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popeye4
05-04-2009, 1:25 PM
All,

I did a quick search here and came up empty, but here's my question: what involvement did the NRA have in supporting the effort at getting Nordyke resolved in our favor?

I was at a shoot in Georgia over the weekend and they were all rather interested to hear that something positive on the gun owners side had actually come out of California and the Ninth Circuit (shocked would be a better descriptor). However, they all assumed this was led by the NRA. From reading through various posts here, it isn't apparent that the NRA was even aware of Nordyke.

I'm not trying to start an NRA-bash here, I just want to know if/how much they were involved? They seem more focused on lobbying and I never received any calls while Nordyke was being litigated (they call me all the time soliciting donations for lobbying efforts). Someone please shed some light here...... :confused:

DDT
05-04-2009, 1:32 PM
The NRA was aware of Nordyke and did assist economically with the case. They were not involved from the beginning, just like Heller. I am sure someone else can verify but I believe they stepped up after they started supporting Heller.

The NRA was NOT the lead on this case. They are an important piece of the efforts to recover our 2A rights in California but, judicially, often work in support of the efforts of others rather than initiating the suits.

bwiese
05-04-2009, 1:48 PM
The Nordyke case took a long time to 'get off the back burner'.

It was a labor of love and carefully tended by Don Kilmer, "just to keep the flame burning".

It did not really become an RKBA case (as opposed to a right of speech/association) case until 2003 when questions about is-RKBA-a-right-in-CA - denied in Hickman and Silviera - were raised, and when doubts about Hickman/Silviera were raised by the 9th.

Once things were "on track" and the case solidified as a real RKBA case, NRA support was there. In addition to direct support/filings, other background work - soliciting law professors' briefs, etc. - was also done.

hoffmang
05-04-2009, 7:26 PM
The Madison Society was instrumental in keeping Nordyke alive during its darkest days.

After pushing through, NRA came in and assisted by paying Don Kates' bill and filing Amicus on the most recent stage.

Calguns Foundation assisted with logistics and additional legal preparation.

-Gene

H Paul Payne
05-04-2009, 7:38 PM
All,

I did a quick search here and came up empty, but here's my question: what involvement did the NRA have in supporting the effort at getting Nordyke resolved in our favor?

I was at a shoot in Georgia over the weekend and they were all rather interested to hear that something positive on the gun owners side had actually come out of California and the Ninth Circuit (shocked would be a better descriptor). However, they all assumed this was led by the NRA. From reading through various posts here, it isn't apparent that the NRA was even aware of Nordyke.

I'm not trying to start an NRA-bash here, I just want to know if/how much they were involved? They seem more focused on lobbying and I never received any calls while Nordyke was being litigated (they call me all the time soliciting donations for lobbying efforts). Someone please shed some light here...... :confused:

This is from the 2003 end-of-year report. http://www.calnra.com/caspecial/sum2003.shtml

I hope this helps clarify this issue for you. Here is the text from the report:

Nordyke v. Alameda This case involves a gun show's challenge to Alameda County's ordinance banning gun shows. It raises both First and Second Amendment issues. NRA has heavily supported this case, and several related cases, since they were filed several years ago.

popeye4
05-05-2009, 7:57 AM
Thanks, all. I knew they didn't lead, but it is nice to know they provided support. They can't do everything.......

7x57
05-05-2009, 8:06 AM
My impression is that the the level of support grew proportional to the realization by The Right People that Nordyke might be much more important than Don Kilmer's personal crusade on behalf of the Nordykes. Some of the comments at the post-Nordyke dinner suggested that at one point The Right People were worried that Don Kilmer was going to give us another bad precedent--Don Kates did say he advised Don Kilmer to *NOT* make a 2A claim because of that (and of course in hindsight he was so glad that Don Kilmer did not take that advice). When people realized that Nordyke could be an Incorporation case and go to the head of the line, I think the support from elsewhere increased a lot.

So my guess is that in those "darkest days" the NRA was worried like everyone else about the precedent Nordyke would set if heard under the 9th circuit's precedents. I don't know what the level of support was, but I'm guessing it at least reflected that worry. I suspect the point at which the support increased was when it began to appear that SCOTUS might raise the 2A from the dead (and that's what they did) and Nordyke might be heard in a completely different legal context.

Which, if correct, parallels the situation with Heller. I don't think the NRA likes to take chances in court, and it also opposed Heller when the makeup of the Supreme Court made it look like a loser that could kill the 2A as dead as the Privileges and Immunities clause, and for at least as long. I don't have a problem with that, though it does mean that the NRA is not likely to be first in line where *not* gambling is as chancy as gambling. That's why having several excellently led 2A organizations seems to be working well for us.

