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trendar5
05-05-2009, 10:55 AM
I have heard nothing but good about the M&P .45 pistols. However, I am starting to hear about problems with the 9mm. I really wanted to buy one of these, but I wonder if I should wait and see....S&W is scoring some impressive contracts for their M&P pistols. Does anybody else have info on recent problems, besides LASD (posted below)? Here is what I found on another web site....I have no idea at all if the email is authentic.

Officer Safety: Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols
#81704 - 04/29/09 01:28 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply


I just received the following via email. Came from the Los Angles Sheriff's Department.


FROM: XXXX 04/29/09 12:40:15

SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT BROADCASTANNOUNCEMENT TRAINING BUREAU
WEAPONS TRAINING
TO: ALL CONCERNED PERSONNEL

SUBJECT: OFFICER SAFETY ALERT - SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOLS

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS HAVE FORCED A DEPARTMENTAL RE-EVALUATION OF THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL AS AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL HANDGUN FOR SWORN PERSONNEL.

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL SIZE PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL ON-DUTY PISTOL.

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P COMPACT PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL OFF-DUTY PISTOL.

SINCE FIRST APPROVAL AS AN OPTIONAL PISTOL ON DECEMBER 10, 2008, THE FULL-SIZED AND/OR COMPACT VERSIONS OF THE 9MM SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOL HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED BY 49 SWORN PERSONNEL ON AND OFF DUTY. ONE OF THESE PISTOLS WAS DELIVERED NEW WITH AN IMPROPERLY MACHINED BARREL THAT WOULD NOT EJECT SPENT CARTRIDGE CASINGS. ANOTHER OF THESE PISTOLS EXPERIENCED A BARREL FAILURE IN MID-APRIL OF THIS YEAR. AFTER FIRING LESS THAN 10,000 ROUNDS OF TRAINING AMMUNITION. THIS PISTOL BARREL BROKE INTO TWO PIECES JUST AHEAD OF THE FIRING CHAMBER.

ADDITIONALLY, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DEPUTY ACADEMY CLASS #XXX RECRUITS WITH ISSUED NEW SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL-SIZE PISTOLS HAVE EXPERIENCED PHASE-2 PISTOL MALFUNCTIONS, CAUSED BY SPENT CASINGS FAILING TO EXTRACT FROM BARREL CHAMBERS, DURING THE PAST TWO WEEKS OF TRAINING. CLASS #XXX RECRUITS WILL BE ISSUED BERETTA 92FS PISTOLS ON WEDNESDAY APRIL 29, 2009, AND THEIR M&P PISTOLS REMOVED FROM SERVICE.

PERSONNEL SAFETY AND RELIABLE EQUIPMENT REMAIN OUR PRIMARY CONCERNS.

DIRECT ANY QUESTIONS (removed for PERSEC) AT THE B.C. RANGE. XXXXX X. XXXX, SHERIFF LRR/SNDG

tyrist
05-05-2009, 1:12 PM
Sounds like Smith and Wesson has a rather large problem on their hands. If LASD has disapproved them other departments will follow.

SoCalDep
05-05-2009, 6:05 PM
The email is accurate, but there is more to the story. According to my sources (part gossip, part range staff connections) the M&P pistols are malfunctioning big time with the dept. practice ammo (Win-Clean). I can attest to the fact that this ammo sucks in terms of reliability. Of course, the M&P seems to malf more than the other approved guns.

I heard today that the M&Ps worked fine with duty ammo, but that doesn't totally explain the barrel failure issue. If anything, it sounds like a quality control or batch problem rather than a major design flaw. It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out...

robairto
05-05-2009, 6:31 PM
My brother has a fullsize 9mm M&P bought new about 8 months ago. Some where around the 200 rnds fired area, the gun stopped cycling ammo. My brother like me only shoots factory ammo. I was there when it happened and could not resolve it. It became a single action pistol. He sent it to Smith at their expense and got it back in 30 days. He fired it again and the same thing happened after about 50 rnds.. So, it went back to Smith. He got it back about 2 months ago and it is working. I really like that gun but I won't buy one now. Just my own story as it pertains to the M&P 9mm.

Exiledviking
05-05-2009, 8:48 PM
Let's wait and see where the dust settles. I have read stories like this about almost every make of pistol issued to LE.

Ksmash01
05-05-2009, 9:17 PM
I bought my M&P9 when they were first released in CA. I have to have closer to 15,000 rounds through mine since I purchased it, without 1 failure of any kind. I also have yet to clean it in the last 500 rounds and it has proven to be a champ. I must have gotten mine when the tools were still sharp.

