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GammaRei
05-04-2009, 2:22 PM
I had a question that has been bugging me for a while. When a person gets placed on a 72 hour 5150 hold due to danger to self. What goes into their background. Is it a temporary thing, or are 5150 holds permanently on your record?

- G

GenLee
05-04-2009, 2:26 PM
Uh oh, What did you do? :p



j/k I have no idea. This was just a feeble attempt at humor.

BONECUTTER
05-04-2009, 2:33 PM
4473
Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own
affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

For most its a disquailfer. I knew one girl who had to go to court to have hers removed so she could buy a gun. Don't know how long they stay on your record, but the form says ever so thats what I would guess.

GammaRei
05-04-2009, 2:34 PM
Uh oh, What did you do? :p



j/k I have no idea. This was just a feeble attempt at humor.

Lol. I see many 5150's as an EMT and was curious what would happen. . .

- G

5150Marcelo
05-04-2009, 2:35 PM
Ummmm...

:o

GammaRei
05-04-2009, 2:38 PM
Ummmm...

:o

???

- G

B.D.Dubloon
05-04-2009, 2:55 PM
Good question. I guard the local bhu hearings for my county (to keep the nutjobs from attacking the judge) and some of the people are pretty normal so I hope not. Many of the people in there go there voluntarily and of their own initiative, so that would suck if they are screwing themselves just trying to get help.

A lot of the people are just there to get a place to stay for a bit and some meds. They sent some homeless guy out with 40 20mg oxycontin pills and a whole bunch of methadone last time I was there, that guy probably makes more money than I do:rolleyes:. Over 20 percent of the people who go there are back within a month, the place is a huge money pit.

sac550
05-04-2009, 3:20 PM
Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm. The box on the 4473 doesn't apply to a person placed on a 72 hours hold and released with that period. However, the facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.

sac550
05-04-2009, 3:21 PM
Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm per federal law.

bluestaterebel
05-04-2009, 4:05 PM
Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm per federal law.

didnt that happen to the virginia tech shooter?

CSDGuy
05-04-2009, 4:21 PM
The 5150 hold is a hold for evaluation purposes. If they keep you past the 72 hours, then essentially they've done a 5250, which is a care/treatment hold for up to 30 days. Those holds require that two Docs agree that it's necessary to do so. IOW: while a LEO or LCSW can put someone on a 5150, they can't do a 5250.

bluestaterebel
05-04-2009, 4:39 PM
what is a LCSW?

CSDGuy
05-04-2009, 4:48 PM
Licensed Clinical Social Worker. There are a few people that have authority to put someone on a 5150. That's one of them. There's also a VERY specific form that needs to be filled out. When I was an EMT (and later a medic), no form means no transport unless the LEO doing the form follows me and delivers the paperwork to the facility...

Yes, I had to know the rules for 5150 transports...

rg_1111@yahoo.com
05-04-2009, 6:14 PM
Sac550,
Has it right. Facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.

GammaRei
05-04-2009, 6:29 PM
Licensed Clinical Social Worker. There are a few people that have authority to put someone on a 5150. That's one of them. There's also a VERY specific form that needs to be filled out. When I was an EMT (and later a medic), no form means no transport unless the LEO doing the form follows me and delivers the paperwork to the facility...

Yes, I had to know the rules for 5150 transports...

We get those green forms. . .

- G

CSDGuy
05-04-2009, 6:42 PM
I went to a facility that had written "5150" on their Physician's order sheets. It was a telephone order. The Doc didn't examine the patient. The RN couldn't legally write 5150's. I refused transport. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't a legal order. The person was completely oriented... couldn't transport under implied consent. To say the facility was upset is putting it mildly.


Now they know better.

FLIGHT762
05-04-2009, 7:18 PM
Sac550,
Has it right. Facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.

This is true. A short story: My brother was placed on a 5150 for a medical condition. He was released within the 72 hrs. and was not held on a 5250. Many months later, he was notified by Calif. DOJ he had to surrender his firearms. In the notice, he was informed he could request a hearing before a judge. He requested a hearing. I went to the hearing with him. He was the first person in our county to request a hearing. The D.A.'s office didn't know what to do. My brother told his story. He had a horrible skin condition and needed to be admitted into Kaiser Hospital. Kaiser refused. A nurse whispered to him that if he said he was going to hurt himself, they had to admit him. Well, he did and was placed on a hold.

At the hearing, the D.D.A. actually went to bat for him in the hearing and the judge gave him his firearm rights back. About a year later, he purchased a new shotgun and cleared the background check.

B.D.Dubloon
05-04-2009, 7:29 PM
This is true. A short story: My brother was placed on a 5150 for a medical condition. He was released within the 72 hrs. and was not held on a 5250. Many months later, he was notified by Calif. DOJ he had to surrender his firearms. In the notice, he was informed he could request a hearing before a judge. He requested a hearing. I went to the hearing with him. He was the first person in our county to request a hearing. The D.A.'s office didn't know what to do. My brother told his story. He had a horrible skin condition and needed to be admitted into Kaiser Hospital. Kaiser refused. A nurse whispered to him that if he said he was going to hurt himself, they had to admit him. Well, he did and was placed on a hold.

At the hearing, the D.D.A. actually went to bat for him in the hearing and the judge gave him his firearm rights back. About a year later, he purchased a new shotgun and cleared the background check.

Where in Norcal are you? I guard the hearings at Dominican in Santa Cruz, just wondering if that's where your bro was.

FLIGHT762
05-04-2009, 7:55 PM
Where in Norcal are you? I guard the hearings at Dominican in Santa Cruz, just wondering if that's where your bro was.

Just north of you in San Mateo County.
P.S. If you are Santa Cruz Co. S.O., I need one of your SWAT patches. I have some of ours to trade. P.M. me.

Thanks.

