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soloo
04-30-2009, 10:09 PM
Hello to all

Could anyone tell if it is legal to clean my gun in my apartment's balcony? Balcony is the best place for me to do my gunwork since it has plenty of light and good air flow.

The problem is my neighbor is able to peek what I am doing if I do my gunwork in the balcony. That makes me a little uncomfortable.

Will I get any kind of problem by showing my firearm in the balcony when I do the cleaning and lubrication?

nick
04-30-2009, 10:12 PM
There's no law against it, as far as I know. Is there anything about firearms in your HOA charter or lease agreement?

I clean my rifles on the balcony, it overlooks the street (don't have a better place), and I don't see a problem there. My girlfriend and I have breakfasts there, too. Hope that's not illegal :)

Sinixstar
04-30-2009, 10:17 PM
I do the same thing from time to time for the same reason.
Typically what I do just to avoid an issue - is if i'm cleaning a rifle - i just break it down. Take the stock off. In the case of my .22 (no hold open at all) it's just easier to do that way.
The .270 doesn't see a whole heck of a lot of action, and doesn't require the same level of cleaning the .22 gets.
The .45 gets pretty gunky - but I just break it down in-doors and just take one piece at a time out to spray down or mop with solvent.

Basically - when i'm out there, if you didn't know guns fairly well - i'd just look like a kook with a piece of metal in his hand. Not very easily identifiable as a gun. Whether it's an issue or not - I dunno. I just choose to try and not make it an issue. I don't necessarily want the whole neighborhood knowing I keep guns in the house anyways.

oaklander
04-30-2009, 10:20 PM
It's not illegal. But that doesn't mean that someone couldn't call it in to your local police. This would result in headaches.

Hello to all

Could anyone tell if it is legal to clean my gun in my apartment's balcony? Balcony is the best place for me to do my gunwork since it has plenty of light and good air flow.

The problem is my neighbor is able to peek what I am doing if I do my gunwork in the balcony. That makes me a little uncomfortable.

Will I get any kind of problem by showing my firearm in the balcony when I do the cleaning and lubrication?

Saigon1965
04-30-2009, 10:22 PM
Unless no one can see you - I wouldn't do it there -

spddrcr
04-30-2009, 10:28 PM
while it is your right to clean a firearm on your balcony if you wish to do so, think of it this way. whats cheaper a small fan and a clip lamp to use in your apartment or some trumped up charge due to a nosey neighbor that could potentially ruin you financially?

not saying it would happen, but things crazier than that have and will continue to happen in CA:eek:

Dark&Good
04-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Exercise your rights, be willing to deal sensibly with some annoying consequences.
It is legal, too.

cassius
04-30-2009, 11:08 PM
all it will take is one ninny to freak out and call 911 for you to get hassled, legal or not. And if the officers are *****s you might wind up with some bogus 'disturbing the peace' charge.

Consider a temporary drape or screen of some sort to screen out your neighbor. And if your balcony has a solid wall, consider sitting on the floor to do your cleaning. Or sit normally, but with your back to the public, so someone might be less inclined to erroneously report a sniper.

Riodog
04-30-2009, 11:22 PM
Hello to all

Could anyone tell if it is legal to clean my gun in my apartment's balcony? Balcony is the best place for me to do my gunwork since it has plenty of light and good air flow.

The problem is my neighbor is able to peek what I am doing if I do my gunwork in the balcony. That makes me a little uncomfortable.

Will I get any kind of problem by showing my firearm in the balcony when I do the cleaning and lubrication?

KES, LEE, ROCKET, IVAN, and the rest of the mods-> help me out here.
This is just another example of "the dumbest posts I've ever read". Please put a stop to this as I'll be banned every other day if this continues. FIRST post and he comes out of the gate stupid.

Soloo, you can clean your gun on the second floor of the capitol and lubricate your 'whatever' in the middle of the freeway. Just make sure the weapon is unloaded.,
Rio
(prolly get banned for this one).

Dark&Good
04-30-2009, 11:25 PM
(prolly get banned for this one).

Let's hope so.

:D j/k

Seesm
04-30-2009, 11:28 PM
I say do not do it... It is NOt about the legality of it all, it is about the hassle factor... Think of it this way... People see guns they get un-easy and now they know you have guns. They may come back to rip you off later when your not home cleaning them. Just the idea a neighbor who does not like guns calling and you having to deal with the pain is just not worth it. Do it private in your apartment. Easy on a towel with a fan pushing the smell out.... Easy and smart.

Tillers_Rule
04-30-2009, 11:28 PM
Be careful when you do that. I know a couple people have mentioned there's no law against it, but there actually sort of is. Unfortunately I can't find it at this moment. But it stems back to a man who used to open his curtains so his neighbor could see him clean his guns. I guess he would do this to intimidate the neighbor and he was arrested and charged.

Anyway, if it weren't so late I would spend more time looking for the story.

bellson
04-30-2009, 11:34 PM
KES, LEE, ROCKET, IVAN, and the rest of the mods-> help me out here.
This is just another example of "the dumbest posts I've ever read". Please put a stop to this as I'll be banned every other day if this continues. FIRST post and he comes out of the gate stupid.

Soloo, you can clean your gun on the second floor of the capitol and lubricate your 'whatever' in the middle of the freeway. Just make sure the weapon is unloaded.,
Rio
(prolly get banned for this one).

