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Super Spy
05-01-2009, 2:48 PM
I know a felon can't own or possess a firearm....I also have a couple I'm friends with, he's an ex-con, off probation/parole.

What if I drive to the range with my gun and ammo, they take their car seperately and meet me there, can he shoot?

What if he stand three feet away and she shoots, is he legal?

CSDGuy
05-01-2009, 2:50 PM
Felon holding firearm = Felon in possession.

626Tony
05-01-2009, 2:50 PM
you answered your own question

"I know a felon can't own or possess a firearm"

sfpcservice
05-01-2009, 2:52 PM
I felon can shoot a gun. However, they may not shoot a gun.

Seriously though, your friend should know whether he/she is prohibited or not. If they aren't sure, I think a call to DOJ might be a good place to start.

CSDGuy
05-01-2009, 2:56 PM
A Felon standing 3 feet from me while I shoot and I maintain possession and control of the weapon = Felon not in legal deep doo doo. Why? The Felon is not in possession of the firearm. Ever. Now if, for some strange reason, we're contacted by Law Enforcement, we may have to run through the legal system to prove Felon never had possession/control. That's something I'd rather not have to do.

deleted by PC police
05-01-2009, 2:58 PM
I guess I can tag onto this question. I have a good friend that stole some sheet metal from the company he worked for. He got a big F for that but I'm hearing that it is gone off his record now as he has payed the company back for what he took. I don't want to put myself or him in a position of getting in trouble so how do I verify someone is no longer a felon.

oops
05-01-2009, 3:14 PM
they took a felony conviction off his record for simply paying them back?

deleted by PC police
05-01-2009, 3:16 PM
I'm not sure of the details, I'm hearing the info 3rd party. That's why I want to find out.

M1A Rifleman
05-01-2009, 3:17 PM
Really, a criminal conviction, even a felony will "drop off your record" if you pay the victim back. I doubt it, but again, this is California. :mad:

What amazes me is how many on this board report they have friends with criminal convictions and they want to pal around with and go shooting.

Turbinator
05-01-2009, 3:19 PM
Not all felonies are violent or otherwise sketchy in nature. Some are for white collar crime and sometimes felonies are given out to people who, IMHO, didn't really deserve them or are otherwise being used as legal examples.

Turby

deleted by PC police
05-01-2009, 3:23 PM
Really, a criminal conviction, even a felony will "drop off your record" if you pay the victim back. I doubt it, but again, this is California. :mad: This is in Utah.

What amazes me is how many on this board report they have friends with criminal convictions and they want to pal around with and go shooting.He made a mistake, served his time and paid the company he stole from back. Do you really want to take someone's rights for LIFE for one stupid act?

M. Sage
05-01-2009, 3:30 PM
Felon holding firearm = Felon in possession.

[/thread]

CSDGuy said it all right there.

they took a felony conviction off his record for simply paying them back?

Yeah, really. It doesn't work that way.

Really, a criminal conviction, even a felony will "drop off your record" if you pay the victim back. I doubt it, but again, this is California. :mad:

Doesn't matter what state, it doesn't work that way. He might be able to get it expunged at some point... maybe.

hawk1
05-01-2009, 4:15 PM
This is in Utah.

He made a mistake, served his time and paid the company he stole from back. Do you really want to take someone's rights for LIFE for one stupid act?

Everyone has a differing opinion of what 'one stupid act' is. Mine maybe worse than yours, or not. But in the end, we all need to know what the consequences are for when you cross that line.
I think they call it a deterrent.

2ATom
05-01-2009, 4:16 PM
This is in Utah.

He made a mistake, served his time and paid the company he stole from back. Do you really want to take someone's rights for LIFE for one stupid act?

I agree with the law. A felon is a felon so don't take your eyes off him. He does not make good decisions as he has demonstrated. The law takes that in to account thereby protecting the rest of us from his next bad decision. At least, his next mistake won't be with a weapon. :confused:

domokun
05-01-2009, 4:24 PM
Short answer is NO.

Jaiofspam
05-01-2009, 4:26 PM
nope

Stan_Humphries
05-01-2009, 4:53 PM
Felons shoot guns all the time...

They must not know about our "common sense" gun control laws here in the U.S..

"Common sense" tells us that if the felons knew they would be breaking the law when handling a firearm, then they would never go near one.

Perhaps we should start a campaign to educate felons about the federal laws restricting their possession of guns.

I mean, what felon is willing to risk his livelihood and reputation in the community over something as trivial as being in possession of a firearm? They have already gone through the legal system at least once - doubtful they will risk having to go through it again.