B.D.Dubloon
05-04-2009, 8:09 PM
Just north of you in San Mateo County.
P.S. If you are Santa Cruz Co. S.O., I need one of your SWAT patches. I have some of ours to trade. P.M. me.

Thanks.

I wish. I'm just a rentacop, my company is contracted by the hospital because we make way less than their in house security crew so they have us do a lot of stuff.

BigDogatPlay
05-04-2009, 9:06 PM
+1 to all... If you are involuntarily committed for longer than the 72 hour hold, or adjudicated by a court as mentally disordered your firearms rights are gone.

IIRC, the issue with the Virginia Tech shooter was that he had been involuntarily committed past any temporary hold and that info hadn't made it to NICS.... hence he was able to purhcase X2 from an FFL when he should not have been able.

bobgengeskahn
07-03-2009, 3:22 AM
out of curriousity, what if it is a voluntary extension of the 72 hours? I got really bored and was reading a whole bunch of different laws and found this thread...

1911su16b870
07-03-2009, 9:49 AM
Protective custody on a 5150 results from:
1. Danger to self
2. Danger to others
3. Gravely disabled (unable to care for self)

deb7566
07-03-2009, 10:51 AM
If a person is not arrested but put on a 5150 hold, then they get out and do something again where they are detained by law enforcement, is there anything that law enforcement sees in their background check that shows they had a prior hold or is that information sealed?

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 11:03 AM
hmmm is it at the federal or state level that you get denied gun rights past 72 hour hold

My dad was 5150'd when he and my mom split up, he moved to a different state and can buy guns no problem.

Also I'm glad a 5150 means you don't get your guns taken from you...cause Gamma knows...some holds are TOTAL BS!

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 11:04 AM
I went to a facility that had written "5150" on their Physician's order sheets. It was a telephone order. The Doc didn't examine the patient. The RN couldn't legally write 5150's. I refused transport. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't a legal order. The person was completely oriented... couldn't transport under implied consent. To say the facility was upset is putting it mildly.


Now they know better.

you could just say SNF.......OO and LOL I bet they were PISSED! LOL!

SVT-40
07-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Here is a good link to information related to 5150 WIC commitments and firearms ownership.

http://www.dmh.ca.gov/DMHDocs/docs/notices99/99-17.pdf

More:

http://www.wagv.org/documents/MentalHealthandFirearmsCheatSheet.pdf

B.D.Dubloon
07-03-2009, 3:49 PM
I work in a BHU and the cops brought in 8 5150s in one shift! With ER referrals and walkins we got 12 total new patients in one shift. And this was yesterday (Thursday) not even a weekend:eek:

Scout106
07-03-2009, 4:04 PM
You should all take a look at W&I 8102, as it relates to seizure of firearms from a person detained for evaluation under W&I 5150. As I recall it mandates (Shall Take) seizure of "any firearms whatsoever" under the control or care of anyone detained for mental evaluation under W&I 5150. Getting them back will likely require a court hearing. Good luck!

SVT-40
07-03-2009, 4:07 PM
I work in a BHU and the goddam cops brought in 8 5150s in one shift! With ER referrals and walkins we got 12 total new patients in one shift. And this was yesterday (Thursday) not even a weekend:eek:

Sounds like a crazy night :p.........Was it a full moon???:eek:
Sound like a warm up for a bang up 4th of July:43:

B.D.Dubloon
07-03-2009, 4:14 PM
Sounds like a crazy night :p.........Was it a full moon???:eek:
Sound like a warm up for a bang up 4th of July:43:

I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

AirflowPimp
07-03-2009, 4:29 PM
Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

Fire in the Hole
07-03-2009, 5:42 PM
Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.


And I believe Sir that you are wrong about that point. It's LE that comes into contact with these 5150 paranoid schizos (EDP's) living under bridges. Many of them are violent. Nearly all are uncooperative. Can we call an MD, RN, LCSW, or EMS out at 0300 to crawl unarmed, under this overpass, Dipsey Dumpster, cardboard box etc., to contact the individual to make this evaluation? If so, provide 911 dispatch with your phone number, I will be happy to wait back at the station and let you or the other unarmed, yet highly trained mental health professionals handle it. LEO's would be happy to surrender this responsibility to you from response-contact-evaluation-transportation.

Bear in mind that it was the professional medical workers that wanted out of this "In the field" responsibility in the first place. They petitioned the legislature to make LE the occupation that gets first call to make the eval. LE sure didn't beg for it.

You are also incorrect about LEO's lack of training in this matter as well.

retired
07-03-2009, 6:47 PM
The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

AirflowPimp, do you know for a fact that some leos write them out of laziness in not wanting to deal with them or is this your opinion. In this particular example, you went into great detail implying the deputy was lazy, but then said, To his defense, I think he was newer..

Even if you had evidence to prove this, this is not a cop bashing forum and that in fact, is what you are doing, so don't.

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 7:00 PM
I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

See I don't get why laying hands on people is such a big deal? Is it extra paper work for private security??
Cops, FF's and EMS lay hands on people ALL the time! What am I missing here?? Am I missing something here??

My ex bf used to do security and he talked about "laying hands on people" like it was a huge deal too

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 7:06 PM
I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

yea....idk about passing the torch to EMS....its nice to be able to say "look I didn't do this too you and I can help you in this situation."

Its also nice to have a guy with a gun present that the patient/suspect knows can get rougher than we can if need be.....
Plus I see medics writing 5150's as a way for more medics to get hurt or assaulted by pt's. If you take away the cop you will have medics going into bad situations with no backup and no way to defend themselves if the situation goes sour....you can't tell me counties wouldn't skimp on sending LEO back up to every 5150 call.....you know they would EVENTUALLY!

Dr. Peter Venkman
07-03-2009, 7:11 PM
So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 7:11 PM
Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 7:14 PM
Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.
Maybe not drunk enough...for the (f) but too drunk to let go for agency liability???

