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daves_daily
04-28-2009, 10:28 PM
I apologize for bringing this up, again. I say again because I realize there are some old threads on this, there has to be. The problem is, the laws change and I'm not sure that anything older than last week is current. I read a string that quoted an exception to the requirement to register, or I should say transfer, a handgun that is inherited from an immediate family member. That basically I can go bring them back and file an interfamilial handgun transfer form? The definition of immediate family is a little shady. But, I'm going to assume that the phrase "parent and child" means that the children can hand guns down to each other, the operative word being "and."

That's all well and good, but what if the handgun isn't on the approved DoJ list? Not a high cap auto, a Model 60 Smith. Does that matter. Why CA doesn't just adopt the federal behavior... ah, what's the use. I really do not like living here. My wife is from here and I put up with it but it'll never be home. We've discussed it, it's no secret. Doesn't make her happy, but neither am I, and that's life.

Off topic, I'm 55, and I'll tell you something if you're in your under 50. Time will come that you will stop looking back because the past has no purchase on the present or the future. That's not to say that memories don't matter, they're pretty much all there is, which is why I'm glad I did what I did in life. What I'm saying is there comes a time when in your daily life you aren't looking back to move ahead. The funny thing about that is you will not be prepared for what you are about to peer into by looking ahead like that. I realize this makes not sense, but it will.

Sort of related, because while I REALLY do not like living in California as opposed to say, America, it doesn't matter. Family matters and so I make my peace with it. But if I can't inherit this Model 60 that's really going to twist my shorts in a wad.

TheBundo
04-28-2009, 10:35 PM
Children can NOT hand DOWN guns to each other. By law, or by definition. You might be able to get it using a trust, or other legal ways

Librarian
04-28-2009, 10:43 PM
Answers embedded, bold.

I apologize for bringing this up, again. I say again because I realize there are some old threads on this, there has to be. The problem is, the laws change and I'm not sure that anything older than last week is current.

Skeptic!
In CA, laws generally change effective Jan 1. Things deemed "urgent" can take effect sooner, but nothing like that has happened with gun laws recently.

I read a string that quoted an exception to the requirement to register, or I should say transfer, a handgun that is inherited from an immediate family member. That basically I can go bring them back and file an interfamilial handgun transfer form? The definition of immediate family is a little shady. But, I'm going to assume that the phrase "parent and child" means that the children can hand guns down to each other, the operative word being "and."

Within California, an intrafamilial transfer is routine, and the Roster does not apply. "Family" is parent/child or grandparent/grandchild, both directions - see
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members
Brother-to-sister does not work.

Out of CA into CA is actually simple for inheritance between the right family members; Feds do not require FFL and CA does not require FFL. You can just pick them up.

Handguns need the Oplaw form. Long guns need nothing.

An interstate transfer that's not intrafamily inheritance almost always has to go through a CA FFL.



That's all well and good, but what if the handgun isn't on the approved DoJ list? Not a high cap auto, a Model 60 Smith. Does that matter.

Nope, doesn't matter. Intrafamilial is exempt from the Roster.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-28-2009, 11:40 PM
I am of the opinion that, at the minimum, you can inherit guns from anybody out of state if you go out of state to pick them up. They don't need to be a "family" member as required under California law. The Federal laws on firearms inheritence don't require that you follow all the laws of your State in acquiring the firearms. Federal law only requires that the firearms be legal for you to own in your State. And California law doesn't require all handguns to be registered. It only requires certain (most) ways of acquiring handguns to be reported.

If such inheritences from non-family members can be considered "operations of law" under California law, then you can even have them shipped into California and the handguns would need to be reported.

If such inheritences from non-family members are not considered "operations of law" under California law, then you have to go out of state to pick them up, BUT then the handguns would not need to be reported, unless you fit the legal definition of Person Handgun Importer.

Librarian
04-29-2009, 11:56 AM
I am of the opinion that, at the minimum, you can inherit guns from anybody out of state if you go out of state to pick them up. They don't need to be a "family" member as required under California law. The Federal laws on firearms inheritence don't require that you follow all the laws of your State in acquiring the firearms. Federal law only requires that the firearms be legal for you to own in your State. And California law doesn't require all handguns to be registered. It only requires certain (most) ways of acquiring handguns to be reported.