(I know, not a helpful answer to your specific question...)

GaryV
05-01-2009, 5:29 PM
Felons shooting guns is a big no-no. And the Feds take it VERY seriously. The penalties are severe, and since it's fed time, there's no time off for good behavior. One of the indoor ranges I go to has at least three of their rental guns out right now to the sheriff's department as evidence in such cases. People come in, rent a gun, and often don't even realize that some long-ago conviction still makes them illegal. Very, very bad consequences. Unless your friend has gone through the process of having his rights officially restored, he shouldn't be anywhere near a firearm unless he wants to spend a good portion of the rest of his life in a federal pen.

BTF/PTM
05-01-2009, 5:52 PM
Felons shoot guns all the time... They're usually the ones we read about in postings dealing with some nut firing an automatic weapon in an intersection.

SteveH
05-01-2009, 5:57 PM
Not all felonies are violent or otherwise sketchy in nature. Some are for white collar crime and sometimes felonies are given out to people who, IMHO, didn't really deserve them or are otherwise being used as legal examples.

Turby

You have to try pretty hard to get convicted of a felony in california. With all the wobblers, courts flexing straight felonies down to misdemeanors even when not allowed by statute, diversion, ect.

You dont catch a felony conviction like the common cold.

dreamerof1
05-01-2009, 6:47 PM
You know, for a bunch of guys that rely on a couple of ounces of metal to separate them from a felony firearms offense, some of you have some pretty absolute views about felons.

BTF/PTM
05-01-2009, 7:24 PM
You know, for a bunch of guys that rely on a couple of ounces of metal to separate them from a felony firearms offense, some of you have some pretty absolute views about felons. Are you referring to a police badge when you say "a couple ounces of metal"?

M. Sage
05-01-2009, 7:25 PM
Are you referring to a police badge when you say "a couple ounces of metal"?

I'd have to bet he's referring to the bullet button.

BTF/PTM
05-01-2009, 7:28 PM
If he's referring to a bullet button then it's an invalid argument. Using a lawful device (the bullet button) attached to an otherwise lawful machine (the gun, built to CA legal spec) in order to remain a lawful citizen (not a felon) and not deliberately break the law (like a felon did and often repeatedly does) does not make us "absolute" in our views.

If he's referring to a police badge, that's also an invalid argument. The police don't create felony convictions, the judge and jury do that.

Maybe he's referring to gold teef?

M. Sage
05-01-2009, 7:54 PM
Using a lawful device (the bullet button) attached to an otherwise lawful machine (the gun, built to CA legal spec) in order to remain a lawful citizen (not a felon) and not deliberately break the law (like a felon did and often repeatedly does) does not make us "absolute" in our views.

The bullet button is very close to felony territory, and there are those in law enforcement that would love to put you up in front of a jury on a felony charge because of it.

Not all felons deliberately break the law. Not nearly all felonies should be illegal. Of course, I'm sure you do things like pay CA's Use Tax on every little out-of-state purchase. There are many laws that I'm sure 99% of the population doesn't even know exist that are felonies...

dreamerof1
05-01-2009, 8:06 PM
M.Sage caught my drift. I'm not trying to draw any equivalency here. Just saying that we are all on the hairy edge of what is legal. I am downright scared when I look at how many things we have criminalized in our society. I believe there was a time when it was appropriate to deny all felons access to firearms, but we keep adding new ways to become felons.

All it takes is for someone to leave their magnetic tool in their BB and who knows...

BTF/PTM
05-01-2009, 8:27 PM
Don't hate me for asking, I'm asking geniunely; what types of felonies can you list that really shouldn't be considered felonies? Again, I'm asking geniunely cuz I really don't know. The worst crime I've ever been convicted of is speeding over 100mph, so I'm not well versed in the world of law and its corresponding representation.

El Gato
05-01-2009, 8:32 PM
Ok... chiming in...
Felon in possession of a gun at the firing range.... let's see... possible sentences... 16 months, 2 years or 3 years... PC 12021

However... last I looked... a Prop 36 processed felon can get the right to own/possess a long gun if probation is terminated/reduced to a misd. and dismissed....last I looked...a couple of years ago...

I have personally arrested lots of people for 12021... easy prison term in Kern...

M. Sage
05-01-2009, 8:35 PM
Don't hate me for asking, I'm asking geniunely; what types of felonies can you list that really shouldn't be considered felonies? Again, I'm asking geniunely cuz I really don't know. The worst crime I've ever been convicted of is speeding over 100mph, so I'm not well versed in the world of law and its corresponding representation.