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 7:23 PM
Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...

not really....ff's and ems at least, cops are different

So if a patient doesn't know whats going on, where they are, when it is and who they are then they are altered....if they are altered and need medical clearance then they go to the hospital. They don't get a choice cause they can't make a cognitive decision...so they go. If they fight, we can restrain, cause we have to take them...its the law. If they try to endanger myself or my partner we can restrain them cause our safety comes first.
Or of course a 5150 is placed we can restrain them

If we restrain someone who doesn't want to go and knows all the correct answers to the questions and isn't on a 5150 hold...that is battery.

But if someone is on a 5150 hold they have lost certain rights as far as going or not going....so if we can restrain a person on a 5150 to take them to a hospital, and the hospital can restrain them while they are there, and the EMT's can restrain them going to the psych facility, and EMT's and hospital staff can attempt to stop the patient from leaving (usually they back down to not get hurt...I know I'll let a psych pt go if I feel like I can't take em and I'm in danger and let PD handle it)
Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 7:36 PM
come to think of it....private security at hospitals lay hands on people all the time too.....so what is different about when they are in the psych facility itself?

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 7:41 PM
As to the idea of having LEO's out of the 5150 business, IMHO, they SHOULD have some specific case-by-case oversight. They should call-in to an Emergency Psych Doc or an LCSW for the "order" or "OK" to do a 5150. I've met more than one LEO that made it his mission to do a 5150 once per shift...

Otherwise, the 5150 and firearms possession should be completely de-linked. If someone should be too unstable to possess a firearm, they should be committed...formally.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-03-2009, 7:55 PM
It depends on what Hospital they work at.

Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

Security officers are trained in this field to restrain.
The Security Officer is there for everyone's safety. Patients,Dr,Nurses, Etc.
At the Hospital I work at Security and the Nurses will restrain the patient with soft restraints first.
Chemical restraints if there fighting the soft.
Once chemical restrained the soft restrains have to come off after 2 hours.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-03-2009, 8:01 PM
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 8:01 PM
I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.

It depends on what Hospital they work at.

Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???

Security officers are trained in this field to restrain.
The Security Officer is there for everyone's safety. Patients,Dr,Nurses, Etc.
At the Hospital I work at Security and the Nurses will restrain the patient with soft restraints first.
Chemical restraints if there fighting the soft.
Once chemical restrained the soft restrains have to come off after 2 hours.

um okay, my question is why is restraining people such a big deal to private security??
At least it seems like a big deal to me in my experiences and I don't get why....the above poster made it seem like its a bigger deal to private security rather than ff's and medics who do it all the time and I don't understand why thats all.

shellyzsweet
07-03-2009, 8:02 PM
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

yea...thats awesome! Its nice to be able to say "hey if you calm down and cooperate the doc can and might cancel the 5150, so if you wanna get out of this you gotta calm down to help yourself"

p7m8jg
07-03-2009, 8:06 PM
checkout 8103 W&I. the firearms restriction is only for 5 years, not forever. And if you are not committed involuntarily (as in you voluntarily go into a medical mental health facility), the firearms restriction only lasts as long as you're in the facility, not the 5 years as for someone who is involuntarily committed.

I've handled a number of these hearings and I'm usually most concerned that no one gets hurt if they get their guns back. If you need help, get it yourself. If you're involuntarily committed, then keep seeing your medical professional and make sure you apply to get your gun rights back under the hearing procedure of 8103 W&I. Tell the DA what you're doing and/or get a lawyer to help show why its not a problem for you to get your firearms returned.

If you lose the hearing, give the guns/transfer them to your wife/best friend / father / relative and you get them back when the restriction expires after 5 years.

Someone who is a paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't get their guns back. Or someone who tried to commit suicide by firearm & was committed. That's the real purpose of the law, protect people from hurting themselves and/or others.

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 8:10 PM
not really....ff's and ems at least, cops are different

So if a patient doesn't know whats going on, where they are, when it is and who they are then they are altered....if they are altered and need medical clearance then they go to the hospital. They don't get a choice cause they can't make a cognitive decision...so they go. If they fight, we can restrain, cause we have to take them...its the law. If they try to endanger myself or my partner we can restrain them cause our safety comes first.
Or of course a 5150 is placed we can restrain them

If we restrain someone who doesn't want to go and knows all the correct answers to the questions and isn't on a 5150 hold...that is battery.

But if someone is on a 5150 hold they have lost certain rights as far as going or not going....so if we can restrain a person on a 5150 to take them to a hospital, and the hospital can restrain them while they are there, and the EMT's can restrain them going to the psych facility, and EMT's and hospital staff can attempt to stop the patient from leaving (usually they back down to not get hurt...I know I'll let a psych pt go if I feel like I can't take em and I'm in danger and let PD handle it)
Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???
What about Head Trauma patients that are otherwise cognitively intact? Oh, and you just described pretty much EXACTLY when EMS can take someone against their will... Yes, I am a Paramedic. I know EXACTLY when I can do something to someone against their will. My rule is simple. Behave like a decent human being, I'll treat you like one. Behave like an animal, and I'll treat you like one.

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 8:26 PM
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.
Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.
um okay, my question is why is restraining people such a big deal to private security??
At least it seems like a big deal to me in my experiences and I don't get why....the above poster made it seem like its a bigger deal to private security rather than ff's and medics who do it all the time and I don't understand why thats all.
The reason is that generally speaking, security guards (private ones) have no more authority to restrain another person than any other citizen. Under certain specific circumstances, a Security Guard may be given some limited peace officer authority, and that's set in the Penal Code.
yea...thats awesome! Its nice to be able to say "hey if you calm down and cooperate the doc can and might cancel the 5150, so if you wanna get out of this you gotta calm down to help yourself"
I totally agree that is a good thing... however, it doesn't prevent any abuse of the 5150 that can be done by a LEO.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-03-2009, 8:29 PM
Shelly,
Security that don't know about 5150s make a big deal of it.
The officers that know it's not a big deal. When you know what your doing you don't get in trouble like being sued.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-03-2009, 8:39 PM
No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.