Mazilla
05-05-2009, 9:22 PM
i've run about 2k(of whatever i could get my hands on) rounds of 9mm(since Feb). So far I have had only two stovepipes on unknown brand/age freebie reloads I got from a friend, I tossed those at the range. 500 of those 2k rounds we're factory reloads, flawless every time.

Trendkill
05-05-2009, 10:40 PM
I have two M&P's....one in 40 and one in 9mm.....both are quite flawless. The 9mm has about 500 through her....and the 40 has eaten about 4000 rounds.

WokMaster1
05-07-2009, 7:03 AM
Wow. I was just going to pick one up but now I'm going to wait & see. However if anyone of you wants to dump yours for cheap cheap, PM me. $300 or so. I'm in the SF Bay area.



I can dream, right? lol!

CaliTheKid
05-07-2009, 7:33 AM
Seems like LASD is pushing Sigs big time. Could be part political as well since the M&P was being fast tracked as the new standard issue gun for the department.

trendar5
05-07-2009, 10:37 AM
How are they pushing Sigs? Is the Sig approved for Deputy purchase/duty carry? Are there range masters suggesting that Deputies buy them? Do you mean that more Deputies wanted LASD to buy Sigs, but the agency went with the Smith? You have me curious now....

Jonathan Doe
05-07-2009, 6:56 PM
Sig pistols are authorized as optional pistols, which means the deputies have to buy their own if they decided to carry it. They issued the M&P's to one recruit class on a trial base.

CaliTheKid
05-07-2009, 9:38 PM
How are they pushing Sigs? Is the Sig approved for Deputy purchase/duty carry? Are there range masters suggesting that Deputies buy them? Do you mean that more Deputies wanted LASD to buy Sigs, but the agency went with the Smith? You have me curious now....

They are approved, some range staff like them a lot and do push them. Some range staff liked the M&P.

Ron-Solo
05-12-2009, 7:37 AM
The Sig P250 is being evaluated right now for LASD. The range staff is divided, some supporting the M&P and others pushing for the SIG P250. I'm sticking with my H&K P2000.

squatting_caveboy
05-16-2009, 12:29 AM
WorkMaster1 - what's that all about??? Playing up the heresay about the M&P to your advantage, eh? hmmmmm.....

Exiledviking
05-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Wow. I was just going to pick one up but now I'm going to wait & see. However if anyone of you wants to dump yours for cheap cheap, PM me. $300 or so. I can dream, right? lol!


Fat chance. :D I love mine and I have well over 3000 rounds thru it with no trouble.

Ron-Solo
05-18-2009, 2:47 PM
The teletype is accurate with some info redacted. The M&P was removed from the list of authorized handguns on April 29th.

CaliTheKid
05-18-2009, 3:17 PM
I shot the M&P and was impressed with it's grip angle and the way it pointed but the one I demo'd did jam a few times. It was a range gun so that is always a suspect sample. I've put thousands of rounds thru my P2000 and never had a jam. It's a great pistol.

trendar5
05-19-2009, 1:26 AM
We ran the M&P .40 and .45 full-size through a trial at our PD along with Sigs, Glocks, FN, XD, sadly no HK, for 6 months, without cleaning any guns. All of them ran great. ONE guy reported what he thought was ONE light primer strike with a 21SF. I wondered if it was a hard primer.... Our officers commented on the M&P trigger being not as smooth as others....which didn't bother me. I still hope to buy an M&P 9mm...maybe in 4-6 months. I carry my M&P .45 4.5" on-duty several times a month without reservation.

CaliTheKid
05-19-2009, 7:37 AM
I would have carried the M&P .45 is it had ever been approved. It's much better in the hand than the USP .45

11Z50
05-19-2009, 8:05 AM
I own and carry both full-size 45 and compact 9mm M&P's. The .45 has never missed a stroke and the 9 has had 1 failure to extract in around 2k rds for both.

These were both from last year, before the big contracts tooled up so maybe it a QC issue when mass production started.

As a side note, I clean my carry guns ASAP after firing and inspect them often. One of my people has a full-size 9 and I don't think has ever cleaned it. (I did a quick-clean on it once for her) No malfunctions I know of.

In my experience, although it was awhile ago, LASD is firearms-smart compared to many other agencies. I went to some training with them when I was a cop and had a close friend that worked at Biscaluz and Wayside. I know they thoroughly test weapons and ammo, and many departments use their data in selecting new equipment.

