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remington
04-28-2009, 9:11 PM
I may be off base and I am sure that I will be corrected if that proves to be true.

During the recent assault on the 2A for all of us in California, I have not seen any thing from the NRA. It is true, that I get emails as we all do stating an "alert" and to contact your representitive's. But what ACTUAL representation do we have in the State Capital? Is a NRA representitive going to show up for AB962? Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but we ARE the battleground of the nation. While they show and state "victory" in some small town in the midewest, where are they for us in CA? If the battles are won or lost in this state it is an indication of what can happen in the rest of the nation as we know.

Your thoughts please....

nick
04-28-2009, 9:17 PM
:popcorn:

Shane916
04-28-2009, 9:18 PM
I think a common misconception is that if we don't hear about the NRA, then they aren't doing anything productive.

I am under the faithful impression that they act "behind the scenes" and do a lot of their work out of the public's eye. :)

oaklander
04-28-2009, 9:22 PM
I think a common misconception is that if we don't hear about the NRA, then they aren't doing anything productive.

I am under the faithful impression that they act "behind the scenes" and do a lot of their work out of the public's eye. :)

Correct.

mblat
04-28-2009, 9:24 PM
Couple things.
I am beginning to understand why people getting tired and living the board. I have read this exact post probably 20 times in the last six month.
Second I suggest that mods will create "Ready Answers" area, so when post like this will pop-up again in the next couple weeks or so we can just copy and paste link to the answer.

jamesob
04-28-2009, 9:26 PM
they do more for other states for sure. if they would take more money and concentrate on this state more, thing would move faster here. people will say they do more than what people realize and it may be true but from what i see ,it isn't enough.

aplinker
04-28-2009, 9:26 PM
Where are our special forces and Navy SEALs? Other than this recent sniper work on pirates we never hear about them. I think they aren't doing anything. There's a war going on and yet we hear nothing about what they do!

Hopi
04-28-2009, 9:27 PM
Where are our special forces and Navy SEALs? Other than this recent sniper work on pirates we never hear about them. I think they aren't doing anything. There's a war going on and yet we hear nothing about what they do!

Bingo.

remington
04-28-2009, 9:29 PM
Someone prove it please.

nick
04-28-2009, 9:31 PM
Couple things.
I am beginning to understand why people getting tired and living the board. I have read this exact post probably 20 times in the last six month.
Second I suggest that mods will create "Ready Answers" area, so when post like this will pop-up again in the next couple weeks or so we can just copy and paste link to the answer.

Of course, it would still require reading that section... :)

oaklander
04-28-2009, 9:34 PM
they do more for other states for sure. if they would take more money and concentrate on this state more, thing would move faster here. people will say they do more than what people realize and it may be true but from what i see ,it isn't enough.

Not true - NRA does a LOT in this state. For example, we are the only state where the NRA has a full-time lobbyist.

The NRA focuses on California because our laws often get copied in other states - i.e. gun control "ideas" get hatched here.

gcvt
04-28-2009, 9:37 PM
They're out there :hide:

I prefer they go stealth. Don't want to tip your hand.

GM4spd
04-28-2009, 9:38 PM
Not true - NRA does a LOT in this state. For example, we are the only state where the NRA has a full-time lobbyist.

The NRA focuses on California because our laws often get copied in other states - i.e. gun control "ideas" get hatched here.


Good point! Pete

M. Sage
04-28-2009, 9:55 PM
Someone prove it please.

Prove they aren't. Running with the "is SOCOM doing anything" analogy: prove SF, SEALs, etc. are doing something.

I can't prove it, but before I moved I had the chance to chat with high-level NRA staff, and found out a lot of what goes on behind the scenes.

AFAIK, CA is the only state to have its own full-time NRA lobbyist for the legislature.

Shane916
04-28-2009, 10:01 PM
Someone prove it please.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29953973/

The influence game: NRA sways policy agenda
Powerful gun lobby's behind-the-scenes clout shapes D.C. voting rights bill

Legasat
04-28-2009, 10:09 PM
I think a common misconception is that if we don't hear about the NRA, then they aren't doing anything productive.

I am under the faithful impression that they act "behind the scenes" and do a lot of their work out of the public's eye. :)

I can only hope ...

dwtt
04-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Someone prove it please.

I have one question: Are you really a member of the NRA?

If you are really a member of the NRA, you can prove it to yourself by attending your local member's council's monthly meeting. You do know there are local grass roots member's councils don't you?

Sinixstar
04-28-2009, 10:15 PM
They don't want to do too much work or make too much progress.

Having a bogeyman to scare all the people in all the other states is a really effective tool. "You don't want to end up like California" has surely raised millions upon millions of dollars. That doesn't work if we have things like "shall issue".

Or maybe i'm just a really cynical bastard.

hoffmang
04-28-2009, 10:28 PM
The NRA spends outsize dollars on California compared to how sadly few NRA members are from California.

NRA just won a settlement with the SF Housing Authority. I'm aware of at least two cases that are coming from NRA in California in the next couple of weeks.

NRA is also extremely active in Sacramento. However, much of their job is to force bills to go away - a thing that you get no credit for.

Has anyone noticed how many bad CA Anti Gun bills just "disappeared?" Wonder why that happened?

-Gene

remington
04-28-2009, 10:31 PM
Yes I'm a member, #144851###. You mean the well communicated local meetings? Really? Of the 53 EVC's available in this state 16 are vacant or 30%.

Im not bashing the NRA, just wondering where they are. Are any EVC's members here, if so speak up. I think they gave up on the state, thats just my opinion and there really is not any recent legislation to demostrate otherwise. CG and CRPA seem to get very involved and I if I ever got into trouble related to firearms, CG is whom I would turn to. There is plenty of evidence that can be found in other states or on the national scene, just not California. Lets see if the NRA is up in Sac on June 17th to counter the Brady Bunch. Lets see if they rally us...they wont. CG and the CRPA will make the effort.

I will continue to pay my donations as I have, as my son does, as my daughter does to support 2A nationwide.

krazz
04-28-2009, 10:44 PM
I'm a NRA member, have been for a long time, but just for the stickers. I REALLY like the GOA, JPFO, CalGOA.

Remember, the NRA & CPRA had NOTHING to do or say about Heller until it was won...period. That left a nice little vomit taste in my mouth.

rkt88edmo
04-28-2009, 10:48 PM
Couple things.
I am beginning to understand why people getting tired and living the board. I have read this exact post probably 20 times in the last six month.
Second I suggest that mods will create "Ready Answers" area, so when post like this will pop-up again in the next couple weeks or so we can just copy and paste link to the answer.

We do have such an area, all it needs is volunteers to write nice concise and well written posts to address the issues.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-28-2009, 10:49 PM
I'm a NRA member, have been for a long time, but just for the stickers. I REALLY like the GOA, JPFO, CalGOA.

What is your all time favorite piece of legislation that the GOA has gotten enacted?

adamsreeftank
04-28-2009, 10:51 PM
If you doubt the value of the NRA, look at some of the huge legal filings they made and argued on behalf of CA gun owners in the last couple of years.

If you need proof, they are all hosted on Gene's site.

I hope you are not too lazy to search and find the info yourself.

hoffmang
04-28-2009, 10:54 PM
Remember, the NRA & CPRA had NOTHING to do or say about Heller until it was won...period. That left a nice little vomit taste in my mouth.

I guess you missed the part where the NRA got a majority of the House and Senate including the Vice President of the United States to sign on to an amicus brief (http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/documents/07-290bsacMembersUSSenate.pdf) in favor of Heller? The also filed another amicus brief (http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/documents/07-290bsacNationalRifleAssociation.pdf) as well.

Other than those critical items, I guess they didn't do anything...

-Gene

Deadred7o7
04-28-2009, 10:54 PM
What is your all time favorite piece of legislation that the GOA has gotten enacted?

What is your all time favorite piece of "sensible gun control" that the NRA as sold to you as the best they could do?

nick
04-28-2009, 10:54 PM
H Paul Payne (that's the username here, not just his name) is the local NRA coordinator you were asking about. Send him a PM, if you want to get the info from the source.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/search.php?searchid=4371705

oso grande
04-28-2009, 10:56 PM
they do more for other states for sure. if they would take more money and concentrate on this state more, thing would move faster here. people will say they do more than what people realize and it may be true but from what i see ,it isn't enough.

I agree.

gregorylucas
04-28-2009, 10:58 PM
I had a lawyer friend who worked for the Governators office in Sac as a bill reader and he stated that the NRA rep took them all out shooting one day.

Changed his entire perspective on shooting and "assault rifles". He loved it and wants to buy his own "assault rifle" someday. Before the expirence he was pro AWB and afterwards he asked me "Is a pistol grip really an assault weapons feature?"

My responce was very diplomatic, "It's merely cosmitic."

So did the NRA change something in Sac, yes. It was just one mis-informed mind at a time.

Greg

Mssr. Eleganté
04-28-2009, 11:08 PM
What is your all time favorite piece of "sensible gun control" that the NRA as sold to you as the best they could do?

My all time favorite is the 1985 bill ending the ban on importation of military surplus firearms. Next would be the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. I know that the NRA lawsuit against San Francisco to end the Prop H handgun ban doesn't really count as legislation, but it is my favorite NRA lawsuit.

Do you want me to go on with my list of favorite laws that the NRA stopped from passing? :)

Deadred7o7
04-28-2009, 11:19 PM
My all time favorite is the 1985 bill ending the ban on importation of military surplus firearms. Next would be the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. I know that the NRA lawsuit against San Francisco to end the Prop H handgun ban doesn't really count as legislation, but it is my favorite NRA lawsuit.

Do you want me to go on with my list of favorite laws that the NRA stopped from passing? :)

Yeah try something in say 1934 or 1968???

yellowfin
04-28-2009, 11:29 PM
In 68 and certainly in 34 there effectively was no NRA as we know them now. On top of that in 1934 nobody had the guts to stand up to King FDR and his goons. They should have been convicted of treason for even attempting to pass the NFA, but nobody wanted to do the right thing.

unusedusername
04-28-2009, 11:29 PM
I had a lawyer friend who worked for the Governators office in Sac as a bill reader and he stated that the NRA rep took them all out shooting one day.

Changed his entire perspective on shooting and "assault rifles". He loved it and wants to buy his own "assault rifle" someday. Before the expirence he was pro AWB and afterwards he asked me "Is a pistol grip really an assault weapons feature?"

My responce was very diplomatic, "It's merely cosmitic."

So did the NRA change something in Sac, yes. It was just one mis-informed mind at a time.

Greg

And THIS is exactly why I give them money. :thumbsup:

Mssr. Eleganté
04-28-2009, 11:31 PM
Yeah try something in say 1934 or 1968???

The United States Marines have lost a few battles too, but I still support them. Do you only support your team when they win?

What is the GOA's big win? What is their shining moment in history? Why didn't they use their magic wand to stop the 1994 AWB?

TheBundo
04-28-2009, 11:33 PM
Yeah try something in say 1934 or 1968???

Those were bad years in America. 1968 I remember well, with MLK and RFK killed a couple of months apart, riots everywhere, even at the Democratic Convention in Chicago. Certainly the most tumultuious year I've lived through.

gcvt
04-28-2009, 11:41 PM
My all time favorite is the 1985 bill ending the ban on importation of military surplus firearms. Next would be the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. I know that the NRA lawsuit against San Francisco to end the Prop H handgun ban doesn't really count as legislation, but it is my favorite NRA lawsuit.

Do you want me to go on with my list of favorite laws that the NRA stopped from passing? :)

Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't have a handgun in my home right now if it wasn't for that...even though we have to keep them locked up at all times :rolleyes:

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 12:06 AM
Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't have a handgun in my home right now if it wasn't for that...even though we have to keep them locked up at all times :rolleyes:


Wow they almost got your constitutional rights back, big win. :thumbsup:


As for the GOA they got just over 300,000 members that belive that "shall no be infringed." means just that.

tonelar
04-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Yeah try something in say 1934 or 1968???
I wasn't shooting in 34 or 68. Were you? Did you make a sound? How about donations? How much of a fight did you put up to the NFA or GC Act of 68?