AirflowPimp
07-03-2009, 9:01 PM
And I believe Sir that you are wrong about that point.......Can we call an MD, RN, LCSW, or EMS out at 0300 to crawl unarmed, under this overpass, Dipsey Dumpster, cardboard box etc., to contact the individual to make this evaluation? ...
Thats not what I said now is it? Please try not to put words in my mouth. I never said that i think EMS should crawl unarmed....etc etc. My opinion is that instead of LEO having the cross to bear to dictate these people as 5150's, i simply think it would be better if they did everything the same up until the point of dictating whether or not to place the pt on a hold. In the counties that I work in, LEO calls us out to transport anyways, so why not call us out 15 minutes sooner, to make the decision to hold them or not?


... LEO's would be happy to surrender this responsibility to you from response-contact-evaluation-transportation.
Evaluation and transport yes. As you stated above, we are unarmed. It is LEO's job (and believe me, i am very grateful) to secure the scene/patient before we roll in.



You are also incorrect about LEO's lack of training in this matter as well.

AirflowPimp, do you know for a fact that some leos write them out of laziness in not wanting to deal with them or is this your opinion. In this particular example, you went into great detail implying the deputy was lazy, but then said, .

Even if you had evidence to prove this, this is not a cop bashing forum and that in fact, is what you are doing, so don't.
First off, why don't YOU stop accusing me of things like cop bashing. I did no such thing and intended to do no such thing. I have VERY close people to me who are in law enforcement. Family, friends, etc. I HATE it when people cop bash. I made it very clear that it was not to be intended that way:
The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens)

And of course it is my opinion. There is only one way to look at some of the situations i have seen. The example I gave was in reference to the STUPID reasons. Not the laziness. Maybe i should have worded it different. Instead of this:
The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).
I should have written it like this:
The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid reasons. Or non-legit reasons which seem to be based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

yea....idk about passing the torch to EMS....its nice to be able to say "look I didn't do this too you and I can help you in this situation."

Its also nice to have a guy with a gun present that the patient/suspect knows can get rougher than we can if need be.....
Plus I see medics writing 5150's as a way for more medics to get hurt or assaulted by pt's. If you take away the cop you will have medics going into bad situations with no backup and no way to defend themselves if the situation goes sour....you can't tell me counties wouldn't skimp on sending LEO back up to every 5150 call.....you know they would EVENTUALLY! Thats not what I am saying. See above as well as below.

Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.

Thank you for seeing my point and not accusing me of cop bashing. :thumbsup:


On a side note: Counties have different procedures for this. In the counties that I work in, LEO responds to a call and finds someone who is a possible 5150. They control the scene and then call us in to transport to the BCU/BHU/Hospital. I was saying that i FEEL, in MY OPINION, that they should simply call EMS, or an on duty EMS director/County health, or Supervisor, etc. to evaluate whether or not the person should be held. I realize that different counties dont have the recources that mine do, so i understand that this is not possible. I am speaking for the counties I work in specifically.

CSDGuy
07-03-2009, 9:04 PM
No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.
So what you're saying is that the paperwork never arrives at the facility if the Psych Doc or LCSW at the facility reviews the paperwork brought to the facility evaluates the patient and decides that they don't need to be committed...

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-03-2009, 9:17 PM
Im saying the paper work comes to the Hospital with the patient.
If there NOT 5150 the paper work get sealed there in a folder.
What is LCSW?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.

So what you're saying is that the paperwork never arrives at the facility if the Psych Doc or LCSW at the facility reviews the paperwork brought to the facility evaluates the patient and decides that they don't need to be committed...
07-04-2009 04:01 AM

B.D.Dubloon
07-03-2009, 11:36 PM
See I don't get why laying hands on people is such a big deal? Is it extra paper work for private security??
Cops, FF's and EMS lay hands on people ALL the time! What am I missing here?? Am I missing something here??

My ex bf used to do security and he talked about "laying hands on people" like it was a huge deal too

It isn't a huge deal at all, for some reason you are reading way more into my post than was there. I mentioned it to illustrate that it was a relatively rare occurrence, and that having to do two in one day at the BHU was somewhat novel. Depending on the location, yes it does involve paperwork. Where I work "laying hands on people" (this is my preferred term, others may say something different) does not require a report unless you end up putting the person in restraints which very rarely is necessary in the BHU because we have isolation rooms and only use restraints if the person in there is banging their head on the wall or otherwise trying to harm themselves. The mental health staff might have to do somepaperwork but I don't know.

In the ER on the other hand their are no isolation rooms and having to restrain people is more common (about 1 night, more on weekends, usually drunk stinking bums).


The reason is that generally speaking, security guards (private ones) have no more authority to restrain another person than any other citizen. Under certain specific circumstances, a Security Guard may be given some limited peace officer authority, and that's set in the Penal Code.


In hospitals it is a little bit different because if a doctor tells you to restrain someone, you do it, and as long as you are acting in good faith (following what appear to be legitimate directions from the doctor) you are not committing a crime.

Shelly,
Security that don't know about 5150s make a big deal of it.
The officers that know it's not a big deal. When you know what your doing you don't get in trouble like being sued.

Yeah, unless it is a pressing issue (about to be a fight) I will wait until staff directs me to grab somebody. I have had a guy swing on me which obviously I did not wait for staff directions, I just dragged him to isolation. Also with 5150's vs. drunks in the ER, the 5150 usually doesn't really no what they are doing as much so there is a higher level of pity, and you don't want to have to lay hands on them. There really isn't too much danger of being sued from someone in the BHU, which is kind of nice. If someone tried to sue me, it would boil down to some nutcase trying to sue a trained guy doing his job, with full support from staff and a letter from the judge who oversees the mental health hearings saying what a great guy I am. I have been threatened with lawsuits a bunch (anyone who works in BHU has) and nothing has ever come of it.