While the M&P performance with LASD is unexpected and certainly alarming, I hope SW will get the bugs worked out before their rep is damaged beyond repair. I remember back in the late 70's SW was trying to get the M59 adopted by many agencies, but due to early reliability issues it never really caught on. I was issued a later production model that was really a good gun, but by then the M59 was tarnished in the eyes of many LEOs.

Too bad that SW didn't do the proper QC on the LASD issue. They will pay for it in sales for a long time!

trendar5
05-19-2009, 8:48 AM
Oh my goodness, what do you do with somebody who won't clean a duty gun? There is just no way that person is squared away on the street. I guess If I was a rangemaster I'd be able to write a book after seeing that stuff.....

I attended a large-agency academy in L.A. County in the early 90's, and they would not issue or authorize Glock at that time, and I respected their explanation. They cared about the safety of the officers, and they didn't want to take any chances. But what it really came down to was the way Glock refused to acknowledge/handle the problems. If S&W takes a different tact, they will surely be O.K. As an aside, I'm not bashing Glock, and I usually carry/trust Glocks full-time.

For me, the M&P .45 has filled that wish-list gun that I have always said would sell well: A .45 in the frame of a Glock 17, with approx. 9-10 rounds.

CaliTheKid
05-19-2009, 10:46 AM
I'd also like the HK P30/30L and the HK45/45c to make the approved list. I think all 3 are perfect duty weapons.

Ron-Solo
05-19-2009, 2:39 PM
I would have carried the M&P .45 is it had ever been approved. It's much better in the hand than the USP .45

During testing the M&P 45 broke a couple of parts connecting the left side portion of the slide release. The gun still functioned, but you couldn't drop the slide from the left handed position. S&W has supposedly fixed the problem, but the gun hasn't yet been resubmitted for testing.

I'm sure with the problems the 9mm has had, it will get looked at hard before approving.

Talked to one of the range guys yesterday. S&W has supposedly come out and picked up all the pistols used by the class that had the jamming issues to see what the problem is. Hopefully it is something simple and they get the green light again. The M&P 9 is not totally dead.

CaliTheKid
05-19-2009, 3:41 PM
Thats good news-- thanks for the update. I'm sort of surprised that S&W wouldn't send a well inspected batch of guns. It's one of those "If I were running that company" moments. I'm thinking about going up to shoot the P250. Any feed back on that?

Ron-Solo
05-20-2009, 7:23 AM
Thats good news-- thanks for the update. I'm sort of surprised that S&W wouldn't send a well inspected batch of guns. It's one of those "If I were running that company" moments. I'm thinking about going up to shoot the P250. Any feed back on that?

I shot both the P250 and the M&P 9 on April 23rd as part of the test evaluation just before they pulled the M&P.

I liked the M&P 9 the best. The P250 is a nice gun. Reminds me a lot of the H&K P2000 which I carry. They have you shoot 6 different P250's. One each of the 3 different grip sized and with both trigger variants. They also had me shoot all three grip sizes of the M&P. It takes about 45 minutes and they supply the ammo, so it's definitely worth going.

I hope they work out the bugs with the M&P, it's a nice gun.

SoCalDep
05-20-2009, 8:54 PM
Rumor mill has it that upon being issued the replacement Berettas the malfunctions continued. Range staff is now looking at an ammunition switch. I can say that if it's making Berettas balk, there's something up. I also heard that range staff took all the recruit malfunctioning M&P's and put 500 duty rounds through them with no problems.

I can say that I found a round with the bullet pushed almost flush with the case when I opened a box of practice ammo so I'd definitely be inclined to believe an ammunition problem is the root cause.

Jonathan Doe
05-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Rumor mill has it that upon being issued the replacement Berettas the malfunctions continued. Range staff is now looking at an ammunition switch. I can say that if it's making Berettas balk, there's something up. I also heard that range staff took all the recruit malfunctioning M&P's and put 500 duty rounds through them with no problems.

I can say that I found a round with the bullet pushed almost flush with the case when I opened a box of practice ammo so I'd definitely be inclined to believe an ammunition problem is the root cause.

I was at the range when the new recruits were being transitioned to Beretta's. I saw several double feed malfunctions. When we used Federal American Eagle ammo, we didn't have problems, but Remington and Winchester Winclean started presenting the problems.

Ron-Solo
05-24-2009, 11:08 PM
The accuracy on the Winclean is less than desirable too.

I recently put about 1000+ rounds thru an MP5K F/A without any problems.

Ron-Solo
06-02-2009, 8:16 AM
PRELIMINARY info is there was a problem with the extractors not being the correct size. The problem guns were from the same production run and apparently the extractors come from an outside vendor.