If such inheritences from non-family members can be considered "operations of law" under California law, then you can even have them shipped into California and the handguns would need to be reported.

If such inheritences from non-family members are not considered "operations of law" under California law, then you have to go out of state to pick them up, BUT then the handguns would not need to be reported, unless you fit the legal definition of Person Handgun Importer.

I tend to agree this doesn't look like a problem, but I'd rather let a lawyer stick out his neck/license to make the argument.

In a world where common sense were once again available, this would be obvious. California gun laws and enforcement are markedly lacking in common sense (for example, the 14 year old just picked up for walking his .22 rifle past a school).

jrcarr2
04-29-2009, 12:48 PM
Just want to clarify something. Say I go back to NM to visit my folks. My dad decides that he does not need his S&W M&P in .357 sig and wants to give it to me. I simply bring the handgun back with me and fill out the intrafamily transfer form (plus fees). Is this correct? Or am I mistaken?

Librarian
04-29-2009, 1:13 PM
Just want to clarify something. Say I go back to NM to visit my folks. My dad decides that he does not need his S&W M&P in .357 sig and wants to give it to me. I simply bring the handgun back with me and fill out the intrafamily transfer form (plus fees). Is this correct? Or am I mistaken?

Mistaken.

Feds are pretty lenient about inheritance (as, IMO,they should be), but less so for other kinds of transfers.

In this case, even father to son, it turns out to be an Interstate Transfer, and must go through an FFL in the state of residence of the receiver.

Dad can bring it with him to CA and both of you go to a dealer to to the transfer, or Dad can ship it to a willing FFL in CA; in both cases, FFL will charge for an interstate transfer. You will fill out 4473, DROS, wait 10 days, and have an HSC and a lock, and do the safe handling demo before you pick up the gun. Dad will stand by and goggle at California laws.

Roster does not apply to handgun transfers parent/child, but the 10-round magazine limit does apply.

glock_this
04-29-2009, 1:30 PM
Librarian -

you tell the OP about bringing in a handgun from out of state to his state that is inherited and doing a interfamilial transfer: "Out of CA into CA is actually simple for inheritance between the right family members; Feds do not require FFL and CA does not require FFL. You can just pick them up."

but then, to jrcarr2, who seems to essentially asks the same question (out of state into CA, handgun, interfamilial) you go on to say "out of CA into CA" inheritance does require the whole FFL routine..

confusing :confused:

jrcarr2
04-29-2009, 1:32 PM
Cool thanks. He is likely coming here to visit anyway, I'll have to remind him to leave any "high" :rolleyes: capacity mags at home.

He's too fond of NM gun laws to move out here lol.

jrcarr2
04-29-2009, 1:34 PM
but then, to jrcarr2, who seems to essentially asks the same question (out of state into CA, handgun, interfamilial) you go on to say "out of CA into CA" inheritance does require the whole FFL routine..

confusing :confused:

Perhaps I can help. Since my dad is not dead and is giving me the firearm I don't think it qualifies as an "inheritance" so to speak.

glock_this
04-29-2009, 1:36 PM
Perhaps I can help. Since my dad is not dead and is giving me the firearm I don't think it qualifies as an "inheritance" so to speak.

ahhh... missed the subtlety of that is in fact 'the' difference

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 1:36 PM
that is because the OP and Jrcarr2 are talking about 2 different situations. The OP was talking about an inheritance, and jrcarr2 was just talking about a transfer between father and son. Federal law treats the two situations differently, so different answers.

edit: too slow

glock_this
04-29-2009, 1:41 PM
This may sound stupid, but I did not assume "inheritance" implied the person was dead. You may think that obvious, but "inheritance" can be defined as "to have in turn or receive as if from an ancestor" or "To inherit something is to get it from one's ancestors through legal succession" - which does not mention the person must be dead to "inherit" it. Heck, I know, for example, people that have "inherited" weddings rings from the living. maybe semantics and just wrong choice of words.

jrcarr2
04-29-2009, 1:50 PM
I believe it has to do with the legal definition in context.

