PDA

View Full Version : Bullet Buttons & Constructive posession?


Untamed1972
04-30-2009, 3:23 PM
Something posted in another thread sparked a question in my mind.

If someone has an AR with a BB properly installed on it, but they are "in posession" of the standard mag release button, could they be considered in "constructive posession" and an unRAW because they have the parts with which to "manufacture and AW"?

Josh3239
04-30-2009, 3:25 PM
No, California doesn't have a constructive possession clause for non-NFA.

m1match
04-30-2009, 3:27 PM
No, to my knowledge, the CA AW statutes do not have constructive possession incorporated into them. Also, to my knowledge, in our firearms world, only a few things like the 1934 National Firearms Act have constructive possession concepts incorporated. So, for example, if you owned an AR lower and you also possessed an unregistered AR short barreled upper, you have a problem even though the two are not assembled.

Untamed1972
04-30-2009, 3:32 PM
No, to my knowledge, the CA AW statutes do not have constructive possession incorporated into them. Also, to my knowledge, in our firearms world, only a few things like the 1934 National Firearms Act have constructive possession concepts incorporated. So, for example, if you owned an AR lower and you also possessed an unregistered AR short barreled upper, you have a problem even though the two are not assembled.

gotcha! :thumbsup:

bwiese
04-30-2009, 4:40 PM
If someone has an AR with a BB properly installed on it, but they are "in posession" of the standard mag release button, could they be considered in "constructive posession" and an unRAW because they have the parts with which to "manufacture and AW"?

'Constructive possession' does not exist in for parts collections forming AWs/50BMG rifles when assembled. It also doesn't exist for separated hicap magazine parts.

Aside from Fed law, in CA 'constructive possession' *DOES*exist for SBRs and SBSes (phrasings in 12020(c) definitions), machineguns (12200PC definition) and destructive devices (12301 definition, IIRC). So watch your arse with shorty bbls, FA fire-control parts, etc. esp if you already own a matching receiver.

However just beause C.P. doesn't exist for AWs doesn't mean you should tempt fate by driving around with a gripless featureless FAL and a grip right nearby. Remember that cops/DAs can arrest/charge "a ham sandwich". Just because a case is winnable doesn't mean you wanna go there. Keep parts that mix & match well separated from each other.

dmckean44
04-30-2009, 5:02 PM
No, to my knowledge, the CA AW statutes do not have constructive possession incorporated into them. Also, to my knowledge, in our firearms world, only a few things like the 1934 National Firearms Act have constructive possession concepts incorporated. So, for example, if you owned an AR lower and you also possessed an unregistered AR short barreled upper, you have a problem even though the two are not assembled.

I think the only way to own a short barreled upper if own a lower is to also own a pistol lower.

Untamed1972
04-30-2009, 5:16 PM
'Constructive possession' does not exist in for parts collections forming AWs/50BMG rifles when assembled. It also doesn't exist for separated hicap magazine parts.

Aside from Fed law, in CA 'constructive possession' *DOES*exist for SBRs and SBSes (phrasings in 12020(c) definitions), machineguns (12200PC definition) and destructive devices (12301 definition, IIRC). So watch your arse with shorty bbls, FA fire-control parts, etc. esp if you already own a matching receiver.

However just beause C.P. doesn't exist for AWs doesn't mean you should tempt fate by driving around with a gripless featureless FAL and a grip right nearby. Remember that cops/DAs can arrest/charge "a ham sandwich". Just because a case is winnable doesn't mean you wanna go there. Keep parts that mix & match well separated from each other.

Thanks for the good advice BDub! :thumbsup:

Seesm
04-30-2009, 5:21 PM
Goofy laws suck but I do not think there is anything to what you asking...

The idea that you could be charged with C.P. if you have a pistol upper wiht no lower is outrageious I think... I mean I am building a pistol and I had the upper first that SHOULD BE ok.... I hate goofy laws.