JUST WANT TO CLARIFY, when I complained about "goddam cops" bringing a bunch of 5150's in, I was speaking jokingly and no offense was intended I hope none of you guys took offense, although I did get a questioning (although very civil) pm about it so I thought I'd make sure folks knew I didn't mean any offense.

Fire in the Hole
07-03-2009, 11:48 PM
I've been doing 5150's for 30 years all over and up and down CA. I've never had the luxury of a medic unit taking the patient in for me. Unless they display injuries that require first-aid. It's a you catch 'em, you clean 'em situation. I'm the one that takes them into custody. I transport. I have to sit in the lobby and complete the paperwork with the patient, before I'm even allowed to get them looked at. My "paperwork" on 5150's is very simple. One page. I outline my PC for believing the person is a 5150. I take them in and leave. The Dr. does not over-ride my case. He agrees or not. When a cop arrests for 5150, he is not making a final judgement. he's just saying basically, "I think this guy is a nut job. What do you think Doc?" Although I've never had one disagree with my assessment, nor for that matter any other Peace Officer's that I've ever heard of. I don't even wait around for a Psych Dr. to see the patient. After hours or on weekends it takes a couple of hours for them to get there anyway. I usually just hand them off, give the nurse my report, and say, "See ya on the flip flop." After a Dr. eventually looks at them, if he agrees, then they get sent off to a true psyche ward. Or if he were to disagree they get sent out the back door with a pat on the fanny if no other crime was comitted. Officially I don't even get notified of the result with the new HIPPA laws.

AirflowPimp
07-03-2009, 11:58 PM
I've been doing 5150's for 30 years all over and up and down CA. I've never had the luxury of a medic unit taking the patient in for me. Unless they display injuries that require first-aid. It's a you catch 'em, you clean 'em situation. I'm the one that takes them into custody. I transport. I have to sit in the lobby and complete the paperwork with the patient, before I'm even allowed to get them looked at. My "paperwork" on 5150's is very simple. One page. I outline my PC for believing the person is a 5150. I take them in and leave. The Dr. does not over-ride my case. He agrees or not. When a cop arrests for 5150, he is not making a final judgement. he's just saying basically, "I think this guy is a nut job. What do you think Doc?" Although I've never had one disagree with my assessment, nor for that matter any other Peace Officer's that I've ever heard of. I don't even wait around for a Psych Dr. to see the patient. After hours or on weekends it takes a couple of hours for them to get there anyway. I usually just hand them off, give the nurse my report, and say, "See ya on the flip flop." After a Dr. eventually looks at them, if he agrees, then they get sent off to a true psyche ward. Or if he were to disagree they get sent out the back door with a pat on the fanny if no other crime was comitted. Officially I don't even get notified of the result with the new HIPPA laws.


Well, you must haven never worked in Fresno County in the recent years, because we are called to transport all 5150's to the proper location, medical complaint or not.


BTW...My interpretation of "Cop Bashing" is bashing ALL law enforcement officers...or in other words grouping all of one type of person, be it profession, race, etc., into one group. Also can be known as profiling, stereotyping, etc. I CLEARLY stated that there were SOME officers...blah blah blah. So what I was doing was bashing the SPECIFIC TYPES of officers who do these things.

So Fireinthehole and Retired, let me put it to you this way: There are some medics/EMTs who do stupid and/or lazy things as well. Now if you will look at that line, can you honestly say (being that I am one myself) that I am Medic/EMT bashing? No! I am bashing the specific medics/EMT's who do those things. You see where I'm going with this?

B.D.Dubloon
07-03-2009, 11:59 PM
I've been doing 5150's for 30 years all over and up and down CA. I've never had the luxury of a medic unit taking the patient in for me. Unless they display injuries that require first-aid. It's a you catch 'em, you clean 'em situation. I'm the one that takes them into custody. I transport. I have to sit in the lobby and complete the paperwork with the patient, before I'm even allowed to get them looked at. My "paperwork" on 5150's is very simple. One page. I outline my PC for believing the person is a 5150. I take them in and leave. The Dr. does not over-ride my case. He agrees or not. When a cop arrests for 5150, he is not making a final judgement. he's just saying basically, "I think this guy is a nut job. What do you think Doc?" Although I've never had one disagree with my assessment, nor for that matter any other Peace Officer's that I've ever heard of. I don't even wait around for a Psych Dr. to see the patient. After hours or on weekends it takes a couple of hours for them to get there anyway. I usually just hand them off, give the nurse my report, and say, "See ya on the flip flop." After a Dr. eventually looks at them, if he agrees, then they get sent off to a true psyche ward. Or if he were to disagree they get sent out the back door with a pat on the fanny if no other crime was comitted. Officially I don't even get notified of the result with the new HIPPA laws.

I don't think I've ever seen a 5150 not accepted as a BHU patient, granted my experience is a small fraction of yours. Cops where I work usually bring them to the back hallway of our BHU (at this point they are locked in and not getting out until a doctor clears them), frisk them and we take over. One of the mental health workers frisk them again and they are invited to walk onto the unit or we drag them to isolation (relatively rare).

There was one time where (I am not sure the details, this is just what the EMTs who brought him in told me) someone called an ambulance for a drunk hobo near a very popular tourist area and also the cops. The ambulance folks checked him out and he was fine, but the cops made them (not sure how they would do this, but this is what I was told) take him to us anyway. After he stunk up the ER for a couple hours and talked a whole bunch of **** (while totally restrained) we wheeled him outside (doctor's orders) to the ambulance dock until the PD came to pick him up an hour or so later.

retired
07-04-2009, 12:27 AM
AirflowPimp, it really does not matter whether you said all, some or even one when you made the remark about laziness. You are bashing a leo plain and simple. Your opinion that you are not is not the measure of whether it is or not. What Kestryll wrote in his sticky is and that is what is being enforced.

