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View Full Version : TSA Approved handguns.


truthseeker
04-27-2009, 4:33 PM
I am referring to this website

http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/editorial_2273.shtm

Some of the handguns are NOT on the CA Roster.

So, are pilots in CA allowed to pick guns which are not on the roster?

If so, can't that also be added to the list of reasons which make the CA roster go away?

WokMaster1
04-27-2009, 4:59 PM
TSA staff are armed now? WTH:p?

elrcastor
04-27-2009, 5:02 PM
kind of a dupe of this

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=177922

Suvorov
04-27-2009, 7:29 PM
Pilots are NOT allowed to choose their duty weapons.

Pilots who do carry firearms are Deputized Federal Law Enforcement Officers (FFDOs) and are issued the HK USP .40 Compact with LEM Trigger.

HK (as well as Glock and SIG) have special pricing available to FFDOs and Airline Pilots in general however as far as I know, all State Laws apply.

Last time I checked the USP LEM is not on the roster.

Spyder
04-27-2009, 8:32 PM
If they're LEO, the roster doesn't apply, right?

Suvorov
04-27-2009, 9:01 PM
If they're LEO, the roster doesn't apply, right?


I've wondered that myself. I do not know any airline pilots who live in California and have purchased the USP through the HK special offer and right now I do not have the money to try. :(

I'm not sure if the State of California views FFDOs the same as all other LEOs, but FFDO SOP specifically prohibits FFDOs from using their credentials to obtain non-TSA approved firearms and equipment that are not available to the general public in their state of residence.

Suvorov
04-27-2009, 9:08 PM
Just looked and the USP 40 Compact LEM IS on the list so it is a moot point anyhow.

USP40C-LEM / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" .40 S&W 2/20/2010

xLusi0n
04-27-2009, 9:41 PM
Anyone know if there's any specific reason they decided with the .40 S&W round for airplane carry?

slick_711
04-27-2009, 9:43 PM
I don't think the FFDOs are considered full-time LEOs and as such are not entitled to such exemptions in CA.

swaits
04-27-2009, 10:14 PM
FFDOs are Federal LEOs. Jurisdiction is limited to the cockpit. Obviously they have to travel to and from work.

truthseeker
04-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Pilots are NOT allowed to choose their duty weapons.

Pilots who do carry firearms are Deputized Federal Law Enforcement Officers (FFDOs) and are issued the HK USP .40 Compact with LEM Trigger.

HK (as well as Glock and SIG) have special pricing available to FFDOs and Airline Pilots in general however as far as I know, all State Laws apply.

Last time I checked the USP LEM is not on the roster.

I know a pilot that works for SouthWest, I will ask him what he carries. I spoke with him before about this, but I don't remember what he said, because he is kind of a loud-mouth and I usually block out his voice. :D

truthseeker
04-27-2009, 10:42 PM
FFDOs are Federal LEOs. Jurisdiction is limited to the cockpit. Obviously they have to travel to and from work.

I am NOT so sure about that. The guy that I know WAS in the Coast Guard as a pilot, but he was NOT a MP or anything close to being a LEO.

hoffmang
04-27-2009, 10:50 PM
I believe that the credentials issued by the FFDO program would suffice to exempt an FFDO pilot from the Roster.

-Gene

audiophil2
04-27-2009, 11:28 PM
FFDO does not equal LEO. Otherwise it would be FFDLEO, which does not exist.
FFDO=Federal Flight Deck Officer=flight crew member trained and authorized to use a firearm to defend an aircraft from being taken control of by an unauthorized individual(s).
An FFDO cannot travel to/from work (cockpit) with his firearm unless it is securely locked in the standard holster and in a non-descript (plain) travel bag so he looks like any other pilot walking around the airport.
Some airports have special security lockers for weapon storage so FFDOs don't have to lug thier gun around while on layovers. This sorta emphasizes the fact that FFDOs can't do much with thier guns outside the cockpit.
An FFDO is not like an LEO because he cannot carry out 99.9% of actions a sworn peace officer is authorized to perform.

Summary:
FFDOs are not cops and are not exempt from any laws that Joe Public must abide by outside the cockpit. Inside the cockpit the FFDO can only defend his plane from a terrorist.

what2be
04-28-2009, 12:04 AM
If they're LEO, the roster doesn't apply, right?

TSA officers are NOT sworn peace officers, therefore NOT LEO.

WHy do you guys keep thinking these morons are LEO's.

I would be embarrased as hell if I was a LEO and people compared those idiots to me.

glockwise2000
04-28-2009, 12:06 AM
Anyone know if there's any specific reason they decided with the .40 S&W round for airplane carry?

I guess it is bigger than a 9er and less recoil than a 45. Correct me if I am wrong.:rolleyes:

slick_711
04-28-2009, 12:20 AM
I believe that the credentials issued by the FFDO program would suffice to exempt an FFDO pilot from the Roster.