Well, anything that is victimless shouldn't be a felony.

The CA AW ban is one very obvious example: violate it and you're a felon. No way should this stuff even be illegal, let alone a felony. 99% or more of CA's weapons code, in fact.

"Sexting". If a 15 year old sends a naughty picture to another 15 year old, it is not child pornography!

NFA laws.

Think on it for a bit. If you read about a criminal sent up for a felony, think "now who is the victim in this case?" If you can't name one, it shouldn't be a felony, and probably shouldn't be illegal. If it falls under this category (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) and not into this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se), it should by no means be a felony.

calixt0
05-01-2009, 8:40 PM
ok let me adjust the question a little. I am a legal gun owner and am taking a trip up to NV to shoot with some friends and family. Every gun is doj California compliant and I know by myself I shouldn't have any issues. Well I have MS and sometimes get dizzy and cant drive. My friend is with me and offers to drive while I'm having a dizzy spell. He is a convicted felon and doesn't plan on shooting but wanted to go see the mutual friends. When he is driving my car for me with guns in the back is he in trouble?

BTF/PTM
05-01-2009, 9:09 PM
Well, anything that is victimless shouldn't be a felony.

The CA AW ban is one very obvious example: violate it and you're a felon. No way should this stuff even be illegal, let alone a felony. 99% or more of CA's weapons code, in fact.

"Sexting". If a 15 year old sends a naughty picture to another 15 year old, it is not child pornography!

NFA laws.

Think on it for a bit. If you read about a criminal sent up for a felony, think "now who is the victim in this case?" If you can't name one, it shouldn't be a felony, and probably shouldn't be illegal. If it falls under this category (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) and not into this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se), it should by no means be a felony.

Thanks for helping to answer my question :thumbsup: I'll think on it more than a bit, as I said I don't know much about it and you've provided a nice starting point for my research.

What the hell is sexting?

dreamerof1
05-01-2009, 9:12 PM
Well, anything that is victimless shouldn't be a felony.

The CA AW ban is one very obvious example: violate it and you're a felon. No way should this stuff even be illegal, let alone a felony. 99% or more of CA's weapons code, in fact.

"Sexting". If a 15 year old sends a naughty picture to another 15 year old, it is not child pornography!

NFA laws.

Think on it for a bit. If you read about a criminal sent up for a felony, think "now who is the victim in this case?" If you can't name one, it shouldn't be a felony, and probably shouldn't be illegal. If it falls under this category (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) and not into this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se), it should by no means be a felony.

I'd add drug posession, prostitution, assisted suicide...etc

I also take issue with hate crime enhancements (though I don't know if they can elevate a misdemeanor to a felony, and I don't support the underlying criminal activity)

hvengel
05-02-2009, 12:46 PM
You have to try pretty hard to get convicted of a felony in california. With all the wobblers, courts flexing straight felonies down to misdemeanors even when not allowed by statute, diversion, ect.

You dont catch a felony conviction like the common cold.

It is not uncommon in most states to use "diversion" programs for first time offenders for non-violent crimes including crimes that are felonies. This usually consists of a period of probation and perhaps some type of restitution (IE. paying back the person you robbed, paying court costs, paying fines...). If you complete the probation and all of the other requirements the conviction is removed from your record. But until that happens you have a felony record and once it has happened you are a former felon who has had your rights restored.

One other thing to note that no one has pointed out. If you know or have a reason to believe someone is a prohibited person and you hand them a gun (even one that is not loaded or even a single bullet) then you have committed a crime. So make sure you know what is going on with your friend before you loan him a gun at the range.

One other thing to note. In many states non-cartridge guns (IE. ball and cap revolvers and muzzle loading rifles) are not considered firearms and can be legally owned and used by those with felony records.

M1A Rifleman
05-02-2009, 3:31 PM
He made a mistake, served his time and paid the company he stole from back. Do you really want to take someone's rights for LIFE for one stupid act?

Yes.

Your judged by the company you keep.

Hoop
05-02-2009, 5:06 PM
Really, a criminal conviction, even a felony will "drop off your record" if you pay the victim back. I doubt it, but again, this is California. :mad:

What amazes me is how many on this board report they have friends with criminal convictions and they want to pal around with and go shooting.

More than likely the charges were dumbed down or dropped. I know someone who got arrested for a DWI - he waits 9 months, FINALLY goes to court, and when they get there the DA says "FOOLED YOU!" - case dismissed.

the_quark
05-02-2009, 5:21 PM
What the hell is sexting?

