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bubbapug1
04-29-2009, 5:44 PM
I just bought a 9mm 7.5" ar upper and it will arrive in one week.

I was wondering what my options are for this upper? I know I can make a single shot AR 9mm pistol with it (big deal) but is it possible to buy an ATF stamp and make it into a short AR rifle?

I don't want to run amuck of the DOJ or the ATF as prison time is not my idea of a vacation.

Has anyone built anything with a 7.5" upper out these who can tell me what options I have...if any?

xLusi0n
04-29-2009, 5:46 PM
SBR: Not if you're in CA...well, you can try to apply for it with DOJ first...but ft chance.

You can make it a pistol, if it's on a registered AR Pistol

Rukus
04-29-2009, 5:49 PM
Well first off, If you dont have a pistol lower already AND already have rifle lowers you are not really in a good way. I believe Federal Constructive Possession laws apply to SBR and having a short barrel with nothing but rifle lowers to put it on doesn't seem like a good idea to many...YMMV

On the other hand with a pistol lower, It can be DROS'd as a single shot and later converted to a semi-auto w/ locked 10 round mag of course...

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 5:49 PM
A pistol is basically your only option. YOu won't get an SBR tax stamp on it unless you can geta CADOJ dangerous weapons permit (unobtainium). YOu could AOW witha VFG, but you still don't get a shoulder stock.

And you better have a pistol lower before that upper shows up, or not have any rifle lowers lest you set yourself up for a federal and state SBR constructive possession bust.

DJMAN
04-29-2009, 5:49 PM
Do not keep it at your house with your non pistol lowers.

unclejesse
04-29-2009, 5:53 PM
+1 make sure you have a pistol lower

bubbapug1
04-29-2009, 6:04 PM
If you own an ar rifle you have an AR upper...does that mean no matter what you can get busted for constructive possession, or does the upper on the rifle lower make it exempt? its kind of a quandry if thats true.

I talked with bright spot who told me you can't just buy a stripped pistol lower and take it home after the dros, they said you have to bring in the upper first, build the lower on site, attach the two, put in a BB with a one shot mag, and DROS it as a single shot, and than take it home...seems a bit nuts, but thats their take on it.

Quiet
04-29-2009, 6:16 PM
If you have an AR upper with a barrel length less than 16", you need to have an AR lower (4473'd/DROS'd as a pistol).

If you have an AR upper with a barrel length less than 16" and only have AR "rifle" lowers, then you can get busted for an unregistered SBR.

The Feds and CA both have constructive possession laws in regards to NFA firearms.


Penal Code 12020
(c)(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

wildhawker
04-29-2009, 6:19 PM
If you own an ar rifle you have an AR upper...does that mean no matter what you can get busted for constructive possession, or does the upper on the rifle lower make it exempt? its kind of a quandry if thats true.

I talked with bright spot who told me you can't just buy a stripped pistol lower and take it home after the dros, they said you have to bring in the upper first, build the lower on site, attach the two, put in a BB with a one shot mag, and DROS it as a single shot, and than take it home...seems a bit nuts, but thats their take on it.

As many here have suggested (or implied), you would be wise to delay your upper purchase (and possession) until after taking possession of an AR pistol lower or AR pistol.

bwiese
04-29-2009, 6:25 PM
Do not keep it at your house with your non pistol lowers.

Don't even OWN ONE ANYWHERE IN CA if you also own any AR rifles or rifle lowers.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-29-2009, 6:31 PM
Don't even OWN ONE ANYWHERE IN CA if you also own any AR rifles or rifle lowers.

Do you mean to say that even if you have a legal configuration for that shorty barreled upper -- a rifle AR as well as a pistol AR -- you're still in violation in CA?

bubbapug1
04-29-2009, 6:34 PM
yea, that seems a little bit contradictory to me too...is it right or is it fud?

yellowfin
04-29-2009, 7:10 PM
I guess we need shall issue before challenging the DW permit system, eh?