-Gene

Sir you may believe that and I respect your opinion in all things legalese. But I don't believe it, and in this case I'm the guy behind the counter at the gun shop. ;)

TSA officers are NOT sworn peace officers, therefore NOT LEO.

WHy do you guys keep thinking these morons are LEO's.

I would be embarrased as hell if I was a LEO and people compared those idiots to me.

Easy there pal. They're not LEOs to my knowledge, but that doesn't make them morons either. They lack the specific training and knowledge of an LEO with regard to law enforcement manners. But then, do you know how to fly a 767? I doubt it.

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 7:34 AM
I know a pilot that works for SouthWest, I will ask him what he carries. I spoke with him before about this, but I don't remember what he said, because he is kind of a loud-mouth and I usually block out his voice. :D

Trust me on this one ;)

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 7:42 AM
FFDO does not equal LEO. Otherwise it would be FFDLEO, which does not exist.
FFDO=Federal Flight Deck Officer=flight crew member trained and authorized to use a firearm to defend an aircraft from being taken control of by an unauthorized individual(s).
An FFDO cannot travel to/from work (cockpit) with his firearm unless it is securely locked in the standard holster and in a non-descript (plain) travel bag so he looks like any other pilot walking around the airport.
Some airports have special security lockers for weapon storage so FFDOs don't have to lug thier gun around while on layovers. This sorta emphasizes the fact that FFDOs can't do much with thier guns outside the cockpit.
An FFDO is not like an LEO because he cannot carry out 99.9% of actions a sworn peace officer is authorized to perform.

Summary:
FFDOs are not cops and are not exempt from any laws that Joe Public must abide by outside the cockpit. Inside the cockpit the FFDO can only defend his plane from a terrorist.

Your statement is for the most part 100% accurate, however an FFDO IS considered a Federal Law Enforcement Officer and entitled to the same legal protections as other Federal LEOs while they are in the commission of their duties. Outside of the cockpit, they are just "Joe Public."

You are correct that the FFDOs lack most of the other specialized training that Federal LEOs (or State/Municipal) have, but then again it is not really needed for them to operate, plus training time and money are already quite limited.

audi2539
04-28-2009, 8:02 AM
If I saw a pilot boarding a plane with an AK-47 I would only applaud - the ultimate detergent.

ohsmily
04-28-2009, 8:59 AM
If I saw a pilot boarding a plane with an AK-47 I would only applaud - the ultimate detergent.

I thought this was the ultimate detergent?!?!? :confused:
http://avronforkids.com/images/114-794.jpg

p24
04-28-2009, 9:33 AM
I thought this was the ultimate detergent?!?!? :confused:
http://avronforkids.com/images/114-794.jpg

i just LMAO'd :thumbsup:

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 9:44 AM
TSA officers are NOT sworn peace officers, therefore NOT LEO.

WHy do you guys keep thinking these morons are LEO's.

I would be embarrased as hell if I was a LEO and people compared those idiots to me.

Not sure if you are referring to TSA Agents (baggage screeners and the like or FFDOs)?

In reference to the Baggage Screeners, they are not LEOs and they come in many different varieties. Some are very good and some are not, most of them are just trying to enforce the laws and rules as best they can and they have no more power to change them than you do. As sick and tired as you may be from having to go through security (don't blame them for you having to take off your shoes, blame Richard Reid), they are just as sick and tired of having to put up with pissed off passengers. Some are morons and some are not, but they are all part of a multi-layered approach to security and necessary.

FFDOs ARE Deputised Federal Law Enforcement Officers.

FFDOs are also SWORN in when they recieve their Federal Credentials, those same Federal Credentials state they they ARE Deputized Federal Law Enforcement Officers.

And the vast majority of the FFDOs I have flown with are far from morons (a few slip through the cracks just like everywhere else).

truthseeker
04-28-2009, 10:46 AM
Hmmmmm, so what "special training" do they have to complete to become a FFDO?

If they have no special training other than a few "handgun safety courses" and their "good cause" is to protect the lives of their passengers, then why can't I take the same course/courses and use the same "good cause" since I have to protect the lives of my wife and two sons?

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 12:53 PM
Hmmmmm, so what "special training" do they have to complete to become a FFDO?

If they have no special training other than a few "handgun safety courses" and their "good cause" is to protect the lives of their passengers, then why can't I take the same course/courses and use the same "good cause" since I have to protect the lives of my wife and two sons?


They complete a long selection as well as background investigation, then a one week training course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Artisia NM (same place that FAMs, BP, and a few other organizations do their training). The training is quite good, although sadly short (for a variety of reasons). Training consists of firearms training, hand to hand combative training, and legal training.

The reason you can't take the same course/courses is that there is no Federal Mandate from Congress signed into law by the President for you to do so.