Hi Riodog,

Have a nice glass of wine....It may help lower your blood pressure. The original post is fair and prudent, and while we may already know the law and consider it to be "dumb", we should remember that those who honestly seek knowledge and knowledgeable advise are not "dumb"; they seek our enlightenment. Share your knowledge and wisdom....

Straight answer: It's legal. Be careful even so; people are people, and any knothead can dial 911.

bellson
04-30-2009, 11:37 PM
Be careful when you do that. I know a couple people have mentioned there's no law against it, but there actually sort of is. Unfortunately I can't find it at this moment. But it stems back to a man who used to open his curtains so his neighbor could see him clean his guns. I guess he would do this to intimidate the neighbor and he was arrested and charged.

Anyway, if it weren't so late I would spend more time looking for the story.

Hi Tiller,

You are right, I remember that one. But it was more than just opening the curtain, the guy charged also intentionally aimed the weapons at the neighbor, and made other verbal threats. I mention this with the thought that we should all remember that we have this right, but we must also be responsible with the exercise of our rights.

Trench Broom
05-01-2009, 1:42 AM
I always clean my stuff indoors - I don't need the neighbors freaking out! :eek: I just open the door and turn on a fan.

HeyZeus
05-01-2009, 4:12 AM
Man up and tell your wife or girlfriend to get used to the smell. I assume she is the one complianing that makes you go to the balcony. I would not show the world you have guns. Some neighbors can and will cause problems.

rod
05-01-2009, 4:20 AM
I clean my guns indoors. I have a whole room dedicated to gun storage / maintenance. The Hopps #9 makes for a great air freshener. I wish someone would make cologne that smelled like Hopps #9.

Grimjack
05-01-2009, 5:18 AM
Its not illegal, but from an opsec point of view do you really want all the neighbors to know you own guns? I'd buy a folding table from costco, open the slider for the balcony and set the table up just inside the door. Clean all day with fresh air and sunshine with no nosy neighbors looking around

EastBayRidge
05-01-2009, 5:37 AM
+1 on "opsec" - I don't want people knowing there are firearms in my apartment - people talk and I don't need a break-in.

nick
05-01-2009, 5:46 AM
Out of curiosity, how many people posting here actually buy guns these days, or go to the range? When you bring a new gun home, or go to/from the range, do you just try to sneak past your neighbours and hope they won't notice? Or do you wrap your range bag and rifles in bvlankets until they're completely unidentifiable as anything firearms-related? I suppose you never wear anything gun-related, either, right? No NRA or any other stickers, either? I always wondered who buys that stuff, anyway. I also suppose you take all the trash this hobby generates, from cardboard rifle boxes to used patches to empty solvent and oil bottles to the desert and dig them in there?

If you live in an apartment building, chances are your neighbours know that you're a gun owner. Most ignore it, some haven't noticed any of the signs, but chances are that at least some of them know it, and apartment buildings, especially larger ones, are full of people sharing rumors. I'm sure it's possible to hide it from your neighbours, but at the cost of constantly looking over your shoulder. Is it really worth that? Otherwise they probably know about your hobby anyway.

nick
05-01-2009, 5:46 AM
It's different if you live in a house, of course, unless you have some really curious neighbours.

cineski
05-01-2009, 5:48 AM
Just get yourself a pyrex brownie dish, the larger one, break the gun down in your kitchen, put it in the pyrex dish, and then take it onto your balcony for the dirty work. Once your done with that and it dries, take it back in for the lube job and reassembly. Just don't accidentally cook with the brownie dish.

Cromwell
05-01-2009, 6:23 AM
I live in Ventura. Just a about a year ago I called VPD to ask them a question "can I clean my guns with my garage door open, because of the fumes the solvents put out." I clean about 10 guns a week. She got the LT on the phone and he told me that its perfectly legal to have your garage open and have your guns out. to do what ever you need to do. Clean them, pack them for a range, or what ever "as long as its on your property" He did however say that if a neighbor gets scarred or something and they call the VPD they have to send out a officer to check it out. I then asked him if doing so would be "brandishing" He again so that is in no way brandishing. He suggested that I hang a sheet or tarp to kind of cover up the main opening as to prevent full view from neighbors. I lilve in a residential neiborhood and all my neighbors know that I have guns. Its kind of hard to hide that fact since I shoot every weekend and load my guns into my truck to go shooting. I have had conversations with them about my sport shooting and some neighbors shoot as well or have a gun in the home. Its good to chat with your neighbors a bit, at least the ones right around your home so they wont be alarmed if you handle your guns in your garage or load them into your car or what ever. So thats my advice to avoid people randomly calling the police on you for working on your guns in view of the public. Even though its legal.

cousinkix1953
05-01-2009, 6:46 AM
It's not illegal. But that doesn't mean that someone couldn't call it in to your local police. This would result in headaches.
Unfortunately true. The LEOs can't take the chance not to check it out; but it's a waste of their time if nothing is really wrong...

AEC1
05-01-2009, 7:39 AM
I clean and work on all my firearms in my garage with my door open, usually most of my neighbors are with me as we all go to the range together.

jamespres2001
05-01-2009, 7:40 AM
Always hide my guns in a 'gym' bag, try to steath it out to the tahoe, my long guns are hard to hide, try to do it early with the tahoe backed up to the garage. Some of my neighbors know I have guns in the house, I guess they assume I never shoot them. I have a funny feeling if SHTF they will be at my door step.

eflatminor
05-01-2009, 8:22 AM
Only in California would someone even think that cleaning a firearm on your own balcony might be a problem. I am continually amazed at the level of "meddling" Californians are willing to accept and equally amazed at the *****-footing that goes on...god forbid someone might be offended. There's a constitutional right to not be offended, right?