Rukus
04-29-2009, 7:33 PM
Do you mean to say that even if you have a legal configuration for that shorty barreled upper -- a rifle AR as well as a pistol AR -- you're still in violation in CA?

I believe he means if you only have rifle lowers you should not OWN a shorty upper. Of course if you have a pistol lower it wouldn't apply to you. What you may want to do if the upper is in the mail is sell it to a friend who owns no rifle lowers. Document the sale with a handwritten note that both people sign. He keeps the upper at his place. Once you have that pistol lower built and DROS'd your friend can sell it back to you. But just having it around leaves it in your "possession". I cant remember where it was from but I remember reading that possession means it is "readily accesible to you" and this could mean even at another house you may own. If you don't have keys to his place its not readily accesible to you (you cant get it anytime you want). Just my opinion though....

slappomatt
04-29-2009, 8:02 PM
what about a stripped barrel? is that still constructive? This is so retarded!

Rukus
04-29-2009, 8:05 PM
I would imagine so. a SBR barrel could be swapped out on your legal barreled upper...

bubbapug1
05-01-2009, 6:11 PM
btt - still looking for a solid answer here....not just opinions.

Cali-V
05-01-2009, 6:37 PM
btt - still looking for a solid answer here....not just opinions.

If you own an AR lower and do not own an AR pistol or a stamp for an AR based SBR, it is a federal offense to own an AR barrel less than 16"...

If you want to build an AR Pistol have the seller send the pistol barrel to the 07 FFL who is going to build the pistol...
you do not want to take possession of the short barrel until after you own the AR Pistol...

Research Constructive Possession (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk&ie=UTF-8&q=constructive+possession&sa=Search), Handgun Safety Testing - See Single Shot Exemption - 12133. (b) (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php)

DJ Skillz
05-01-2009, 7:07 PM
Can any stripped lower be DROS'd as a pistol lower?

wildhawker
05-01-2009, 8:11 PM
Can any stripped lower be DROS'd as a pistol lower?

Not currently here in CA. Here's a related search (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop-np&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ACalguns%2520Cust om%2520Search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F coop%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Fcustom_search_sm.gif%3 BLH%3A65%3BLP%3A1%3BVLC%3A%23551a8b%3BGFNT%3A%2366 6666%3BDIV%3A%23cccccc%3B&adkw=AELymgUaEzhOFMMYrjcNPLMMjCYgU7rw0FxuZWYGixYpH 9fEeu2P22EAYGaRVpdXHyGoMhdEvFUAh5v1CIRzF9CGtG62jSW sGA0Fuqen85ReOfeazT7wMeA&boostcse=0&q=AR+Pistol+DROS&cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk).

DJ Skillz
05-01-2009, 8:32 PM
Not currently here in CA. Here's a related search (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop-np&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ACalguns%2520Cust om%2520Search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F coop%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Fcustom_search_sm.gif%3 BLH%3A65%3BLP%3A1%3BVLC%3A%23551a8b%3BGFNT%3A%2366 6666%3BDIV%3A%23cccccc%3B&adkw=AELymgUaEzhOFMMYrjcNPLMMjCYgU7rw0FxuZWYGixYpH 9fEeu2P22EAYGaRVpdXHyGoMhdEvFUAh5v1CIRzF9CGtG62jSW sGA0Fuqen85ReOfeazT7wMeA&boostcse=0&q=AR+Pistol+DROS&cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk).

Got my answer. Thanks. I forgot about the handgun roster there for a sec.

DDT
05-01-2009, 9:32 PM
I talked with bright spot who told me you can't just buy a stripped pistol lower and take it home after the dros, they said you have to bring in the upper first, build the lower on site, attach the two, put in a BB with a one shot mag, and DROS it as a single shot, and than take it home...seems a bit nuts, but thats their take on it.

This is correct, there is no way to DROS a non-handgun pistol frame in CA at this time. This is what NeRF is trying to solve. If you bring in a pistol frame it has to be a complete pistol. For a pistol to be roster exempt it must be single shot or single action revolver. This is the reason you have to build up the AR lower AND supply a zero-round magazine to DROS it.