Google it! :thumbsup:

Seriously, it's the MSM scare-name for when teenagers take pictures of themselves using their cell-phones and then email or MMS them to each other.

In many (all?) states, it's the act of transmitting or possessing salacious pictures of a minor that is in itself a crime (usually a serious felony). So, if a 15-year-old girl takes a topless picture of herself with her cell phone and sends it to her 15 year-old-boyfriend, she's guilty of creating and tracking in child pornography.

The legal theory behind all of this, I believe, is that pictures of nekkid (as opposed to naked) kids must imply that some kids are being sexually abused, and therefore they can criminalize trafficking in them as the trafficker is essentially an accessory to the sexual-abuse-of-minors that's the thing we *really* want to punish.

Of course, when they passed those laws, they didn't figure on teenagers with cell phones, and there's now at least some effort to roll these laws back a little since no one really meant to make 15 year olds felons (and add them to the sex offenders lists) for taking naughty pictures of themselves.

2ATom
05-02-2009, 5:28 PM
Question? Do you want felons shooting next to you? Obviously they make bad choices and hopefully one of their bad choices won't happen while they are shooting weapons illegally.

The difference between people exercising their rights as an American and those that violate the laws for other reasons is great. Stealing sheet metal for instance and receiving a felony that couldn't be plead down to a misdemeanor, should not be in possesion of a firearm. Next time he will use the firearm while commiting a theft. Slippery slope? maybe but there is a big difference between a thief and someone that is trying to follow the law and makes a mistake. More than likely, the one trying to follow the law that misinterpreted it will not plead guilty to a felony.

SteveH
05-02-2009, 7:05 PM
Well, anything that is victimless shouldn't be a felony.

The CA AW ban is one very obvious example: violate it and you're a felon.

Can you show me one case of someone being convicted of a felony for violating the cali AW ban who was not commiting other non-gun felonies at the same time? Cause every case I'm familiar with has been plead down to a misdemanor or handled as a civil infraction by surrendoring the rifle.

I stand by my statement. Its damn hard to get convicted of a felony in california.

HondaMasterTech
05-02-2009, 7:22 PM
If the individual is restricted from handguns and you give it to him to borrow, will YOU get in trouble? Id be more concerned about that.

cousinkix1953
05-02-2009, 11:20 PM
Felons shooting guns is a big no-no. And the Feds take it VERY seriously. The penalties are severe, and since it's fed time, there's no time off for good behavior. One of the indoor ranges I go to has at least three of their rental guns out right now to the sheriff's department as evidence in such cases. People come in, rent a gun, and often don't even realize that some long-ago conviction still makes them illegal. Very, very bad consequences. Unless your friend has gone through the process of having his rights officially restored, he shouldn't be anywhere near a firearm unless he wants to spend a good portion of the rest of his life in a federal pen.
I tipped off the owner of a range about a convicted felon shooting on their premisis. He might still be going there if I hadn't done it. Nobody really wants one of those Aryian Nations idiots with neo-Nazi tattoos shooting their guns...

snellav
05-03-2009, 12:28 AM
If you aren't sure, or there's some gray area, it probably isn't worth the risk.

I agree that some felons who have served their time and have stayed out of trouble are no threat shooting at the range. But allowing that can of worms to open would probably allow people to legally posses who shouldn't.

When it comes to felony drug convictions, I certainly don't want a felony convicted druggie shooting next to me. You don't get a felony drug conviction for a gram of weed. The drug world involve lots of illegal firearm use and I think anyone who has chosen to be a part of that shouldn't have the right to shoot or possess a gun.

Seesm
05-03-2009, 12:46 AM
I have a felon friend who asks me to go shooting all the time... BUT I am alwasy too busy when he calls... I want to steer clear of that stuff.

socal2310
05-03-2009, 6:17 AM
There are two closely related questions being addressed in this thread:

May a person with a record of a felony conviction shoot a gun (those who have had their rights restored now have misdemeanor convictions)?

No. Period. It doesn't matter what we think of the law; if we break it, we can be charged with a crime whether the law is just or not.

Should a person with a felony conviction be forever denied the right to own a firearm?

That depends on the felony. In English common law, a felon used to be someone who was convicted of a crime so heinous that he forfeited all assets (including hereditary titles and land) to the crown and was executed.

We have now expanded the definition of felony to an absurd degree.