How about 2004... Where was the NRA when congressional leaders were hot to resurrect the 94 AWB?
They were right there on cap hill. And the legislation was scrapped.

hoffmang
04-29-2009, 12:11 AM
As for the GOA they got just over 300,000 members that belive that "shall no be infringed." means just that.

Please link to a GOA accomplishment. A law or case GOA won or passed will suffice.

I expect: :gene:

-Gene

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 12:19 AM
Please link to a GOA accomplishment. A law or case GOA won or passed will suffice.

I expect: :gene:

-Gene


They have took-n up the David Olofson case. What law in regards to the 2A can any one pass that isnt un-constitutional?

Mssr. Eleganté
04-29-2009, 12:20 AM
Wow they almost got your constitutional rights back, big win. :thumbsup:

And the GOA did...NOTHING!!! That's totally awesome of them!


As for the GOA they got just over 300,000 members that belive that "shall no be infringed." means just that.

My cousin is 5' 2" and weighs 300 pounds and refuses to date any woman who has not at least been on the cover of Playboy magazine. He is seriously "no compromise"...and lonely. :p

Model X
04-29-2009, 12:39 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22094&stc=1&d=1240990747

Appearently it is in Lower Lake.

gcvt
04-29-2009, 12:44 AM
Wow they almost got your constitutional rights back, big win. :thumbsup:


As for the GOA they got just over 300,000 members that belive that "shall no be infringed." means just that.

I've got my handguns, don't I? Where was the GOA in the Prop H fight? I never heard of any involvement by them.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 1:27 AM
They don't have deep pockets to file suits etc., but they confront politicians, let them know they are being watched, and reported on. They lobby primarily at the state level(due to lack of deep pockets, as most people are busy wasting money on NRA). They file briefs and such for federal cases, and did so in Heller case(do some of your own research). So if some of you folks would direct your wasted NRA budget to GOA they could grow into an organization that would truly fight for RKBA and not always compromise as the NRA does.

pTa
04-29-2009, 1:46 AM
soma u boys remind me of preschoolers
"my daddy can beat up your daddy"

if he could get to the gym and someday learn to fight.

Way to win over hearts and minds.

FlyingDesertEagle
04-29-2009, 1:51 AM
Most progun groups will do a better job without drawing all kinds of attention to themselves. I like SAF and CRPA, myself.
That said, I back as many as I can.
Sort of like spreading
the wealth.

AfricanHunter
04-29-2009, 2:04 AM
Most progun groups will do a better job without drawing all kinds of attention to themselves. I like SAF and CRPA, myself.
That said, I back as many as I can.
Sort of like spreading
the wealth.

I used to do the same but realized I was really just wasting my money on many of the fringe groups who seem to cause more harm than good. While I may agree with some of their messages, it just does not work in practice.

Now I give my cash to two org's who I personally feel do the most good for our 2A rights in the realities of today's environment and can show a history of success. Those groups are the NRA and Calguns Foundation. Keep up the good work guys. :thumbsup:

jamesob
04-29-2009, 8:26 AM
Not true - NRA does a LOT in this state. For example, we are the only state where the NRA has a full-time lobbyist.

The NRA focuses on California because our laws often get copied in other states - i.e. gun control "ideas" get hatched here.
exactly my point, they are not doing much since our laws are copied in other sates. they should be more publicized and invest more money since our state makes the laws that the rest addopt.

krazz
04-29-2009, 8:36 AM
Where are we now compared to 20 years ago? Nationally, we have seen zero legislation in SUPPORT of the 2A. The 2A is almost GONE here in CA. WHAT have they done, besides clutter my mailbox? I choose to question their efforts instead of blindly following them like lemmings over the cliff.

Listen, I understand their importance, that's why I'm a member...but...the only time I ever hear of anything they do, is from THEM. How can I trust what they say, when I am witnessing Second Amendment Rights dwindling in front of my eyes.

All this "stopping" of legislation (if it exists) is merely slowing the eventual collapse. I want aggressiveness...

And WTF is with that lame-*** white AR they gave to Palin??

Gator Monroe
04-29-2009, 8:42 AM
Demorat NRA members need to convince other Dem/lib Firearms afficianados that it may be in their best interest to vot GOP in some instances (where area candidate is blatant unoppoligetic anti)

HunterJim
04-29-2009, 8:46 AM
The NRA with all its faults is our designated dog in this fight because it is the largest pro-gun organization, and the antis think it is the enemy. I support it because of that, and I am a Life Member (and have been since 19(mumble)).

The last state member numbers I saw from a friendly NRA Board of Directors member showed California as the #1 state in terms of membership. I don't have any information on funding flowing to the NRA-ILA by state.

I tithe a monthly amount to the NGOs who are actively fighting to promote gun rights in the US and lately in California. This month it is Calguns. I have also sent money to NRA-ILA and CCRKBA/Second Amendment Foundation because of what they are *doing*.

jim

krazz
04-29-2009, 8:46 AM
Demorat NRA members need to convince other Dem/lib Firearms afficianados that it may be in their best interest to vot GOP in some instances (where area candidate is blatant unoppoligetic anti)

Go for it.


Me?....I have no lib friends......by choice.

nick
04-29-2009, 9:11 AM
soma u boys remind me of preschoolers
"my daddy can beat up your daddy"

if he could get to the gym and someday learn to fight.

Way to win over hearts and minds.

You're missing something here. My daddy CAN beat your daddy! :)

pTa
04-29-2009, 9:37 AM
You're missing something here. My daddy CAN beat your daddy! :)
haha:thumbsup:

Back on Top(ic)

Didnt we finally see incorporation of 2A in regards to state and local govt just 9 days ago?
Id think were actually closer to realizing our 2A freedoms than ever before.

Guess some are just "the mag is half empty" types, right?

Bruce
04-29-2009, 9:48 AM
GOA issues hyterical, EOTWAWKI press releases and not much else. :TFH:

jb7706
04-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Will someone please explain to me how all the in fighting amongst firearm owners is productive? All this noise serves to help the other side and does nothing to help us.

:rant:

Grow up. Get involved in protecting/regaining our right and our sport. Take the energy you spend on knocking each other and do something to actually help like calling your politicians, supporting NRA/Calguns Foundation/GOA or bringing new shooters your local gun club. If <insert your favorite group to bash> ain't your cup of tea then find one you like and help or shut the heck up and let the rest of us do your work for you. Either way, the NRA bashing serves no productive purpose.

Silverback
04-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Where are our special forces and Navy SEALs? Other than this recent sniper work on pirates we never hear about them. I think they aren't doing anything. There's a war going on and yet we hear nothing about what they do!

Yep! You never see the Seals in action do you. Uncle Sams Misguided Children, Seals, Rangers and the rest of the Bad Dogs in the fight don't have a need to bark before they bite nor howel after they kick arse. You know they have been there after everything is done if you know how they fight.

bwiese
04-29-2009, 11:44 AM
Lessee, new poster, bashing, etc. - I'm thinking he's likely a GOA/GOC troll here, or just hasn't understood some basic gun law/politics and basic civics class.

1. Pray tell us how vast big pro-2A bills will pass in CA. They won't.
The work is done in the courts. Stealth legislative steps can be done
only incrementally in CA (at least until this week, due to prospective
post- Nordyke litigation).

2. Pray tell us how a pro-2A bill could get traction CA when the 2nd
Amendment & RKBA did not exist in CA until last Monday's handing
down of the Nordyke decision.

3. Pray tell us why it's useful to keep proposing legislation that won't
pass (i.e., "banging head on wall"). Several other supposed pro-gun
orgs do that and it's gotten them nowhere... sometimes these other
gun orgs actually end up trying to pass BAD laws (i.e., GOC-driven
AB2218) that "look" progun but have detrimental results.

NO OTHER GUN ORG BESIDES NRA HAD HAD ANY NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE
SUCCESS WHATSOEVER. In non-CA states where gun orgs have had
success it is usually the NRA's state-affiliated rifle association that has
succeeded (exception: Georgia's now-NRA-decertified state org vs.
Georgia Carry).

4. Pray tell us why the NRA's total "ownership" of Congress (i.e, at the
national level) - even with a fairly irrelevant Republican party - is a bad
thing.

5. Pray tell us why the NRA driven Protection of Lawful Commerce in
Arms Act is a bad thing. (Oh, you forgot to mention that, didn't you?
That saved the gun industry from reckless BS lawsuits and allows us
to play all sorts of games with commerce in firearms even at state
level.)

6. Pray tell us how the NRA's national rounding up & forcing numerous
state Attorneys General and county DAs to file pro-Heller briefs is a bad
thing. And tell us why it's bad to have the VP offer separate support
of Heller brief.

7. Wonder who helped down CA DOJ Firearms Division into a Bureau?
Who drove the Hunt depositions to add huge doubt about validity of AW
laws and which will have further use in taking them down? Who's
generated 3000+ pages of legal documentation that we all use to get
folks outta jail on AW charges?

8. Why do we always have to "feel good" by "seeing something" so that
our enemies can see something too? We don't need to "telegraph our
punches".


Apparently some folks just wanna hear a bunch of noise.

Remember the NRA is YOU. Our guys in Sacramento are in a hostile environment and need support behind them on phones, faxes, mail/email to make legislators "feel the pain".

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
Where are we now compared to 20 years ago? Nationally, we have seen zero legislation in SUPPORT of the 2A. The 2A is almost GONE here in CA. WHAT have they done, besides clutter my mailbox? I choose to question their efforts instead of blindly following them like lemmings over the cliff.

Listen, I understand their importance, that's why I'm a member...but...the only time I ever hear of anything they do, is from THEM. How can I trust what they say, when I am witnessing Second Amendment Rights dwindling in front of my eyes.

All this "stopping" of legislation (if it exists) is merely slowing the eventual collapse. I want aggressiveness...

And WTF is with that lame-*** white AR they gave to Palin??


http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/saundersonslc/yeahi.jpg

ilbob
04-29-2009, 11:51 AM
The NRA is not the best organization to deal with state and local level problems. No one wants out of towners coming in and trying to push them around. It is far more effective for gun owners in the state to mobilize.

The NRA has been working quietly with gun rights groups in CA. It is not a secret or anything, but it is not something they make a big deal about.

The best thing the NRA can do on a state and local level is help state and local groups organize and learn to become effective. Now and then they can file an amicus brief, or go on TV because the talking heads need a clip from an organization known nationally, but their best work is behind the scenes.

DDT
04-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Well, one can have 300,000 no-compromise members but with no money and no judicial or legislative experience they'll get absolutely nowhere.

Do you really think that if the NRA achieves its goals they will simply go away? That's almost as dangerous as thinking that if the Brady's get their insta-checks that they'll go away.

the NRA goals etc. are intermediate goals that they feel are worth working towards. If and when those are all met the goal posts will be moved further downrange. You have to fight battles that can be won. The only good thing about an all or nothing ideology is that it works well to piss off the other side.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 12:28 PM
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.

I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.

adamsreeftank
04-29-2009, 12:49 PM
It seems to me mostly what I have seen from the "other" so-called 2A groups is either bashing the NRA or taking credit for their acomplishments. Way to go guys!:thumbsup:

bwiese
04-29-2009, 12:54 PM
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, .

One of these days you'll post something factual and informed.

Wrong. They are generally small groups that get quite a bit of money in and make quite a nice living without having ANY results.

The NRA really only became fully active as a true gunrights political org in the mid-1970s.
And they got enough bright people the realized ONLY way of protecting & enhancing RKBA given political realities is the path they've been on.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 1:00 PM
C&P from pickenup

H. L. Richardson. He was a board member of the NRA for 10 years. Did he see a problem with their policies? When he found he could NOT change it from within, he left and started the Gun Owners Of America. What is now, the second largest gun rights activist organization in the country. Which is also known by MOST as the “NO COMPROMISE” gun lobby.

