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hoffmang
04-30-2009, 5:01 PM
SAF, CALGUNS FOUNDATION CHALLENGES CALIFORNIA HANDGUN BAN SCHEME

For Immediate Release: 4/30/2009

BELLEVUE, WA and REDWOOD CITY, CA – The Second Amendment Foundation, The Calguns Foundation and four California residents today filed a lawsuit challenging a California state law and regulatory scheme that arbitrarily bans handguns based on a roster of “certified” handguns approved by the State. This case parallels a similar case filed in Washington, DC, Hanson v. District of Columbia.

California uses this list despite a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court last summer that protects handguns that ordinary people traditionally use for self-defense, and a recent ruling by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that the Second Amendment applies to state and local governments. The California scheme will eventually ban the purchase of almost all new handguns.

Attorney Alan Gura, representing the plaintiffs in this case, noted that California “tells Ivan Peña that his rights have an expiration date based on payment of a government fee. Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions,” he said. “A handgun protected by the Second Amendment does not need to appear on any government-approved list and cannot be banned because a manufacturer does not pay a special annual fee.”

“The Para Ordnance P-13 was once approved for sale in California,” Peña noted, “but now that a manufacturer didn’t pay a yearly fee, California claims the gun I want to own has somehow become ‘unsafe’.”

“The Glock-21 is the handgun I would choose for home defense, but California has decided the version I need is unacceptable. I was born without a right arm below my elbow and therefore the new ambidextrous version of the Glock-21 is the safest one for me. The identical model designed for right hand use is available in California, but I can’t use it,” said plaintiff Roy Vargas.

Added SAF founder Alan Gottlieb, “The Supreme Court’s decision is crystal clear: Handguns that are used by people for self-defense and other lawful purposes cannot be banned, whether the State likes it or not. California needs to accept the Second Amendment reality.”

Co-counsel Jason Davis remarked, “The California Handgun Roster has always been about making the possession of handguns for self defense more difficult by imposing arbitrary and unconstitutional restrictions that limit choice and increase the cost of exercising a fundamental right.”

Joining plaintiffs Peña and Vargas are Doña Croston and Brett Thomas. Doña Croston’s handgun would be allowed if it were black, green, or brown, but her bi-tone version is supposedly ‘unsafe’ merely based on color. “I didn’t realize that my constitutional rights depended on color. What is it about two colors that makes the gun I want to purchase ‘unsafe’?”

Brett Thomas seeks to own the same model of handgun that the Supreme Court ordered District of Columbia officials to register for Dick Heller. However, that particular model is no longer manufactured, and its maker is no longer available to process the handgun’s certification through the bureaucracy.

“There is only one model of handgun that the Supreme Court has explicitly ruled is protected by the Second Amendment and yet California will not allow me to purchase that gun,” said Mr. Thomas.

“The so-called ‘safe’ gun list is just another gun-grabbing gimmick,” said co-counsel Donald Kilmer. “California can’t get around the Second Amendment, as incorporated, by declaring most normal guns ‘unsafe,’ and gradually shrinking the number of so-called ‘safe’ guns to zero.”

The Second Amendment Foundation (www.saf.org) is the nations oldest and largest tax-exempt education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the Constitutional right and heritage to privately own and possess firearms. Founded in 1974, The Foundation has grown to more than 600,000 members and supporters and conducts many programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control. SAF has previously funded successful firearms-related suits against the cities of Los Angeles; New Haven, CT; and San Francisco on behalf of American gun owners, a lawsuit against the cities suing gun makers and an amicus brief and fund for the Emerson case holding the Second Amendment as an individual right.

The Calguns Foundation (www.calgunsfoundation.org) is a non-profit legal defense fund for California gun owners. The Calguns foundation works to educate government and the public and protect the rights of individuals to own and lawfully use firearms in California.

------

The complaint is available (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/pena/Pena-v-Cid-complaint.pdf).

We've held off on NRF's because we didn't want to duplicate work on the Roster.

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 5:03 PM
excellent.

dexter9659
04-30-2009, 5:07 PM
Nice work! Can you give an approximate time line of the events to follow in the case?

kermit315
04-30-2009, 5:07 PM
This is great news. Tagged to watch.

While I hope this will be resolved before I move, I know the reality is that it wont be. If I get my way though, I will be back in California in 3 years, and hopefully have all kinds of doors opened to me upon return.

unusedusername
04-30-2009, 5:08 PM
Yay! Now it's just TWO WEEKS :)

Matt C
04-30-2009, 5:08 PM
Roy and Ivan FTW.

Hopi
04-30-2009, 5:09 PM
Great plaintiffs!! Great work!!

FS00008
04-30-2009, 5:18 PM
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!


I love it! Two weeks!!!!

PolishMike
04-30-2009, 5:20 PM
Great picking of plaintiffs. Smart work.

Mike

Ps - What kind of timetable are we looking at before this case gets heard?

McCrown
04-30-2009, 5:24 PM
This is great news!

AngelDecoys
04-30-2009, 5:24 PM
I can only imagine the discussion occurring in Sacramento. How fun would it be a fly on the wall in that office. :43:

Nice. :thumbsup:

Tweak338
04-30-2009, 5:28 PM
Nice work as usual Gene!
(And the other right people ;))

Experimentalist
04-30-2009, 5:44 PM
What a fantastic choice of plaintiffs and handguns. :thumbsup:

I wonder what the opposition might say regarding the claim that the pool of approved handguns is / will monotonically decrease (my interpretation of the press release). I suppose the features required to meet the safety threshold could become unacceptably burdensome, but proving it will become true seems challenging.

PatriotnMore
04-30-2009, 5:46 PM
Let me mirror the sentiment here, outstanding!!!!!

trilogy
04-30-2009, 5:48 PM
:jump: <= That's about how happy I am right now. Thank you guys for everything you are doing!

--Matt

wildhawker
04-30-2009, 5:52 PM
Hat tip to CGF, SAF, Gura/Kilmer/Davis, the plaintiffs and the folks who brought the second amendment to California; fire up the roller boys, we're doing some paving...

trashman
04-30-2009, 5:55 PM
I LOVE IT!!!!

--Neill

sorensen440
04-30-2009, 5:56 PM
I like it :D

PatriotnMore
04-30-2009, 5:57 PM
At the peril of two weeks, is there a court date?

Saigon1965
04-30-2009, 6:02 PM
Hopefully we'll have a nice Christmas -

AEC1
04-30-2009, 6:02 PM
Man this is like losing my virgi..... all over again!!

pidooma
04-30-2009, 6:06 PM
That Ivan guy is always causing trouble.

DRM6000
04-30-2009, 6:06 PM
WOO HOO!!! Thank you fine gentleman at the CGF. I'll donate some dollars to the cause.

jas000
04-30-2009, 6:13 PM
Didn't even get halfway through the press release before I scrolled to the "Donate to the CalGuns Foundation" link a the top of the page. $100 to the cause!

anthonyca
04-30-2009, 6:13 PM
CGF and the SAF make me proud to be an American and have sworn an oath to defend the Constitution.

Thank you.

FreshTapCoke
04-30-2009, 6:14 PM
Scheme indeed.

Thank you for all your work and the hope it brings us.

chico.cm
04-30-2009, 6:15 PM
*raises glass*
Long live CGF!

KUJO
04-30-2009, 6:25 PM
Long live CGF.

Thanks a lot CGF for fighting to get our rights back.

sorensen440
04-30-2009, 6:27 PM
Long live CGF!
I would actually like the opposite :p

JeffM
04-30-2009, 6:29 PM
Kick *** Gene :thumbsup:

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 6:32 PM
I would actually like the opposite :p+1. If they clean house, they can put CGF to bed.

highpowermatch
04-30-2009, 6:39 PM
Feels so good to have the pro gun movment making so much headway, good luck to you all. Great work Calguns!

k0ncept
04-30-2009, 6:43 PM
This makes me proud to be an AMERICAN!

