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Waldog
04-29-2009, 8:17 PM
Is it legal to buy a used handgun, not on Kalifornias approved list, from a private party, NOT A DEALER, out of state, and transfer thru the appropriate FFL's into Kalifornia?

You know something from a private seller at a gun show.

Nothing fancy, Something like a collector 1911 or a recent model of anything that is not on Arnold's approved list?

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 8:21 PM
nope.

If it isn't on the roster, you can't currently DROS it from the dealer, unless it is a PPT/cosignment sale.

And a PPT/cosignment is between two CA-residents who both go to the dealer.

bwiese
04-29-2009, 8:23 PM
It is technically *legal* but technically not possible because DOJ does not allow nonresident IDs for PPTs.

We are fighting this, stay tuned.

For now, PPTs of non-Rostered handguns must be between CA residents.

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 8:25 PM
That's not even a california issue so much as a federal issue.

Long guns can be purchased out of state and sent to an FFL in your home state, provided the gun does not violate any laws in the buyers home state.

Handgun purchased MUST be made in your home state.

At least - that's my understanding of this last time I looked into it (not terribly long ago).

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 8:28 PM
Also - out of state private party is also a no-go. Has to go through an FFL in the buyer's home state.

quick clip i found real fast - courtesy of NRA-ILA.


Acquiring Firearms

The following restrictions apply to firearms acquired through purchase, trade, receipt of gifts, or by other means.

From Dealers

Provided that federal law and the laws of both the dealer`s and purchaser`s states and localities are complied with:

An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual`s state of residence
An individual 18 years of age or older may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed dealer in any state
It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm unless the federal firearms licensee receives notice of approval from a prescribed source approving the transfer.

Sale of a firearm by a federally licensed dealer must be documented by a federal form 4473, which identifies and includes other information about the purchaser, and records the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. Sales to an individual of multiple handguns within a five-day period require dealer notification to the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Violations of dealer record keeping requirements are punishable by a penalty of up to $1000 and one year`s imprisonment.

Sales Between Individuals

An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser`s state. Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor`s state of residence.

JDay
04-29-2009, 8:30 PM
Handgun purchased MUST be made in your home state.

At least - that's my understanding of this last time I looked into it (not terribly long ago).

WRONG! Just look at all the handguns being sold on gunbroker and similar sites that ship to other states. Only requirement is that it gets shipped to a FFL in your state.

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 8:34 PM
That's not even a california issue so much as a federal issue.

Long guns can be purchased out of state and sent to an FFL in your home state, provided the gun does not violate any laws in the buyers home state.

Handgun purchased MUST be made in your home state.

At least - that's my understanding of this last time I looked into it (not terribly long ago).

Any handgun or long gun can be purchased out-of-state but must be sent to an in-state FFL to be transfered to the buyer.

Depending on the buyer's and seller's state laws, it may be possible to purchase and take possession of a long gun while out of state. CA does not allow for this, except for limited circumstances. Such as a C&R firearm to a C&R FFL, or a 50+ year old long gun to a non-licensee from an FFL at his licensed premises.

Josh3239
04-29-2009, 8:40 PM
If you had an 03 FFL, could you purchase a C&R handgun out of state in person from an unliscenced individual?

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 8:43 PM
If you had an 03 FFL, could you purchase a C&R handgun out of state in person from an unliscenced individual?yes.

You'd just need to report it when you brought it back to CA. Make sure that it is CA-legal, so no AW pistols and no large-capacity magazines.

JDay
04-29-2009, 9:02 PM
yes.

You'd just need to report it when you brought it back to CA. Make sure that it is CA-legal, so no AW pistols and no large-capacity magazines.

Or take the magazines apart before entering California.

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 9:05 PM
well, if you turned them into kits, then they aren't large-capacity magazines anymore :D

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:11 PM
WRONG! Just look at all the handguns being sold on gunbroker and similar sites that ship to other states. Only requirement is that it gets shipped to a FFL in your state.