Then we can turn out attention to Neal Knox, a career gun rights activist. A board member, as well as serving four years for the NRA, as the Executive Director of the Institute For Legislative Action. Which is the lobbying arm of the NRA. He too must have had a problem with the policies of the NRA, found it impossible to change from within, as he went on to found the Firearms Coalition. Another well known “NO COMPROMISE” organization.

When Neal Knox was on the board, there was a vote to see if Executive Vice President (LaPierre) should be suspended or removed from office. It was supported by a solid 39-30 majority, but short of the two-thirds which was required for passage. At that time, what the Board majority didn't know, was that the previous week LaPierre and his supporters had secretly ordered the placement of a full page ad in the ballot issue of the NRA magazines-six weeks after the published deadline for election ads. The ad worked. five of the nine were defeated, tipping the balance of power on the Board back into LaPierre‘s favor.

Nancyann Rutledge, who was the President of the Santa Barbara NRA Members Council, later to become the Citizens Gun Rights Alliance. What happened to her? After refusing to support the NRA’s gun control positions, and anti-gun candidates, she was decertified by the NRA.

Dave Edmondson, a 2-term NRA Director. Another in a long line of past Directors, board members, etc. which are vocal critics of the NRA's leadership and direction. Dave went on to be founder of the “State Association Coordinating Committee.”

Neil Smith, a life member of the NRA, is an outspoken gun rights activist who is NOT happy with the NRA. He is founder of International Coordinator of the Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus.

A few other facts.

What about Clarence Lovell, an ex-member of the NRA Board of Directors for 14 years. He left because, “he could no longer stomach the falsity of those heading the NRA.”

Albert Ross, former NRA Directors, and second Vice President. Who is now Texas State Rifle Association Director, strongly CONDEMNS the NRA’s very own program, Project Exile. Sighting Project Exile as laws that are unconstitutional violations of the Second Amendment.

Other Board Directors, board members, life members, endowment members, etc that condemned the NRA for Project Exile. Former Chairman, NRA High-power Committee, David Gross, Larry R. Rankin, Arthur Nichols, H.S. "Gunnie" Reagan, Chris BeHanna, Robert T Fanning, Jr., Don Loucks, Jim Ramm, Anthony Brian, Jack H. Stuart, Arnold Gaunt, Clarence Lovell, Richard L. Carone, and more.

Some of the comments C. Russell Howard made when he resigned from the NRA board.
“The unholy alliance of NRA leaders, vendors, and Republican elements is the reason why NRA is declining in stature.

(Addressing LaPierre)
Compared to Mr. Knox's influence, you run the Board like a concentration camp commandant

The struggle for the right of the people to keep and bear arms is at the core of a fundamental struggle for freedom……..In any conflict, if those on the front lines cannot trust and rely on the honor of their comrades, the cause is doomed. While there are many good and honorable people on the Board with various stands on the current power struggle, there are some who cannot be trusted and are without honor.”

Bruce
04-29-2009, 1:11 PM
WTF is "pickenup"?

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 1:14 PM
pickenup is a mod on GB

Bruce
04-29-2009, 1:34 PM
pickenup is a mod on GB


Oh. Some SFB moderator on Gun Broker,(a group that shows no support whatsoever for Californians), is your source of all knowledge relating to the 2A ? That explains a lot. :rolleyes:

yellowfin
04-29-2009, 1:45 PM
The NRA really only became fully active as a true gunrights political org in the mid-1970s.
And they got enough bright people the realized ONLY way of protecting & enhancing RKBA given political realities is the path they've been on.
This, plus they're recovering from a bad case of Fudd-ism they had for most of their history. There is still a serious makeover or at very least a spinoff brand in order to pick up more city dwelling non-camo wearing folks who've never spent a day in the field (or at the range) and still think that the NRA is for country folks and not for them. There hasn't been an effective template crafted and promoted for recapturing the city folk yet on a national basis. We're getting pretty good at it here I think, but much work needs to be done elsewhere.

I find the NY NRA via the NYSRPA especially guilty of this. When I asked one of their top guys about their marketing, I got "We run political and general membership advertisements in a couple of outdoor magazines." They fight the antis with "our PAC and political advertisements aimed at the hunting/sportsmen community." That's it.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 1:48 PM
Wow they almost got your constitutional rights back, big win. :thumbsup:
Which is WORLDS more then GOA has EVER done.

As for the GOA they got just over 300,000 members that belive that "shall no be infringed." means just that.
So they have 300,000 members who sit around screaming pointless invectives at the NRA and accomplish nothing.
We've got nearly 10% of that number from ONE STATE!
And we do more!

300,000 members...
Well.... that's pretty cool isn't it?

Useless as teats on a boar hog, but cool... :rolleyes:

Yeah try something in say 1934 or 1968???
Okay, what did GOA do about those years?
What did GOA do in 1994?
Why didn't they stop the Clinton AWB cold in it's tracks?
Or the CA AWB?

Or is inaction and not preventing EVERYTHING only a flaw when it can be aimed at the NRA?

They have took-n up the David Olofson case. What law in regards to the 2A can any one pass that isnt un-constitutional?
I know all about Olofson, from before GOA ever heard of him when he first told us about his arrest within days of it occurring on Assaultweb.
So GOA took up his case.
One case.
That's your record of achievement.
Wow.
Be still my heart.

They don't have deep pockets to file suits etc., but they confront politicians, let them know they are being watched, and reported on.
Ahh... so instead of doing anything of value they present the Legislature with a prime example of the media created stereotypical gun owner.
Yeah... that's helpful.

They lobby primarily at the state level(due to lack of deep pockets, as most people are busy wasting money on NRA).
Really?
So where have they been?
I don't seem to recall hearing about them during ANY of the past two years plus of having Calgunners present at major and minor hearings and in the halls of the Legislature.
Wow, GOA ninjas!!
They file briefs and such for federal cases, and did so in Heller case(do some of your own research).
You mean JUST LIKE THE NRA DID?
Err... almost like... I should say.
People READ the NRA Amicus Briefs..
So if some of you folks would direct your wasted NRA budget to GOA they could grow into an organization that would truly fight for RKBA and not always compromise as the NRA does.
Sorry, I don't waste my money on losing propositions, I'll stick with the group that was SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO CALGUNNERS in the hearings.

Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it.
Ummm... you mean as you see it.
Many who do more then just complain and deride on an auction site see it differently.
But hey, they're only WORKING with the NRA Staff nearly every day in Sacarmento, WTH do they know right?

These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
That's because that support is EARNED.
By action, not by sitting around complaining that the guy doing it better then you are is doing it wrong.

They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
Really?
And what are supporting by accomplishing NOTHING?

I'm sorry, you're not doing 'nothing'.
You're sitting around on an auction site declaring yourself the arbiter and defender of our rights while we spend time, money, effort and drive, working WITH the NRA Reps, to change things and to restore our rights.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 1:50 PM
Oh. Some SFB moderator on Gun Broker,(a group that shows no support whatsoever for Californians), is your source of all knowledge relating to the 2A ? That explains a lot. :rolleyes:

And the NRA is yours :confused:

WOW we got the big guns on this one.

CHS
04-29-2009, 1:52 PM
C&P from pickenup

H. L. Richardson. He was a board member of the NRA for 10 years. Did he see a problem with their policies? When he found he could NOT change it from within, he left and started the Gun Owners Of America. What is now, the second largest gun rights activist organization in the country. Which is also known by MOST as the “NO COMPROMISE” gun lobby.

Then we can turn out attention to Neal Knox, a career gun rights activist. A board member, as well as serving four years for the NRA, as the Executive Director of the Institute For Legislative Action. Which is the lobbying arm of the NRA. He too must have had a problem with the policies of the NRA, found it impossible to change from within, as he went on to found the Firearms Coalition. Another well known “NO COMPROMISE” organization.

[Lots of stuff snipped]



Ok, so we've got these awesome kick-*** "No compromise" organizations. Rad!

What have they done, and what anti-gun legislation have they defeated? What pro-gun legislation have they had instituted?

The list of accomplishments that can be attributed to the NRA is very long and comprehensive. I'm not knocking the various groups you claim to support, but I am asking you to back up that support with similar accomplishments to the NRA.

One thing that you must keep in mind is that fighting for the 2A has been extremely hard up until Heller+Nordyke, and Nordyke was a whopping 9 days ago. Until 9 days ago, there was no Constitutional Right to keep and bear arms for individual civilians.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 2:04 PM
And the NRA is yours :confused:

WOW we got the big guns on this one.

Hmmm.... let's see....

My choices are a National Organization that I have SEEN actively working here in California to restore our rights and to stop or moot stupid legislation (microstamping anyone?).

Or I can pick some guy on an auction site forum who's claim to fame and accomplishment is hanging out with 20 some odd guys who call themselves 'canaryasses'.

Gee.... tough call....:rolleyes:

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 2:14 PM
I'll take those 20 Men over thousands of mindless drones any day.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 2:16 PM
I'll take those 20 Men over thousands of mindless drones any day.

Okay, you sit in a corner with your 20 men doing nothing more then bemoaning the ACTIONS of others.

Meanwhile the 'drones' will be out there on the front lines working to preserve and restore our, and your, rights.

CALI-gula
04-29-2009, 2:18 PM
I may be off base and I am sure that I will be corrected if that proves to be true.

During the recent assault on the 2A for all of us in California, I have not seen any thing from the NRA. It is true, that I get emails as we all do stating an "alert" and to contact your representitive's. But what ACTUAL representation do we have in the State Capital? Is a NRA representitive going to show up for AB962? Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but we ARE the battleground of the nation. While they show and state "victory" in some small town in the midewest, where are they for us in CA? If the battles are won or lost in this state it is an indication of what can happen in the rest of the nation as we know.

Your thoughts please....


:xeno:

.

krazz
04-29-2009, 2:20 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?

And please, I don't want to hear all about how the NRA does things "behind the scenes" like a ...cough...chuckle.... sniper. Give me a few million bucks and I'll GLADLY take a few pro-gun senators to the local whorehouse.

Some of you are rattling on like mindless zombies..."NRA good NRA good NRA good................"

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 2:32 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?
Answer mine, why didn't the GOA stop the 1994 AWB in it's tracks?
Don't give me any song and dance, tell me why they did not shut it down cold.

And please, I don't want to hear all about how the NRA does things "behind the scenes" like a ...cough...chuckle.... sniper. Give me a few million bucks and I'll GLADLY take a few pro-gun senators to the local whorehouse.

Some of you are rattling on like mindless zombies..."NRA good NRA good NRA good................"

As opposed to "NRA bad... Jimmy said so... NRA bad... Jimmy said so"?

BTW, do you have an answer for why, while Calgunners can tell you who the CA NRA Reps are, what they look like and list how often they've met with them and worked with them in Sacramento to oppose bad legislation, no one has seen a GOA Rep?

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 2:36 PM
Why didnt the NRA stop it in its tracks?

elSquid
04-29-2009, 2:37 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?


How are we currently "worse" than in 1989?

CCW now in most states.

AWB is now known to be a hot potato, politically speaking.

Heller made history. No possibility of outright handgun bans any more. We now have the individual rights "interpretation" as the law of the land.

Heller & Nordyke means that we have the ability to challenge CA's inane laws.

From where I'm sitting, things are definitely looking up.

-- Michael

oaklander
04-29-2009, 2:43 PM
Things haven't gotten worse, they've gotten better, especially these last three years. Now we have incorporation, and things will get a lot better.

The NRA has been very successful in defeating numerous anti-gun bills, and passing several pro-gun bills in California. This is even more amazing, considering that we didn't even have a 2A right until just a few days ago.

The other so-called "pro-gun" organizations (with the exception of CGF, CRPA, SAF and a few others) do little or nothing in California. They send out scary press releases, bash the NRA, and take your money.

What have they done, other than that?

Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?