Kishfisser
04-30-2009, 6:48 PM
Wow, I get caught up in the LaRue craptacular and this pops up. Great news. More to CGF on payday.

mmbasser
04-30-2009, 6:50 PM
"What is it about two colors that makes the gun I want to purchase ‘unsafe’?”

:thumbsup:

That's gotta ring true for anyone with a brain.

Good Show!

JTecalo
04-30-2009, 6:56 PM
back to catfood :D, just sent 50.

DDT
04-30-2009, 7:03 PM
Please tell me Brett's "willing seller" is Dick Heller. That would be so poetic. To know the same handgun was responsible for 2 significant rights recovery decisions would be awesome.

Think we can get permission from whoever owns the High Standard name to make a limited edition?

redneckshootist
04-30-2009, 7:05 PM
this is awsome, makes me happier than a preachers son at a biker babe rally

thedrickel
04-30-2009, 7:09 PM
Send donations guys, I know for a fact that the CGF depends on your donations to facilitate these things. Besides that I just want to say . . .


TWO WEEKS~!!!!!!!!!`11

:D

tombinghamthegreat
04-30-2009, 7:09 PM
The gun laws of CA are slowly falling. Look at just 3 years ago, we had to struggle with OLLs now we are moving to get rid of the roster and soon hopefully the AWB laws:thumbsup: I approve.

C.G.
04-30-2009, 7:10 PM
Excellent.:thumbsup:
Time to donate some money.

n2k
04-30-2009, 7:10 PM
Excellent news, I was sitting in a meeting when Mr. Hoffman called to let someone know. That was really exciting.

yellowfin
04-30-2009, 7:12 PM
Mr Gura's chapters in the history books get thicker and thicker.

artherd
04-30-2009, 7:13 PM
The first RKBA case post Incorporation - in LESS THAN TWO WEEKS! ;)

There will be more.

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 7:13 PM
+1. If they clean house, they can put CGF to bed.

Here here!

Ladies and Gents, please look deep in your pocket. This is the beginning of a blitzkrieg in California. Winning a war is not cheap, but it is for keeps.

California will respect civil rights.

-Gene

Racefiend
04-30-2009, 7:14 PM
I was wondering when the first post Nordyke attack was going to come. Good job guys!

taloft
04-30-2009, 7:27 PM
Gene, you weren't kidding when you said it would be worth the wait.:thumbsup:

Talk about opening with a bang!:p Can't wait to see what you folks have planned next. I emailed this to the president of the San Diego NRA members council. He also is a committee member of my gun club. I'm hoping the wider exposure will generate some donations to help the fight along. I'll be sending money right after this post. Good job!:hurray:

RP1911
04-30-2009, 7:29 PM
I knew something was up since Gene seemed to be in 'seclusion' and hadn't posted in some obvious threads.

Fight on! or is it Fish on!

ChrisXD45T
04-30-2009, 7:30 PM
Outstanding!

How long can they delay coming to a decision on this case?
What kind of resistance can you expect from CA?

Bad Voodoo
04-30-2009, 7:33 PM
:79:

sfpcservice
04-30-2009, 7:42 PM
California Love!!!!!!!!

lobonegro
04-30-2009, 7:42 PM
Excellent news. Great work gentlemen!

dustoff31
04-30-2009, 7:44 PM
I can only imagine the discussion occurring in Sacramento. How fun would it be a fly on the wall in that office. :43:

Nice. :thumbsup:

It very likely sounds much like what another member here said:


OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!

mossy
04-30-2009, 7:48 PM
YAY!! this is the post i have been longing for.

ZUMNDAD
04-30-2009, 7:54 PM
That's freakin' awesome. Just got a bonus check from work...and just donated half of it to CGF. Maybe it will be a white Christmas - as in the white AR they are presenting Palin :rolleyes: :thumbsup:

Librarian
04-30-2009, 7:54 PM
Such a nice little update to the Calguns Foundation Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/The_Safe_Handgun_List) :) (See 8.1)

ETA: MudCamper and I have been sharing at the assorted THR sites.

2009_gunner
04-30-2009, 7:56 PM
There's a list of Eastern CA District judges here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_Distr ict_of_California
and
http://judgepedia.org/index.php/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_Distr ict_of_California

I wonder how long it will take to get a case # and start going through the process... I've never followed a case start to finish before - should be very interesting!

Edit: just sent in $25

Nodda Duma
04-30-2009, 8:14 PM
Saw the email and forwarded it to my local dealer. .. hopefully he'll disseminate it to the local shooters and get you guys some publicity in the most gun-friendly region of the state :thumbsup:

-Jason

Cali-V
04-30-2009, 8:21 PM
I love it...
Way to go...

Gene, is it too early to start to thinking about a preliminary injunction on California’s “Handgun Roster” Scheme?

wildhawker
04-30-2009, 8:25 PM
Donating to CGF should be like voting in Chicago... early and often.

Just a heads-up, Calguns will have booths setup at gunshows across the state (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=170) (including this weekend at Cow Palace). Not only will we be taking donations at the booth, we'll also have some very cool new Calguns gear for sale- as always, 100% of the net proceeds of all sales go straight to the Foundation.

Calgunners, imagine what could be achieved if we gave just 10% of our ammo budgets to the Foundation. Please do stop by and give what you can to help support CGF and this fight to recover and protect our rights.

blackberg
04-30-2009, 8:26 PM
Nice!

-bb

jb7706
04-30-2009, 8:28 PM
Shh! Do you hear that? AM just shed another tear... I guess the two of us have something in common after all, but for very different reasons.

It's a great day for us all!

jasilva
04-30-2009, 8:30 PM
Donated, go get em boys.:chris:

MudCamper
04-30-2009, 8:31 PM
We (California Patriots) are on offense people! And it sure feels better than all those years of playing defense. Be a part of it, and donate (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate)!

lioneaglegriffin
04-30-2009, 8:34 PM
donated fidy.

Nex ut Roster

copenhagen269
04-30-2009, 8:37 PM
Donation sent :thumbsup:

obeygiant
04-30-2009, 8:44 PM
Way to Go! Donation will be in on payday.

CitaDeL
04-30-2009, 8:50 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, there seems to be momentum building in the direction of progress. If we can maintain this momentum on a variety of fronts, there is no telling how far we can push back the encroachment we have endured.

I dont make much since my hours have been reduced, but I will be making a point of donating to both my second amendment perogatives this friday.

I think that dontation drives are important, but I believe it would work better and be less a strain on members pocket books if we endeavored to donate smaller amounts with regularity to fill CGF coffers. Commiting $10-$20 a month is as good or better than pulling out an occasional C-note. After this next donation, I will try to budget a monthly contribution. I hope others will follow suit.

fd15k
04-30-2009, 8:50 PM
donated :43:

Roadrunner
04-30-2009, 8:55 PM
Congratulations to the legal team, and thank you for defending my second amendment rights. I know that you don't like tipping your hand but can you give us a hint as to what's next?

oaklander
04-30-2009, 8:57 PM
Yes, that's what I do. I set up a "recurring payment" in my online banking account. Money comes out automatically each month.

Ladies and gentlemen, there seems to be momentum building in the direction of progress. If we can maintain this momentum on a variety of fronts, there is no telling how far we can push back the encroachment we have endured.

I dont make much since my hours have been reduced, but I will be making a point of donating to both my second amendment perogatives this friday.

I think that dontation drives are important, but I believe it would work better and be less a strain on members pocket books if we endeavored to donate smaller amounts with regularity to fill CGF coffers. Commiting $10-$20 a month is as good or better than pulling out an occasional C-note. After this next donation, I will try to budget a monthly contribution. I hope others will follow suit.

nick
04-30-2009, 9:06 PM
Wish my tax money was spent as well...

cousinkix1953
04-30-2009, 9:07 PM
I can only imagine the discussion occurring in Sacramento. How fun would it be a fly on the wall in that office. :43:

Nice. :thumbsup:
Sssssh! Do you live in the Sacramento area? The Assembly Rules Committee has it's own radio system. You can eavesdrop on them with a police scanner. Other services such as Folsom Prison are on this 800 mhz. trunked sysyem; but most of us can tell the different between a jailhouse guard and some politicians discussing pending legislation...