Do not do it anymore. Reread Kestryll's sticky about the rules for this particular forum; especially #3 and #6

Feel free to present your opinion on whom you believe should handle 5150s and why, then let the debate flow from that. Thanks for your cooperation.

FLIGHT762
07-04-2009, 6:23 AM
I've been doing 5150's for 30 years all over and up and down CA. I've never had the luxury of a medic unit taking the patient in for me. Unless they display injuries that require first-aid. It's a you catch 'em, you clean 'em situation. I'm the one that takes them into custody. I transport. I have to sit in the lobby and complete the paperwork with the patient, before I'm even allowed to get them looked at. My "paperwork" on 5150's is very simple. One page. I outline my PC for believing the person is a 5150. I take them in and leave. The Dr. does not over-ride my case. He agrees or not. When a cop arrests for 5150, he is not making a final judgement. he's just saying basically, "I think this guy is a nut job. What do you think Doc?" Although I've never had one disagree with my assessment, nor for that matter any other Peace Officer's that I've ever heard of. I don't even wait around for a Psych Dr. to see the patient. After hours or on weekends it takes a couple of hours for them to get there anyway. I usually just hand them off, give the nurse my report, and say, "See ya on the flip flop." After a Dr. eventually looks at them, if he agrees, then they get sent off to a true psyche ward. Or if he were to disagree they get sent out the back door with a pat on the fanny if no other crime was comitted. Officially I don't even get notified of the result with the new HIPPA laws.

This is the same way I did this for 28 years. This was in San Mateo County. We transported the 5150's in our patrol cars to the Hospital and filled out the 5150 hold forms at the E/R. The only time EMS transported was on a medical call for service.

Fire in the Hole
07-04-2009, 8:14 AM
Im saying the paper work comes to the Hospital with the patient.
If there NOT 5150 the paper work get sealed there in a folder.
What is LCSW?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.

Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.

So what you're saying is that the paperwork never arrives at the facility if the Psych Doc or LCSW at the facility reviews the paperwork brought to the facility evaluates the patient and decides that they don't need to be committed...
07-04-2009 04:01 AM

There is no "Over Ride" here. This is not a trial. The paperwork does not stop. LEO's have to finish whatever they've started in any "In-Custody" situation. Leo's can't just abort a paper trail. The DR or Nurse needs to be able to read what the LEO writes on the 5150 hold form, to know what they are facing with the patient, and what angle to take. An LEO's 5150 form is considered as a "Suggestion" or "Reccomendation". LEO's usually speak with the DR or nurse briefly as well to give them further insight into the case. Again. I've never heard of a LEO's 5150 case not being affrirmed. It's really not all that hard to spot one. A true 5150 is going to be pretty obvious, and has usually behaved in such a "crazy" manner as to have a citizen call 911 to report them in the first place. When LE encounters them on the fly, an LEO can tell what he's dealing with after a few seconds. Lots of times 5150's are the elderly Altzheimer person who's wandered off from home while there spouse/care taker is in the shower of something. If this has happened before, and a neighbor, can tell the LEO, "That's old Joe, he lives about 10 houses down the street in the greeen and white house, he does this all the time." Then the LEO just drives old Joe in his underwear back home without any official paperwork.

fairfaxjim
07-04-2009, 9:36 AM
All admissions "to public and private mental health facilities under Welfare and Institutions Code (WIG) sections 5150/5151/5152 (danger to self/danger to others (DTSO)) pursuant to WIC section 8103 (f)(2)" MUST be reported to DOJ for firearms prohibition enforcement. This is since Sept. 1999. There was a short, May 1997 to Sept. 1999 period where this was not enforced due to court order, but then after the law was changed, the AG required facilities to "go back over 5150/5151/5152 paperwork and report them retoractively.

The 1999 law also added the step of formal notification via discharge documents of the patient's now prohibition on firearms owndership for 5 years as a result of being admitted, inclluding for 5150/5151/5152, and their rights to petition for relief from this prohibition.

No matter what the Fed law is, CA DOES require reporting to the DOJ, and prohibit firearm ownership for 5 years, ANYONE admitted for 5150 evaluation. YOU have to go to court and petition for it's removal, even if it is a voluntary admission. I do not know at what point you are "legally admitted" to a facility, but I assume that once the LEO hands you and the paperwork over to the facility - usually long before the MD evaluates you, you are "admitted."

For certain, if you are given the "prohibition notice" upon discharge, you have been admitted, reported, and are ofically now "prohibited."

The temporary suspension of this for 5150/5151/5152 1997-1999 was because the court found there was not due process. The addition of the notification and avenue to petition for removal satisfied that requirement. In effect, you are still denied due process to be prohibited, but you now have "due process" to TRY to undo your being railroaded, after the fact.
Welcom to Kalifornia comrade!

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Fire in the hole,
Worng,
It's really not all that hard to spot one. A true 5150 is going to be pretty obvious, and has usually behaved in such a "crazy" manner as to have a citizen call 911 to report them in the first place.

There's a lot of different 5150s. Some are obvious some are not. Sure you have your paper work to do. At the Hospital the paper work stops in Sealed folder if there not a 5150. It would be a HIPPO violation for the hospital to make it public information.

And the Doctor and Mental health worker can over ride ANY LEO. It's your OPINION of a 5150. Your not a Doctor or a Mental Health worker and not trained in this field.
They are and can throw you 5150 paper in the trash if they see it different.
I work in an ER i see it happen alot.

Fire in the Hole
07-04-2009, 11:05 AM
I can see it now. Actually I know of one specific case. ie. 5150 gets discharged from ER. Report gets destroyed. The next day (within 72 hrs.) the same 5150 commits a violent crime against a person, and gets arrested. Victim of the crime gets an attorney. Attorney files a discovery motion for the original 5150 report. Disposition of ER staff ensues. Where's the paperwork?