Seriously, I'm a Californian now too, but if you didn't grow up here, you'd realize how silly it sounds to worry about such things.

I take no steps to "hide" the fact that I'm legally armed. I don't care if my neighbors know if I shoot regularly because I'm perfectly within my rights to do so. I follow the letter of all of these insane laws in this state. In fact, I'd welcome a challange from a neighbor. What are you afraid of?

rabagley
05-01-2009, 8:27 AM
I have two neighbors who are complete and total nut-jobs who work very hard to take offense at everything that anyone else in the complex does. The worst has had two TRO's against her and is gunning for a third. If she were ever to find out I own a gun, she is about 99% to call the cops that I'm brandishing or some similar nonsense, and I would really rather not deal with that.

Family knows that I have guns.
Friends who are interested in guns know that I have guns.

My neighbors will not know that I have guns unless there is some circumstance in which I have to use a gun.

rabagley
05-01-2009, 8:30 AM
I follow the letter of all of these insane laws in this state. In fact, I'd welcome a challange from a neighbor. What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of having to pay $5000 in legal fees and wait for years to recover my gun collection after having it seized by the police. As that is what will happen if a neighbor makes up a story about you and gets a TRO against you (and I happen to have exactly such a neighbor).

ColetheGun
05-01-2009, 8:36 AM
i wish i had a blacony to clean my gun, but i have privacy instead :(

ChuckBooty
05-01-2009, 8:44 AM
I clean all of my guns on my workbench in the garage. The wife doesn't like all the chems in the house and the small parts become a hazard as I have four little kids who like things in their mouth.

I also like to do this so that the neighborhood KNOWS that I have firearms...that may not be the most sensible thing in the world...but I like for the neighborhood 'hoods' to know that mine is NOT the house to mess with. Not that I live in a bad neighborhood...but we have some homies that like to walk the streets sometimes. Mostly high-school wannabe's.

beerup949
05-01-2009, 9:27 AM
I feel the same way when I'm in my yard when I clean my weapons. The fence is quite low and I'm always worried that my neighbors will freak out. It's really sad but true.

Curtis
05-01-2009, 9:34 AM
I set up at the kitchen table and listen to a pod cast or turn on the new.

I typically don't let people know I have guns unless I know them. I do go out of my way to hide my gun safe from people.

ripcurlksm
05-01-2009, 9:40 AM
my apartment has a balcony on the bottom floor, and it is in the back of the complex, where there is a random person walking by to walk their dog or something. To keep the house clean, I am in the process of setting up a few hooks on the top beam in the balcony to drape a tarp to block the view while I clean.

Why dont you so something similar if you are concerned? Only takes a minute and gives you added privacy.

eflatminor
05-01-2009, 9:50 AM
I'm afraid of having to pay $5000 in legal fees and wait for years to recover my gun collection after having it seized by the police. As that is what will happen if a neighbor makes up a story about you and gets a TRO against you (and I happen to have exactly such a neighbor).

Then by all means, COWER.

Strap on a pair and remember that if your neighbor really were to do such a thing, you'd be in a position to make much more than five grand in the subsequent lawsuit. People can not make ****e up, infringe on your rights, and not suffer consequences. The police too would be subject to suit if they hurt you without reasonable proof there was grounds to do so.

My god people, this is still SUPPOSED to be America.

Tillers_Rule
05-01-2009, 9:51 AM
When I clean I always open the windows, close the blinds that face the street and turn a couple fans on to get a nice cross breeze going on.

Maltese Falcon
05-01-2009, 9:55 AM
I try really hard to keep my ownership of firearms unbeknownst to the Apt. neighbors. It's just common sense and I don't really want to deal with LE over someone's over-reaction.

...now if I can just get the USPS to not throw the Midway catalog (with a Barrett 50) or American Rifleman face up on my door mat...sigh.

rabagley
05-01-2009, 9:57 AM
Then by all means, COWER.

Awfully quick to judge today, are we? Settle back and let the adults talk. You might learn something.

Strap on a pair and remember that if your neighbor really were to do such a thing, you'd be in a position to make much more than five grand in the subsequent lawsuit. People can not make ****e up, infringe on your rights, and not suffer consequences.

Demonstrably false. Multiple cases of exactly this have happened and there has been no successful recourse. And because of the low likelihood of success, you will have to pay all of your legal expenses out of pocket in the hope that a lottery-odds judgment will come your way.

The police too would be subject to suit if they hurt you without reasonable proof there was grounds to do so.

My god people, this is still SUPPOSED to be America.

You think that keeping your guns safely locked away indefinitely counts as "hurt" by our legal system? You're stupider than you sound.

Ignored.

Dark&Good
05-01-2009, 9:59 AM
This is related to the original question on another level:
Terror: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terror
Terrorize: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorize

So.
Are we afraid yet? To go about our legal business in our homes?

War on terror... my @*s*

.22guy
05-01-2009, 10:00 AM
KES, LEE, ROCKET, IVAN, and the rest of the mods-> help me out here.
This is just another example of "the dumbest posts I've ever read". Please put a stop to this as I'll be banned every other day if this continues. FIRST post and he comes out of the gate stupid.

Soloo, you can clean your gun on the second floor of the capitol and lubricate your 'whatever' in the middle of the freeway. Just make sure the weapon is unloaded.,
Rio
(prolly get banned for this one).