Can'thavenuthingood
04-30-2009, 9:29 PM
Hot diggety, attack and attack some more. Looks like a trend is setting in around here. Finally, the full fledged assaults I have been dreaming of are underway.
Dont stop it feels good. Makes ya feel kinda giddy don't it?

Vick

jacques
04-30-2009, 9:30 PM
More good news. :thumbsup:

Trader Jack
04-30-2009, 9:30 PM
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

It is about time this "List" was put to bed. To much energy was put into "Nerf" "Black Rifles" and " Assault Pistols" The "List" is the real enemy of gun control.

I have been critical in the past of many on this site because of there self centered interest in "Black Rifles" and others such as B.W. for his seemingly lack of support to dismantle the "List"

Now thanks to you all, Gene, CGF, SAF. ALL gun owners in California may get a fair chance to own what they may.

In spite of my *****ing in the past, you Gene have always had my respect. Now you have an even greater respect and my total support.

Ivan Penna knows who I am and can contact me for any help I may be able to offer.

GO GET EM.:thumbsup:

ARBITER
04-30-2009, 9:35 PM
Thanks Ivan Pina, Roy Vargas, Dona Croston Bret Thomas. I'm sure glad others will stick their necks out to Defend the 2nd Amendment. You guys are great. John Contos WWW.Sonomafirearms.Com Taking orders for Non Rostered Guns

Trader Jack
04-30-2009, 9:35 PM
:rolleyes: I would love to see all store front ffls in Ca. grow some foresails between there legs and just say screw the list when it comes to colors, calibers, finish, etc. In other words the Glock 21SF with a/b mag release, the Sig 226 with a two tone or a 22 cal. etc etc. If all stood together on this the DOJ would be dead in the water. In unity there is strength

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 9:38 PM
I knew something was up since Gene seemed to be in 'seclusion' and hadn't posted in some obvious threads.

I'm impressed you noticed I was being quiet...


In spite of my *****ing in the past, you Gene have always had my respect. Now you have an even greater respect and my total support.


I hope you now know why I was asking for two weeks :43: .

-Gene

Sam
04-30-2009, 9:41 PM
I just donated a hundred bucks for each week this will take...this will only take two weeks right?

$200 was just sent to the good guys.

thanks!

Saigon1965
04-30-2009, 9:42 PM
You didn't even peeked at my UNC basketball thread this year - And they won -

I'm impressed you noticed I was being quiet...



I hope you now know why I was asking for two weeks :43: .

-Gene

bwiese
04-30-2009, 9:49 PM
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
I have been critical in the past of many on this site because of there self centered interest in "Black Rifles" and others such as B.W. for his seemingly lack of support to dismantle the "List"

Ummm... what? Why is my interest in 'black rifles' self-centered?

You must be drinking something interesting.

All my long guns are reg'd AWs. I have 4 OLL receivers "just cuz". In theory, I shouldn't give a hoot about anything else 'cuz "I'm all set" with 6 ARs an AR 10 and 2 FALs.

Also, when did you ever see me NOT be enthusiastic for taking down The List? It just had to be done at the right time (post Nordyke). The other holes (NeRFs, etc) were useful bypasses until then and would be the way to go if we didn't have Nordyke.

We've all be looking for ways to take things down. Rendering some body of law irrelevant first (OLLs, other guns thru single-shot/single-action conversion, etc.) can often be useful.

And you'll finally be able, Trader Jack, to not worry about forcing Roster overrides on the DROS system.

M. D. Van Norman
04-30-2009, 9:51 PM
Well played. Too bad we won’t be able to afford new handguns in post-roster California. :o:thumbsup:

bwiese
04-30-2009, 9:53 PM
Well played. Too bad we won’t be able to afford new handguns in post-roster California. :o:thumbsup:

Who sez?
The price should drop because this ;)

soopafly
04-30-2009, 9:54 PM
yawn....wake me up when I can buy a Caspian with no hassle.














:p
go get 'em.
:shuriken:

Tier One Arms
04-30-2009, 9:54 PM
bwiese, please make an avatar, haha, its so much easier to find your post.

M. D. Van Norman
04-30-2009, 9:59 PM
Who sez?
The price should drop because this ;)

But our bank accounts will be empty from supporting the cause. :cool:

Oh, well. Can’t find ammo anyway. :no:

4thSeal
04-30-2009, 10:05 PM
TYVM for all your work...

Donation made...

:patriot:

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 10:28 PM
You didn't even peeked at my UNC basketball thread this year - And they won -

I admit that I've stopped watching OT at all.

Go Heels!

-Gene

calnurse
04-30-2009, 10:34 PM
i want that darn springfield xdm!!!! i predict a downfall to that crazy safe handgun list!!!!!!!!!

timdps
04-30-2009, 10:49 PM
I'm impressed you noticed I was being quiet...
-Gene

I'm sure that there were more than a few of us noticing the quiet Gene... and we know what it means...

Tim

rbgaynor
04-30-2009, 10:53 PM
Awesome, awesome news. Donation made!

artherd
04-30-2009, 10:59 PM
I have been critical in the past of many on this site because of there self centered interest in "Black Rifles"

Hah - are you high? ;) You don't think we've had this planned out from the start?

artherd
04-30-2009, 11:00 PM
:rolleyes: I would love to see all store front ffls in Ca. grow some foresails between there legs and just say screw the list when it comes to colors, calibers, finish, etc. In other words the Glock 21SF with a/b mag release, the Sig 226 with a two tone or a 22 cal. etc etc. If all stood together on this the DOJ would be dead in the water. In unity there is strength

Uh, you'd have all store front FFLs in jail. Civil disobedience only works in very narrow circumstances.

That's why we have federal courts.

Gunm
04-30-2009, 11:16 PM
I want The List to cease to exist too, (XDm :drool5:) but what's to stop the DoJ from saying that there are ambidextrous 'not-unsafe' guns listed, like the Walther P99 and the newly rostered Ruger SR9? Or that you can still buy a gun that's not on the list through private party transfer?:confused:

thegratenate
04-30-2009, 11:17 PM
Does this case specifically address the magazine capacity issue?
Or will that have to be sorted out later?
I consider the roster to be kind of like a wall built of many blocks, if we could get the whole thing tossed out it would be awesome, but if we can only get it thrown out piece by piece that would be awesome as well.

Thank you to all who do this great work.

N6ATF
04-30-2009, 11:18 PM
In a world...

where the legislature wasn't controlled by evil, victim-disarming, pro-criminal safety, subhumans, could they repeal the penal codes in question to settle or negate the lawsuit?

Roadrunner
04-30-2009, 11:19 PM
Just wondering, when can I own a Taurus Judge in California?

WokMaster1
04-30-2009, 11:23 PM
Ladies & gentlemen, the liberation of California has begun...........:thumbsup::thumbsup:

TheBundo
04-30-2009, 11:24 PM
Just wondering, when can I own a Taurus Judge in California?

This case likely won't affect that

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 11:24 PM
but what's to stop the DoJ from saying that there are ambidextrous 'not-unsafe' guns listed, like the Walther P99 and the newly rostered Ruger SR9? Or that you can still buy a gun that's not on the list through private party transfer?:confused:

The state has to justify why the Glock Ambi is not an arm protected by the Second Amendment or why their scheme is somehow so important that it negates a fundamental enumerated right.

Do you think the state could ban the sales of Atlas Shrugged at bookstores while still allowing individuals to sell the book between themselves?

-Gene

nick
04-30-2009, 11:28 PM
Just wondering, when can I own a Taurus Judge in California?

It's not the roster issue, but the fact that they consider it an SBS...

That being said, I think two weeks is a safe estimate.

nick
04-30-2009, 11:30 PM
Do you think the state could ban the sales of Atlas Shrugged at bookstores while still allowing individuals to sell the book between themselves?