I would like a common sense litmus test for assigning someone to the felony category: Would you have been hung for the crime 150 years ago within a state (frontier justice tended to be a bit harsh)? If yes, felony; if no, misdemeanor.

I will concede that you generally have to work pretty hard to get a felony conviction in California in the municipal courts. It's a whole other ball game in Federal court. Just uttering an untruth in front of an FBI agent can get you slapped with Obstruction of Justice or Lying to a federal investigator (both felonies).

Ryan

Stormfeather
05-03-2009, 7:07 AM
If hes holding or touching that gun, then thats a felon in possession.

So, in answer to your question. . . No, hell no, oh hell no.

ZRX61
05-03-2009, 7:38 AM
If hes holding or touching that gun, then thats a felon in possession.

So, in answer to your question. . . No, hell no, oh hell no.

Therefore the answer to the original question is:
"Yes, but only in the comission of a crime" ;)

p7m8jg
05-03-2009, 8:28 AM
I guess I can tag onto this question. I have a good friend that stole some sheet metal from the company he worked for. He got a big F for that but I'm hearing that it is gone off his record now as he has payed the company back for what he took. I don't want to put myself or him in a position of getting in trouble so how do I verify someone is no longer a felon.

If he was truly convicted of a felony then he stays a convicted felon up to and until he gets a full and complete pardon from either the Governator or the President of the United States. He can't go recreational shooting without violating the law. Even some misdemeanor crimes have a ten year restriction, as opposed to the felony lifetime ban.

Getting the conviction "expunged" or reduced to a misdemeanor under Penal Code Section 1203.4 doesn't change it.

He can defend himself with a firearm in a life or death situation, but that's about it.

laguns
05-03-2009, 10:37 AM
In English common law, a felon used to be someone who was convicted of a crime so heinous that he forfeited all assets (including hereditary titles and land) to the crown and was executed.

We have now expanded the definition of felony to an absurd degree.

Ryan

Good point Ryan.

A customer some years back got in to a scuffle with a co-worker and obviously didn't have good legal council because he got convicted of a felony and had to sell me all his guns. It wasn't a wobbler so he is banned for life from possessing a firearm. (that includes black powder guns BTW guys)

Another client didn't realize he had to register his Colt Sporter and while at the range some busy body asked him if he registered it, to which he responded with "what do you mean?" Minutes later LAPD was hauling him away. He had the best attorneys so he didn't have to do time, but he got nailed with transporting an AR which is not a wobbler so he will never be able to possess a gun either. I sold his collection as well.

I could go on all day with stories like the ones above.

I just don't see our founding fathers wanting us to loose our rights over the kind of crimes that are felonies today. There is no crime in the US that will take away your first amendment right but people are loosing their second amendment rights by the millions every year. Gun owners are especially susceptible to this.

Now that the Supreme Court has basically ruled that 2nd amendment is an individual right, what we need is a convicted felon to sue for his gun rights back based on his or her 2A rights.

"Right people" are you listening?

Ted

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

ilbob
05-03-2009, 10:43 AM
He made a mistake, served his time and paid the company he stole from back. Do you really want to take someone's rights for LIFE for one stupid act?

It was probably not a mistake. I would bet he deliberately stole from the company.

He knew the consequences of stealing. And if it was a felony, we are not talking about a small amount of sheet metal.

Why is it we try to down play criminal activity? Part of the reason for punishment is to discourage other people from committing crimes.

GaryV
05-03-2009, 1:29 PM
ok let me adjust the question a little. I am a legal gun owner and am taking a trip up to NV to shoot with some friends and family. Every gun is doj California compliant and I know by myself I shouldn't have any issues. Well I have MS and sometimes get dizzy and cant drive. My friend is with me and offers to drive while I'm having a dizzy spell. He is a convicted felon and doesn't plan on shooting but wanted to go see the mutual friends. When he is driving my car for me with guns in the back is he in trouble?

Here's a real case, rather than a hypothetical. A woman is married to a convicted felon. She has a gun for her own self-protection. Keeps it in a locked safe when not carrying. Husband knows the combination to the safe (used the same safe to store documents) = felon in possession. So, given that I know how this case played out, I'd say your friend would be looking at a nasty federal conviction if he got pulled over and the officer found out that guns were in the car and not under your immediate control.

Super Spy
05-04-2009, 10:49 AM
Thanks for ALL the comments.

The guy in question did something bad long ago. He's been squeeky clean for years. Got his degree and managed to get a good job with a large well known company. He paid his debt to society and I think he deserves a clean slate. Regardless we will all follow the law, not matter how we feel. I think he desrves a clean slate. I doubt the governator will pardon him though.