Wow, way to represent Calguns and gun-owners in general. :rolleyes: You need to remember we were all newbies once.....

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 10:00 AM
Hi Tiller,

You are right, I remember that one. But it was more than just opening the curtain, the guy charged also intentionally aimed the weapons at the neighbor, and made other verbal threats. I mention this with the thought that we should all remember that we have this right, but we must also be responsible with the exercise of our rights.

I believe it is the displaying a firearm with intent or in a threatening manner code - no time to look it up right now.

so regretfully if your neighbor feels that you are doing it to threaten or harass him, he can probably get you arrested. It is like sexual harassment - if the person feels like you were harassing them, then you harassed, the would the average person find it harassment won't come into play probably until the trial?

Not a lawyer - but maybe some of them can clarify?

RandyD
05-01-2009, 10:51 AM
I know of no law that prevents us from cleaning a firearm in public view. If we are allowed to open carry a firearm, then I don't see how cleaning one in public view is illegal. Brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner could be an illegal act, with the exception of self defense. The problem is that many Californian's are not involved in hobbies involving firearms and they ignorant of the legalities of owning and possessing a firearm, and the sight of a firearm makes them anxious, so their typical reaction is to call the police to report a possible crime, and the police are not going to ignore such a call and they will investigate. When they contact the person who is reported to have a firearm, they will be on a heightened alert status, meaning there will be several of them and they will have their handguns drawn and ready. Also, you cannot rely upon someone who is in an state of anxiety to accurately report what he saw to the police. Also lets not rule out that the person who sees the firearm may be an antigun activist looking to create a problem for a gunowner. Here is a hypothetical situation to consider; the firearm owner is cleaning his firearm, he holds a rifle up and looks through the barrel to inspect it for cleanliness and someone sees this and interpets it as an act of brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner and calls the police. Another factor to consider is the police may make a mistake and confiscate your firearms, arrest you and let the prosecutor make the determination. All of this can be avoided by exercising good judgment which is being discrete.

I have lived in my house for 11 years and I was the last person to move into our neighborhood. Over the years I have gotten to know my neighbors and I have let them know that I own firearms. In constrast if I were living in an apartment building where there is a new tenant in each apartment every six months, I would exercise more discretion and not let it be known that I own firearms.

rabagley
05-01-2009, 10:59 AM
RandyD gets it.

BigBamBoo
05-01-2009, 11:12 AM
..............

1BigPea
05-01-2009, 11:36 AM
I always clean my weapons in my garage at my work bench. I don't open the garage door because I have a nosey neighbor. I also load my range bags and rifle cases in the gagage, even if I park in the driveway that previous night i'll back the Yukon in to load it.

I only have 1 neighbor that knows I own guns and I want to keep it that way. He's cool, a gun owner and NRA member. I actually will be helping him complete his AR build when he gets around to buying the LPK.

M1A Rifleman
05-01-2009, 3:19 PM
It may be legal, but it also may be stupid in that it is asking to be harrased at worst and visited in the least by the local PD.

eflatminor
05-01-2009, 4:41 PM
Awfully quick to judge today, are we? Settle back and let the adults talk. You might learn something.



Demonstrably false. Multiple cases of exactly this have happened and there has been no successful recourse. And because of the low likelihood of success, you will have to pay all of your legal expenses out of pocket in the hope that a lottery-odds judgment will come your way.



You think that keeping your guns safely locked away indefinitely counts as "hurt" by our legal system? You're stupider than you sound.

Ignored.

You wouldn't of lasted long where I grew up. You less ignored me and more stomped away in a huff, taking your ball with you. Pathetic little "man".

nick
05-01-2009, 7:00 PM
Nick...are you facing NW and it is Saturday between 10:39 and 11:53am when your having your breakfast? Oh...and is your gf wearing anything copper colored at said time?
Yep...then it's illegal in CA. :)

Take care,Stan

Man, you're not even from SF! Or is it in CA PC? :)

I'll make sure she doesn't wear assault copper-colored clothes at breakfast, thanks!

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 7:47 PM
You wouldn't of lasted long where I grew up. You less ignored me and more stomped away in a huff, taking your ball with you. Pathetic little "man".

and this form someone whose handle is best for funeral dirges...

ah the irony...

Where I grew up anyone that knew keys got their butt kicked, unless their were also teh biggest kid.

MontClaire
05-01-2009, 8:11 PM
don't push it. do it inside and close the curtains and windows shut while you do it, then let it all open to ventilate after you put away your guns in safe.

RandyD
05-01-2009, 8:15 PM
This situation is a significant contrast to the time when I was a kid. I grew up in Arizona and my friends and I would take our bikes and .22 rifles and go shooting in the nearby desert. Afterwards we would ride back to my house and clean our .22 rifles on my parents' front porch. In California today, the liberals would have a cow seeing 12 year old boys riding around on bikes with .22 rifles strapped to the handle bars much less cleaning them on a front porch. Its too bad boys today can't enjoy what I experienced.

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 8:22 PM
This situation is a significant contrast to the time when I was a kid. I grew up in Arizona and my friends and I would take our bikes and .22 rifles and go shooting in the nearby desert. Afterwards we would ride back to my house and clean our .22 rifles on my parents' front porch. In California today, the liberals would have a cow seeing 12 year old boys riding around on bikes with .22 rifles strapped to the handle bars much less cleaning them on a front porch. Its too bad boys today can't enjoy what I experienced.


started stalking birds, cans, rocks, etc with my pellet gun at 7. Had tons of support from neighbors for eliminated the bird crap on everything. hunted ground squirrels regularly from 14 on, with the farmers/ranchers willing to pay for your ammo. Now BB guns are Firearms, and farmers and ranchers either hate you or charge you to hunt anything on their property. I am afraid the good days are far gone. Humans as a species function too much out of fear, and large groups build fear more quickly easily. With this ever increasing population density thing, I doubt we will ever see those days again, regardless of how many laws can get changed.