-Gene

Oh, it could. Whether it'd stand in court, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't put banning it anyway past our legislature.

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 11:31 PM
Oh, it could. Whether it'd stand in court, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't put banning it anyway past our legislature.

Prosecuting a ham sandwich and passing unconstitutional laws are common... Having them stand up to the Third branch...

-Gene

tonelar
04-30-2009, 11:34 PM
This is excellent news! Go get sum y'all. I just donated $$ for the cause.

bwiese, please make an avatar, haha, its so much easier to find your post.
+1
bweise,
here's one you'd be able to display proudly:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i202/tonelar/guns/AudiPlate.jpg

Roadrunner
04-30-2009, 11:38 PM
It's not the roster issue, but the fact that they consider it an SBR...

That being said, I think two weeks is a safe estimate.

You bring up an interesting point that made me think. If the revolver can be sold in other states, and there are shot rounds for .38's and .22's; if an AR can be built into a pistol, then why would the Judge still be illegal in California after the Roster is torpedoed?

themethod
04-30-2009, 11:40 PM
Right on! I have some money to donate as well... see you at the Cow Palace this weekend! :)

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 11:46 PM
You bring up an interesting point that made me think. If the revolver can be sold in other states, and there are shot rounds for .38's and .22's; if an AR can be built into a pistol, then why would the Judge still be illegal in California after the Roster is torpedoed?shot shells in rifle/pistol calibers arent' considered fixed shotgun shells.

A Judge is restricted in CA because it is a Short-barreled Shotgun. CA law defines SBS differently than the feds do. That is why it is ok federally, but not ok in CA.
12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:

(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.

(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

ivanimal
04-30-2009, 11:56 PM
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

It is about time this "List" was put to bed. To much energy was put into "Nerf" "Black Rifles" and " Assault Pistols" The "List" is the real enemy of gun control.

I have been critical in the past of many on this site because of there self centered interest in "Black Rifles" and others such as B.W. for his seemingly lack of support to dismantle the "List"

Now thanks to you all, Gene, CGF, SAF. ALL gun owners in California may get a fair chance to own what they may.

In spite of my *****ing in the past, you Gene have always had my respect. Now you have an even greater respect and my total support.

Ivan Penna knows who I am and can contact me for any help I may be able to offer.

GO GET EM.:thumbsup:

Thank you Jack, as a great patriot once said "I may hate what you have to say but I would die for your right to say it" - ... Jean-Jacques Rousseau

We have always seen eye to eye when we meet. I will look you up if we need you. It is always better to have your answers questioned by an ally.:)

This fight is for keeps. Once we let our rights slip further away we lose. We dont always agree, but we fight for the same cause.

What matters is that we fight.

RideIcon
05-01-2009, 12:00 AM
amazing! :gunsmilie:

Beatone
05-01-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm glad to see this going forward. :thumbsup:

ivanimal
05-01-2009, 12:09 AM
Oh yeah I almost forgot. Bill I gave you an avatar, remove it if you like. The Eagle signifies your persona to me...........................:)

lioneaglegriffin
05-01-2009, 12:11 AM
i want that darn springfield xdm!!!! i predict a downfall to that crazy safe handgun list!!!!!!!!!

still the mag cap problem with the XDM. Maybe a XDM in 45 will be out by time we can get one, just think a handgun the holds 15+1 .45 ACP. (sigh) :)

FortCourageArmory
05-01-2009, 12:25 AM
Excellent news!!! I was so giddy that I just sent off a donation to CGF. Wish I could do more $$. Maybe if we sell more guns, there will be more $$ to donate. ;)

Again, great work boys.

Fat_Rat
05-01-2009, 12:32 AM
I just donated 15.00 USD. Sorry I wish I could give more but im only working 32 hours a week. Gook luck to all of us.

bigcalidave
05-01-2009, 12:56 AM
Good work guys ! Keep knocking em down!

Sobriquet
05-01-2009, 1:05 AM
Just heard the good news! Well done, gentlemen. Well done.

Godspeed, Mr. Gura.

SanSacto
05-01-2009, 1:27 AM
Beretta 90-Two
Heckler & Koch HK45

I need to donate more, seriously.......

halifax
05-01-2009, 4:09 AM
I was pretty busy yesterday and didn't get on CGN until this AM.

I'm still floating about a foot off the ground :)

As I was putting the "forever" stamp on my donation check's envelope, I noticed it had the Liberty Bell on it and couldn't help but think...

LET FREEDOM RING
:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

Blackhawk556
05-01-2009, 4:57 AM
How long can this take to get resolved? 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, or 3years???
Is there a "hopeful" timelime?

gbran
05-01-2009, 5:21 AM
When all is settled and done, I hope a ruling would be broad enough to allow us Californians to buy a .410 Judge, even though it's not just a roster issue.

glockk9mm
05-01-2009, 5:25 AM
Good news to hear!!!! My donation will be inbound today.

MAILMAN187
05-01-2009, 5:30 AM
Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!

joe_sun
05-01-2009, 5:44 AM
Brilliant! I've have another donation out ASAP! Keep up the FANTASTIC work!

ilbob
05-01-2009, 5:57 AM
any chance DOJ will agree and just fold?

CaliforniaLiberal
05-01-2009, 6:16 AM
Fantastic! My support of CGF is rewarded tenfold.

My understanding of lawsuit timelines is that it's like asking how long is a piece of rope. It takes as long as it takes. Many possibilities at every turn. Difficult to predict it is.

Don't hang your hopes on a quick resolution. Plan for the long haul.

Is six months to three years a likely range?

CL

Untamed1972
05-01-2009, 6:18 AM
I liked the including of a "lefty" in the complaint. I have long said that us lefties are one of the most discriminated class of persons there is in this country.

Good job....go get 'em guys! :thumbsup:

Sawdust
05-01-2009, 6:23 AM
This is wonderful news. Good show.

$100 donated...

Sawdust

sd_shooter
05-01-2009, 6:30 AM
Ok, now I'm beginning to see what calguns is all about. Donated! :chris:

Can'thavenuthingood
05-01-2009, 6:36 AM
Ladies & gentlemen, the liberation of California has begun...........:thumbsup::thumbsup:

There's a gun show T-shirt slogan right there.
No, its a Calguns Foundation motto.

Actually its suitable for a Calguns Foundation shirt.
Has there been an agreement on the Foundation logo yet?

Vick

Forever-A-Soldier
05-01-2009, 6:40 AM
Way to go guys! This is excellent news, and having met Ivan, I'm so happy to see his name attached to it. I firmly believe sometimes that Calguns has fought harder on getting us back our 2A rights and guns than any other California organization. OLLs and now this... Calguns is a force to be reckoned with by the PRK anti-gunners. Sending donation ASAP! :thumbsup:

F.A.S. Out

gef
05-01-2009, 6:41 AM
Nice, it's about time.

CoyoteHuntress
05-01-2009, 6:44 AM
IM curious why NRA is not involved?

I sure hope this tosses out that stupid "pay me to play" list Calif insists on having...

elenius
05-01-2009, 7:02 AM
I'm surprised at the timing of this; I thought this would come after the DC roster case had finished, and build on that. But I'm glad cases are being rolled out in parallel. Otherwise it would take 100 years just to cover the basics.

:thumbsup:

Can'thavenuthingood
05-01-2009, 7:06 AM
Forgot to mention I got a call last night about suppertime from SAF seeking donations. The guy making the call was not very well informed of what he was trying to say.
Wish these guys would school themselves on the subject prior to embarrassing themselves. I told him about Calguns and Gene and Bill and the Foundation etc. After a long pause he said Calguns is "Actually affiliated with SAF".

Hope he educated himself after calling me. He did not receive a donation from me on that call.

