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HondaMasterTech
05-01-2009, 10:09 PM
I have found information showing number of ccw issued. Im looking for statistical data regarding apply vs. denial rate. ie, how many apply and get denied. ( for reasons of "good cause" )

DDT
05-01-2009, 10:18 PM
It's not really pertinent data at this point. In most counties the system is designed to make it difficult or impossible to actually apply unless you are confident of being approved. This is one of the ways they keep the system from being challenged.

HondaMasterTech
05-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Can you elaborate on difficult to apply?

CCWFacts
05-01-2009, 10:47 PM
I have found information showing number of ccw issued. Im looking for statistical data regarding apply vs. denial rate. ie, how many apply and get denied. ( for reasons of "good cause" )

It's probably very low, especially in the no-issue locations.

They practice something that I call "denial by run-around", meaning that they take a lot of steps to discourage people from even applying. People have had to sue to even get an application in some cases. They have decided who will and will not get a permit before the person even applies, and for those who will not get it, they tell them very firmly and clearly, "you will not get a permit". At that point, most people will not apply, because there's no reason to.

Flopper
05-01-2009, 10:50 PM
i don't think he meant the process itself is difficult. it seems to be very straightforward, right up to the point where they deny you!

when he said "difficult or impossible," he means almost all who desire a CCW don't even bother applying for one in a non-issue county because it would be futile.

because of this, the statistics showing a denial rate will be much lower than the true denial rate, which would have to account for the great majority who never apply.

ETA: AH, CCWFacts beat me to it!

DDT
05-01-2009, 11:00 PM
Can you elaborate on difficult to apply?

Applications are not always immediately available and police administrative staff will inform you that it is very unlikely to be issued unless you have very specific good cause, sometimes it's been reported they even tell interested parties that it is the sheriff's policy to not issue at all. I have also heard that some will set up appointments for you to talk to a deputy for a "good cause" discussion. At the end of these meetings they typically tell you your good cause is not acceptable to discourage you from filling out the application. I think some might require you to pay the entire fee upfront too, and submit your livescan etc. simultaneously.

7222 Hawker
05-01-2009, 11:50 PM
Go to Tuolumne County. The Sheriff there is a stand up guy and no problems with CCW.

7222 Hawker
05-01-2009, 11:52 PM
Applications are not always immediately available and police administrative staff will inform you that it is very unlikely to be issued unless you have very specific good cause, sometimes it's been reported they even tell interested parties that it is the sheriff's policy to not issue at all. I have also heard that some will set up appointments for you to talk to a deputy for a "good cause" discussion. At the end of these meetings they typically tell you your good cause is not acceptable to discourage you from filling out the application. I think some might require you to pay the entire fee upfront too, and submit your livescan etc. simultaneously.

All depends on the county. Not all LEO's are jackass liberals.

yellowfin
05-02-2009, 12:06 AM
Even being a liberal or a jackass is no excuse for it. They are nothing short of either a sociopath (defined as one who shamelessly has no regard for human life) or a despot.

nicki
05-02-2009, 1:41 AM
The way it is "supposed to work" is that everyone has the "right to apply" and everyone's application is "supposed to be given fair consideration".

A good way to measure how departments are handling CCW permits is how much trouble is it to even get a application.

If a department has a online resource, but CCW permits are not listed, that usually is not a good sign.

If you get the run around, that is not a good sign either.

If this state was shall issue, we would probably have between 400 to 1 million CCW permits issued. The number that are issued is around 40,000.

The real number of denials is significantly higher than the official record because if someone doesn't actually fill out and submit the CCW application, there is no record of denial.

Nicki

bruceflinch
05-02-2009, 6:53 AM
Even being a liberal or a jackass is no excuse for it. They are nothing short of either a sociopath (defined as one who shamelessly has no regard for human life) or a despot.

Wow! You got some issues. I've met very few liberal LEO's. They do have a different mindset, but I think that comes w/ the job. Percentage-wise, I think there is as many bad cops as bad citizens.

RomanDad
05-02-2009, 7:17 AM
The "I cant get an application" thing really is not that much of an issue any more.... It certainly was a decade ago.... But now the Cal DOJ Standard application is readily available online from a multitude of sources. I suppose there is still an issue of "Who do I give it to" but that can be overcome easily enough.



The bigger issue in the "Fear of application" problem is the fact that if your application is denied, and then lets say you move to a more liberal county in terms of issuance (or if the law were to change), you have disclose that your previous application was denied on the new application.

There is always this little fear that that denial will act as a "black mark" on your character and that one denial could haunt you forever in CCW applications.... This is a form of psychological warfare that has been successfully used for a LONG TIME to keep people from even trying to apply.