I'm talking about in-person, since that seemed to be what OP was getting at. Read the quote of the law from the NRA.

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 9:18 PM
I'm talking about in-person, since that seemed to be what OP was getting at. Read the quote of the law from the NRA.

The OP was not refering to cash-and-carrying a handgun while out of state. He specifically said that it would be transfered through his local FFL.


(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaserís own State?


[B]A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:21 PM
You know something from a private seller at a gun show.


Sales Between Individuals

An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser`s state. Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor`s state of residence.


I'm failing to see where the confusion is here.

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:22 PM
You know something from a private seller at a gun show.

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from [b]the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]


I bolded some slightly different parts.

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 9:28 PM
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source (the private seller) and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

The dealer referred to is the same person in both underlined sections.

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:35 PM
Perhaps I stand corrected - my understanding has always been no out-of-state handgun sales. Witnessed this at Cabela's not even a week ago actually. Guy went in, was looking at glocks, said he couldn't find one in his home state, and they pretty much told him "well - unless you live in NV, we can't help you here. Gotta buy it in your home state."

So if technically it is legal - The question now becomes - are you going to find someone willing to go through that hassle out of state?

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 9:40 PM
Perhaps I stand corrected - my understanding has always been no out-of-state handgun sales. Witnessed this at Cabela's not even a week ago actually. Guy went in, was looking at glocks, said he couldn't find one in his home state, and they pretty much told him "well - unless you live in NV, we can't help you here. Gotta buy it in your home state."
yup, they can't actually transfer the handgun to an out-of-state person, but could, if they wanted to, ship it to the buyer's local FFL. Sounds like they did not want to deal with it.

So if technically it is legal - The question now becomes - are you going to find someone willing to go through that hassle out of state?I thought I remembered someone actually going to a Cabela's and getting them to ship to his CA FFL. Basically its all about money, if you went to a mom-and-pop shop somewhere and found a deal on a CA-rostered handgun, if it was really worth it to you, you could possibly talk the dealer to ship it to your FFL for some money.

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:49 PM
yup, they can't actually transfer the handgun to an out-of-state person, but could, if they wanted to, ship it to the buyer's local FFL. Sounds like they did not want to deal with it.

I thought I remembered someone actually going to a Cabela's and getting them to ship to his CA FFL. Basically its all about money, if you went to a mom-and-pop shop somewhere and found a deal on a CA-rostered handgun, if it was really worth it to you, you could possibly talk the dealer to ship it to your FFL for some money.

Yea - it might just be an issue of getting lucky with which yahoo you get behind the counter.

Which opens up a whole other set of difficulties if you're trying to do this.

Also have to think about:

Is it legal to buy a used handgun, not on Kalifornias approved list, from a private party, NOT A DEALER, out of state, and transfer thru the appropriate FFL's into Kalifornia?


An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser`s state.

Since it would have to be transferred to the FFL - I don't think that would fly in CA, no? I thought for off-rostered guns, FFLs are only allowed to process the private party transfer, not accept transfer to themselves directly.

JDay
04-29-2009, 9:55 PM
Perhaps I stand corrected - my understanding has always been no out-of-state handgun sales. Witnessed this at Cabela's not even a week ago actually. Guy went in, was looking at glocks, said he couldn't find one in his home state, and they pretty much told him "well - unless you live in NV, we can't help you here. Gotta buy it in your home state."

So if technically it is legal - The question now becomes - are you going to find someone willing to go through that hassle out of state?

Was the guy from California? That would explain why they wouldn't sell to him.

Waldog
04-29-2009, 11:18 PM
Let me be more clear: Say you live in Orange Co., Kalifornia. You go visit Uncle Fred in Idaho. While you are there you go to a gun show with Uncle Fred and you find a Fallfield Armory 1911 in 40 S&W that is used and being sold by a private seller. You agree on a price. The 40 Fairfield is not on Kalifornia's approved list. Can you take the gun to a Idaho FFL, who then ships the gun to a Kalifornia FFL to transfer ownership to you. This is a private buy between two guys; neither of which are DEALERS. Can you do this?