7x57

Lex Arma
05-05-2009, 11:02 AM
The statements set forth here on Calguns are correct in every important way. I might quibble with details. If/when a final accounting is done, I will seek authorization from my clients to publish actual financial contributions.

For now, this will have to do:

1. The Madison Society came through in the clutch when Nordyke was almost dead. They may be small, but they are dedicated Second Amendment warriors.

2. The Golden State Second Amendment Council is also a clutch player, they supplied funding to print and file an amicus brief in Heller on behalf of the Nordyke Plaintiffs.

3. Don Kates provided valuable assistance (and criticism) throughout the case.

4. Chuck Michel provided valuable personal assistance that probably does not show up on anybody's ledger.

5. The NRA/CRPA, paid for an expert's report on the cultural significance of gun shows (as part of our First Amendment claim.) The expert's report was excluded from evidence by the trial court, but the I think the report was instrumental in getting the County to concede that the possession of guns at gun shows is expressive conduct.

6. After it became clear that Nordyke was in the best position to address incorporation in a post-Heller world, the NRA/CRPA offered to pick up the cost of preparing the case for argument, including but not limited to airline tickets, hotels (for moot court), fees paid to Don Kates to assist me, copy and publication costs, not to mention the amici briefs that the NRA coordinated and paid for.

Please be aware that there is a difference between costs and fees. My fees have not been paid since 1999, and unless we get the case reviewed by SCOTUS and win, I will probably not get paid. Costs are: printing, travel, discovery, depositions, filing fees, etc... NRA/CRPA have asisted with costs (not fees, except for Don Kates) in this case.

I'm a life member of the NRA and intend to remain one. I have no criticism of my organization with regard to the timing, amount or form of assistance they provided to my case. The NRA can't fund every case and they cannot be dinged for failing to read the tea leaves in this case 10 years ago.

In my opinion, every NRA member can be proud of the litigation support that NRA has provided (or will presumably continue to provide) in the Nordyke case.

Thank you all very much.

Ground Loop
05-05-2009, 11:07 AM
Thank you for that post, Lex Arma! It was one of the most enlightening and positive things I've read about the NRA.

I'm glad to hear they're with us in offensive battle as well.

bwiese
05-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Thank you, Don!

7x57
05-05-2009, 11:09 AM
The statements set forth here on Calguns are correct in every important way.

Now that's getting the word straight from the horse's mouth, as it were! Thanks, Don! :)

(Did I just appear to call a lawyer a horse in a public forum? :eek:)

7x57

7x57
05-05-2009, 11:13 AM
Please be aware that there is a difference between costs and fees. My fees have not been paid since 1999, and unless we get the case reviewed by SCOTUS and win, I will probably not get paid.

I forgot to add a big heartfelt thanks for this, which is the only reason we're here at all.

7x57

H Paul Payne
05-05-2009, 11:22 AM
The statements set forth here on Calguns are correct in every important way. I might quibble with details. If/when a final accounting is done, I will seek authorization from my clients to publish actual financial contributions.

For now, this will have to do:

1. The Madison Society came through in the clutch when Nordyke was almost dead. They may be small, but they are dedicated Second Amendment warriors.

2. The Golden State Second Amendment Council is also a clutch player, they supplied funding to print and file an amicus brief in Heller on behalf of the Nordyke Plaintiffs.

3. Don Kates provided valuable assistance (and criticism) throughout the case.

4. Chuck Michel provided valuable personal assistance that probably does not show up on anybody's ledger.

5. The NRA/CRPA, paid for an expert's report on the cultural significance of gun shows (as part of our First Amendment claim.) The expert's report was excluded from evidence by the trial court, but the I think the report was instrumental in getting the County to concede that the possession of guns at gun shows is expressive conduct.

6. After it became clear that Nordyke was in the best position to address incorporation in a post-Heller world, the NRA/CRPA offered to pick up the cost of preparing the case for argument, including but not limited to airline tickets, hotels (for moot court), fees paid to Don Kates to assist me, copy and publication costs, not to mention the amici briefs that the NRA coordinated and paid for.

Please be aware that there is a difference between costs and fees. My fees have not been paid since 1999, and unless we get the case reviewed by SCOTUS and win, I will probably not get paid. Costs are: printing, travel, discovery, depositions, filing fees, etc... NRA/CRPA have asisted with costs (not fees, except for Don Kates) in this case.

I'm a life member of the NRA and intend to remain one. I have no criticism of my organization with regard to the timing, amount or form of assistance they provided to my case. The NRA can't fund every case and they cannot be dinged for failing to read the tea leaves in this case 10 years ago.

In my opinion, every NRA member can be proud of the litigation support that NRA has provided (or will presumably continue to provide) in the Nordyke case.

Thank you all very much.


Thanks Don. Great level of detail!

Paul