I REPEAT, this is preliminary info.

If that is the case, it should be an easy fix. I really liked shooting the gun and hopefully LASD will clear it again for on/off duty use.

:50:

trapshot68
06-02-2009, 8:36 AM
or approve the p250 :p

Hopefully this full situation gets resolved. Lots of my friends are interested in the pistol but held off with the Teletype

Ron-Solo
06-02-2009, 10:14 AM
or approve the p250 :p

Hopefully this full situation gets resolved. Lots of my friends are interested in the pistol but held off with the Teletype

My bet is that the P250 will be approved soon since it is very much like the HK P2000 concerning the trigger style and such. I shot it recently as part of the test. I really liked it too.

Supposedly S&W is all over the corrective action. Word is that the M&P will be back on the list soon.

I want one of each.............

:43:

trapshot68
06-02-2009, 10:27 AM
That was one thing I never got.

If the Dept approves the p2k/p2sk, approved (currently hold) the MP9 and is testing the p250, why isn't the Glock being considered? Especially with OPS merging in?

Jonathan Doe
06-02-2009, 11:07 AM
I know the LASD approved P2000 and P2000 SK model. MP is un authorized, P250 in testing. Glock? I guess many people don't care for it.

5shot
06-02-2009, 2:09 PM
That was one thing I never got.

If the Dept approves the p2k/p2sk, approved (currently hold) the MP9 and is testing the p250, why isn't the Glock being considered? Especially with OPS merging in?


When Glocks first became popular with law enforcement, some departments (Orange County S.O. being one) wouldn't approve them because the polygonal barrel made matching of bullets to individual handguns impossible. At least at that time.
This may or may not be the reason LASO never adopted Glocks.

Ron-Solo
06-02-2009, 4:12 PM
I was told that the main reason LASD won't consider adopting the Glocks is that to break it down for cleaning you have to pull the trigger befroe field stripping. Afraid of A/D's, even though you're supposed to UNLOAD the freaking thing before you do anything else.

Also, when the Glocks first hit the streets, the department was hung up on having a safety on the the gun in case it was taken away from us due to the HiCap mags. Funny, our old wheel guns didn't have safetys. I guess it was OK since you could only get shot with it 6 times instead on 16.

trendar5
06-11-2009, 1:39 AM
San Jose PD just adopted a policy that any Glock on the range must be broken down in two pieces before it comes off the line, and then taken to the bench for cleaning.

kalguns
06-11-2009, 6:44 AM
San Jose PD just adopted a policy that any Glock on the range must be broken down in two pieces before it comes off the line, and then taken to the bench for cleaning.

Why would that be necessary?

Ron-Solo
06-11-2009, 6:49 AM
Why would that be necessary?

This is just a guess, but see post #36.

coop44
06-11-2009, 8:20 AM
Give me a S&W revolver any time, or a 1911, or a hipower, Melt down all plastic guns and make em into kitchen storage containers. Never liked em never will. No class, No craft, No skill required to manufacture em. Just pump out the parts and slap em together.

Jonathan Doe
06-11-2009, 3:57 PM
I think, after checking out the pistol, the M&P that broke the barrel in half has more of the metallurgical problem than anything in my opinion. But, I am not a metal engineer, and the factory has to say that I guess.

trendar5
06-11-2009, 7:14 PM
Post #36 indeed. Maybe they thought it was a snap cap in the chamber...

Ron-Solo
06-11-2009, 10:28 PM
I think, after checking out the pistol, the M&P that broke the barrel in half has more of the metallurgical problem than anything in my opinion. But, I am not a metal engineer, and the factory has to say that I guess.

Top,

Did you actually get to examine the barrel? One rumor is the owner did some "polishing" in the chamber and messed up the barrel. Not familiar with polishing or if this is possible. Can you shed some light on it? Beyond my level of expertise.

Ron

Ron-Solo
06-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Post #36 indeed. Maybe they thought it was a snap cap in the chamber...

Well, after having one of our 'contract' security officers A/D in the locker room, it just shows that despite any training we can give, you can't train the stupid out of some people. :43:

Jonathan Doe
06-12-2009, 6:36 AM
Top,

Did you actually get to examine the barrel? One rumor is the owner did some "polishing" in the chamber and messed up the barrel. Not familiar with polishing or if this is possible. Can you shed some light on it? Beyond my level of expertise.