And please, I don't want to hear all about how the NRA does things "behind the scenes" like a ...cough...chuckle.... sniper. Give me a few million bucks and I'll GLADLY take a few pro-gun senators to the local whorehouse.

Some of you are rattling on like mindless zombies..."NRA good NRA good NRA good................"

bulgron
04-29-2009, 2:44 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?

And please, I don't want to hear all about how the NRA does things "behind the scenes" like a ...cough...chuckle.... sniper. Give me a few million bucks and I'll GLADLY take a few pro-gun senators to the local whorehouse.

Some of you are rattling on like mindless zombies..."NRA good NRA good NRA good................"

Because gradually over the last twenty years the following conditions occurred in California:


Politicians proposed bad gun laws
California gun owners told them we don't want those laws
Politicians passed them anyway
California gun owners sued the politicians in court
The courts said, "Nope, no individual right here. Legislate away!"
California gun owners tried to kick the anti-gun politicians out of office
An increasingly urban population didn't care enough about the gun laws (or actually liked those laws), so the politicians hung on to their jobs.
Powerless to do anything else, california gun owners got mad and left the state, thereby increasing the anti-gun majority in California.
Go to step 1. Rinse, lather, repeat.


Note, however, that with Heller and Nordyke, step 5 is now highly questionable and we now have the opportunity to break the vicious cycle.

Note that no organization, including the NRA, could do a single thing about what's been happening in California until Heller and Nordyke happened. The NRA can't change the way people vote. And the NRA can't change the way the courts have been ruling. They have, however, done an excellent job of delaying the rot in the gun culture in this state.

But that was then, before the courts recognized an individual right to arms in California.

I fully expect a serious offensive legal campaign with the NRA among those in the forefront from here on out. It's been promised (in two weeks!) so let's get that show on the road.

7x57
04-29-2009, 2:46 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?


We are not worse off, we are on the strategic offensive for the first time in my lifetime (born a year before the GCA).

But let's concede your premise for the sake of argument and answer the question. We are where we are because we face determined opposition that will stop at nothing. We aren't playing a game rigged in our favor (well, except for the fact that the supreme law of the land says we are to win, but that's been a hard struggle to get that even acknowledged). We could lose if we do the wrong things, though I am somewhat confident we will not do those wrong things.

We still have widespread gun ownership, increasing steadily for a generation (oops, I wasn't supposed to discredit your premise that we're worse off now), and a living gun culture. I doubt any country can regain the RKBA after losing it's gun culture, so the fact is that while we have taken many casualties we still have an army in the field. Few can say that anywhere else.

I imagine you saying all the same things after Pearl Harbor. The answer is the same: we have real enemies who can do real damage. We may be just after our Midway, or at least our Coral Sea. We hope so. But winning the Pacific was expensive and cost a lot of young American boys, and and our fight isn't any different.

7x57

CHS
04-29-2009, 2:47 PM
Nobody has addressed my question from earlier:

Why are we worse off today than we were 20 years ago? Why have things gotten progressively WORSE?


Because for all practical purposes the 2nd amendment DID NOT EXIST as an individual civil right until 9 days ago. The tide is now being reversed and things are getting better.

oaklander
04-29-2009, 2:55 PM
Folks, let's also not forget off-list goodness, and Monster Mans, and Bullet Buttons, and NeRFs.

This stuff would NOT have been possible without The Right People working in the background to defend those who were arrested (with no successful prosecutions, BTW).

EDIT: I remember reading a Shotgun News a few years ago and moaning about how I couldn't get any of the cool stuff here. Now it's just a matter of going down to your local gunshop, or at worst, using a middleman FFL.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 2:59 PM
Because for all practical purposes the 2nd amendment DID NOT EXIST as an individual civil right until 9 days ago. The tide is now being reversed and things are getting better.

So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 3:00 PM
Folks, let's also not forget off-list goodness, and Monster Mans, and Bullet Buttons, and NeRFs.

This stuff would NOT have been possible without The Right People working in the background to defend those who were arrested (with no successful prosecutions, BTW).

EDIT: I remember reading a Shotgun News a few years ago and moaning about how I couldn't get any of the cool stuff here. Now it's just a matter of going down to your local gunshop, or at worst, using a middleman FFL.

Now Oaklander, you know we can't mention all the background stuff being done or all the work going on behind the scenes....
Some don't see it so it obviously just can not be happening...

:rolleyes:



BTW, the quote in your sig is just flat out disturbing....

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 3:01 PM
So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

So what did you do to change that?

n2k
04-29-2009, 3:08 PM
So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

But you can get your Standard mag kits, and your STAG, CMMG, KD ,etc AR's and your Coharie's. :thumbsup:

DDT
04-29-2009, 3:09 PM
So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

Grow up.

No one said it is perfect. It's not like any of the things you've been doing have returned those rights to us either.

oaklander
04-29-2009, 3:09 PM
LOL, let's just say that certain people have racked up a lot of frequent flyer miles!

Now Oaklander, you know we can't mention all the background stuff being done or all the work going on behind the scenes....
Some don't see it so it obviously just can not be happening...

:rolleyes:



BTW, the quote in your sig is just flat out disturbing....

EDIT: Ha! It disturbs me too. . .

highpowermatch
04-29-2009, 3:13 PM
Hard for me to say what the NRA has done for us lately, but I know that Calguns foundation is a sure bet for you're donation $ . The Calguns warriors are my heroes!!!!! :thumbsup:

CHS
04-29-2009, 3:14 PM
So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

Ok, that's a perfectly valid point.

Please tell me what your "No compromise" groups are doing about that same issue?

Also, please tell me how you expect legal changes to be made in only 9 days?

762cavalier
04-29-2009, 3:18 PM
So what did you do to change that?

Kestryll- I have already been round and round with deadred- he will not answer any questions. He will dance around the issue and answer with more questions. He doesn't have any persuasive facts for his side of the story. He is just an anti-NRA:troll:

what do you expect from someone who proudly calls himself a "canary ***":rolleyes:

Futurecollector
04-29-2009, 3:18 PM
So the NRA dosen't stand for Not Real Around?

Phhhew, I was scared for a moment!!!! :43:

If anyone has the link to a one year membership with the free bag pm it to me, :43: i still want that damn bag!!!!

GSequoia
04-29-2009, 3:21 PM
[QUOTE=oaklander;2395544What have they done, other than that?[/QUOTE]

I think this question should be changed.

"What anit-gun legislation has GOA helped to pass by insisting on a take all or nothing attitude."

oaklander
04-29-2009, 3:22 PM
Yup. I'm going to make an education graph about this. . .

I think this question should be changed.

"What anit-gun legislation has GOA helped to pass by insisting on a take all or nothing attitude."

miles2912
04-29-2009, 3:26 PM
The only thing that I know is that every firearm that I want, I can NOT own in this state.

Mstnpete
04-29-2009, 3:30 PM
If you care about our Second Amendment Rights:

Please watch this video ----> http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/remarks-by-nra-executive-vice-president-wayne-lapierre-at-2009-cpac/15275248


Remarks By NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre at 2009 CPAC

nicki
04-29-2009, 3:32 PM
Going up to Sacramento to on AB357 "Shall Issue" and the "Cow Palace gun ban" was an experience.

The AB357 was more interesting in that they were dealing with alot of "criminal law" type bills.

The real problem is not the NRA, CRPA, GOC or the NSSF, it is California gun owners.

And when I say California gun owners, I'm not referring to this board since you obvious are taking action.

The problem is Calguns should have at least 100,000 plus active members, not 10,000.

The guys up at the capitol are doing the best they can with limited resources.

I know I am a advocate of "Offense", but it is difficult to go on offense, if you have limited resources even for defense.

Yes, the NRA initially opposed the "Heller case", but they came on board and they came on strong.

Alan Gura won the case in the court of law, but the NRA won the case in the court of public opinion.

The vast majority of NRA members are not yet on the same page as us, most still don't understand the heavy civil rights angle that many of us on the board feel regarding gun rights.

Fortunately, the NRA has been coming our direction and the trend will continue.

Nicki

Nicki

n2k
04-29-2009, 3:32 PM
The only thing that I know is that every firearm that I want, I can NOT own in this state.

You can pretty much own anything you want in this state, you just have to know the specific technicalities to abide by, licenses you need and know the right people that can assist you in complying with the laws…..welcome to Calguns.

Bruce
04-29-2009, 3:34 PM
IIRC, the other side offered to compromise with the NRA on the 94 AWB,(20 round magazine capacity and exemption for the AR15 series),but the NRA took a "no compromise" stand and the rest is history.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 3:45 PM
Kestryll- I have already been round and round with deadred- he will not answer any questions. He will dance around the issue and answer with more questions. He doesn't have any persuasive facts for his side of the story. He is just an anti-NRA:troll:

what do you expect from someone who proudly calls himself a "canary ***":rolleyes:

Your right I'm more anti-NRA than I am about supporting any Org.
In the end its about us the people doing whats right and not where you send you $$$. The NRA and all others alike are feel good money makers. :patriot:

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 3:48 PM
Your right I'm more anti-NRA than I am about supporting any Org.


That's pretty sad.

You're so wrapped up in 'I hate...' that you prefer to do nothing and call it 'noble'.

Pathetic.

oaklander
04-29-2009, 3:49 PM
Your right I'm more anti-NRA than I am about supporting any Org.
In the end its about us the people doing whats right and not where you send you $$$. The NRA and all others alike are feel good money makers. :patriot:

What do you do, personally, to help support 2A?

EDIT: it's easy to ***** and moan, it's harder to work to fix a problem.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 3:51 PM
IIRC, the other side offered to compromise with the NRA on the 94 AWB,(20 round magazine capacity and exemption for the AR15 series),but the NRA took a "no compromise" stand and the rest is history.


Wow good for them mabe there is hope. I was only 16 when this all went down and was not in the loop. Atleast they did the right thing that time.

MontClaire
04-29-2009, 3:52 PM
they decided it was easier to take your membership fees and pretend to do some work.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 3:57 PM
they decided it was easier to take your membership fees and pretend to do some work.


How dare you question the NRA.:thumbsup:

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 4:05 PM
Odd that you've yet to answer what exactly it is YOU do to support, protect and restore the 2nd Amendment other then complain about the NRA here and on Gunbroker.


Or perhaps it not that odd after all....

FastFinger
04-29-2009, 4:09 PM
I don't have the time, or frankly the desire, to do the personal research needed to determine whether or not the NRA is doing our state any good or not. But I am interested in being a member if the NRA is effective in our state.

However I did have a few minutes to devote to a bit of research, and that research showed that the board members of Calguns Foundation seem to believe that the NRA is a positive force in advocating for our interests in California, and that's good enough for me.

DDT
04-29-2009, 4:12 PM
IIRC, the other side offered to compromise with the NRA on the 94 AWB,(20 round magazine capacity and exemption for the AR15 series),but the NRA took a "no compromise" stand and the rest is history.

It's probably a damn good thing they didn't compromise on the 20rd mags etc. Getting the sunset clause in was the best possible outcome. Let a horrible bill go through with a sunset and work hard to change the face of the legislature at the sunset.

However; getting the bill killed to begin with would be the best.

yellowfin
04-29-2009, 4:14 PM
Paul Payne and a few others have often made the point that if the energy and effort wasted both by non-NRA members and organizations attacking the NRA and the NRA and its supporters defending it and repairing the damage done were instead directed at the anti gun organizations and politicians who are our real enemies, we wouldn't be having these problems in the first place. This whole discussion very strongly supports that assertion.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 4:23 PM
I feel is all a bout education of the youngsters. We need to let the kids know what not only the 2A was a bout but the constitution and BOR as a hole. These are the people that will lead this country once Im to old to wipe my but. Thats what I do if you must know. Not that it counts for anything in your book.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 4:44 PM
I feel is all a bout education of the youngsters. We need to let the kids know what not only the 2A was a bout but the constitution and BOR as a hole. These are the people that will lead this country once Im to old to wipe my but. Thats what I do if you must know. Not that it counts for anything in your book.