Attorney: "It's our intention to sue this hospital and you for incompetence for releasing a person who has an alleged history of being a 5150, and thereby facilitating a crime against my client, the victim. Dr., let's go over the 5150 hold the Officer filled out, presented to you, which you reviewed, and determined that the 5150 did not pose a threat to himself or any other person. I have some very specific questions I'd like to ask you about this case. I have proof of service that you have received my discovery notice duces tecum for all related reports." "Shall we proceed?"

Dr. along with Hospital attorney: "Umm.. can we have a moment."

AirflowPimp
07-04-2009, 1:46 PM
AirflowPimp, it really does not matter whether you said all, some or even one when you made the remark about laziness. You are bashing a leo plain and simple. Your opinion that you are not is not the measure of whether it is or not. What Kestryll wrote in his sticky is and that is what is being enforced.

Do not do it anymore. Reread Kestryll's sticky about the rules for this particular forum; especially #3 and #6

Feel free to present your opinion on whom you believe should handle 5150s and why, then let the debate flow from that. Thanks for your cooperation.

You can stop talking anytime. I have read the rules and did not violate them in any way. I NEVER cop bashed (in general). I copied the rules and bolded some stuff to help you with your reading comprehension. I support officers all the time on the various forums that I post on. My brother is an LEO and I am actuallt sitting in his living room right now typing this while he looks over my shoulder laughing at the accusation of me "cop bashing". Obviously you are a very sensative person, so I guess I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and brush the cop bashing accusation off my shoulder and forgive you for falsely accusing me. I appologize for any implied "bashing" that you may have percieved. Have a good 4th and lets all stay on the same team. :thumbsup:
1. This forum is for Calguns LEO members and those who would like to ask questions in a civil manner.

2. This forum is to give our LEO members a place to share their stories, pictures and videos as well as answer serious questions from the membership.

3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

4. Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.

5. Questions for LEOs should be both civil and serious. Questions like 'Why do you thugs..' will get you removed and possibly banned. Frivolous questions will be deleted.

6. 'Cop Bashing' will NOT be tolerated in this forum at all.

7. In addition to these special rules, the standard rules still apply here as well.

SVT-40
07-04-2009, 2:41 PM
Very different deal in L.A. County. Medical workers, EMT's, Paramedics, firemen or whom ever, have ZERO NADA say whether a 5150WIC get committed. Unless there is some medical reason the PD usually transports the "victim" to the mental facility fills out the 5150 WIC advisement form, gives the advisement. Then away they go. If the facility later releases them after a further evaluation no big deal that's what they are there for.

If the "victim" is transported by ambulance the LEO just follows it the the mental facility. the ambulance is just a mental health taxi service. Nothing more.


In fact many medical Doctors (who by the way can make 5150 commitments) try and call the cop's to make the commitment for them. They just don't want to do the paperwork, and arrange their own transportation.

I would usually just refuse. and tell them to do their jobs.

AirflowPimp
07-04-2009, 2:48 PM
Very different deal in L.A. County. Medical workers, EMT's, Paramedics, firemen or whom ever, have ZERO NADA say whether a 5150WIC get committed. Unless there is some medical reason the PD usually transports the "victim" to the mental facility fills out the 5150 WIC advisement form, gives the advisement. Then away they go. If the facility later releases them after a further evaluation no big deal that's what they are there for.

If the "victim" is transported by ambulance the LEO just follows it the the mental facility. the ambulance is just a mental health taxi service. Nothing more.


In fact many medical Doctors (who by the way can make 5150 commitments) try and call the cop's to make the commitment for them. They just don't want to do the paperwork, and arrange their own transportation.

I would usually just refuse. and tell them to do their jobs.


Yeah, definately different. In fresno county the LEO calls us to the scene priority 3 for a "behavioral emergency." The LEO finishes the paperwork, then gives us the original hand written hold and we take them to either the hospital (if there is a complaint) or the mental health facility (if there is no complaint). They NEVER tx the person. I am beginning to envy other counties on this matter...hahaha

B.D.Dubloon
07-04-2009, 4:33 PM
Fire in the hole,
Worng,
It's really not all that hard to spot one. A true 5150 is going to be pretty obvious, and has usually behaved in such a "crazy" manner as to have a citizen call 911 to report them in the first place.

There's a lot of different 5150s. Some are obvious some are not. Sure you have your paper work to do. At the Hospital the paper work stops in Sealed folder if there not a 5150. It would be a HIPPO violation for the hospital to make it public information.

And the Doctor and Mental health worker can over ride ANY LEO. It's your OPINION of a 5150. Your not a Doctor or a Mental Health worker and not trained in this field.
They are and can throw you 5150 paper in the trash if they see it different.
I work in an ER i see it happen alot.

Stop calling it a HIPPO violation, all of your coworkers are laughing at you, if you do in fact work in an ER. Are you housekeeping or engineering? I only ask because I can't figure out how you wouldn't know it is HIPAA if you did work frequently in the ER. Come to think of it, even housekeeping and engineering should know about HIPAA.

Fire in the Hole
07-04-2009, 4:52 PM
[QUOTE=B.D.Dubloon;2725943]Stop calling it a HIPPO violation.


I can see no good coming from violating a hippo.

fairfaxjim
07-04-2009, 5:26 PM
[QUOTE=B.D.Dubloon;2725943]Stop calling it a HIPPO violation.


I can see no good coming from violating a hippo.

Don't knock it until you've - ah nevermind!:D

Kestryll
07-04-2009, 6:12 PM
You can stop talking anytime.
Not the wisest thing to tell a Mod...

Enjoy the flowers and shrubbery during your time off...

B.D.Dubloon
07-04-2009, 6:16 PM
Not the wisest thing to tell a Mod...

Enjoy the flowers and shrubbery during your time off...