Josh3239
04-29-2009, 11:26 PM
Sounds to me like it is still an out of state transfer. A PPT requires both parties to be there during the DROS process.

Btw, ke6guj. Thanks for answering my question. I already have my 03 forms, but don't turn 21 until about 3 weeks.

DDT
04-29-2009, 11:30 PM
Let me be more clear: Say you live in Orange Co., Kalifornia. You go visit Uncle Fred in Idaho. While you are there you go to a gun show with Uncle Fred and you find a Fallfield Armory 1911 in 40 S&W that is used and being sold by a private seller. You agree on a price. The 40 Fairfield is not on Kalifornia's approved list. Can you take the gun to a Idaho FFL, who then ships the gun to a Kalifornia FFL to transfer ownership to you. This is a private buy between two guys; neither of which are DEALERS. Can you do this?

Not at this time. California's PPT laws are a bit vacant on this issue. Three is nothing in the law that says the person cannot ship to a California FFL directly (not via Idaho FFL) and then have the California FFL do a PPT to the buyer.

There is every reason to believe that if the Idaho resident brings the gun to CA personally and shows up at the CA FFL he SHOULD be able to do a PPT transfer. The problem is that the BoF doesn't allow for this type of transfer in the computer software the dealers must use so you CAN'T do it physically but the law says you can.

cousinkix1953
04-29-2009, 11:49 PM
Perhaps I stand corrected - my understanding has always been no out-of-state handgun sales. Witnessed this at Cabela's not even a week ago actually. Guy went in, was looking at glocks, said he couldn't find one in his home state, and they pretty much told him "well - unless you live in NV, we can't help you here. Gotta buy it in your home state."

So if technically it is legal - The question now becomes - are you going to find someone willing to go through that hassle out of state?
True except for the C&Rs if you have the 03 license or a bonafide 100+ year old antique. Forget the Glock; don't even ask...

Quiet
04-30-2009, 5:08 AM
Let me be more clear: Say you live in Orange Co., Kalifornia. You go visit Uncle Fred in Idaho. While you are there you go to a gun show with Uncle Fred and you find a Fallfield Armory 1911 in 40 S&W that is used and being sold by a private seller. You agree on a price. The 40 Fairfield is not on Kalifornia's approved list. Can you take the gun to a Idaho FFL, who then ships the gun to a Kalifornia FFL to transfer ownership to you. This is a private buy between two guys; neither of which are DEALERS. Can you do this?

Currently, no you can not do this.

Since, it's coming from out-of-state, it will need to be on the approved list.

Waldog
04-30-2009, 7:20 AM
Ok! Thanks for the great info guys!!

eltee
04-30-2009, 8:54 AM
So, back to those dual state residents. Guy has a "Seasonal Resident" ID card issued by Nevada DMV and a Nevada CCW. He buys a handgun Face-to-face, private party in Nevada that is not rostered. He is also a resident in California with a CDL. He brings the handgun into California (nothing AWish) and wants to PPT it through an FFL to another Californian. Would this get DROS'd w/o issue or would this be seen as a violation of some law?

Sinixstar
04-30-2009, 9:27 AM
So, back to those dual state residents. Guy has a "Seasonal Resident" ID card issued by Nevada DMV and a Nevada CCW. He buys a handgun Face-to-face, private party in Nevada that is not rostered. He is also a resident in California with a CDL. He brings the handgun into California (nothing AWish) and wants to PPT it through an FFL to another Californian. Would this get DROS'd w/o issue or would this be seen as a violation of some law?

If he bought it in NV as a resident - would he even need to PPT it in CA, or would it simply be a matter of declaring it as a personal import?

dustoff31
04-30-2009, 9:51 AM
So, back to those dual state residents. Guy has a "Seasonal Resident" ID card issued by Nevada DMV and a Nevada CCW. He buys a handgun Face-to-face, private party in Nevada that is not rostered. He is also a resident in California with a CDL. He brings the handgun into California (nothing AWish) and wants to PPT it through an FFL to another Californian. Would this get DROS'd w/o issue or would this be seen as a violation of some law?