Education IS a good thing to work on, that's why we have a 'Young Calgunners' section.

However it can't be the entirety of the effort.
That changes nothing now and means leaving the responsibility to the next generation.

Freedom deferred is freedom surrendered.

krazz
04-29-2009, 4:46 PM
Gene and the CGF have done more in this state in the past 3 years than the NRA has done since it's inception. The main purpose of the NRA is to take the millions and millions of OUR dollars and spend it greasing the slimy pockets of politicians.

Everything that the NRA has "done" to protect our 2A rights has been straight out of their mouth. The factbook on them has been written by them.

All in all, I am too leery of them because they are too politically connected, and I don't trust politicians...weather they are named McCain, Obama or LaPierre, they have all been cast from the same pot.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 4:51 PM
Gene and the CGF have done more in this state in the past 3 years than the NRA has done since it's inception.

You do know that CGF works WITH the NRA people in Cali, right?
We work independant of them as well but we do work with them too.
That means they have to be doing something in order for someone to be working with them....

Or are you just ignoring that oft-repeated fact?

Bruce
04-29-2009, 5:00 PM
I feel is all a bout education of the youngsters. We need to let the kids know what not only the 2A was a bout but the constitution and BOR as a hole. These are the people that will lead this country once Im to old to wipe my but. Thats what I do if you must know. Not that it counts for anything in your book.


Judging by your rather tenuous grasp of the situation, and the grammar/spelling in the above post, you would do well to educate yourself before you try to educate others.

CHS
04-29-2009, 5:12 PM
Odd that you've yet to answer what exactly it is YOU do to support, protect and restore the 2nd Amendment other then complain about the NRA here and on Gunbroker.


That's pretty much Modus Operandi for Canaryasses.

Even when I ceded to his point, he completely ignored my other questions.

krazz
04-29-2009, 5:20 PM
You do know that CGF works WITH the NRA people in Cali, right?
We work independant of them as well but we do work with them too.
That means they have to be doing something in order for someone to be working with them....

Or are you just ignoring that oft-repeated fact?

Actually, I didn't know that. Touché. :thumbsup:

oaklander
04-29-2009, 6:06 PM
Actually, I didn't know that. Touché. :thumbsup:

Yes, all the major groups in California work together as a team. Here's a graph that show how everything fits together. . .

http://i44.tinypic.com/f77s5.jpg

CALI-gula
04-29-2009, 6:27 PM
Your right I'm more anti-NRA than I am about supporting any Org.
In the end its about us the people doing whats right and not where you send you $$$. The NRA and all others alike are feel good money makers. :patriot:

I am the NRA. I KNOW what I have done for your 2nd Amendment rights. I will excuse you for enjoying my hard work, and subsequently allow you to thank the NRA's hard work for any number of 2nd Amendment freedoms you still hold, when you come to fully realize them.

I've never been paid a dime by the NRA or anyone else for my efforts - I have been entirely volunteer, with the NRA guiding the way, and I am proud of that. I only wish I could do more at this point in my life.

I'm just one guy, yet, I am STILL the NRA of which you wish to deride. And the NRA is comprised of a LOT of us "just-one-guy" (or gal) types.

I am not obligated to report to you, especially as you are a self pro-claimed adversary, and thusly, from your posts here, it sounds to me that you are quite likely an adversary of the 2nd Amendment, wearing sheep's clothing.

Confounding, is it not? To be so full of angst it materializes into apathy? That is the by-product of the work adverse, who then adopt the role of being effort-free critics, their self-appointed job; hey, someone has to sit all cushy at the front of the boat and call out the rowing strokes right? You would be of better use in grabbing an oar!

I have nothing wrong with critics so long as they put in their time, even those working with the NRA yet critical of the NRA - I would give you my full attention.

Instead, you are not a part of the NRA, and to make matters worse, you are apathetic. In some ways that is good, because your apathy, along with a large portion of California citizens' apathy over their 2nd Amendment rights, is my motivation to work harder. One day they will wake up as will you. Stick around here, do some reading, and you might.

But what are you? What have you done? Quite clearly you haven't even gotten into the boat - you're trying to call the strokes from shore!

You get a glance, and then just as quickly pass into insignificance as we move upstream. We are too busy rowing together to hear you.

I am the NRA. We are the NRA. We are rowing against the river of contempt for the 2nd Amendment.

Good luck.

.

dwtt
04-29-2009, 8:09 PM
The main purpose of the NRA is to take the millions and millions of OUR dollars and spend it greasing the slimy pockets of politicians.

Everything that the NRA has "done" to protect our 2A rights has been straight out of their mouth. The factbook on them has been written by them.

All in all, I am too leery of them because they are too politically connected, and I don't trust politicians...weather they are named McCain, Obama or LaPierre, they have all been cast from the same pot.

The NRA doesn't grease the pockets of politicians, it's stupid to say so. Ed Worley was at the BWO dinner and if you had been there, you could have asked him yourself if he's slipped some money to politicians. Making up stuff just makes you look stupid.

Much of what the NRA has "done" in CA to preserve our rights was done by me, and hundreds of other members. We, the members of the NRA, are the NRA. The OP kept saying the NRA hasn't done anything in CA to help gun owners because he hasn't seen anything, and others like krazz jumped in and agreed. The problem is he and krazz and others like them probably didn't do anything, sitting on the bench expecting a monolithic NRA to do it for them. They didn't see anything because they weren't involved. If the OP and krazz and others like them haven't done anything to oppose SB585, AB962, or SB776, then they're just going to stay ignorant and keep up this anti-NRA rant until the day they die. Paying some cash every year doesn't relieve you of the need to call, fax, and write to the state legislators to stop antigun bills.

762cavalier
04-29-2009, 9:31 PM
I am the NRA. I KNOW what I have done for your 2nd Amendment rights. I will excuse you for enjoying my hard work, and subsequently allow you to thank the NRA's hard work for any number of 2nd Amendment freedoms you still hold, when you come to fully realize them.

I've never been paid a dime by the NRA or anyone else for my efforts - I have been entirely volunteer, with the NRA guiding the way, and I am proud of that. I only wish I could do more at this point in my life.

I'm just one guy, yet, I am STILL the NRA of which you wish to deride. And the NRA is comprised of a LOT of us "just-one-guy" (or gal) types.

I am not obligated to report to you, especially as you are a self pro-claimed adversary, and thusly, from your posts here, it sounds to me that you are quite likely an adversary of the 2nd Amendment, wearing sheep's clothing.

Confounding, is it not? To be so full of angst it materializes into apathy? That is the by-product of the work adverse, who then adopt the role of being effort-free critics, their self-appointed job; hey, someone has to sit all cushy at the front of the boat and call out the rowing strokes right? You would be of better use in grabbing an oar!

I have nothing wrong with critics so long as they put in their time, even those working with the NRA yet critical of the NRA - I would give you my full attention.

Instead, you are not a part of the NRA, and to make matters worse, you are apathetic. In some ways that is good, because your apathy, along with a large portion of California citizens' apathy over their 2nd Amendment rights, is my motivation to work harder. One day they will wake up as will you. Stick around here, do some reading, and you might.

But what are you? What have you done? Quite clearly you haven't even gotten into the boat - you're trying to call the strokes from shore!

You get a glance, and then just as quickly pass into insignificance as we move upstream. We are too busy rowing together to hear you.

I am the NRA. We are the NRA. We are rowing against the river of contempt for the 2nd Amendment.

Good luck.

.

:King:

Most of those that bash NRA probably don't even know there is a local members council where they can do something other than whine:nopity:

nooner
04-29-2009, 9:39 PM
Prove they aren't.
Even though I don't agree with the OP, you don't prove a negative.

GSequoia
04-29-2009, 9:50 PM
Even though I don't agree with the OP, you don't prove a negative.

When you are making an accusation there is a burden of proof. You don't walk into the L.A.P.D. and just say "your cops aren't doing their job" without some sort of proof and expect to be taken seriously.

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 9:53 PM
The NRA doesn't grease the pockets of politicians, it's stupid to say so. Ed Worley was at the BWO dinner and if you had been there, you could have asked him yourself if he's slipped some money to politicians. Making up stuff just makes you look stupid.

Much of what the NRA has "done" in CA to preserve our rights was done by me, and hundreds of other members. We, the members of the NRA, are the NRA. The OP kept saying the NRA hasn't done anything in CA to help gun owners because he hasn't seen anything, and others like krazz jumped in and agreed. The problem is he and krazz and others like them probably didn't do anything, sitting on the bench expecting a monolithic NRA to do it for them. They didn't see anything because they weren't involved. If the OP and krazz and others like them haven't done anything to oppose SB585, AB962, or SB776, then they're just going to stay ignorant and keep up this anti-NRA rant until the day they die. Paying some cash every year doesn't relieve you of the need to call, fax, and write to the state legislators to stop antigun bills.


Of course money isn't paid directly. That's fairly rare these days I think.
Helping pay for campaigns, producing literature and distribute it to your members urging them to vote a certain way, etc etc. It's all the same. Perhaps it's not a freezer with $90k cash - but it might as well be.

Not really trying to fault the NRA - that's just how the game is played unfortunately. Let's be honest about what it is though. The wheels of politics simply do not turn without a little grease.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 10:17 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/09/AR2007060901080.html?hpid=topnews

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 10, 2007; Page A02

Senior Democrats have reached agreement with the National Rifle Association on what could be the first federal gun-control legislation since 1994, a measure to significantly strengthen the national system that checks the backgrounds of gun buyers.

The sensitive talks began in April, days after a mentally ill gunman killed 32 students and teachers at Virginia Tech University. The shooter, Seung Hui Cho, had been judicially ordered to submit to a psychiatric evaluation, which should have disqualified him from buying handguns. But the state of Virginia never forwarded that information to the federal National Instant Check System (NICS), and the massacre exposed a loophole in the 13-year-old background-check program.

Under the agreement, participating states would be given monetary enticements for the first time to keep the federal background database up to date, as well as penalties for failing to comply.

To sign on to the deal, the powerful gun lobby won significant concessions from Democratic negotiators in weeks of painstaking talks. Individuals with minor infractions in their pasts could petition their states to have their names removed from the federal database, and about 83,000 military veterans, put into the system by the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2000 for alleged mental health reasons, would have a chance to clean their records. The federal government would be permanently barred from charging gun buyers or sellers a fee for their background checks. In addition, faulty records such as duplicative names or expunged convictions would have to be scrubbed from the database.


"The NRA worked diligently with the concerns of gun owners and law enforcement in mind to make a . . . system that's better for gun owners and better for law enforcement," said House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Dingell (D-Mich.), a former NRA board member, who led the talks.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) had been pushing similar legislation for years. But her reputation as a staunch opponent of the gun lobby -- she came to Congress to promote gun control after her husband was gunned down in a massacre on the Long Island Rail Road -- ruined any chance of a deal with the NRA.

By contrast, this agreement is a marriage of convenience for both sides. Democratic leaders are eager to show that they can respond legislatively to the Virginia Tech rampage, a feat that GOP leaders would not muster after the 1999 shootings at Columbine High School in Colorado. Meanwhile, the NRA was motivated to show it would not stand in the way of a bill that would not harm law-abiding gun buyers. Even so, it drove a hard bargain to quiet its smaller but more vociferous rival, Gun Owners of America, which has long opposed McCarthy's background-check bill.

Chris W. Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist, said yesterday that the organization will strongly support the legislation as written. "We've been on record for decades for keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally adjudicated. It's not only good policy, it's good politics," he said. But Cox warned that if the legislation becomes a "gun-control wish list" as it moves through Congress, the NRA will withdraw its support and work against the bill.

The NRA reacted furiously to the last major federal gun-control legislation, a 1994 ban on assault weapons, and that reaction helped sweep Democrats from control of Congress later that year. Vice President Al Gore's embrace of gun-control proposals helped secure his defeat in the presidential election of 2000, and Democratic leaders have been leery of touching the issue ever since.