I have sent SAF money but lately my donations have gone to a more local, vocal and active homegrown bunch:D

Vick

Paladin
05-01-2009, 7:08 AM
Excellent news!!! I was so giddy that I just sent off a donation to CGF. Wish I could do more $$. Maybe if we sell more guns, there will be more $$ to donate. ;)After this lawsuit is won and the other(s) required to take CA to "Shall Issue" or its equivalent, I'm sure you see a significant increase in your handgun sales. Because of this, I hope that handgun manufacturers, distributors, retail outlets, and their trade associations support CGF.

Speaking of which . . . I'll send in a donation later today. :thumbsup:

But Gene has to promise me CGF will move forward re CCWs -- either directly or indirectly (i.e., LOC) -- this year!

All in all, this is great new. While we must not ignore Sacto and all the garbage they'll try to push down our throats (it is cheaper to make a dozen calls, faxes, and emails to cmte members or a few dozen to legislators than to fight a federal court case), we have started "turning the corner" of a very long corner.

:party:

gazzavc
05-01-2009, 7:14 AM
Prosecuting a ham sandwich and passing unconstitutional laws are common... Having them stand up to the Third branch...

-Gene

Depends if the ham sandwich is being prosecuted under the strict laws of Kosher........:)

mecam
05-01-2009, 7:16 AM
Awesome, will be donating again next payday. I hope Sac would just fold and save tax payers some money.

Need to start figuring out how to neuter an XDM mag to 10rds. :rolleyes:

motorhead
05-01-2009, 7:17 AM
YES! sic semper tyrannis!

jksupplyco
05-01-2009, 7:20 AM
Way to go guys....

double_action
05-01-2009, 7:20 AM
This is GOOD!

SunriseF150
05-01-2009, 7:24 AM
You guys are Excellent!

1BigPea
05-01-2009, 7:40 AM
Another amazing development from CGF and friends to restore our rights here in CA. Thanks again Gene and everyone else involved in this. Couldn't have been better getting the alert email in my inbox this AM!!!! You guys are truly awesome!!! :thumbsup:

Donation Sent!

bulgron
05-01-2009, 7:41 AM
I haven't read through this entire thread, so maybe this point has already been made. But I got up this morning and started reading the press release, and I started laughing it was so ridiculous. Frankly, parts of it border on satire.

If I didn't know it was real and the law actually worked that way, I'd have thought that it was written by the Onion.

Way to go, all those who are involved. Not only is this an incredibly important step in regaining our gun rights in California, but it's also going to be incredibly entertaining to watch.

ilbob
05-01-2009, 7:56 AM
IM curious why NRA is not involved?

I sure hope this tosses out that stupid "pay me to play" list Calif insists on having...

They may be. Just not as plaintiffs.

I would not be surprised to see an amicus brief from them.

The NRA does not have to put its hand into every gun case, and probably should not.

zx6roxy
05-01-2009, 8:00 AM
This is excellent news.

ilbob
05-01-2009, 8:01 AM
Speaking of which . . . I'll send in a donation later today. :thumbsup:

But Gene has to promise me CGF will move forward re CCWs -- either directly or indirectly (i.e., LOC) -- this year!

What if strategically it is better to wait?

WatchMan
05-01-2009, 8:04 AM
Donation on the way.

I'll be having dreams of an HK45 tonight...

colossians323
05-01-2009, 8:08 AM
Just read the email/press release.
You guy's are amazing!

copenhagen269
05-01-2009, 8:11 AM
Really want that XDM :)

colossians323
05-01-2009, 8:11 AM
The first RKBA case post Incorporation - in LESS THAN TWO WEEKS! ;)

There will be more.

Thats what I'm talking about!

Can'thavenuthingood
05-01-2009, 8:12 AM
IM curious why NRA is not involved?

I sure hope this tosses out that stupid "pay me to play" list Calif insists on having...

My bet is most all of those guys are NRA members so the NRA is involved. We individuals are the NRA.

Myself I'd prefer the NRA badge/logo to stay under the radar. We Calgunners are the voters the politicians must listen to if they are to keep their jobs (okay, in theory).
Calguns.net and the CRPA are the homegrown California organizations with actual voter clout. Read that as our Representatives, not a lobbyists contact on a long list of contract obligations.

We voters put them in office.

We are the NRA but CGF, CGN and CRPA are better weapons to use in this fight.

Vick

Afmo
05-01-2009, 8:12 AM
Mr. Burns says Excellent!

soundwave
05-01-2009, 8:25 AM
Thank you!!! This is excellent news!

peepshowal
05-01-2009, 8:26 AM
This is great news! Go get 'em!

jb7706
05-01-2009, 8:30 AM
IM curious why NRA is not involved?

I sure hope this tosses out that stupid "pay me to play" list Calif insists on having...

Who says they are not? In a fight like this I can't see how they would not be involved at some level, both in DC and here in CA. NRA does a lot of stuff that they never get credit for.

Cypren
05-01-2009, 8:30 AM
Brilliant. Congratulations to all involved for putting together such an excellent case and roster of plaintiffs; it's going to be entertaining watching the State try to defend this.

rivviepop
05-01-2009, 8:33 AM
I submitted the news/release to AmmoLand. Gene, for $85 they will feature the information for 3 days if you want to work with them, the info is here:

http://www.ammoland.com/submit/


Does your Press Release even need more Exposure?

AmmoLand offers a Paid Placement of your Press Release as the fixed story on our home page for three days for $85.00. The home page of AmmoLand.com is the busiest page on the web for Shooting Sports News and Events and by locking in your news you are guaranteed to get the most exposure for your recent news or promotion. Use the submit news link below and include a note of your interest with your contact information. Subject to availability.


Someone with contacts at the various newspapers should work on getting the news into those folks, let's get some serious exposure on the issue.

MP5
05-01-2009, 8:34 AM
yessss, gene you are a machine, keep it up :patriot::clap:

they cant decide not to review this one :thumbsup:

bwiese
05-01-2009, 8:46 AM
My bet is most all of those guys are NRA members so the NRA is involved. We individuals are the NRA.

Myself I'd prefer the NRA badge/logo to stay under the radar. We Calgunners are the voters the politicians must listen to if they are to keep their jobs (okay, in theory).

The NRA's name doesn't need to be on every case. And you might recognize some of the lawyers' names being on prior NRA-sponsored cases.

In prior cases sometimes you saw other gun org's names at the top on cases even though bulk of funding didn't come from those groups.

That's not the case here, though - this was just kinda "low-hanging fruit" just waiting for exploitation post-Nordkye - and the ducks were readily able to be lined up in a row.

Suvorov
05-01-2009, 8:50 AM
This is great news! I forwarded the e-mail I got to all my Free State gunnies to keep them abreast of the offensive that we are on here in the PRK! Thanks to the hard work of the CalGuns leadership and all the "little people" who are supporting the Foundation with their meager paychecks. :thumbsup:

I wonder how long it will take the "haters" in the other states to wake up and realize that WE are changing the laws in Kalifornia?

nochance
05-01-2009, 8:50 AM
Tremendous work guys, this was a great thing to read in first thing in the morning. Donation coming.

shirow
05-01-2009, 8:54 AM
This is so awesome. Thanks to all who made it happen!

ripcurlksm
05-01-2009, 9:05 AM
so what is the time line on this?

Scarecrow Repair
05-01-2009, 9:05 AM
But Gene has to promise me CGF will move forward re CCWs -- either directly or indirectly (i.e., LOC) -- this year!

"You are doing so well, I will support you if you will do it my way from now on."

An absolutely terrible counterproductive idea. Gene and CGF have shown they know what they are doing. Don't mess with success.

hiyabrad
05-01-2009, 9:13 AM
Congratulations on this tremendous step forward for all of us!

rivviepop
05-01-2009, 9:19 AM
AmmoLand has quickly carried the press release, great exposure!

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/05/01/4-california-residents-filed-a-lawsuit-challenging-ca-gun-law/

.22guy
05-01-2009, 9:25 AM
so what is the time line on this?