His other half will probably go shooting with me, and he won't.

Most of the people I know are law abiding citizens. I know a couple that have in the past had legal trouble. I don't associate with anyone currently up to no good. Some people probably do deserve a second chance. The big question is "Did you learn form your mistake?" If you have paid your debt to society. If it has been years since you've done anything really stupid (or illegal) I think you deserve another chance.

This ought to get a few comments.....

Geo
05-04-2009, 11:00 AM
and I think he deserves a clean slate.

Put me in the "no clean slate" column. Thieves should lose a hand.

Glock22Fan
05-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Put me in the "no clean slate" column. Thieves should lose a hand.

Have you really never brought anything, such as a pen, home from work?

Gosh, you people who can only think in black and white amaze me.

CCWFacts
05-04-2009, 12:22 PM
I voted "yes", but...


Certain felonies, especially violent felonies or felonies that show reckless disregard for human life, should be lifetime disqualifiers.
Regaining rights shouldn't be automatic; there should be a process of review to let a judge weigh the situation and make a decision


Another client didn't realize he had to register his Colt Sporter and while at the range some busy body asked him if he registered it, to which he responded with "what do you mean?" Minutes later LAPD was hauling him away. He had the best attorneys so he didn't have to do time, but he got nailed with transporting an AR which is not a wobbler so he will never be able to possess a gun either. I sold his collection as well.

That just sucks. Any one of us could have fallen into that; that law was specifically designed to turn people into unknowing felons.

I just don't see our founding fathers wanting us to loose our rights over the kind of crimes that are felonies today. There is no crime in the US that will take away your first amendment right but people are loosing their second amendment rights by the millions every year. Gun owners are especially susceptible to this.

Exactly. The founding fathers would be flabbergasted by the enormity of our prison system, the number of people who get felonies for things like having the wrong stamp on their gun ("Colt Sportster" instead of some OLL receiver), the wrong part in the gun, shouting at a flight attendant, or a million other things today.

Sometimes it seems like some of our "total government control of everyone" leaders want to get as many people as possible under the supervision of the justice system, so they can be disarmed, monitored, and can't vote. You can see it very clearly in the number of people who get felonies without any prison sentences. The conviction doesn't come with any punishment (prison) per se; the purpose of the sentence is to strip the person of his civil rights for life. You gotta ask, what's the motivation for doing that? I can come up with some answers, none of which make me happy.

I have a friend-of-a-friend who got a federal felony (no prison time) for being a sysadmin at a company that did online gambling. He was working in a country where that was legal. He wasn't at all involved in the gambling side of it, he did not profit from it beyond earning a salary. When he came back to the US, he got that federal felony, and has lost his gun rights, voting rights, and travel rights for life. This guy is the most mild, non-dangerous person I know.

That's why I can't stomach the idea that all felonies should result in a life sentence of loss of rights and loss of freedom. The whole "felony conviction with no prison time" thing is for the sole purpose of stripping people of their civil rights, people who have not done anything that compels punishment (prison). That doesn't seem right in many cases.

People who commit violent crimes or other actions which show psychopathy are in a different category, and should be stripped of their rights forever, but lumping in someone who failed to register his Colt Sportster with those people is just wrong.

RideIcon
05-04-2009, 12:30 PM
my 19 year old sister has a felony because my 17 year old drug addict sister said she threatened to hurt her baby.
felonys happen, sometimes all it takes is a drug addicted relative...

Geo
05-04-2009, 3:17 PM
Have you really never brought anything, such as a pen, home from work?

Nope. I think about the consequences of my actions.

M. Sage
05-04-2009, 3:49 PM
Nope. I think about the consequences of my actions.

You've never forgotten a pen in your pocket... Riiight.

Glock22Fan
05-04-2009, 3:51 PM
Nope. I think about the consequences of my actions.

If you've never brought stationery home from work, never made a personal phone call on a company phone, never written a note to yourself on company paper, never used company time to check on CalGuns, never used the company photocopier, never snuck off for an extra coffee or smoke break, never said you're sick so you could go fishing or anything whatsoever like that, then I think that there are three possibilities:

1) You have never worked more than a couple of days in your life.
2) You have a poor or selective memory
3) You are inhuman.

Geo
05-04-2009, 3:57 PM
4) I own the company and I am the boss.

Glock22Fan
05-04-2009, 4:04 PM
4) I own the company and I am the boss.