This time, Democratic leaders dispatched Dingell and Rep. Rick Boucher (Va.), a pro-gun Democrat who represents Virginia Tech's home town, Blacksburg, to reach a deal. But talks dragged on over issues of constitutionality and questions over how to institute a means to clear names from the system.

On Friday afternoon, the NRA finally signed off.

"I've been involved with this legislative effort for years, working to address the shortcomings of NICS. I'm confident that this legislation will do it," Dingell said. "No law will prevent evildoers from doing evil acts, but this law will help ensure that those deemed dangerous by the courts will not be able to purchase a weapon."

Under the bill, states voluntarily participating in the system would have to file an audit with the U.S. attorney general of all the criminal cases, mental health adjudications and court-ordered drug treatments that had not been filed with the instant-check system. The federal government would then pick up 90 percent of the cost for the states to get up to date within 180 days of the audit.

Once the attorney general determines that a state has cleared its backlog, the federal government would begin financing all the costs of keeping the system current. If a state's compliance lapses, the attorney general would be authorized to cut federal law enforcement grants, with more draconian aid cuts mandated if noncompliance stretches longer than a year.

The bill would authorize payments to the states of $250 million a year between 2008 and 2010, when the program would have to be reassessed and reauthorized by Congress.

Only one state, Vermont, does not participate in the instant-check system, and even with the threatened aid cuts, negotiators expressed confidence that no other state would drop out, given the funding that would be available and the stigma that would be attached to withdrawal.

"I can't imagine a scenario where a state would drop out, and say what? 'If you're adjudicated schizophrenic, you can buy your guns here'?" asked a Democratic aide involved directly in the negotiations, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not cleared to speak to reporters.

Shane916
04-29-2009, 10:25 PM
http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web.jpg

FastFinger
04-29-2009, 10:44 PM
Gene and the CGF have done more in this state in the past 3 years than the NRA has done since it's inception. The main purpose of the NRA is to take the millions and millions of OUR dollars and spend it greasing the slimy pockets of politicians.

Everything that the NRA has "done" to protect our 2A rights has been straight out of their mouth. The factbook on them has been written by them.

All in all, I am too leery of them because they are too politically connected, and I don't trust politicians...weather they are named McCain, Obama or LaPierre, they have all been cast from the same pot.

Which is why when they all endorse NRA membership - I listen.

Let's be cynical here for a second. If the board members of Calguns Foundation were to do a 180 and state that the NRA is worthless and ineffective, no doubt they would benefit from people who would allocate potential NRA membership fees to Calguns Foundation instead. But they don't do that, instead they encourage NRA membership.

Looking at what Calguns Foundation has done, and how they operate, it is clear that they are extremely plugged into all facets of 2A RKBA political warfare in California. One of the weapons in their arsenal is cooperation with the NRA and by extension its members.

To me that's enough justification for my NRA membership. It takes pretty twisted and faulty logic to see it otherwise.

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Interesting read, I like these parts....

To sign on to the deal, the powerful gun lobby won significant concessions from Democratic negotiators in weeks of painstaking talks. Individuals with minor infractions in their pasts could petition their states to have their names removed from the federal database, and about 83,000 military veterans, put into the system by the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2000 for alleged mental health reasons, would have a chance to clean their records. The federal government would be permanently barred from charging gun buyers or sellers a fee for their background checks. In addition, faulty records such as duplicative names or expunged convictions would have to be scrubbed from the database.


"The NRA worked diligently with the concerns of gun owners and law enforcement in mind to make a . . . system that's better for gun owners and better for law enforcement," said House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Dingell (D-Mich.), a former NRA board member, who led the talks.

...

Chris W. Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist, said yesterday that the organization will strongly support the legislation as written. "We've been on record for decades for keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally adjudicated. It's not only good policy, it's good politics," he said. But Cox warned that if the legislation becomes a "gun-control wish list" as it moves through Congress, the NRA will withdraw its support and work against the bill.

The NRA reacted furiously to the last major federal gun-control legislation, a 1994 ban on assault weapons, and that reaction helped sweep Democrats from control of Congress later that year. Vice President Al Gore's embrace of gun-control proposals helped secure his defeat in the presidential election of 2000, and Democratic leaders have been leery of touching the issue ever since.

This time, Democratic leaders dispatched Dingell and Rep. Rick Boucher (Va.), a pro-gun Democrat who represents Virginia Tech's home town, Blacksburg, to reach a deal. But talks dragged on over issues of constitutionality and questions over how to institute a means to clear names from the system.

On Friday afternoon, the NRA finally signed off.

"I've been involved with this legislative effort for years, working to address the shortcomings of NICS. I'm confident that this legislation will do it," Dingell said. "No law will prevent evildoers from doing evil acts, but this law will help ensure that those deemed dangerous by the courts will not be able to purchase a weapon."


Of course we all remember this bill, the one that allowed Veterans to REGAIN their 2nd Amendment rights and took steps to keep people who have been found to have dangerous mental disorders from acquiring firearms.


So why do you want to allow people with dangerous mental illnesses to have guns while DENYING them to our Veterans?


(Yeah, I can do that kind of 'argument' too...)

DDT
04-29-2009, 10:53 PM
So why do you want to allow people with dangerous mental illnesses to have guns while DENYING them to our Veterans?


Perhaps he qualifies as the former but not the latter?

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 10:55 PM
So your ok with a MD telling someone that they can or can not exercise their 2A.


Just how much gun-control do you and the NRA support????

Sinixstar
04-29-2009, 11:03 PM
So your ok with a MD telling someone that they can or can not exercise their 2A.


Just how much gun-control do you and the NRA support????

If you're crazy, you don't get guns. If you're a known criminal, you don't get guns.

I'm perfectly fine with individuals who have been declared mentally unstable, and/or a danger to themselves and/or society to be barred from owning guns until they get their issues taken care of.

Just as i'm perfectly fine with the gang banger who's been in and out of jail his whole life and has a history of violent crime receiving the same barring of ownership.

We have the 2nd amendment to take our own security into our own hands, and to protect us from the criminals, criminally insane, and the flat out insane. Be they government figures or private. It makes very very little sense to then turn around and hand the very people we're trying to protect ourselves from - the very tools we use to protect ourselves.

Maybe that makes me a gun-grabber, anti, or whatever else - but i'm perfectly fine with that level of gun control.

I can understand why the military submitted the names of certain veterans to the database for mental health issues. There have been instances of vets suffering mental problems after returning from war - and coming unhinged. Frankly, I can't really fault 'em. Doubt I could handle it myself. I also however applaud the NRA for pushing to create a mechanism for those vets to get their names removed once they've been treated.

CHS
04-29-2009, 11:04 PM
Ok, that's a perfectly valid point.

Please tell me what your "No compromise" groups are doing about that same issue?

Also, please tell me how you expect legal changes to be made in only 9 days?


Just how much gun-control do you and the NRA support????

Can you please address my questions? So far you haven't really addressed anyone's questions.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 11:11 PM
Can you please address my questions? So far you haven't really addressed anyone's questions.


Sure I'll address it A: I have no idea what they are doing about that issue, do your own research. Also your the one that said we got the 2A 9 days ago...so where is it?

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 11:24 PM
So your ok with a MD telling someone that they can or can not exercise their 2A.


Just how much gun-control do you and the NRA support????

Tell me, how much experience you have in the Psych field?
Let me give you a small peek into it.

One of the more memorable transports was the 'gentleman' who attacked a staff member on a locked ward and then proceeded to go after himself with a bade. When we got there he was calmer but the blood covering his arms and dripping off his hands was still quite fresh.

Another charmer went in on a 72 hour hold after attacking his family.
Yes, that does include his younger sister.

That's not even getting in to the suicide attempts.

The 72 hour hold, which everyone knows as '5150' requires the patient to be 'a danger to self or others'.

These are the people YOU have an issue with being denied access to firearms.
And YES, all of these had a history of this kind of activity prior to the examples I saw.

I guess it would have been better had the charmer been able to shoot his juvenile sister and his parents rather then just beat them severely, right?

Kestryll
04-29-2009, 11:26 PM
Sure I'll address it A: I have no idea what they are doing about that issue, do your own research. Also your the one that said we got the 2A 9 days ago...so where is it?

So in other words you got jack and squat and just want to whine about those doing the actual work.

Got it.

CHS
04-29-2009, 11:28 PM
Sure I'll address it A: I have no idea what they are doing about that issue, do your own research. Also your the one that said we got the 2A 9 days ago...so where is it?

Wait a minute. You're the one here going on and on and on about all these "no compromise" groups, and how awesome they are, yet you have no idea what they are doing for the 2A? You honestly have no idea? And you give these people money?

The 2A went into effect 9 days ago, and now we just need to challenge the current laws in court. Where are your "no compromise" groups lawsuits? Oh wait, that's right, you have no idea what they're doing.

I really do have to ask..... Are you an idiot?

Sorry.. that might have been a little rude.

Are you a complete and total moron?!?

Because you sure as hell sound like one.

You sit here and chastise the NRA for doing nothing, and talk about how amazing your "no compromise" groups are, but when someone points out the laundry list of NRA accomplishments and asks for your "no compromise" groups accomplishments, your best answer is "I have no idea what they are doing".

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'll take the list of NRA accomplishments over "I have no idea" *ANY* day of the week.

oaklander
04-29-2009, 11:31 PM
Deadred7o7,

You've done a lot of complaining about the NRA in this thread - but you aren't answering people's questions.

I asked you WHAT HAVE YOU HAVE DONE TO FURTHER 2A RIGHTS?

You did not answer.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem, and/or just a troll.

hoffmang
04-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Actually, I didn't know that. Touché. :thumbsup:

You'll note my earlier postings saying that the NRA has been doing excellent things in this state for all of us gunowners...

Deadred7o7:

I challenge you to a duel. You bring the Colt AR-15 that GOA helped you acquire and I'll bring the STAG-15 that Calguns and NRA helped me acquire. I'll be a gentleman and let you shoot your non-existent firearm first...

:gene:

-Gene

oaklander
04-29-2009, 11:41 PM
Gene,

I don't think he will understand this!

LOL

You'll note my earlier postings saying that the NRA has been doing excellent things in this state for all of us gunowners...

Deadred7o7:

I challenge you to a duel. You bring the Colt AR-15 that GOA helped you acquire and I'll bring the STAG-15 that Calguns and NRA helped me acquire. I'll be a gentleman and let you shoot your non-existent firearm first...

:gene:

-Gene

yellowfin
04-29-2009, 11:44 PM
Of course money isn't paid directly. That's fairly rare these days I think.
Helping pay for campaigns, producing literature and distribute it to your members urging them to vote a certain way, etc etc. It's all the same. Perhaps it's not a freezer with $90k cash - but it might as well be. Thanks to McCain-Feingold, they can't even do that. But don't let facts get in your way.

Deadred7o7
04-29-2009, 11:59 PM
Gene,

I don't think he will understand this!

LOL

Oh I understand that we cant have Colts in Kali but can have Stag. I just dont understand why anybody would think thats a all out win for us. Why are so many happy with so little we got?

yellowfin
04-30-2009, 12:01 AM
Oh I understand that we cant have Colts in Kali but can have Stag. I just dont understand why anybody would think thats a all out win for us. Why are so many happy with so little we got?

Exactly what can a Colt do that a Stag can't, other than drain more money out of your wallet uselessly?

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 12:03 AM
Oh I understand that we cant have Colts in Kali but can have Stag. I just dont understand why anybody would think thats a all out win for us. Why are so many happy with so little we got?

Uhm... The difference between holding a rifle and holding out for Don Quixote perfectionism?

I guess you aren't taking me up on my duel between your GOC provided (non existent) weapon and my NRA provided weapon, huh? I mean, NRA wouldn't have actually been more effective on this issue than your pure extremists would they?

Which laws or cases has H.L. helped actual gun owners on exactly? Maybe you should ask H.L. to make a 5 figure donation to the Calguns Foundation?