You have to ask? Two weeks!!!! :eek::cool:

Always wanted to say that.....

madmike
05-01-2009, 9:31 AM
I have just increased my automatic monthly donation to CGF by $10.00.
I will do this every time a new attack on Californias idiotic gun laws is announced(up to the point that I can no longer afford Top Ramen).
I challange every calguns member to do the same (or feel free to make me look cheap).
Keep it up, you guys are wicked freekin' awesome!!!!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
-madmike.

ripcurlksm
05-01-2009, 9:35 AM
well I meant the timeline as the start of the trial -- at work, cant read

Adonlude
05-01-2009, 9:36 AM
Excellent!!! Maybe the state will be smart and simply concede the loosing battle instead of dragging this out and delaying our inevitable unsafe purchases!

Rukus
05-01-2009, 9:41 AM
Way to go guys, keep up the good fight.

CHS
05-01-2009, 9:46 AM
This is the beginning of a blitzkrieg in California.

When Gene uses words like "Blitzkrieg", I just go all weak in the knees... :)

lazyworm
05-01-2009, 9:47 AM
Yay! This is great news!

What's the approx timeline of a suit like this?
Is it going to go in parallel with the DC suit?

Blackhawk556
05-01-2009, 9:50 AM
Can we expect to have this case resolved in less than 2yrs????

hoffmang
05-01-2009, 9:54 AM
The case is procedurally about 45 days behind the DC Roster case. For various reasons they may end up being on mutual time lines.

We're likely to get a ruling in the District Court in 120 days but lots of variables will effect that. Once we hear one way or another this case will be appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. CA DOJ is required by the California Constitution to defend this case until it is final.

-Gene

calnurse
05-01-2009, 9:59 AM
Forget buying myself a Playstation 3; i am saving up for a Springfield XDm. :jump:

Blackhawk556
05-01-2009, 10:01 AM
The case is procedurally about 45 days behind the DC Roster case. For various reasons they may end up being on mutual time lines.

We're likely to get a ruling in the District Court in 120 days but lots of variables will effect that. Once we hear one way or another this case will be appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. CA DOJ is required by the California Constitution to defend this case until it is final.

-Gene

Sorry if I don't understand all this correctly but, in 120 days we should have a better understanding on when this case might be final?

Blackhawk556
05-01-2009, 10:04 AM
Forget buying myself a Playstation 3; i am saving up for a Springfield XDm. :jump:

When I first read the email "xdm" popped into my head :). I just bought a springfield xd but if the stars line up the xdm is next on my list.

MP5
05-01-2009, 10:04 AM
Forget buying myself a Playstation 3; i am saving up for a Springfield XDm. :jump:

just donate all of your money to Calguns :)

7x57
05-01-2009, 10:04 AM
When Gene uses words like "Blitzkrieg", I just go all weak in the knees... :)

Let's see, what were the elements of blitzkreig? If I vaguely remember right, they are a brief overwhelming artillery fire, frontal assault on a weak point of the line, tanks pouring through the breakthrough, envelopment of the edges of the breakthrough, and pushing through to more distant rear-area weak points.

I'd like to think this is the beginning of the assault on unprotected high-value rear-area targets by the armored divisions pouring through the gap.

For your enjoyment, here is a little image of the series of PHLs bearing down on the illegal laws and law-breaking legislators:

http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/p-221.jpg

And here is Alan Guderian Gura, inspecting the troops marshalled for the assault:

http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/p-223.jpg

7x57

MP5
05-01-2009, 10:06 AM
Sorry if I don't understand all this correctly but, in 120 days we should have a better understanding on when this case might be final?

don't hold your breath

yellowfin
05-01-2009, 10:07 AM
This is going to be huge in rallying the troops on other fronts (states) who are just playing defense right now.

7x57
05-01-2009, 10:10 AM
This is going to be huge in rallying the troops on other fronts (states) who are just playing defense right now.

I hope the best analogy is blood in the water. :43:

Except that in the frenzy a lot of dumb or premature lawsuits would result, so maybe troops marching with Prussian discipline would be better. Never happen with gunnies, though.

Let's hope that part of the inspiration for others is to imitate the discipline to follow a long-term strategy rather than a feel-good one.

7x57

CHS
05-01-2009, 10:12 AM
CA DOJ is required by the California Constitution to defend this case until it is final.


Wow. Really?

They're actually required by law to waste my and other tax-payers money on defending an unconstitutional law to the death? Even if they know they'll lose?

That is one of the most asinine things I've EVER heard. This week.

shirow
05-01-2009, 10:24 AM
So is NeRFing still in the plan as a near term solution?

bwiese
05-01-2009, 10:28 AM
So is NeRFing still in the plan as a near term solution?

We'll see. What we don't want is to create interference/muddying side cases.

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 10:28 AM
When Gene uses words like "Blitzkrieg", I just go all weak in the knees... :)

so is one of the other blitzes against the AW ban based upon Miller And that a sawed off shotgun wasn't protected as it wasn't a weapon in used/employed by a militia? The converse would certainly seem to be that "AW"s are most certainly then protected.

Always wondered why that hadn't been challenged, but now learning all the individual right/incorporation etc. steps involved have a better understanding.


Edit: delete if this isn't supposed to be here.

7x57
05-01-2009, 10:33 AM
so is one of the other blitzes against the AW ban

From an earlier thread I seem to recall that the roster, shall-issue, and the AW ban were likely to be the first three lawsuits, and the roster was likely to be first for technical reasons. And yesterday we saw that that roadmap was holding good so far. OC (i.e. LOC) was likely to be after CCW for technical and strategic reasons but on the high-value target list.

Whether the legal basis is a direct attack on Miller seems to me to be at the discretion of The Right People--if you hire good people, you tell them what you want and then give them the latitude to get there as they deem best.

7x57

ke6guj
05-01-2009, 10:37 AM
Wow. Really?

They're actually required by law to waste my and other tax-payers money on defending an unconstitutional law to the death? Even if they know they'll lose?

That is one of the most asinine things I've EVER heard. This week.I wonder how/when that requirement came about.

Because I do remember CA capitulating on lawsuits before.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prop_187#Legal_challengesThe constitutionality of Prosposition 187 was challenged by several lawsuits. On November 11, 1994, federal judge Matthew Byrne issued a temporary restraining order against instituting most of it.[6] Multiple cases were consolidated and brought before Judge Mariana Pfaelzer, who in November 1997 found the law to be unconstitutional.[3] Governor Wilson appealed the ruling, which brought the case to the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. In 1999, newly elected Democratic Governor Gray Davis had the case brought before mediation,[7] and then dropped the appeals process before the courts, effectively killing the law.[8]

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 10:47 AM
I wonder how/when that requirement came about.

Because I do remember CA capitulating on lawsuits before.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prop_187#Legal_challenges



Or with Brown not representing the state in the Prop 8 affair?

This place is such a good civics refresher!

chaseman
05-01-2009, 10:47 AM
This is incredible, awesome!

chaseman
05-01-2009, 10:50 AM
Can somebpody tell me how to tag this so I can follow it?

Dark&Good
05-01-2009, 11:09 AM
Help! I can't seem to find the online donation link on the CGF website...

1BigPea
05-01-2009, 11:12 AM
Help! I can't seem to find the online donation link on the CGF website...

Right next to the OLL Assembly Guide at the top of the page... :thumbsup:

domokun
05-01-2009, 11:13 AM
Help! I can't seem to find the online donation link on the CGF website...

You mean like the info in this thread?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=108030

Dark&Good
05-01-2009, 11:15 AM
Yeah, I used the PayPal link from the other thread already... Thanks.

Monte
05-01-2009, 11:18 AM
Wow. Really?

They're actually required by law to waste my and other tax-payers money on defending an unconstitutional law to the death? Even if they know they'll lose?

That is one of the most asinine things I've EVER heard. This week.

I agree. It's really annoying that they'll be using our money to defend these stupid laws that restrict our rights.

Thank you again, Gene and everyone at the CGF. I'll be sending some money next payday. I like this idea of automatically sending payments every month, too. I'm going to have to look into setting something like up.