Librarian
05-02-2009, 7:26 AM
I have found information showing number of ccw issued. Im looking for statistical data regarding apply vs. denial rate. ie, how many apply and get denied. ( for reasons of "good cause" )

Along with the other replies, you should read Jim March's site, http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/

Getting the information will require you to contact all of the Sheriffs and all of the CLEOs who are issuing agencies, and probably you will need Public Records Access Requests (PRAR) followed by lawsuits to get the agencies to properly comply.

HondaMasterTech
05-02-2009, 6:59 PM
I dont think I have the time to do much footwork to compile the statistics myself. I was hoping that somwhere someone already had. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

CCWFacts
05-02-2009, 7:39 PM
The "I cant get an application" thing really is not that much of an issue any more.... It certainly was a decade ago.... But now the Cal DOJ Standard application is readily available online from a multitude of sources. I suppose there is still an issue of "Who do I give it to" but that can be overcome easily enough.

In fact one of the suits over "I can't get an app" was the successful March v. Rupf. Anyway, yeah, that problem is solved, but they make the application process so expensive and cumbersome (training, and also psych eval, liability insurance, blah blah blah), and they tell the person "you're not going to get one" at every step of the way, that there's no reason for anyone to apply unless that person has been pre-approved.

There is always this little fear that that denial will act as a "black mark" on your character and that one denial could haunt you forever in CCW applications.... This is a form of psychological warfare that has been successfully used for a LONG TIME to keep people from even trying to apply.

That too. I don't know how real that concern is, but it's at least possible. They're told they're going to be denied, the process is expensive and a lot of hassle, and they know they'll get a bad mark on their record from it. That's enough reason for most people to decide not to apply.

I assume there are few if any denials in many no-issue locations for these reasons.

If a denial didn't result in any bad record, and if the person could have his GC pre-approved for free or for only a modest fee (before having to pay for the rest of the application process), I'm sure the situation would be different. But even so, in no-issue locations, a lot of people who would want a CCW would still not bother to even get their GC evaluated if they know it won't work.

Kid Stanislaus
05-02-2009, 7:49 PM
Go to Tuolumne County. The Sheriff there is a stand up guy and no problems with CCW.


I was told the rejection rate there is in excess of 60%.

gcvt
05-02-2009, 7:56 PM
I can tell you what the denial rate is in San Francisco :p

Librarian
05-02-2009, 9:54 PM
I dont think I have the time to do much footwork to compile the statistics myself. I was hoping that somwhere someone already had. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
The difficulty of gathering the data is why no one, to my knowledge, has collected it. Such information could be used to attack issuing policies, and so the stats remain buried. That's why I referred you to Jim March's site - that's exactly what he had in mind a few years ago.

vrand
05-02-2009, 10:35 PM
Go to Tuolumne County. The Sheriff there is a stand up guy and no problems with CCW.

:thumbsup:

rsandovaljr
05-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Hear is the statistics of people who get permits. 2 people in San Francisco.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ccwissuances2007.pdf

nicki
05-03-2009, 10:24 AM
The difficulty of gathering the data is why no one, to my knowledge, has collected it. Such information could be used to attack issuing policies, and so the stats remain buried. That's why I referred you to Jim March's site - that's exactly what he had in mind a few years ago.
__________________


Jim tried to do that, but ran into major non compliance with Public records act requests.

The state since has improved the public records act requests law, but our problem is prying the data out of the sheriffs.

Ultimately, what we will need are lawyers up and down the state who will take all cases where we have non compliance with the PRA.

As a private citizen, from what I understand, we can't get lawyer fees.
A lawyer can however.

Using the PRA effectively would turn some jurisdictions into "shall issue" with modest effort.

Nicki

Can'thavenuthingood
05-03-2009, 10:52 AM
I'd think this psych testing is another concern. What if, in his opinion, the evaluator thinks you need more testing? Where does that road lead to, disarmament? Surrender of your otherwise legal weapons?
Really, in their eyes we're all nuts:)

Define compelling evidence.

Vick

Psychological Testing (http://www.ninehundred.net/%7Eequalccw/ca_ccw_app.pdf)
In addition to licensing requirements as specified by the licensing authority, jurisdictions may require psychological testing
on the initial application. If required, the applicant shall be referred to a licensed psychologist used by the licensing
authority for the psychological testing of its own employees. Any fees charged will be the responsibility of the applicant
and such fees shall not exceed $150.00 for an initial test. Additional psychological testing of an applicant seeking license
renewal shall be required only if there is compelling evidence to indicate that a test is necessary (PC section 12054(c)).

Turo
05-03-2009, 2:41 PM
Hear is the statistics of people who get permits. 2 people in San Francisco.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ccwissuances2007.pdf

Awesome! my county is in the top 3 or 4 on issuance. Looking to apply for one as soon as I can. Probably helps that someone in the fam. already has one and is friends with the sheriff.