But hopefully Cal Guns will make some of them LESS Goofy!!

bwiese
04-30-2009, 5:22 PM
I think the only way to own a short barreled upper if own a lower is to also own a pistol lower.

Yup. Or own the shorty upper and no lowers at all :(

BTW, aside from disassembled AW stuff, it doesn't matter how separated parts forming an illegal combo (SBR, SBS, MG etc.) are - if you have a short bbl in LA and an AR rifle or rifle lower receiver in Marin County, you're still in a no-no situation.

dfletcher
04-30-2009, 5:32 PM
'Constructive possession' does not exist in for parts collections forming AWs/50BMG rifles when assembled. It also doesn't exist for separated hicap magazine parts.

However just beause C.P. doesn't exist for AWs doesn't mean you should tempt fate by driving around with a gripless featureless FAL and a grip right nearby. Remember that cops/DAs can arrest/charge "a ham sandwich". Just because a case is winnable doesn't mean you wanna go there. Keep parts that mix & match well separated from each other.

Would stashing one's regular mag release inside a BB'nd AR pistol grip be considered pushing it? A little or alot?

bwiese
04-30-2009, 5:36 PM
Would stashing one's regular mag release inside a BB'nd AR pistol grip be considered pushing it? A little or alot?

Rumor has it it takes a fair bit of effort (force) to remove a BB device, seems there's a snug fit. [Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or further clarify; my ARs are all reg'd AWs so I don't have BBs.]

Also, the fact that a tool would be required to remove the BB which also requires a tool to remove the mag would seem to be a fairly decent separation barrier.

The only worry again is what happens in a police evidence locker if the gun were seized for specious reasons - and it may be helpful to not provide the exact component whose installation at a nearby workbench would reconfigure the rifle to AW status.

Josh3239
04-30-2009, 5:40 PM
Bill, I am still running the original bullet button. To remove it would require removal of the mag catch and then taking a hammer and a punch to the back of the cage. The newer ones I think aren't as tight.

Untamed1972
04-30-2009, 6:40 PM
Rumor has it it takes a fair bit of effort (force) to remove a BB device, seems there's a snug fit. [Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or further clarify; my ARs are all reg'd AWs so I don't have BBs.]

Also, the fact that a tool would be required to remove the BB which also requires a tool to remove the mag would seem to be a fairly decent separation barrier.

The only worry again is what happens in a police evidence locker if the gun were seized for specious reasons - and it may be helpful to not provide the exact component whose installation at a nearby workbench would reconfigure the rifle to AW status.

I think the newer buttons dont fit that tight. If someone knew what they were doing they could swap the BB out for the factory mag button in about 1-2mins.

Good advice on not keeping the offending parts in the vicinity of the non-evil rifle though. :thumbsup:

Untamed1972
04-30-2009, 6:41 PM
[Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or further clarify; my ARs are all reg'd AWs so I don't have BBs.]
.

:p:p:p lucky bast@rd!! LOL

dfletcher
04-30-2009, 11:11 PM
Rumor has it it takes a fair bit of effort (force) to remove a BB device, seems there's a snug fit. [Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or further clarify; my ARs are all reg'd AWs so I don't have BBs.]

Also, the fact that a tool would be required to remove the BB which also requires a tool to remove the mag would seem to be a fairly decent separation barrier.

The only worry again is what happens in a police evidence locker if the gun were seized for specious reasons - and it may be helpful to not provide the exact component whose installation at a nearby workbench would reconfigure the rifle to AW status.

The newer BB just drop out after the nut is unscrewed - pluck it out easily with fingers only. The regular mag release button can usually be put on without having to remove the BHO on the other side. The DPMS tactical BHO has to be removed, but the standard type and some other tactical types are flat enough to allow the mag release lever to be spun.

Seesm
05-01-2009, 12:37 AM
Sounds like I do not even want a pistol upper on my pistol, since it is such a bad thing.