And have done since you left school/college, I guess.

My point really is not so much that YOU are perfect (or not), but that's a standard of perfection that very, very few of us could reach I imagine.

And even owning your own company doesn't give you the right to take company supplies unless you also declare them to the tax authorities (unless your business is not incorporated and is so small you only send in one return for you and it).

nicki
05-04-2009, 4:04 PM
Felony penalties should be reserved for serious real crimes.

For example, in California, petty theft is a misdemeanor for the first offense, a felony for the second offense.

In some states, writing a bad check can become a Felony.

Many people do stupid things when they are 18 thru 25. Let's say you did a stupid college prank and got caught, you paid for the damage, served time etc, should you be paying for you dumb mistakes when you are in your 40's?

People who are convicted for felonies should get appropriate penalties for their crimes including the DEATH PENALTY.

The penalty for crimes needs to fit the crimes. Although I consider myself a non violent person, I remember seeing a news report back around 1980-81 where a guy was being sentenced to 8 years and it was the max the judge could give the guy.

The defendant had raped a 15 year old girl, cut off both her arms at the elbows and left her to die. She survived.

My blood boiled, all I felt was rage, I honestly could kill that defendant and do so with no remorse. The defendant was released, but died a few months later.

That being said, we need to revise the whole criminal justice system because it is broken.

I do believe that once a person has served their time, and they are off parole, that they should have a process to restore all their rights.

Rights should not be restored to those who are a danger to society, for instance, child molestors.

The Felony issue is a big one in the Afro American community. One in four Black males has a felony conviction.

Right now what we have created is a "sub class" that once in it, we have limited means for people to get out of it.

Sure, people have done bad things to me in my life and I will probably never forget, but I do choose to forgive, not because I want people to get over on me, but I do so, so that I can move on with my life and free myself from a cycle of seeking revenge.

Having a person lose their rights for life after they have served their time for the crime they have done is not compassionate and IMHO actually counter productive.

I know many of you on the board are "Law and Order" types. My concern is not "Law and Order", but the creation of a "Authoritarian State".

Nicki

Geo
05-04-2009, 4:08 PM
My point really is not so much that YOU are perfect (or not), but that's a standard of perfection that very, very few of us could reach I imagine.

I understand your point, but can't you come up with a more applicable "what if" than stealing office supplies, which does not rise to the level of a felony.

How about have I ever smacked around the old lady or the kid?

How about have I ever drove drunk?

How about have I ever slung a little bit of meth?

Etc...

No, I have never committed ANY felonies BECAUSE I THOUGHT BEFORE I ACTED.

Legasat
05-04-2009, 4:10 PM
I voted Yes, but really, it depends on the crime.

Like getting busted with 1.5 pounds of pot vs. a violent crime.

They are both felonies, but very different felonies.

zangetsu
08-07-2009, 1:26 PM
i think my lil bro has a misdemeanor (got caught stealing something from walmart). can he fire a gun at the range? he said he wasn't allowed to own one.

Meplat
08-07-2009, 2:59 PM
Not all felonies are violent or otherwise sketchy in nature. Some are for white collar crime and sometimes felonies are given out to people who, IMHO, didn't really deserve them or are otherwise being used as legal examples.

Turby

Yep. I have a friend who was browbeaten into pleading guilty to something he was not guilty of. He ran out of money after selling his business and hocking his house. His (slimy) lawyer told him to cop a plea and be happy to only serve a year in the county jail because it would cost another $30,000 to$40,000 to keep fighting and he didn't have it. I and a couple of his brothers in law now own all his guns. It's a damn heart breaker not to have him at the range with us anymore.

madmike
08-07-2009, 3:10 PM
Well, anything that is victimless shouldn't be a felony.

The CA AW ban is one very obvious example: violate it and you're a felon. No way should this stuff even be illegal, let alone a felony. 99% or more of CA's weapons code, in fact.

"Sexting". If a 15 year old sends a naughty picture to another 15 year old, it is not child pornography!

NFA laws.

Think on it for a bit. If you read about a criminal sent up for a felony, think "now who is the victim in this case?" If you can't name one, it shouldn't be a felony, and probably shouldn't be illegal. If it falls under this category (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) and not into this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se), it should by no means be a felony.

You hit the nail on its head right there. If you victimize others, you should be punished severely. If you do something stupid, that doesn't hurt anyone, you should be firmly scolded, and called a bad, bad boy(or girl).

-madmike.