I don't think it is fair that we live in a State where LEOs have extra rights (even though we have established that FFDOs do not enjoy these extra rights), and I am standing side by side with you to end it, but to question the training of the volunteers who make up the FFDO program solves nothing.

truthseeker
04-28-2009, 1:19 PM
I am merely trying to find out what they have to do to be able to conceal carry.

I am just pissed off that they can carry while I cannot, even though I know for a fact that I have more weapons/safety training than most of them.

And before you ask, No I am not a LEO, however I was in the military for 5 years and that is all I am going to say.

DDT
04-28-2009, 2:25 PM
I was sort of wondering if they qualify for LEOSA CCW exemption. Since they are deputized LEO and are entitled to carry on their job I would suspect that LEOSA would apply. Now, LEOSA doesn't have any limitation for "duty weapon" so a pilot who is an FFDO should be able to CCW any firearm in any state.

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 3:22 PM
I am merely trying to find out what they have to do to be able to conceal carry.

I am just pissed off that they can carry while I cannot, even though I know for a fact that I have more weapons/safety training than most of them.

And before you ask, No I am not a LEO, however I was in the military for 5 years and that is all I am going to say.

I'm pissed off that you can't carry either and yes, I'm sure you have more small arms training that most of them, but are you saying that because YOU can't carry, they shouldn't either? Seems a little shortsighted. The fact is that airline pilots are already in command of a guided missile that can kill thousands, if they can be trusted with a transport category aircraft, then really a .40 pistol is not much. The FAMS constantly state that they would not be able to train the FFDOs in as short of a time frame if they were the typical BP or other LE type applicant, but because most Airline Pilots have already had military training (still the case and guess what, a lot of them are former ground pounders with similar training to you - not just flyboys) and have been trained their whole career to think and act under pressure as well as follow SOPs.

The reason they can carry and you can't (even though they are not authorized to carry concealed on daily non-work related duty) is because Congress made a law that authorized them to and the President signed that law.

Rather than being pissed that they get a gun and you don't, why not embrace the ones that are fighting along side you for gun rights so that one day a law might be signed (other than the one signed over 200 years ago) that allows you to carry?

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 3:23 PM
I was sort of wondering if they qualify for LEOSA CCW exemption. Since they are deputized LEO and are entitled to carry on their job I would suspect that LEOSA would apply. Now, LEOSA doesn't have any limitation for "duty weapon" so a pilot who is an FFDO should be able to CCW any firearm in any state.

They do not as far as I know :(

truthseeker
04-28-2009, 3:59 PM
I'm pissed off that you can't carry either and yes, I'm sure you have more small arms training that most of them, but are you saying that because YOU can't carry, they shouldn't either? Seems a little shortsighted. The fact is that airline pilots are already in command of a guided missile that can kill thousands, if they can be trusted with a transport category aircraft, then really a .40 pistol is not much. The FAMS constantly state that they would not be able to train the FFDOs in as short of a time frame if they were the typical BP or other LE type applicant, but because most Airline Pilots have already had military training (still the case and guess what, a lot of them are former ground pounders with similar training to you - not just flyboys) and have been trained their whole career to think and act under pressure as well as follow SOPs.

The reason they can carry and you can't (even though they are not authorized to carry concealed on daily non-work related duty) is because Congress made a law that authorized them to and the President signed that law.

Rather than being pissed that they get a gun and you don't, why not embrace the ones that are fighting along side you for gun rights so that one day a law might be signed (other than the one signed over 200 years ago) that allows you to carry?

No, what I am saying is "I want the same RIGHTS as the Pilots"!

If they can CCW under the "good cause" of "protecting lives", than I should qualify by protecting my families lives!

My families lives are just as important as those on an airplane!

Suvorov
04-28-2009, 5:48 PM
No, what I am saying is "I want the same RIGHTS as the Pilots"!

If they can CCW under the "good cause" of "protecting lives", than I should qualify by protecting my families lives!

My families lives are just as important as those on an airplane!

I can't argue with you there, I hope every law abiding citizen in the PRK will soon be able to enjoy that right (including FFDOs who want to protect their families while not at work). :thumbsup:

JDay
04-28-2009, 5:56 PM
No, what I am saying is "I want the same RIGHTS as the Pilots"!

If they can CCW under the "good cause" of "protecting lives", than I should qualify by protecting my families lives!

My families lives are just as important as those on an airplane!

Pilots only get to carry on the plane to keep a hijacker from gaining control of the cockpit, they don't carry to protect the passengers.

truthseeker
04-28-2009, 7:13 PM
Pilots only get to carry on the plane to keep a hijacker from gaining control of the cockpit, they don't carry to protect the passengers.

I understand that, BUT, the point I am trying to get across is that pilots with a "little" training are trusted to carry a handgun on a plane, yet I cannot carry ANYWHERE even though I have better training then most of them!