Can't wait for the AW ban and CCW to be challenged and eliminated! :thumbsup:

This almost makes up for my missing the BCM BCGs this morning. :43:

tophatjones
05-01-2009, 11:18 AM
Thanks!

IGOTDIRT4U
05-01-2009, 11:22 AM
The NRA's name doesn't need to be on every case. And you might recognize some of the lawyers' names being on prior NRA-sponsored cases.

In prior cases sometimes you saw other gun org's names at the top on cases even though bulk of funding didn't come from those groups.

That's not the case here, though - this was just kinda "low-hanging fruit" just waiting for exploitation post-Nordkye - and the ducks were readily able to be lined up in a row.

Speaking of low hanging fruit, the micro-stamping law should fall quite easily if CGF wins the roster case. Similar fact pattern, IMHO.

bugman
05-01-2009, 11:25 AM
:clap: This is great news!

peepshowal
05-01-2009, 11:30 AM
I agree. It's really annoying that they'll be using our money to defend these stupid laws that restrict our rights.

Thank you again, Gene and everyone at the CGF. I'll be sending some money next payday. I like this idea of automatically sending payments every month, too. I'm going to have to look into setting something like up.

Can't wait for the AW ban and CCW to be challenged and eliminated! :thumbsup:

This almost makes up for my missing the BCM BCGs this morning. :43:
+ 1,000,000.:D:D

At least I'll have a little extra to donate to the cause now. I hope the CG booth at the Cow Palace is very busy. See you all there in the morning.

CHS
05-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Speaking of low hanging fruit, the micro-stamping law should fall quite easily if CGF wins the roster case. Similar fact pattern, IMHO.

If the roster falls, it takes the microstamping requirement with it automatically. Microstamping is just one of the factors that's required for a gun to get onto the roster. It's not a separate law in and of itself.

xxdabroxx
05-01-2009, 11:37 AM
GO CGF! Darn exciting stuff. :thumbsup:

I have a link in my sig to donate if you wish.

IGOTDIRT4U
05-01-2009, 11:44 AM
If the roster falls, it takes the microstamping requirement with it automatically. Microstamping is just one of the factors that's required for a gun to get onto the roster. It's not a separate law in and of itself.

Thanks for adding that. I thought micro-stamping was a seperate subsection of the penal code. I didn't realize the amended the code that describes the roster requirement to add the micro-stamping.

DDT
05-01-2009, 11:52 AM
Let's see, what were the elements of blitzkreig? If I vaguely remember right, they are a brief overwhelming artillery fire affection, frontal assault on a weak point of the line, tanks pouring through the breakthrough, envelopment of the edges of the breakthrough, and pushing through to more distant rear-area weak points.

Reminds me of my dating days, back before I was married.

boxbro
05-01-2009, 11:55 AM
This is awesome.
When they win I'll finally be able to get the Grizzly 50 AE I have been dying for for many years now.
It's next to impossible to find one in CA for a private party transfer which is the only way to get one here.

boxbro
05-01-2009, 12:01 PM
We (California Patriots) are on offense people! And it sure feels better than all those years of playing defense. Be a part of it, and donate (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate)!

Just donated to the cause, not much but it was what I could afford.
Even small donations add up.

7x57
05-01-2009, 12:02 PM
IM curious why NRA is not involved?


I don't know, but I can think of lots of reasons. Some guesses:



Wise use of resources: if focused groups like Calguns or SAF are willing to do it, the NRA should spend it's money in places those groups cannot go, like legislative lobbying.

Division of labor (another aspect of the above): The NRA seems to have a special strength in working the legislative branch, so it simply makes sense to let specialty litigation groups take the lead if they wish to.

Local conditions: having the NRA's name on something in California can be a liability where it would be an advantage in, say, Kentucky. Let someone else front it.

First out of the gate: SAF and CGF already have a near identical case in DC, so they're set up to do this one. Why re-invent the wheel?



Add your own items to the list--it's easy and fun. We don't need to read much more into it.

Besides, many things get NRA support that don't have their name. Someday we may find that the NRA paid for lawyer time or some other kind of behind-the-scenes support.

7x57

MKE
05-01-2009, 12:04 PM
I'm so stoked about this...thank you, Calguns and all fellow 2nd Amendment activists, for your continual support and hard work.

Donation for $50 just submitted (confirmation #8VU1373206749640N). Will definitely add more soon.

7x57
05-01-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm surprised at the timing of this; I thought this would come after the DC roster case had finished, and build on that. But I'm glad cases are being rolled out in parallel. Otherwise it would take 100 years just to cover the basics.


Yeah, I expected that too, from what Gene said. I'm curious why the parallel strategy.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

7x57

artherd
05-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by elenius
I'm surprised at the timing of this; I thought this would come after the DC roster case had finished, and build on that. But I'm glad cases are being rolled out in parallel. Otherwise it would take 100 years just to cover the basics.

For a variety of reasons, we're doing them in parallel quite deliberately so. One of the best things about CGF is that the board is composed entirely of persons with quite a lot of business experience. We're very good at reading the proverbial tea leaves and adapting in realtime to changing conditions.

7x57
05-01-2009, 12:23 PM
“The Glock-21 is the handgun I would choose for home defense, but California has decided the version I need is unacceptable. I was born without a right arm below my elbow and therefore the new ambidextrous version of the Glock-21 is the safest one for me. The identical model designed for right hand use is available in California, but I can’t use it,” said plaintiff Roy Vargas.


Hmm, I'm the world's worst with names, but I bet I sat next to Roy at the Nordyke dinner. I bet he's having fun being "case law guy." :43:

7x57

DDT
05-01-2009, 12:23 PM
If the AG can submit a handgun for inclusion on the roster what would keep the AG from simply submitting the 4 pistols in question and mooting the lawsuit?

ke6guj
05-01-2009, 12:36 PM
I didn't see that the AG can submit handguns for inclusion in 12125 thru 12133 Handgun Safety Testing . If the 4 pistols in question do not meet the required safety devices needed to pass the Roster testing, how could they be listed?

DDT
05-01-2009, 12:55 PM
I got the information from Paragraph 22 of the complaint:

“Other than the DOJ, only the manufacturer/importer of a handgun model is
authorized to submit that handgun model to a DOJ-Certified Laboratory for testing.”

jasilva
05-01-2009, 1:02 PM
I got the information from Paragraph 22 of the complaint:

That's only submission for testing NOT approval. The point of that paragraph is to show WE as citizens do not have equal protection regarding submissions for testing.

Joe

ke6guj
05-01-2009, 1:04 PM
I got the information from Paragraph 22 of the complaint:

OK, but does that allow for them to submit for testing to be added to the roster, or annual retesting of 5% of the rostered-models.? If the AG submitted for submission to the roster, who would pay the listing fees? Also, which of the 4 handguns in question could pass the current roster requirements?

edwardm
05-01-2009, 1:08 PM
Even if you could get those 4 items on the list, the court would probably still hear the case because it represents an issue that is, as the Court once said, "capable of repetition, yet evading review."

You could argue to the court that you'll just go back outside, find 4 more plaintiffs representing 4 more guns, and be right back to court the next day. The set of facts giving rise to the issue, and the underlying law creating those facts, would cause the same type of claim to arise in a repetitive manner.

I don't recall how narrowly the court construes that doctrine these days, but Texas tried to moot Roe v Wade because Roe was no longer pregnant when the case was heard. Obviously Texas got the big FAIL award on that line of reasoning.

If the AG can submit a handgun for inclusion on the roster what would keep the AG from simply submitting the 4 pistols in question and mooting the lawsuit?

DDT
05-01-2009, 1:12 PM
I think the Ivan's Para and Brett's wheel gun would both pass but since the others wouldn't I suppose they couldn't totally moot the suit under the current regulations.

DocSkinner
05-01-2009, 1:28 PM
Also always wonder how something that isn't safe is safe for LEO... I know why they did it, just seems like another wedge/nail.

gbran
05-01-2009, 1:28 PM
I still have my Taurus Judge question. If this suit prevails and the roster goes away, would the Judge be legal or still banned due to the .410 issue? Is the Judge banned due to some law other than a roster issue?