The only potential issue I see might be whether or not the handgun is registered in CA to the dual stater. He should register it in CA as a personal importer, but he is given 60 days to do that.

If he tried to PPT before the end of 60 days, that should explain it, if he didn't register and tried to transfer it after 60 days, maybe a problem.

Psy Crow
04-30-2009, 6:31 PM
How would this work for the PPT of an out-of-CA AK/AR style rifle that is not on the banned list(s) and is compliant with CA law in terms of SB23 (BB, mag lock, etc.)?

Can the person in the Free State ship the rifle directly to a CA FFL, or does that person need to have their local FFL ship to the CA FFL?

Are there any FFLs in the SF Bay Area that do these sorts of transfers?

Assuming this can be done, is there any paperwork other than normal DROS that needs to be filed?

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 6:45 PM
If its from out-of-state, then it isn't a PPT.

It would be just a transfer, in which the FFL can charge what ever fee he wishes. On a true PPT, he is limited to $35.

The seller can ship to an FFL in any state, without needing to use an FFL to ship it to the receiving FFL. However, check with your FFL because some FFLs have business policies in which they will only accept shipments from other FFLs, even though it is not required by law.

rivviepop
05-20-2009, 3:13 PM
Glad I found this thread -- if I am buying a handgun on the list but it is Used condition, but the seller is a FFL -- does that count as some sort of interstate consignment (no 30-day), or do I fall into the 30-day rule and it's considered "application to purchase"? If the seller is a private party, is it the same as if they were a FFL for this 30-day purchase?

I'm not sure if 30-day applies only to New handguns or Used also, FFL or not, etc. when they're coming from out of state but on our list.

Librarian
05-20-2009, 4:43 PM
Glad I found this thread -- if I am buying a handgun on the list but it is Used condition, but the seller is a FFL -- does that count as some sort of interstate consignment (no 30-day), or do I fall into the 30-day rule and it's considered "application to purchase"? If the seller is a private party, is it the same as if they were a FFL for this 30-day purchase?

I'm not sure if 30-day applies only to New handguns or Used also, FFL or not, etc. when they're coming from out of state but on our list.

Generally, 30-day rule applies to handguns NOT sold PPT.

New/Used is not significant for that.

Never heard of an 'interstate consignment'.

B Strong
05-20-2009, 5:07 PM
Is it legal to buy a used handgun, not on Kalifornias approved list, from a private party, NOT A DEALER, out of state, and transfer thru the appropriate FFL's into Kalifornia?

You know something from a private seller at a gun show.

Nothing fancy, Something like a collector 1911 or a recent model of anything that is not on Arnold's approved list?


Sorry guy, outside of C & R listed handguns, single action revolvers, and single shot pistols you're out of luck.

wildhawker
05-20-2009, 5:21 PM
Why must we so excessively use the not-so-cute-anymore "Kalifornia" spelling of this state?

wildhawker
05-20-2009, 5:30 PM
How would this work for the PPT of an out-of-CA AK/AR style rifle that is not on the banned list(s) and is compliant with CA law in terms of SB23 (BB, mag lock, etc.)?

Can the person in the Free State ship the rifle directly to a CA FFL, or does that person need to have their local FFL ship to the CA FFL?

Are there any FFLs in the SF Bay Area that do these sorts of transfers?

Assuming this can be done, is there any paperwork other than normal DROS that needs to be filed?

Firearms which are or have have been rendered CA-compliant can be shipped directly to the buyer's FFL for transfer. PPT process does not (currently) apply unless both buyer and seller are present.

There are many FFLs who transfer OLL-based firearms in the Bay Area; please see this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=63050).

Further information is available by using Oak's very handy Google search tool (http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk); also, see CGF Wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).