Librarian
04-29-2009, 1:51 PM
This may sound stupid, but I did not assume "inheritance" implied the person was dead. You may think that obvious, but "inheritance" can be defined as "to have in turn or receive as if from an ancestor" or "To inherit something is to get it from one's ancestors through legal succession" - which does not mention the person must be dead to "inherit" it.
Better to use 'donor is deceased' for inheritance; from a living person, it's usually a gift, and unfortunately is handled differently.

See, for example this bit of PC 12078 (c) (1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by
gift,
bequest,
intestate succession,
or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family
CA thinks a gift is different from either a bequest (in a will) or intestate succession (no will - usually distribution according to Probate Code).

ke6guj
04-29-2009, 1:51 PM
Here's the actual code.

27 CFR Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

Your arguement has been brought up before, but IIRC, it was determined that it only applied when someone died.

glock_this
04-29-2009, 1:56 PM
SO.. if my dad from Midwest is alive and wanted to give me a gun it is considered more of a "gift" and thus, to bring it into CA requires an FFL transfer blah blah

BUT, if my grandfather from Midwest died and the gun is passed on to me I can go just pick it up, bring it into CA, do the DOJ paperwork, pay the fee and viola.. no FFL transfer blah blah

bwiese
04-29-2009, 2:00 PM
I read a string that quoted an exception to the requirement to register, or I
should say transfer, a handgun that is inherited from an immediate family
member. That basically I can go bring them back and file an interfamilial
handgun transfer form? The definition of immediate family is a little shady.
But, I'm going to assume that the phrase "parent and child" means that the
children can hand guns down to each other, the operative word being "and."

For 'intrafamilal transfer' between live parties, the only authorized parties are 'lineal' set of grandparent, parent, child, grandchild per 12078PC definition (forget the subsection, probably (c). )

There is NO Federal exemption for intrafamily transfers of guns and thus a CA resident receiving a gun via intrafamily xfer must receive it thru CA FFL - which means DROS + 10 day wait etc. However, CA iteself doesn't care about Rostering status since such transfers within CA are Roster exempt (and even FFL-exempt if within CA). So use of a FFL is done to keep the FEDS happy.

If the transferring intrafamily parties are all CA residents, then the guns can move directly from, say, parent to child. The child must hold a valid HSC card. Handguns must be reported to within 30 days with $19 fee via "Intrafamily Handgun Transfer" form from DOJ website; long guns do not require such paperwork: go shoot 'em.




That's all well and good, but what if the handgun isn't on the approved DoJ list? Not a high cap auto, a Model 60 Smith.

That's fine - a non-Rostered handgun can indeed be received via intrafamily transfer or inheritance.


BTW we are making progress. We expect the Roster to die in a vivid fashion, shortly ;)

Librarian
04-29-2009, 2:33 PM
SO.. if my dad from Midwest is alive and wanted to give me a gun it is considered more of a "gift" and thus, to bring it into CA requires an FFL transfer blah blah

BUT, if my grandfather from Midwest died and the gun is passed on to me I can go just pick it up, bring it into CA, do the DOJ paperwork, pay the fee and viola.. no FFL transfer blah blah

That's an accurate summary. Including the obligatory "blah, blah" :)

bwiese
04-29-2009, 2:35 PM
SO.. if my dad from Midwest is alive and wanted to give me a gun
it is considered more of a "gift" and thus, to bring it into CA requires
an FFL transfer blah blah

Correct. There is NO *Federal* intrafamiliar exemption. It's a gun crossing state lines btwn residents of different states so an FFL is required in the recipient's state.


BUT, if my grandfather from Midwest died and the gun is passed on
to me I can go just pick it up, bring it into CA, do the DOJ paperwork,
pay the fee and viola.. no FFL transfer blah blah

Yes, because there is both a CA as well as *FEDERAL* exemption for inheritance/bequest. You can go pick it up/have it sent/delivered by executor. If it's rifle, no paperwork needed. If it's a handgun you need a valid HSC card and file DOJ Operation of Law paperwork.