RandyD
05-01-2009, 8:35 PM
Docskinner, I too started off with a bb gun and around age 10 got my first .22 rifle. My grandparents had a ranch in Eastern Washington State and my .22 rifle was always with me on that ranch. My grandmother used to buy me .22 ammo so I could get rid of the birds, pidgeons and the few ground squirrels and if I was lucky a coyote. I also think that we will never experience that kind of freedom again. Remember how all the magazines for kids such as Boys Life, had adverstisements for .22 rifles in them? In present day California, a kid would get suspended from school for having a photo of a firearm.

rabagley
05-01-2009, 9:08 PM
This situation is a significant contrast to the time when I was a kid. I grew up in Arizona and my friends and I would take our bikes and .22 rifles and go shooting in the nearby desert. Afterwards we would ride back to my house and clean our .22 rifles on my parents' front porch. In California today, the liberals would have a cow seeing 12 year old boys riding around on bikes with .22 rifles strapped to the handle bars much less cleaning them on a front porch. Its too bad boys today can't enjoy what I experienced.

We have a lot of work to restore a culture where that's possible. Once we've fixed the culture and made it so that most of the people are familiar with guns and they are normal again, then we will be able to raise children as you remember being raised.

My daughter will safely handle guns before she is nine. If she expresses any interest in going out with me, we'll go hiking, shooting, and hunting together. I also do my best with otherwise liberal friends in Southern California. So far, eight liberals are now gun owners after I took them to the range and taught them how to safely shoot a gun.

bohoki
05-01-2009, 9:10 PM
just hang up a sheet or something gun cleaning stuff has fumes but you don't want anybody thinking you are a brandishing sniper up there

Maestro Pistolero
05-01-2009, 10:58 PM
I can't believe what I am reading here. I'll be damned if I'll stay inside and breath solvent so some idiot neighbor looking over my fence doesn't get their panties in a bunch. Now, I won't be pointing anything at nearby houses while checking down the barrel, either.

All this cowering, and yes, that's the right word, only serves to reinforce and validate people's irrational fear of guns. People need to start GETTING OVER IT. The longer our population goes without being exposed to, and becoming accustomed to, lawful, responsible gun owners, the longer and harder our legal and political battles are going to be. 2A ain't going away, folks, so buckle up.

The idea that we should be afraid to conduct ANY lawful, responsible behavior on our own property and in good faith, should make any red blooded American want to throw up. What I do on my own balcony, or in my own back yard is none of anyone's f@#king business. That doesn't mean I should walk through my apartment complex OC'ing a shotgun, even if it is legal, and it is. Common sense has to prevail.

A lot of what the open carry movement is about, is desensitizing the public to people's lawful behavior with firearms. Open carry may be tactical suicide from a defensive standpoint, but I respect and understand the point of it. When CA gets with the shall issue/CCW program like most of the rest of the country, then they won't have to look at the blasted thing on my hip anymore. Problem solved.

All his hand wringing, reminds me of that airline pilot in San Marcos whose 3 neighbors attempted to get a restraining order against him and his family, because somehow the fact that he was a gun owner came to their attention. The judge refused and awarded the pilot $12,000 in attorney fees.

Fear alone is not actionable information. It has to be reasonable, and rational.

Dark&Good
05-01-2009, 11:03 PM
A man.
Amen.

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 11:33 PM
Docskinner, I too started off with a bb gun and around age 10 got my first .22 rifle. My grandparents had a ranch in Eastern Washington State and my .22 rifle was always with me on that ranch. My grandmother used to buy me .22 ammo so I could get rid of the birds, pidgeons and the few ground squirrels and if I was lucky a coyote. I also think that we will never experience that kind of freedom again. Remember how all the magazines for kids such as Boys Life, had adverstisements for .22 rifles in them? In present day California, a kid would get suspended from school for having a photo of a firearm.

So funny looking at today's society - we used to ride our bikes the ~1.5 miles, or a few of us cousins walk the shorter route to by BB and pellets at the local corner gas station - we could by BBs and pellets, and chewing tobacco (for our uncle of course), but not 22s or smokes...
enter 42.54.56.11 N x 112.28.28.67 W and you can see the farm is still there.
or
http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=h&lat=42.915939&lon=-112.475516&zoom=16
the gas station was at Chubbuck and Yellowstone. My uncle hunted pheasant on that farm!

Grandparents had farmed it 50 years, the lady that owned had changed her will to give it to them, but died before she signed it. Her sons claimed it, contested the new will, and got it, and then sold it off to some wealthy schmuck who put his son and friends into the house so the could go to ISU, and they stole everything out of a building that was "agreed" storage and got away scot clean. and my grandparents and parents (et al.) were too stupid to fight at any point, and also too broke to hire anyone to fight it. You get the justice you can pay for. part of why I like this site - a little financial help can the world of a difference in so many peoples lives trying to just get back basic rights!

rabagley
05-02-2009, 12:22 AM
All this cowering, and yes, that's the right word, only serves to reinforce and validate people's irrational fear of guns. People need to start GETTING OVER IT. The longer our population goes without being exposed to, and becoming accustomed to, lawful, responsible gun owners, the longer and harder our legal and political battles are going to be. 2A ain't going away, folks, so buckle up.

