lower and upper at the DROS'ing shop I believe you can have more then one upper. Just lilke a Rifle can have multiple uppers for it. Just make sure to keep the Pistol lower near them ;) Better yet I would do 2 safes :D Okay maybe not, but if ATF or anyone asks to search your collection what can they say when the pistols are in A and the Rifles are at B? Stay safe have fun and don't end up in Club Fed it isn't as nice as Club Med ;)

-Gio

ke6guj
05-06-2009, 1:21 PM
! How does the possession of pistol lower make the constructive possession law go away?

No one has been able to show me where the law says that the AR Pistol posession cancels out the SBR law?

Federally, you're covered by the T/C Supreme Court ruling that said that if you had a legal way to use the handgun and rifle barrels, then the fact that they could be assembled into an illegal configuration did not make the collection of parts constructive possession of an SBR.

5hundo
05-06-2009, 2:21 PM
Federally, you're covered by the T/C Supreme Court ruling that said that if you had a legal way to use the handgun and rifle barrels, then the fact that they could be assembled into an illegal configuration did not make the collection of parts constructive possession of an SBR.

So, technically speaking, what you're saying is that the supreme court has set a precident that says I'm good... Corrrect?

munkeeboi
05-06-2009, 2:25 PM
Federally, you're covered by the T/C Supreme Court ruling that said that if you had a legal way to use the handgun and rifle barrels, then the fact that they could be assembled into an illegal configuration did not make the collection of parts constructive possession of an SBR.

So, technically speaking, what you're saying is that the supreme court has set a precident that says I'm good... Corrrect?

See the bold...you don't currently have a legal way to use the <16" upper.

bwiese
05-06-2009, 2:41 PM
1. At least in CA, don't possess *only* a shorty upper and a rifle or rifle receiver with no matching legit AR pistol or pistol receiver. There's no legit outcome for the combo: only an illegal firearm is possible. (Thompson helps out Federally, however, in this regard.)

Remember that CA has its own SBR/SBS constructive possesion laws codified in the 12020(c) PC definitions of SBRs/SBSes (as well as 12200PC definition of MG and 12301PC definition of 'destructive device'.

2. If you have a legit AR pistol receiver you can have a shorty upper on or detached from it as well as being allowed to simultaneously possess an AR rifle/rifle receiver - just as long as you don't put the shorty upper on the rifle/rifle lower!!

3. (#2) above is legit because there's a legit outcome for all of the the parts. The law does not ban owning separate rifles & pistols even if their parts are interchangeable (assuming separate AW laws are not violated and guns otherwise legal); in this situation, there is a 'lenity' outcome when a situation has a legitimate legal outlet (even if a non-legal outlet were possible).

4. Some measurable number of folks own registered AWs one of which is an AR pistol and one of which is an AR rifle. This is in the DOJ AW database and if folks were to be caused trouble for this they would've already, years ago....

5. Bottom line:[indent]

don't order shorty upper if you have a matching rifle/rifle lower but no legit matching pistol/pistol lower;



you CAN order/possess a shorty upper alone if you have no matching lowers of any type.



you CAN order/possess a shorty upper if you have a legit pistol lower, regardless of possessing a rifle lower;



if you have a shorty upper, don't order/possess a rifle/rifle lower until you have a pistol/pistol lower
(unless or until you truly get rid of the shorty upper)



most folks have to get AR pistols via use of single-shot pistol exemption in 12133PC because they cannot
acquire pistol frames from FFL (until NeRF drama sorts out, litigation completes or agency reform occurs):
exceptions are via Roster-exempt PPT, intrafamily exemption or inheritance/bequest.

'Constructive possession' can exist even when relevant parts are well-separated. If you have a shorty upper in your house in Sacramento and a rifle lower in your vacation home in Palm Springs, that's still a no-no: the items are under your 'possession and control', which is sufficient to put you in legal jeapordy.

Futurecollector
05-06-2009, 3:02 PM
^ see that what I was going to say :D lol