.22guy
05-01-2009, 1:31 PM
I think that's an AW ban issue. It's a shotgun with a rotating cylinder.

Barbarossa
05-01-2009, 1:33 PM
XD9822HCSP06 .40S&W here I come!

I love it when a plan comes together.

:notworthy:

Roadrunner
05-01-2009, 1:36 PM
I still have my Taurus Judge question. If this suit prevails and the roster goes away, would the Judge be legal or still banned due to the .410 issue? Is the Judge banned due to some law other than a roster issue?

I asked this same question in this thread and was told that it's illegal under 12020 because they view it as a short barrel shotgun instead of a handgun. What I'm interested in knowing is this being attacked because of the equality clause in the 14th amendment. In other words, if the police can have guns that are not on the roster, does that make it unconstitutional to deny them to the general public?

ke6guj
05-01-2009, 1:36 PM
The Taurus Judge is a short-barreled shotgun in CA.


It may be an AW as well, but that is debatable. It does not meet the definition of a shotgun, so it may not fall under the shotgun AW regulations.

Librarian
05-01-2009, 1:43 PM
OK, but does that allow for them to submit for testing to be added to the roster, or annual retesting of 5% of the rostered-models.? If the AG submitted for submission to the roster, who would pay the listing fees? Also, which of the 4 handguns in question could pass the current roster requirements?

That's the retesting part; to get on the Roster it's the manufacturer/distributor. There are no provisions in the law for the AG to directly place a handgun on the Roster.

ke6guj
05-01-2009, 1:45 PM
thats what I thought.

GuyW
05-01-2009, 1:56 PM
Maybe some of the fallout will be that a few DOJ drones will have to get different jobs...
.

ilbob
05-01-2009, 2:05 PM
don't hold your breath
How long did it take for parker/heller?

Librarian
05-01-2009, 2:13 PM
How long did it take for parker/heller?

6 years

xxdabroxx
05-01-2009, 2:43 PM
I would think that this would move much quicker being that the majority of the decision has already been made, via heller and nordyke. Well, one can only hope.

Paladin
05-01-2009, 2:59 PM
After this lawsuit is won and the other(s) required to take CA to "Shall Issue" or its equivalent, I'm sure you see a significant increase in your handgun sales. Because of this, I hope that handgun manufacturers, distributors, retail outlets, and their trade associations support CGF.

Speaking of which . . . I'll send in a donation later today. :thumbsup:

But Gene has to promise me CGF will move forward re CCWs -- either directly or indirectly (i.e., LOC) -- this year!

All in all, this is great new. While we must not ignore Sacto and all the garbage they'll try to push down our throats (it is cheaper to make a dozen calls, faxes, and emails to cmte members or a few dozen to legislators than to fight a federal court case), we have started "turning the corner" of a very long corner.

:party:
Just want to clarify why I put that bit about CCWs in this thread re challenging the roster.

I'm a native Californian and I remember quite well when we never had a "state approved list" for handguns, when affordable self-defense handguns (aka "Saturday Night Specials") (e.g., Jennings and Raven HGs), and semi auto versions of MAC-9s/10s (incl ones w/the briefcase containers :cool2:), FN-FAL HBs, and HK-91s were common sights at the many gun stores of the SF Bay Area.

So for me, getting rid of the roster and the AWB, although extremely important, are just regaining lost territory. Getting to "Shall Issue" or its equivalent, either by direct challenge or forced indirectly via LOC, is something we've NEVER had, at least not in my lifetime. That is when we'll be gaining new ground against the antis and, just as important IMO, against the BGs on the streets. :chris:

I'm confident Gene, Bill, and all the rest of the team know that I fully trust their strategy & timing for reclaiming our Rights as Citizens of the united States of America.

God bless!

BroncoBob
05-01-2009, 3:04 PM
Read this alert this morning while waiting for the Mercedes dealership in Pleasanton to open this morning to drop my wifes car off for service. Later in the AM was talking to Ryan at JK Supply about it as I was picking up a new addition to my collection. This my friends is exciting times!

Nachoman
05-01-2009, 3:12 PM
Pardon my ignorance and I'm pretty sure I know the answer already, but I'm assuming that this handgun ban has nothing to do with the hi cap mag ban? Would be nice to be able to get the exact same gun (with the exact same mag capacity) in CA as in other states.

CSDGuy
05-01-2009, 3:13 PM
The magazine capacity ban would probably have to be a separate suit.

smallblockfuelie
05-01-2009, 3:24 PM
Fantastic news! I donated a bit to help in the good fight. Thanks.

Flogger23m
05-01-2009, 3:26 PM
Nice work. This (logically) is the first law that should be taken down.

DDT
05-01-2009, 4:03 PM
I would think that this would move much quicker being that the majority of the decision has already been made, via heller and nordyke. Well, one can only hope.

It should, in fact move much faster, but the DoJ will likely try to drag its feet for at least 12months AFTER losing to implement a system that will permit the entry of non-roster handguns into the DROS system.

JarenC81
05-01-2009, 4:10 PM
Also always wonder how something that isn't safe is safe for LEO... I know why they did it, just seems like another wedge/nail.

Yeah, crazy how the state negligently allows LEOs access to unsafe guns. Perhaps they are saving the equal protection argument for high capacity magazines?

Great news by the way!

domokun
05-01-2009, 4:20 PM
It should, in fact move much faster, but the DoJ will likely try to drag its feet for at least 12months AFTER losing to implement a system that will permit the entry of non-roster handguns into the DROS system.

Well technically they can DROS non-rostered pistols right now based on an "exempt" status because exempted persons such as LEO or family members who get gifted a non-rostered pistol from their parents or children are not subject to the roster. The big question is if they'll provide an interim solution to the issue or force us to wait until the software is updated.

CHS
05-01-2009, 4:41 PM
Well technically they can DROS non-rostered pistols right now based on an "exempt" status because exempted persons such as LEO or family members who get gifted a non-rostered pistol from their parents or children are not subject to the roster. The big question is if they'll provide an interim solution to the issue or force us to wait until the software is updated.

Yeah, you can dros ANYTHING as "exempt" without a reason.

Currently though, you cannot do it LAWFULLY unless it actually is and exempt transfer.

Ground Loop
05-01-2009, 8:07 PM
Hi-Five to CGF! Of course, since I can't reach your palm from here, PayPal will have to do.

Donation inbound. Keep up the good fight.

aileron
05-01-2009, 8:07 PM
Wow... late to the party again. Great news.

Good job CGF!!!

shark92651
05-01-2009, 8:24 PM
This is excellent, Gene. I'm inspired to once again donate to CGF - another payment sent :thumbsup:

Identiaetlos
05-01-2009, 8:40 PM
New to California (moved from Oregon) and I just registered to the site, today. I heard about this case a while ago and right on.

Thank you to you guys for sticking up for what's right. Soon as my next paycheck comes in I'll probably be donating.

Roadrunner
05-01-2009, 9:29 PM
Attorney Alan Gura, representing the plaintiffs in this case, noted that California “tells Ivan Peña that his rights have an expiration date based on payment of a government fee. Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions,” he said. “A handgun protected by the Second Amendment does not need to appear on any government-approved list and cannot be banned because a manufacturer does not pay a special annual fee.”

Besides me, does anyone else think that this handgun roster is nothing less than government sanctioned extortion?

DDT
05-01-2009, 9:37 PM
Besides me, does anyone else think that this handgun roster is nothing less than government sanctioned extortion?

Well, it's that and a way to try and restrict the trade in tools of expression for 2A rights.

Roadrunner
05-01-2009, 10:09 PM
Well, it's that and a way to try and restrict the trade in tools of expression for 2A rights.

I agree.

vrand
05-01-2009, 10:26 PM
Besides me, does anyone else think that this handgun roster is nothing less than government sanctioned extortion?

"Unless restrained, all governments devolve to tyranny."