You call it cowering and that's a dangerous opinion to hold on this issue. Dangerous to gun owners across the country. Not all of us have the luxury of living where you do, with the neighbors you have. I'm pretty sure that among my neighbors, about 95% voted for Obama and most of those have no idea that guns can be owned safely and responsibly. If I'm going to have the opportunity to teach them anything positive about guns, I need to be in control of the situation when they find out that I'm a gun owner and there are guns within 40 yards of where they sleep.

You call it cowering, I call it choosing my battles. This is a long fight, and we aren't going to actually change this country's attitudes towards guns by getting in everyone's face who is scared of them. Far from a successful plan, that's the best way to lose the battle for the culture and lose our rights permanently.

My two neighbors who are looking for any excuse to call the cops on me and the rest of us in the apartment complex? I'm not cowering from them. I'm making them irrelevant. My choice of tactics to achieve that goal is selective concealment. Avoiding an irrelevant and distracting conflict (which is what I get if I'm spending the next three years and $10k to get my gun collection back from the police instead of actually possessing it) is not cowardice, it's intelligence.

If you don't see the difference after that, well... I've done my part. Good luck to you, sir.

cassius
05-02-2009, 1:04 AM
Then by all means, COWER.

Strap on a pair and remember that if your neighbor really were to do such a thing, you'd be in a position to make much more than five grand in the subsequent lawsuit. People can not make ****e up, infringe on your rights, and not suffer consequences. The police too would be subject to suit if they hurt you without reasonable proof there was grounds to do so.

My god people, this is still SUPPOSED to be America.

Oh shut up. Some of us are old enough to have seen these hassles occur, read enough anecdotes, or have had such hassles occur that we choose not to present an opportunity for more intrusions of not-so-liberal fearful people wrongly dialing 911, or of abusive police and jsutice systems in liberal cities. Choosing to avoid unnecessary hassle while still exercising our rights is NOT cowardice. It's entirely rational to a situation that has no upside, in certain circumstances. Your broad-brush bluster and insult to others that choose differently is just lame.

Maestro Pistolero
05-02-2009, 1:05 AM
This is a long fight, and we aren't going to actually change this country's attitudes towards guns by getting in everyone's face who is scared of them.

I would agree with that. But there's a big difference between getting in someone's face, and them playing peekaboo on my balcony or into my backyard. Cops aren't stupid, and they know the difference between brandishing a firearm and cleaning it. They also know you are well within your rights to have a lawfully owned firearm in your house. There are also laws against peeping toms, and I wouldn't hesitate to file a complaint against some neighbor trying to use the police to harass me out of my gun rights.

If you don't see the difference after that, well... I've done my part. Good luck to you, sir.

I do see the difference, and I wish you well, also. I'm sorry you have to live among such people.

bruceflinch
05-02-2009, 7:06 AM
Just want to say Welcome, Soloo. :) As you can see we have a "diverse" group of gunowners here. Just ignore the snide comments. Yes, there is snideness in diversity.

I am lucky to have a good group of neighbors & they know where to line up in case SHTF.

RandyD
05-02-2009, 7:28 AM
I can't believe what I am reading here. I'll be damned if I'll stay inside and breath solvent so some idiot neighbor looking over my fence doesn't get their panties in a bunch. Now, I won't be pointing anything at nearby houses while checking down the barrel, either.

All this cowering, and yes, that's the right word, only serves to reinforce and validate people's irrational fear of guns. People need to start GETTING OVER IT. The longer our population goes without being exposed to, and becoming accustomed to, lawful, responsible gun owners, the longer and harder our legal and political battles are going to be. 2A ain't going away, folks, so buckle up.

The idea that we should be afraid to conduct ANY lawful, responsible behavior on our own property and in good faith, should make any red blooded American want to throw up. What I do on my own balcony, or in my own back yard is none of anyone's f@#king business. That doesn't mean I should walk through my apartment complex OC'ing a shotgun, even if it is legal, and it is. Common sense has to prevail.

A lot of what the open carry movement is about, is desensitizing the public to people's lawful behavior with firearms. Open carry may be tactical suicide from a defensive standpoint, but I respect and understand the point of it. When CA gets with the shall issue/CCW program like most of the rest of the country, then they won't have to look at the blasted thing on my hip anymore. Problem solved.

All his hand wringing, reminds me of that airline pilot in San Marcos whose 3 neighbors attempted to get a restraining order against him and his family, because somehow the fact that he was a gun owner came to their attention. The judge refused and awarded the pilot $12,000 in attorney fees.

Fear alone is not actionable information. It has to be reasonable, and rational.