Meplat
08-07-2009, 3:16 PM
It is not uncommon in most states to use "diversion" programs for first time offenders for non-violent crimes including crimes that are felonies. This usually consists of a period of probation and perhaps some type of restitution (IE. paying back the person you robbed, paying court costs, paying fines...). If you complete the probation and all of the other requirements the conviction is removed from your record. But until that happens you have a felony record and once it has happened you are a former felon who has had your rights restored.

One other thing to note that no one has pointed out. If you know or have a reason to believe someone is a prohibited person and you hand them a gun (even one that is not loaded or even a single bullet) then you have committed a crime. So make sure you know what is going on with your friend before you loan him a gun at the range.

Sounds like you should avoid knowing to me!





One other thing to note. In many states non-cartridge guns (IE. ball and cap revolvers and muzzle loading rifles) are not considered firearms and can be legally owned and used by those with felony records.

Is CA one of those states?

Booshanky
08-07-2009, 3:25 PM
Really, a criminal conviction, even a felony will "drop off your record" if you pay the victim back. I doubt it, but again, this is California. :mad:

What amazes me is how many on this board report they have friends with criminal convictions and they want to pal around with and go shooting.

The fact that someone is a felon does not necessarily mean they're a bad person, it means they made a mistake a some point in their life.

Nose Nuggets
08-07-2009, 3:44 PM
LOL!!!

This 'felons are always bad people,' and 'you are judged by the company you keep' trife is Fing HILARIOUS. Its also disturbing, sad, and a little bit scary that people will make such blind judgments about someone they have never met. worst yet, its based soley on the fact that they bear a label given to them by the very same government they despise for certain gun laws. amazing.

Nose Nuggets
08-07-2009, 3:45 PM
The fact that someone is a felon does not necessarily mean they're a bad person, it means they made a mistake a some point in their life.

Hell, it dosn't even mean THAT 100% of the time. Some people get convicted of a felony for doing something that i think is perfectly normal, healthy, and victimless.

pnkssbtz
08-07-2009, 4:11 PM
You know, for a bunch of guys that rely on a couple of ounces of metal to separate them from a felony firearms offense, some of you have some pretty absolute views about felons.
Is that kind of like being a little bit pregnant?

Legal vs. Not Legal is a boolean statement.

sd1023x
08-07-2009, 5:38 PM
Another client didn't realize he had to register his Colt Sporter and while at the range some busy body asked him if he registered it, to which he responded with "what do you mean?" Minutes later LAPD was hauling him away. He had the best attorneys so he didn't have to do time, but he got nailed with transporting an AR which is not a wobbler so he will never be able to possess a gun either. I sold his collection as well.



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349



:eek: My Momma always told me "Never be a snitch"

Outlaw Josey Wales
08-07-2009, 8:15 PM
. My concern is not "Law and Order", but the creation of a "Authoritarian State".

Nicki

The State Vs. The People
by Claire Wolfe and Aaron Zelman

The increase in government power is like a political arms buildup against the citizenry -- a vast expansion of the pretexts that the governing class has to attack the governed. A massive military buildup by one government can often subdue its foreign enemies without a fight. Similarly, contemporary statute books convey sufficient punitive power that citizens surrender without a fight in most potential conflicts with the government.

Americans should heed Wolfe and Zelman when they urge people to practice "living resistance" -- which means "committing your life to making sure that you never, through choice or inertia, help lay the bricks that build the police state."

People must summon the will and resolution to drive politicians out of their own lives. What is needed now is the same passion and outrage over political and bureaucratic aggrandizement that existed towards chattel slavery 140 years ago. We must recognize that possession of government office does not confer ownership rights over human beings....

If contemporary Americans can cease idolizing the State, a rebirth of the spirit of freedom will begin and the threat of America becoming a Police State will become far less foreboding.

-- From the Introduction by James Bovard

Ron-Solo
08-07-2009, 8:23 PM
If the individual is restricted from handguns and you give it to him to borrow, will YOU get in trouble? Id be more concerned about that.

Possibly. If you KNEW prior to furnishing the handgun, you could possibly be charged with being an accessory.

Bad karma.

And like other posts have said, you've got to try real hard to get a felony conviction, and you've usually had multiple prior misdemeanors that were serious.

MiguelS
08-07-2009, 8:28 PM
Usually when you go to the range and you never shot before they ask you a few questions.

Are you suicidal?
Domestic Violence?
Felon? DING! Sorry.

ldivinag
08-08-2009, 1:53 AM
only place this will work is if felon HAS to use a firearm for self defense...