Ron

When I examined the barrel, it appeared that the polishing had nothing to do with the failure. And, I didn't even realize that the polishing was done, if in fact it was done. Like I mentioned earlier, it looked to me the failure was caused by the metal problem than anything else. When I check the ammo, it was within the SAAMI spec on dimensions, although I haven't fired it. And, I don't have ability for pressure testing.

Ron-Solo
06-12-2009, 9:29 AM
Roger that. Like to squash rumors when possible.

Jonathan Doe
06-12-2009, 6:15 PM
Roger that. Like to squash rumors when possible.

If you want, I can show you some pictures of the barrel.

Only thing about the whole mess is that I think the department lets this incident investigated by the S&W, and let them do their thing.

Ron-Solo
06-12-2009, 9:14 PM
If you want, I can show you some pictures of the barrel.

Only thing about the whole mess is that I think the department lets this incident investigated by the S&W, and let them do their thing.

I saw a couple when I was visiting at the BC Range. I know several of the range staff from working patrol with them. This was back in April before they took it off the list.

On another note, have you seen any official training bulletins concerning OLLs by our Department?

retired
06-13-2009, 5:20 PM
11Z50, I bought a M59 when they first came out and had nothing but problems with mine; it was a jamomatic. It actually shot better with reloads than it did with factory ammo and I'm talking reloads made by another leo.

I finally got rid of it. It is the only gun I have ever sold and I have no regrets.

I was told that the main reason LASD won't consider adopting the Glocks is that to break it down for cleaning you have to pull the trigger befroe field stripping. Afraid of A/D's, even though you're supposed to UNLOAD the freaking thing before you do anything else.

Also, when the Glocks first hit the streets, the department was hung up on having a safety on the the gun in case it was taken away from us due to the HiCap mags. Funny, our old wheel guns didn't have safetys. I guess it was OK since you could only get shot with it 6 times instead on 16.

I was told by the range staff (a sgt.) that it was due to the lack of a safety also. I mentioned the revolver thing too and he just said, "I know."

As far as having to pull the trigger to break it down, you have to do the same thing with a XD. I've carried my XD for almost 6yrs. now as a ccw since I've retired and I've not shot myself or anyone else because I always check to ensure that it is empty.:eek:

Are they transitioning away from the Beretta 92f/ and fs due to age of the weapons. Mine was issued in Jan. 1990 and I bought it when I retired in 2003. It has never malfunctioned once and is an excellent gun IMO.

tyrist
06-13-2009, 6:48 PM
11Z50, I bought a M59 when they first came out and had nothing but problems with mine; it was a jamomatic. It actually shot better with reloads than it did with factory ammo and I'm talking reloads made by another leo.

I finally got rid of it. It is the only gun I have ever sold and I have no regrets.



I was told by the range staff (a sgt.) that it was due to the lack of a safety also. I mentioned the revolver thing too and he just said, "I know."

As far as having to pull the trigger to break it down, you have to do the same thing with a XD. I've carried my XD for almost 6yrs. now as a ccw since I've retired and I've not shot myself or anyone else because I always check to ensure that it is empty.:eek:

Are they transitioning away from the Beretta 92f/ and fs due to age of the weapons. Mine was issued in Jan. 1990 and I bought it when I retired in 2003. It has never malfunctioned once and is an excellent gun IMO.

This would make sense since the LASD carry their 92fs with the decocker down like the military. Other agencies like the LAPD carry with the decocker up.

11Z50
06-13-2009, 8:18 PM
On the M59, I noticed a few were good, but some were very bad. In the late 70's they were pretty good. I still have mine, and it shoots well.

I just got back from a shoot and put another 500 thru my M&P compact 9. Not a problem at all, and very accurate. I have no problems with the M&P line.

retired
06-14-2009, 12:51 AM
But tryist, as Ron-Solo said and I mentioned, that was illogical since we had been issued the revolver before we switched to the 92f. The only real safety in our S&W Model 15 was our brain. We used revolvers for over 100 years and managed to survive that. IMO, they should have allowed the Glocks and I say that tho I was already retired when they tested them.

RolinThundr
06-15-2009, 1:08 PM
I understand that CHP uses the M&P and heard on a news report that S&W had to change magazines for them on two occasions due to poor performance. Anyone know which M&P they were using?

trapshot68
06-15-2009, 1:34 PM
^^ last I heard, they aren't using the m&p. They're using the traditional metal models. 4006TSW

Ron-Solo
06-15-2009, 2:46 PM
The M&P will rise again...........

RolinThundr
06-17-2009, 8:41 PM
^^ last I heard, they aren't using the m&p. They're using the traditional metal models. 4006TSW

Thanks for the correction.