In my earlier thread, I suggested using discretion but Maestro Pistolero chooses to characterize my suggested course of action as “cowering”. My decision to conduct myself in a polite, respectful and thoughtful manner can hardly be correctly characterized as cowering. I have had the opportunity to observe people who use "in your face tactics", and I can emphatically state that those tactics work wonderfully in a 90 minute action adventure movie, but they do not work on real people. As another member posted, he has converted liberals into being gun owners by taking them shooting. I have a similar experience that is still in the works. Recently, I bought my 5 year old daughter a cricket .22 rifle and have taken her shooting. She told her friends at school about our outing. Two weeks ago my wife and I hosted a pizza party for my daughter’s kindergarten friends and their parents. Since my daughter let the cat out of the bag that she has a rifle and I have taken her shooting, one of the parents brought up the topic of firearm ownership, safety and shooting. We ended up having a lengthy group discussion, and one of the issues that I pointed out was that as I am teaching my daughter firearm safety and shooting, she is also learning responsibility. None of these adults have been introduced to nor do they own firearms, and consequently they have some fears and concerns. The discussion I had with them satisfied their fears and concerns, and at the end of the evening, every adult asked me to take them and their daughter with us on our next shooting outing, and a couple adults want me to take them shooting. When this issue was brought up by that parent, I could have avoided the topic and “cowered”, as Maestro Pistolero thinks I have, or I could have adopted the defensive attitude of its “none of anyone's f@#king business” as Maestro Pistolero suggested in his post.

RandyD
05-02-2009, 8:14 AM
We have a lot of work to restore a culture where that's possible. Once we've fixed the culture and made it so that most of the people are familiar with guns and they are normal again, then we will be able to raise children as you remember being raised.

My daughter will safely handle guns before she is nine. If she expresses any interest in going out with me, we'll go hiking, shooting, and hunting together. I also do my best with otherwise liberal friends in Southern California. So far, eight liberals are now gun owners after I took them to the range and taught them how to safely shoot a gun.

You are on point. It is the culture that we need to change. I have never met anyone who did not enjoy going shooting. The prevailing culture in California does not have any connection to firearm related hobbies. We need to reintroduce shooting back into our culture.

RandyD
05-02-2009, 8:26 AM
So funny looking at today's society - we used to ride our bikes the ~1.5 miles, or a few of us cousins walk the shorter route to by BB and pellets at the local corner gas station - we could by BBs and pellets, and chewing tobacco (for our uncle of course), but not 22s or smokes...
enter 42.54.56.11 N x 112.28.28.67 W and you can see the farm is still there.
or
http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=h&lat=42.915939&lon=-112.475516&zoom=16
the gas station was at Chubbuck and Yellowstone. My uncle hunted pheasant on that farm!

Grandparents had farmed it 50 years, the lady that owned had changed her will to give it to them, but died before she signed it. Her sons claimed it, contested the new will, and got it, and then sold it off to some wealthy schmuck who put his son and friends into the house so the could go to ISU, and they stole everything out of a building that was "agreed" storage and got away scot clean. and my grandparents and parents (et al.) were too stupid to fight at any point, and also too broke to hire anyone to fight it. You get the justice you can pay for. part of why I like this site - a little financial help can the world of a difference in so many peoples lives trying to just get back basic rights!


Docskinner,
So you grew up in Pocatello? My grandparents' ranch was North of the tricities area on the Snake River. I remember some trips to Idaho, there were lots of ground squirrels to shoot at. My cousin and I have unsuccessfully tried for the last 4 years to meet in Idaho during the late spring to go shoot ground squirrels, but either our work schedules or the weather cancels our trip.

Maestro Pistolero
05-02-2009, 9:49 AM
In my earlier thread, I suggested using discretion but Maestro Pistolero chooses to characterize my suggested course of action as “cowering”. My decision to conduct myself in a polite, respectful and thoughtful manner can hardly be correctly characterized as cowering.

Please allow me to apologize for the characterization. I do understand your predicament. My rant was much more of a reaction to people like your nosy neighbors, than to your way of dealing with it.

It was unfair, and I apologize. Please note that I still make a distinction between accommodating the irrational fears of a peeping tom, and being 'in the face' of an anti gunner. Your discretion and concern is proper and wise, and you don't need me to tell you that.

Sincerely,
Maestro Pistolero

sreiter
05-02-2009, 9:50 AM
i clean my guns on the balcony - however, i disassemble/reassemble them indoors - i dont think people would know what i'm doing just cleaning a barrel or hand gun slide - dont know how many people could ID individual gun parts

you could always go with a ultra sonic cleaners in doors if you're worried about the smell

chrisdesoup
05-02-2009, 10:06 AM
I lived in apartments for years and I just moved my kitchen table near the sliding glass door to the patio and set up a small floor fan (I use Sweets 7.62 STINKY STUFF)... I cleaned inside just so I would not have to deal with my patches blowing off the table or something rolling off my patio (I lived on the 2nd story). I started reading the whole 7 pages but it seemed to turn into a pi**ing match....

RandyD
05-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Please allow me to apologize for the characterization. I do understand your predicament. My rant was much more of a reaction to people like your nosy neighbors, than to your way of dealing with it.

It was unfair, and I apologize. Please note that I still make a distinction between accommodating the irrational fears of a peeping tom, and being 'in the face' of an anti gunner. Your discretion and concern is proper and wise, and you don't need me to tell you that.

Sincerely,
Maestro Pistolero

Spoken like a true gentleman. Thanks

odysseus
05-02-2009, 1:25 PM
Strange how some of you jump right to the conclusion that someone whom wouldn't want to do this is somehow a coward to expressing their fundamental rights. I can agree though that depending on who it is in your situation, someone might call the PD with a "brandishing" case and there you might be with the PD at your door asking to see your AR/AK/etc in a tense situation. It happens, people lie and exaggerate crap all the time. I have been in that situation before. Their is a risk there, but that's not why I don't.

Bottom line, I keep items on the down-low because I don't want anyone knowing what I have. For me it is a first layer of security. I have good neighbors for the most part, but I don't need some random person out there seeing me with high dollar guns like a flag, look at me and what I have.