-Gene

Deadred7o7
04-30-2009, 12:06 AM
This should be a sig line for some of you.
Sinixstar
"Maybe that makes me a gun-grabber, anti, or whatever else - but i'm perfectly fine with that level of gun control."

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 12:10 AM
. I just dont understand why anybody would think thats a all out win for us. Why are so many happy with so little we got?I don't know anybody who is satisfied with what we've got. We didn't lose our gun rights in a day, we aren't gonna get them all back in a day either.

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 12:12 AM
I don't know anybody who is satisfied with what we've got. We didn't lose our gun rights in a day, we aren't gonna get them all back in a day either.

You forgot that Deadred7o7 is satisfied with his non existent Colt AR-15 that GOC obtained for him!

-Gene

Sinixstar
04-30-2009, 12:12 AM
Thanks to McCain-Feingold, they can't even do that. But don't let facts get in your way.

Right, cause nobody's ever found a way to get around that.

Ever turn on your TV around election time?

Kestryll
04-30-2009, 12:13 AM
This should be a sig line for some of you.
Sinixstar
"Maybe that makes me a gun-grabber, anti, or whatever else - but i'm perfectly fine with that level of gun control."

This pretty much confirms what we all already know.

You're just here to troll and stir up crap with ignorance and foolishness.

You're not worth the effort.

ke6guj
04-30-2009, 12:13 AM
OK, I don't PERSONALLY know anybody who is satisfied with what we've got. :D

Sinixstar
04-30-2009, 12:15 AM
This should be a sig line for some of you.
Sinixstar
"Maybe that makes me a gun-grabber, anti, or whatever else - but i'm perfectly fine with that level of gun control."

If you want to argue with this one - feel free.


If you're crazy, you don't get guns. If you're a known criminal, you don't get guns.


Even though I may differ with a good number of people on here - I can say pretty confidently that this is something I think the majority of people can agree with.

Monte
04-30-2009, 12:20 AM
Oh I understand that we cant have Colts in Kali but can have Stag. I just dont understand why anybody would think thats a all out win for us. Why are so many happy with so little we got?

Who said it was an all-out win? It's progress. It's movement in the right direction.

Nobody here is satisfied with the current state of gun laws in California, but we've had some not-insubstantial wins lately. And, if the CGF guys - the guys who were responsible for OLLs, for challenging the BOF, for helping to defending those of us who have been wrongfully arrested and/or charged, etc. - say that the NRA has been working quietly and effectively below the radar, I think you'll find that myself and many others on this site are very inclined to believe them.

bwiese
04-30-2009, 12:33 AM
I challenge you to a duel. You bring the Colt AR-15 that GOA helped you acquire and I'll bring the STAG-15 that Calguns and NRA helped me acquire. I'll be a gentleman and let you shoot your non-existent firearm first...


Is the ammo mail order or not, because we wouldn't want Kathy Lynch/CAFR to control that ...

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 12:36 AM
Is the ammo mail order or not, because we wouldn't want Kathy Lynch/CAFR to control that ...

Ouch! :43:

oaklander
04-30-2009, 1:04 AM
He still did not answer my question.

hoffmang
04-30-2009, 1:21 AM
He still did not answer my question.

But your question is hard. Hard questions don't fit his world view.

-Gene

javalos
04-30-2009, 7:29 AM
I may be off base and I am sure that I will be corrected if that proves to be true.

During the recent assault on the 2A for all of us in California, I have not seen any thing from the NRA. It is true, that I get emails as we all do stating an "alert" and to contact your representitive's. But what ACTUAL representation do we have in the State Capital? Is a NRA representitive going to show up for AB962? Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but we ARE the battleground of the nation. While they show and state "victory" in some small town in the midewest, where are they for us in CA? If the battles are won or lost in this state it is an indication of what can happen in the rest of the nation as we know.

Your thoughts please....
Its easy to think that pro-2A groups aren't around, fact is they are. California Rifle and Pistol Association (essentially California NRA) and Gun Owners of California lobby hard in Sacramento. The biggest impact on the politicians is YOU, your calls, letters, and e-mails.

Bruce
04-30-2009, 8:06 AM
But your question is hard. Hard questions don't fit his world view.

-Gene

Hard questions require him to think. He has to form his own answer, not cut & paste some article, or regurgitate some one else's demented thoughts.

SigShooter
04-30-2009, 10:13 AM
I am the NRA. I KNOW what I have done for your 2nd Amendment rights. I will excuse you for enjoying my hard work, and subsequently allow you to thank the NRA's hard work for any number of 2nd Amendment freedoms you still hold, when you come to fully realize them.

I've never been paid a dime by the NRA or anyone else for my efforts - I have been entirely volunteer, with the NRA guiding the way, and I am proud of that. I only wish I could do more at this point in my life.

I'm just one guy, yet, I am STILL the NRA of which you wish to deride. And the NRA is comprised of a LOT of us "just-one-guy" (or gal) types.

I am not obligated to report to you, especially as you are a self pro-claimed adversary, and thusly, from your posts here, it sounds to me that you are quite likely an adversary of the 2nd Amendment, wearing sheep's clothing.

Confounding, is it not? To be so full of angst it materializes into apathy? That is the by-product of the work adverse, who then adopt the role of being effort-free critics, their self-appointed job; hey, someone has to sit all cushy at the front of the boat and call out the rowing strokes right? You would be of better use in grabbing an oar!

I have nothing wrong with critics so long as they put in their time, even those working with the NRA yet critical of the NRA - I would give you my full attention.

Instead, you are not a part of the NRA, and to make matters worse, you are apathetic. In some ways that is good, because your apathy, along with a large portion of California citizens' apathy over their 2nd Amendment rights, is my motivation to work harder. One day they will wake up as will you. Stick around here, do some reading, and you might.

But what are you? What have you done? Quite clearly you haven't even gotten into the boat - you're trying to call the strokes from shore!

You get a glance, and then just as quickly pass into insignificance as we move upstream. We are too busy rowing together to hear you.

I am the NRA. We are the NRA. We are rowing against the river of contempt for the 2nd Amendment.

Good luck.

.
:iagree:

I hereby nominate this post for "Post-of-the-Year"!

H Paul Payne
04-30-2009, 10:40 AM
California Rifle and Pistol Association (essentially California NRA) .........

No Jerry! The California Rifle and Pistol Association is NOT "essentially [the] California NRA"!

No disrespect intended to the CRPA. I am VERY pleased with our new working relationship with NRA's affiliated state association. But the "California NRA" is the NRA. And so are all of the NRA members in California.

Ed Worley and I happen to represent "the NRA" in California.

I hope this clears-up your mis-understanding. If not, call me.

Paul

H Paul Payne
04-30-2009, 11:19 AM
I may be off base and I am sure that I will be corrected if that proves to be true.
I will try to assist you.

During the recent assault on the 2A for all of us in California, I have not seen any thing from the NRA.
What would you like to see? Many other people have witnessed the NRA in action within California. How can we help enlighten you?

It is true, that I get emails as we all do stating an "alert" and to contact your representitive's. But what ACTUAL representation do we have in the State Capital? Is a NRA representitive going to show up for AB962?
We have a full-time "State Liaison" (aka lobbyist) in the State Capitol. His name is Ed Worley. And I work, throughout the state, organizing our members and working with other clubs, groups, stores, ranges, etc.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but we ARE the battleground of the nation. While they show and state "victory" in some small town in the midewest, where are they for us in CA?
We are here, and have been for a long time. If you've been around Calguns for any length of time, I'm sure you have noticed NRA's activities in this state.

Your thoughts please....
My thoughts..........??

I would like you to get involved with the NRA in your very own community. It's free! It's easy! And it only takes a little of your time (however much time you're willing to invest in assisting the NRA fight for our freedoms).

Using the email address that you posted on the Calguns Contact Info page, I have searched the servers for the California-Alert System (CAL-ERTs) and the servers for the One-Click system and cannot find your email address! This means that either you are not subscribed to the CAL-ERTs and do not send One-Clicks, OR you are subscribed under a different email address.

Also, I don't see you listed in the roster of your local NRA Members' Council, and they meet about 5 - 10 minutes from your location in Corona.

Please consider this MY PERSONAL INVITATION to become involved with the NRA, and do so right there in the Inland Empire.

The NRA Members' Council of the Inland Empire meets on the 1st Tuesday of each month at the Kountry Folks Homestyle Restaurant located at 3653 La Sierra Avenue in Riverside (near the Jiffy Lube at the 91 fwy). A map and contact information can be found at http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/cgi-bin/haasmcshowwebpage.cgi?mc=inlandempire

Also, you can self-subscribe to the California-Alert System at http://e-govmail.com/cgi-bin/subscribe.cgi?to=nramemberscouncils.com .

To personally contact your local NRA Members' Council, complete the form at http://www.calnra.com/volunteer/index.shtml . Note: Completing this form will also subscribe you to the California-Alert System (CAL-ERTs).

Remington, I will be at the NRA Members' Council of the Inland Empire meeting on Tuesday, May 5th, in Riverside. I look forward to meeting you there.

If you have any questions, suggestions, concerns, ideas, etc. please don't hesitate to contact me directly. Many people, here at Calguns, can tell you that I am very responsive to your concerns and I'm not shy about meeting with you face-to-face.

Paul

H Paul Payne
04-30-2009, 11:24 AM
they do more for other states for sure. i

What is your source?? Prove your statement!?!

Paul

H Paul Payne
04-30-2009, 11:28 AM
They don't want to do too much work or make too much progress.

I call BS on this!!!

Having a bogeyman to scare all the people in all the other states is a really effective tool. "You don't want to end up like California" has surely raised millions upon millions of dollars. That doesn't work if we have things like "shall issue".

THIS TOO!!!

Or maybe i'm just a really cynical bastard.

I didn't say it. YOU DID!!!

H Paul Payne
04-30-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes I'm a member, #144851###. You mean the well communicated local meetings? Really? Of the 53 EVC's available in this state 16 are vacant or 30%.

Im not bashing the NRA, just wondering where they are. Are any EVC's members here, if so speak up.

EVCs??? This state has NRA Members' Councils. See http://www.calnra.com/

I think they gave up on the state, thats just my opinion and there really is not any recent legislation to demostrate otherwise. CG and CRPA seem to get very involved and I if I ever got into trouble related to firearms, CG is whom I would turn to. There is plenty of evidence that can be found in other states or on the national scene, just not California.
Have you looked? This state has NRA Members' Councils. See http://www.calnra.com/

Lets see if the NRA is up in Sac on June 17th to counter the Brady Bunch. Lets see if they rally us...they wont. CG and the CRPA will make the effort.
Rally?? Are you saying you want to organize a "rally" in Sacramento???

Please refer to http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=98757&highlight=rally

BTW, the last one netted about 48 people, including Capitol Staff. But we were successful generating thousands of calls, letters, faxes, and emails into the Capitol. But that is not unusual for us to do.

I will continue to pay my donations as I have, as my son does, as my daughter does to support 2A nationwide.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!!!!!!

Please refer to the following post http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2400637&postcount=162

I look forward to meeting you.

Paul

Kestryll
04-30-2009, 11:51 AM
I really want to point this out to those saying the NRA does not have a presence here in California or that someone else is doing 'more', doing it better or is more in touch with gun owners.

This is the NRA's California Representative posting direct answers within a DAY and offering his phone number to answer questions personally.

This is direct one-to-one contact with the person on the ground in Sacramento.
That's darn hard to beat for ANY 2nd Amendment group.

(Except maybe CGF.. ;) )

H Paul Payne
05-01-2009, 5:38 PM
Those are the loudest crickets I have ever heard....... I guess I'll just have to be patient.

Paul

:gene:

Hopi
05-01-2009, 5:39 PM
Those are the loudest crickets I have ever heard....... I guess I'll just have to be patient.

Paul

:gene:

Paul-
keep up the great work. We all knew what to expect when you posted your response. Crickets indeed.....