Kes, don't forget to change retired's designation from senior member to mod.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-04-2009, 8:28 PM
B.D.Dubloon,
Yes I work in an ER. Im not housekeeping or engineering.

Yes, it's a HIPPAA violation to talk about patients medical records.
It was a typo that you were not smart enough to figure out.
Have you ever worked with a 5150 patient? I don't really care because Im done with this thread.

SVT-40
07-04-2009, 9:17 PM
One other thing you non LEO types might not know. After you commit the person on a 5150 WIC hold you give the treatment facility one copy of the commitment form. You then take another copy and attach it to your police report.

Our agency titled all 5150 WIC holds as "alleged mentally I'll" reports PER 5150WIC

You then wrote a report detailing the circumstances of the commitment. The report was a much more detailed story of the entire contact with the "victim" as they were called in the report. The original 5150 WIC for was then attached to the report .

Once the report passed through the records system a secretary would make the necessary entrys into the CLETS and NCIC computer systems. regarding the firearms prohibition.

Even if a mental health facility later released the "victim" the information was still documented and the entrys made. As the "victim" had still originally been committed.

B.D.Dubloon
07-05-2009, 5:19 PM
B.D.Dubloon,
Yes I work in an ER. Im not housekeeping or engineering.

Yes, it's a HIPPAA violation to talk about patients medical records.
It was a typo that you were not smart enough to figure out.
Have you ever worked with a 5150 patient? I don't really care because Im done with this thread.

Wrong again, it is not a "HIPPAA," it is a HIPAA violation. That may be a typo (I doubt it though).

It wasn't a typo. A typo is where you hit the wrong key instead of the one you intended. (for example, if you had typed JIPAA [accidentally hitting the J when you meant to hit H]) You typed HIPPO because you thought that was what HIPPA (this here would also be a typo, double tapping the P instead of the A) was. Your calling it HIPPO was not a typo, it was ignorance. No sweat of my back, I was just trying to help, give you a head's up so that you aren't making dumb mistakes at work.


In response to your last question, yes read some of my posts in this thread, I am a security guard in a BHU (which you may not know is where they put 5150s).

rg_1111@yahoo.com
07-05-2009, 6:22 PM
If I cared more about my account, I'd think more before I posted.

Edited -leelaw

Kestryll
07-05-2009, 6:47 PM
Stop calling it a HIPPO violation, all of your coworkers are laughing at you, if you do in fact work in an ER. Are you housekeeping or engineering? I only ask because I can't figure out how you wouldn't know it is HIPAA if you did work frequently in the ER. Come to think of it, even housekeeping and engineering should know about HIPAA.

Who gives a damn what he calls it, knock off the trolling crap or I'll bounce BOTH OF YOU THE HELL OFF THIS FORUM!!!!

This bickering crap is REALLY PISSING ME OFF!!


IS THIS CLEAR??

B.D.Dubloon
07-05-2009, 6:54 PM
Who gives a damn what he calls it, knock off the trolling crap or I'll bounce BOTH OF YOU THE HELL OFF THIS FORUM!!!!

This bickering crap is REALLY PISSING ME OFF!!


IS THIS CLEAR??

Jeez.

p7m8jg
07-05-2009, 9:11 PM
I know everybody gets concerned about these situations under W&I 5150. The fact remains that if you are going through hard times (as everyone does at one time or another) and you "voluntarily" commit yourself to a treatment facility, the firearms restriction only lasts as long as you're committed to that facility(yeah, like you'd have a gun there anyway). When you get out from a "voluntary" commitment, there is no restriction on firearms ownership.

It's the INvoluntary committment to worry about, and then the firearms restriction lasts 5 years (better than forever), and you have the right to have a hearing in Superior Court to remove the restriction. A lot of people do this.

I"ve done them both ways - sometimes I've argued to the Judge - "Absolutely not" and other times I've said "No objection to removing the firearms restriction." It all depends on how serious the mental illness is, how long lasting, how many previous commitments, and how serious the person is about seeking treatment and making it so everybody is safe.

And I appreciate Kestryll's moderation of the forum. Thanks.

1911_sfca
07-17-2009, 9:15 AM
You are totally wrong, starting from paragraph #1. Please don't post when you don't know what you're talking about.

Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

p7m8jg
07-17-2009, 10:56 AM
All admissions "to public and private mental health facilities under Welfare and Institutions Code (WIG) sections 5150/5151/5152 (danger to self/danger to others (DTSO)) pursuant to WIC section 8103 (f)(2)" MUST be reported to DOJ for firearms prohibition enforcement. This is since Sept. 1999. There was a short, May 1997 to Sept. 1999 period where this was not enforced due to court order, but then after the law was changed, the AG required facilities to "go back over 5150/5151/5152 paperwork and report them retoractively.

The 1999 law also added the step of formal notification via discharge documents of the patient's now prohibition on firearms owndership for 5 years as a result of being admitted, inclluding for 5150/5151/5152, and their rights to petition for relief from this prohibition.

No matter what the Fed law is, CA DOES require reporting to the DOJ, and prohibit firearm ownership for 5 years, ANYONE admitted for 5150 evaluation. YOU have to go to court and petition for it's removal, even if it is a voluntary admission. I do not know at what point you are "legally admitted" to a facility, but I assume that once the LEO hands you and the paperwork over to the facility - usually long before the MD evaluates you, you are "admitted."

For certain, if you are given the "prohibition notice" upon discharge, you have been admitted, reported, and are ofically now "prohibited."

The temporary suspension of this for 5150/5151/5152 1997-1999 was because the court found there was not due process. The addition of the notification and avenue to petition for removal satisfied that requirement. In effect, you are still denied due process to be prohibited, but you now have "due process" to TRY to undo your being railroaded, after the fact.
Welcom to Kalifornia comrade!

+1 - nicely said.

ALCO HK
07-21-2009, 2:51 PM
Dont get me started