I simply choose not to advertise my possessions to the public for display.
.

berto
05-02-2009, 1:39 PM
Put up a screen of some sort to keep the prying eyes away. If they ask about the screen tell them you tan in the nude.

obeygiant
05-02-2009, 3:15 PM
Wow, way to represent Calguns and gun-owners in general. :rolleyes: You need to remember we were all newbies once.....

Just want to say Welcome, Soloo. :) As you can see we have a "diverse" group of gunowners here. Just ignore the snide comments. Yes, there is snideness in diversity.

I'll second both of those comments. One of things that I appreciate the most about Calguns is fair treatment i've received whenever i've had a question.

bigcalidave
05-03-2009, 12:49 AM
Wow, this thread hasn't been locked yet? lol...

javalos
05-03-2009, 8:32 AM
I can recall when I lived in my rented house, I came back after a day at the range, it was a warm summer day, a slight breeze and there was no way I was going to get high on Hoppe's on the kitchen table I set up my small portable table in my porch, a chair and my radio, and began breaking down my Ruger P-89 and 1911. About 30 minutes later, two police approached me with their hands on their holstered guns, but not drawn on me. They asked me to step away from the table, I complied, and they saw that the handguns were broken down in pieces and it was obvious what I was doing. They relaxed and we talked for a bit, they told me a neighbor reported that I was waving my guns around and I told them that whoever that neighbor was, to mind their own business. They apologized for the inconvenience and left. I had a good feeling as to who it was, a liberal piece of **** whom I didn't like.

Maestro Pistolero
05-03-2009, 10:27 AM
Wow, this thread hasn't been locked yet? lol...

Why, it's been a spirited debate, but on point.

Maestro Pistolero
05-03-2009, 10:31 AM
I can recall when I lived in my rented house, I came back after a day at the range, it was a warm summer day, a slight breeze and there was no way I was going to get high on Hoppe's on the kitchen table I set up my small portable table in my porch, a chair and my radio, and began breaking down my Ruger P-89 and 1911. About 30 minutes later, two police approached me with their hands on their holstered guns, but not drawn on me. They asked me to step away from the table, I complied, and they saw that the handguns were broken down in pieces and it was obvious what I was doing. They relaxed and we talked for a bit, they told me a neighbor reported that I was waving my guns around and I told them that whoever that neighbor was, to mind their own business. They apologized for the inconvenience and left. I had a good feeling as to who it was, a liberal piece of **** whom I didn't like.

That's what I'm saying. Cops aren't stupid. But they know how stupid people can be. You need to be polite, and unapologetic in a circumstance like this, and it sounds like you were.

RandyD
05-04-2009, 7:31 AM
I can recall when I lived in my rented house, I came back after a day at the range, it was a warm summer day, a slight breeze and there was no way I was going to get high on Hoppe's on the kitchen table I set up my small portable table in my porch, a chair and my radio, and began breaking down my Ruger P-89 and 1911. About 30 minutes later, two police approached me with their hands on their holstered guns, but not drawn on me. They asked me to step away from the table, I complied, and they saw that the handguns were broken down in pieces and it was obvious what I was doing. They relaxed and we talked for a bit, they told me a neighbor reported that I was waving my guns around and I told them that whoever that neighbor was, to mind their own business. They apologized for the inconvenience and left. I had a good feeling as to who it was, a liberal piece of **** whom I didn't like.

I am glad that the situation resolved in your favor, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize that the situation could have turned out completely different. Your real life situation is on point with the hypothetical situation that I posted previously. In thinking through these scenarios, what bothers me is that we are put on the defensive for engaging in legal activities.

RW Dunn
05-04-2009, 11:54 AM
Nice way of getting harrased from your local PD and giving the local crimnal population a reason to break into your house. It's your choice as what you do in your life and with your weapons. I've never advertise the fact i have firearms in my house, no bumper stickers with gun phrase's or the wearing of fatigues(camo). To my neighbors i'm the nice guy that doesn't go out of his to be overly friendly and they have no clue of the legal fire power in my home and i aim to keep it that way. Don't need the problems

bwiese
05-04-2009, 12:01 PM
If you really want to brashly & publicly assert your RKBA rights by cleaning guns on your balcony for all to see, do be prepared for "interaction".

Make sure everything in your life (as expressed thru the contents of your apt and vehicle) is legal.

We have, several times, seen drama from the legal part of a person's 'gun life', once some LEO contact occurs, extend to more questionable gun areas as well as non-gun arenas.

Why make drama for yourself?

Bathrooms/bathtubs work fine for cleaning. Or disassemble and clean the smaller parts that are not identifiable as gun parts on the balcony.

DDT
05-04-2009, 12:08 PM
Sadly, in most parts of California you are more likely to be harassed for cleaning a gun on your porch than for defiling the neighborhood cat on your porch.

chaseman
05-04-2009, 2:15 PM
You could always just buy a glock and put it in the dishwasher :thumbsup:

wash
05-05-2009, 10:04 AM
I worry more about people knowing that I have guns because I don't want to get robbed.

I can't wait to get a house so that I can come and go without moving my guns down a public stairwell. I'll also be able to clean in the backyard behind a nice privacy fence.

I've never thought it was a good idea to advertise the presence of guns, if someone breaks in while I'm home I want them to be surprised. Carpet is replaceable...

If there are thugs walking down the street I would not want them to see any firearms. They would probably like to steal a gun more than a 50" LCD TV.

All I want people to see outside my house is motion activated lights and 24 hour monitored alarm signs.