7x57
05-01-2009, 5:57 PM
This is the NRA's California Representative posting direct answers within a DAY and offering his phone number to answer questions personally.

This is direct one-to-one contact with the person on the ground in Sacramento.
That's darn hard to beat for ANY 2nd Amendment group.


Shh. You're contradicting Sacred Received Truth about the NRA. How can you attack these poor people's religion? :rolleyes:


(Except maybe CGF.. ;) )

But considering how hard it is for *any* "brick and mortar" group to react as fast as a net-centric group, it's pretty good no matter what.

7x57

hoffmang
05-01-2009, 6:17 PM
But considering how hard it is for *any* "brick and mortar" group to react as fast as a net-centric group, it's pretty good no matter what.


Here here on that. CGF is a bit of a different animal but we love the fact that the NRA has our back and we're happy to have theirs to the extent we can help.

-Gene

7222 Hawker
05-02-2009, 1:10 AM
Look, I'm an NRA member and i send them money every month. BUT - I also wonder where the heck the are when it comes to CA. We are the most supressed society in the country but where are the battle cries? CRICKETS......... from the NRA. Given up on CA? I sure hope not. It should be the front lines.

wildhawker
05-02-2009, 6:48 AM
Look, I'm an NRA member and i send them money every month. BUT - I also wonder where the heck the are when it comes to CA. We are the most supressed society in the country but where are the battle cries? CRICKETS......... from the NRA. Given up on CA? I sure hope not. It should be the front lines.

I suggest that you go back and re-read this thread in its entirety before furthering your arguments in this forum.

Does it make sense to you that an organization would be in play without "battle cries"? The SEALs don't enter a structure by waiting for the Comanche moon, raising tomahawks high and letting out a war cry. This battle is far more strategic and sophisticated than that, and we, as observers, must also be more strategic and sophisticated in turn. With that in mind, allow yourself to believe that there are things in politics we do not see, or hear- this should be a concept gunnies here in CA should be quite familiar with.

Here is a search (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk&ie=UTF-8&q=what+has+NRA+done) which will help shed some light on what, exactly, the NRA has done here in California.

If you are insistent that the NRA does nothing for us here in California, why not get involved and see for yourself? That is, unless you're the type that does even less for our 2A fight than the lowly NRA, which does almost nothing (in your worldview). $35 checks and the monthly offering plate isn't enough anymore- time to sound YOUR battle cry, 7222 Hawker. The front lines are right in front of you.

Now I need to finish my coffee and get headed over to our little booth of 2A evangelism at the Cow Palace.

7x57
05-02-2009, 7:52 AM
Alan Gura won the case in the court of law, but the NRA won the case in the court of public opinion.


Kind of a day late and a dollar short, I'm just going to say that this is a very important point. Most of the country believes the 2A is an individual right, and that is not from a lawsuit. It is from decades of work. Well, and being right helps. :-)

Some places the NRA is a cultural institution, and that's saved us from more gun laws than have ever passed.

7x57

dwtt
05-02-2009, 9:46 PM
If you are insistent that the NRA does nothing for us here in California, why not get involved and see for yourself? That is, unless you're the type that does even less for our 2A fight than the lowly NRA, which does almost nothing (in your worldview). $35 checks and the monthly offering plate isn't enough anymore- time to sound YOUR battle cry, 7222 Hawker. The front lines are right in front of you.

This was said in response to the OP's challenge for proof that the NRA was doing something in CA. We know how that turned out, even when Paul Payne personally offered to help him get involved with his local member's council.

Hey, what if I started saying a bunch of bad things about the NRA in CA? Would Paul Payne come by the Alameda County member's council meeting this Tuesday to whack me on the head? :) The pizza there is pretty good.

7x57
05-02-2009, 9:54 PM
Hey, what if I started saying a bunch of bad things about the NRA in CA? Would Paul Payne come by the Alameda County member's council meeting this Tuesday to whack me on the head? :) The pizza there is pretty good.

Hmm. If that works we could have him practically living out of his car for months, visiting everyone across the state. :43:

He'd probably do it too, but we just can't do that to a guy still recovering from the last car accident. :eek:

7x57

wildhawker
05-02-2009, 9:58 PM
This was said in response to the OP's challenge for proof that the NRA was doing something in CA. We know how that turned out, even when Paul Payne personally offered to help him get involved with his local member's council.

Hey, what if I started saying a bunch of bad things about the NRA in CA? Would Paul Payne come by the Alameda County member's council meeting this Tuesday to whack me on the head? :) The pizza there is pretty good.

Not sure I follow- my response was directed at the statements made within a specific follow-up post, not the OP.

M. Sage
05-03-2009, 5:25 AM
So then can I order my standard mags, Colt ARs and MP5s. Oh wait not yet, well that doesnt sound like the 2A I know?

Jeez, this stuff didn't happen to us overnight. You expect an overnight fix?

Are you someone who takes diet pills expecting to get in shape or something? It's going to take work and time to reverse what took work and time to cause.

There's no instant win. There's no magic bullets, magic pills or magic beans to give us our due.

It really bugs me when people are unrealistic in their expectations. You can have it cheaper, faster, better.... now pick two, because you can't have all three. And sometimes you can't even get two!

Your right I'm more anti-NRA than I am about supporting any Org.

Please take that knife away from your nose...

You're just anti-NRA and not pro-anything? That's actually sad. I guess the old saw about "you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" fits this situation...

Support wins battles. You fight for something with somebody. Fighting purely against is just negative thinking, which is a way to fail. When you go shooting, if you think "don't flinch, don't flinch, don't flinch", you'll flinch. You have to concentrate on being steady.

My point? Negative thinking begets negative results.

I am the NRA. I KNOW what I have done for your 2nd Amendment rights. I will excuse you for enjoying my hard work, and subsequently allow you to thank the NRA's hard work for any number of 2nd Amendment freedoms you still hold, when you come to fully realize them.

I've never been paid a dime by the NRA or anyone else for my efforts - I have been entirely volunteer, with the NRA guiding the way, and I am proud of that. I only wish I could do more at this point in my life.

I'm just one guy, yet, I am STILL the NRA of which you wish to deride. And the NRA is comprised of a LOT of us "just-one-guy" (or gal) types.

I am not obligated to report to you, especially as you are a self pro-claimed adversary, and thusly, from your posts here, it sounds to me that you are quite likely an adversary of the 2nd Amendment, wearing sheep's clothing.

Confounding, is it not? To be so full of angst it materializes into apathy? That is the by-product of the work adverse, who then adopt the role of being effort-free critics, their self-appointed job; hey, someone has to sit all cushy at the front of the boat and call out the rowing strokes right? You would be of better use in grabbing an oar!

I have nothing wrong with critics so long as they put in their time, even those working with the NRA yet critical of the NRA - I would give you my full attention.

Instead, you are not a part of the NRA, and to make matters worse, you are apathetic. In some ways that is good, because your apathy, along with a large portion of California citizens' apathy over their 2nd Amendment rights, is my motivation to work harder. One day they will wake up as will you. Stick around here, do some reading, and you might.

But what are you? What have you done? Quite clearly you haven't even gotten into the boat - you're trying to call the strokes from shore!

You get a glance, and then just as quickly pass into insignificance as we move upstream. We are too busy rowing together to hear you.

I am the NRA. We are the NRA. We are rowing against the river of contempt for the 2nd Amendment.

Good luck.

.

Epic post! This is the best I've read in a long time!! :thumbsup:

Even though I don't agree with the OP, you don't prove a negative.

Perhaps you can't, but the OP came along with accusations and cannot prove them. If you say that someone is/isn't doing something, you better be prepared to back that statement up with facts and logic.

I'd say that you can prove a negative in some cases, too. If I hire a plumber to put a new sink in, I can prove it if he doesn't. If you hire me to put a new radiator in your truck, you can prove it if I don't.

remington
05-03-2009, 7:57 AM
Paul,

Thank you for your response and generoisity in assisting me and others in the NRA. I will be giving you a call. I am out of town this week (and just got back from AZ last night) but look forward to attending future meetings and being involved. I have set up the alerts as you instructed. I will call you Monday.

As the OP I was impressed with energy and passion on all sides of this post. I think that part of the problem is the amount of information that is available, especially on CG. I have never seen the NRA Council and perhaps the link or portal from the NRA.org is not there, all that kept coming up when trying to get involved was the EVC page. Does not matter now since I now know the contact information. But navigating thru the NRA's is not that simple.

My intention as the OP was not to bash the NRA, but to ask a question and raise some attention. I feel that the question was answered and I myself have learned alot about other organizations that support the 2A.

I went to Cabelas on Friday on PHX while I was there. Plenty of AR's, PLENTY of .223, about 40 guns set up on table that were used, ready for cash and carry. My girlfriend did not really get why I was in a bad mood coming back to CA yesterday. I told her because I was leaving America and going to back to CA.

Regardless of organization we all support, the 2A is a battlefield in CA as we all know. I intend on putting my money where my mouth is and getting involved in my region, I encourage others to do so as well.

remington
05-03-2009, 8:02 AM
This was said in response to the OP's challenge for proof that the NRA was doing something in CA. We know how that turned out, even when Paul Payne personally offered to help him get involved with his local member's council.

No, you don't know how that turned out. If you mean why I did not repsond, simple answer. I was not at a computer that I could respond.

nicki
05-03-2009, 11:28 AM
Where is the NRA, in Phoenix.

Good place to go, smooze, talk with members from other states.

Nicki

H Paul Payne
05-03-2009, 11:43 AM
This was said in response to the OP's challenge for proof that the NRA was doing something in CA. We know how that turned out, even when Paul Payne personally offered to help him get involved with his local member's council.

Come-on! Let's give each other a break. After all, we are all on the same side. It just takes us a while to get to know each other. I honestly doubt that Remington (or many others out there) are against us. The guy just asked a question, and to me - that means he is seeking information. Now that he has received some very basic information, he can use that to begin to make his decisions regarding Second Amendment activism.

No, you don't know how that turned out. If you mean why I did not repsond, simple answer. I was not at a computer that I could respond.

Even with my more limited work schedule (due to physical injuries) I sometimes don't have access to a computer for several days a at time. And some of us (not me) have a life outside of Second Amendment activism.

Hey, what if I started saying a bunch of bad things about the NRA in CA? Would Paul Payne come by the Alameda County member's council meeting this Tuesday to whack me on the head? :) The pizza there is pretty good.

As you know, I've been there many times, and the pizza (at Sergio's) is very good. :)

But head-whacking is just not my style. And you don't have to say anything bad to get me to show-up. Just ask, and I will be there if I can make it. Please just remember that I am only working about 40 - 60 hours per week now and don't expect to be on my full schedule for several more months, so my out-of-town travel is somewhat limited and I must schedule it around my doctors' appointments.

Paul

M. Sage
05-03-2009, 8:44 PM
Please just remember that I am only working about 40 - 60 hours per week now and don't expect to be on my full schedule for several more months, so my out-of-town travel is somewhat limited and I must schedule it around my doctors' appointments.

Paul

Holy crap! I would hate to see your full schedule! :eek: I thought I was a hard-working dude!

Hope you feel better soon!

If you get out San Antonio way, try to drop me a line. I know a few good spots for dinner. :D

H Paul Payne
05-03-2009, 9:49 PM
Holy crap! I would hate to see your full schedule! :eek: I thought I was a hard-working dude!

Hope you feel better soon!

If you get out San Antonio way, try to drop me a line. I know a few good spots for dinner. :D
My "normal" (for me) work schedule is about 80 - 100 hours per week. Yes, I'm a work-aholic, but I don't have kids (but I do have a few dozen Members' Councils ;)). Instead of having kids, my wife and I decided that I would dedicate my life to the NRA and the Second Amendment. It's one of the personal choices that each of us make as we go through life.

San Antonio is one of the few places in Texas that I've never been, but always wanted to visit. When I plan to finally get there, I'll take you up on the dinner.

Paul