Malthusian
05-24-2010, 1:27 PM
Correct. There is NO *Federal* intrafamiliar exemption. It's a gun crossing state lines btwn residents of different states so an FFL is required in the recipient's state.



Yes, because there is both a CA as well as *FEDERAL* exemption for inheritance/bequest. You can go pick it up/have it sent/delivered by executor. If it's rifle, no paperwork needed. If it's a handgun you need a valid HSC card and file DOJ Operation of Law paperwork.



Sent? My dad has several legal off roster handguns. Even though I would be receiving them as an inheritance, if I sent them they would have to go to a CA FFL, Right? The FFL would try and charge me DROS fees.

However if I drove over and picked them up. I would just fill out the DOJ transfer form and pay $19 per gun. No Limit? No 10 day wait?.. Right

bwiese
05-24-2010, 2:09 PM
Sent? My dad has several legal off roster handguns. Even though I would be receiving them as an inheritance, if I sent them they would have to go to a CA FFL, Right?

In theory, no. It would be lawful for the executor of your late dad's estate to send them, and for you to receive them.

Practically, probably yes. Sending a gun to a non-FFL would require a lot of explaining to a likely recalcitrant UPS clerk who might think you were trying to "pull something funny with a gun".

One handgun I was bequeathed to me (by the late great Calgunner Parag Patel) was in Colorado. I couldn't travel there at the time, and it wasn't worth the grief to try to figure out for the family how to ship it to me - I just had it shipped to my FFL and paid the fees/etc.

The FFL would try and charge me DROS fees.

As well he should, since it ran thru his system and he's required to follow rules to deliver a gun to you - even though you could've picked it up yourself. Not only that, the fees he charges for this would not be restricted to the $35 PPT fee.

However if I drove over and picked them up. I would just fill out the DOJ transfer form and pay $19 per gun. No Limit? No 10 day wait?.. Right

Correct. You have to figure the cost & time of travel, vs. the cost of shipment/DROS/FFL fees.

SoCal Gunner
05-24-2010, 2:16 PM
OK, so how do I go about doing this? Probate about to end in another state (IL) and items include a revolver, semi-auto handgun, and a rifle. Do I just fly home with them? Ship them to myself? What needs a form and what doesn't and who gets it? Do I need a Death Certificate? Firearms were not listed specifically in the will.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-24-2010, 7:43 PM
OK, so how do I go about doing this? Probate about to end in another state (IL) and items include a revolver, semi-auto handgun, and a rifle. Do I just fly home with them? Ship them to myself? What needs a form and what doesn't and who gets it? Do I need a Death Certificate? Firearms were not listed specifically in the will.

You can fly home with them or they can be shipped directly to you. If they are shipped, then UPS is the only carrier who's rules allow you to ship handguns without an FFL being involved. But there is no guaranteeing that the particular UPS clerk that you deal with will know this, so flying them home in your checked baggage is recommended.

If any of the firearms include a "large capacity" magazine (over 10 rounds) then you can't bring those magazines into California. If any of the firearms are "assault weapons" under California law then you can't bring those in either.

Once you get back to California with the guns, you need to send in the "Operation of Law/Intra-familial Handgun Report", but only for the handguns. It costs $19.

raycm2
05-24-2010, 8:30 PM
Think of it this way:

If the transfer is from a living qualified relative it is a transfer between two people in different states and requires an FFL. If the transfer is from the estate of a qualified relative, then by law the forearm is already yours and there is no requirement for you to go through an FFL to move your firearm across state lines.

SoCal Gunner
05-25-2010, 4:46 AM
You can fly home with them or they can be shipped directly to you. If they are shipped, then UPS is the only carrier who's rules allow you to ship handguns without an FFL being involved. But there is no guaranteeing that the particular UPS clerk that you deal with will know this, so flying them home in your checked baggage is recommended.

If any of the firearms include a "large capacity" magazine (over 10 rounds) then you can't bring those magazines into California. If any of the firearms are "assault weapons" under California law then you can't bring those in either.

Once you get back to California with the guns, you need to send in the "Operation of Law/Intra-familial Handgun Report", but only for the handguns. It costs $19.

Thanks for the response.