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View Full Version : Caution: Roster-exempt single-action revolvers must have > 3" barrels!


bwiese
04-27-2009, 1:18 PM
Please continue to note that "single-action revolver" does not necessarily mean "Roster-exempt single-action revolver. Such revolvers must also be 'dimensionally compliant' per barrel and overall lengths specified in 12133PC to be Roster exempt.

[Until the Roster is killed and/or until we pull the trigger on NeRFs, please keep this warning in mind.]

It appears that some non-C&R/non-antique revolvers may have been transferred into CA or sold from dealer inventory, under the 12133PC single-action exemption - without having the minimum 3" barrel length.

Such revolvers with bbls under 3" long are not 12133PC "Roster-exempt single-action revolvers", and would have to be Rostered - or affixed with a 3" bbl before crossing into CA; or affixed with a 3" bbl before entering CA FFL inventory from a CA seller for resale within CA.

The particular motivation for this post relates to the general category of "Sheriff's model" and "Storekeeper model"-style single action revolvers having barrels approx 3" long - some may have been cut down years ago from longer bbls. [These revolvers typically do not have ejector rods/shrouds attached to the barrel, although this particular distinction has no bearing on the law.] Quite a few may be 2.75" - 3" range, though most very recent single-action revolvers seem to bottom out around 3" bbl length.

7.5" min overall length criteria is also necessary for Roster-exempt single-action status, but this requirement is - as best I can see - generally directly follows if the wheelgun has a min. 3" barrel length (possible exceptions may be some weird smaller S/A 22LRs with very small grips).

Remember, this is just as applicable to "cowboy gun" single-action revolvers as it is to revolvers having a nontraditional appearance which may on first blush appear to be non-single-action. (Thus, say, a snubby S&W Model 60 cannot have just its DA sear removed to render it a Roster-exempt single-action.)12133 PC.

(a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that
has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than 3", and
meets any of the following specifications: (1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as
defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2"
when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

(3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2"
when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is
currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the
provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Sec. 925 of Title 18 of the
United States Code.




[ETA: updated/corrected thread title.]

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:22 PM
correct, that is why NAA has Rostered two of their mini revolvers, because they don't meet the dimensional exemption.

bwiese
04-27-2009, 1:25 PM
Yes it seems some of the SASS cowboys may be "cowboys".

wash
04-27-2009, 1:39 PM
How do they measure the barrel?

Automatics are from the muzzle to the breach face but some people measure just the barrel portion on revolvers, leaving out the cylinder.

If it's measured from muzzle to breach that would change the limits significantly.

bwiese
04-27-2009, 2:12 PM
How do they measure the barrel?

Automatics are from the muzzle to the breach face but some people measure just the barrel portion on revolvers, leaving out the cylinder.

If it's measured from muzzle to breach that would change the limits significantly.

For the purposes of this section for revolvers, I would consider the measurement to be 'barrel tip to rear of forcing cone', and not include any barrel/cylinder gap and especially not the length of cylinder bore.

wash
04-27-2009, 2:26 PM
I haven't read the law but unless they spell out the forcing cone to muzzle measurement, this might be a possible point of attack.

I'm not really in to mini-revolvers, I just have a general interest in messing with the BOF.

bwiese
04-27-2009, 2:47 PM
I haven't read the law but unless they spell out the forcing cone to muzzle measurement, this might be a possible point of attack.


I don't think a rational definition of 'barrel length' would include any length from the "cylinder".

Given it's apparently left undefined in regulation I believe the answer would be from tip-to-toe of the barrel, period.

WileyWilly
04-27-2009, 6:45 PM
This is from the DOJ New Resident and Intra-familial Transfer forms:

Part B. Handgun Information
For each handgun, you must provide the identification information requested. Please refer to your handgun owner
information or the samples below to assist you in providing the required information:
Usually located on the frame of the handgun. May be all numeric or a combination of
alpha and numeric characters.
Serial Number
Model The model name of the handgun (e.g., 3032 Tomcat, KP95, 17C, Mini 14).
Caliber The caliber of the handgun (e.g., .38, .45, .308).
Barrel Length Enter the barrel length as stated in your owner information, or measure the barrel length
by closing the action of the handgun and inserting a wooden dowel down the barrel until it
stops. Mark the dowel with a pen at the muzzle. Remove the dowel and measure the
distance between the inserted end of the dowel and the pen mark.
Handgun Origin The country of origin of the handgun (e.g., United States, Russia, China, Italy).
Make The manufacturer of the handgun (e.g., Beretta, Ruger, Glock, Smith and Wesson).
This form may not be used to report ownership of assault weapons defined in PC section 12276, 12276.1, or
12276.5. It is the responsibility of the applicant to determine if the firearm being reported is an assault weapon. A
list of assault weapons is available on the Bureau of Firearms website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms. Questions may
be directed to the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

Sorry for the format, they were in PDF and I don't know how to copy and paste it so that it is correctly formatted.
WW

wash
04-27-2009, 7:16 PM
That's what I'm talking about.

This might be good for an underground regulation thing if the DOJ rejects a revolver for having a short barrel.

Now who's going to buy a .357 Maximum Blackhawk and put an itty-bitty barrel on it?

bohoki
04-27-2009, 9:12 PM
hmm how about welding a flashhider on it

that'll show em

FortCourageArmory
04-28-2009, 8:36 AM
Yes it seems some of the SASS cowboys may be "cowboys".
What are you meaning, Bill? I'm trying to figure out if that's a wink-wink-nudge-nudge friendly poke in the ribs or are you making an accusation? I ask only becasue I am a "SASS cowboy" as are many of my customers.

rivviepop
04-28-2009, 9:47 AM
Are pre-1890 and/or C&R revolvers exempt completely from this rule?

ke6guj
04-28-2009, 10:06 AM
C&R handguns of any age are exempt from the roster. Not limited to just revolvers, but to other handgun types as well.

rivviepop
04-28-2009, 11:19 AM
C&R handguns of any age are exempt from the roster. Not limited to just revolvers, but to other handgun types as well.

I was referring to the PC as in the first post; 12133(a)(1) it says "and", so that covers my one part of the question (I didn't read close enough there). It would appear a post-1900 single action less than 3 inch would be illegal, even though it's a C&R by the 50yr rule.

yellowfin
04-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Original Detective Specials are on the C&R list, yes?

bwiese
04-28-2009, 11:26 AM
I was referring to the PC as in the first post; 12133(a)(1) it says "and", so that covers my one part of the question (I didn't read close enough there). It would appear a post-1900 single action less than 3 inch would be illegal, even though it's a C&R by the 50yr rule.

Rivvie,

Glad you read the fine print - however, elsewhere C&Rs are wholly exempt from the Roster. It's in the prefatory section of "Unsafe Handguns" code, 12125(a)(3) PC.

So even if 12133 were to have some drama about C&R bbl lengths, 12125 overrides.

bwiese
04-28-2009, 11:26 AM
Original Detective Specials are on the C&R list, yes?

A Colt Det Spl over 50 years old should be C&R.

ke6guj
04-28-2009, 11:33 AM
I was referring to the PC as in the first post; 12133(a)(1) it says "and", so that covers my one part of the question (I didn't read close enough there). It would appear a post-1900 single action less than 3 inch would be illegal, even though it's a C&R by the 50yr rule.


As Bill mentioned, C&R handguns are totally exempt from the roster,

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

rivviepop
04-28-2009, 11:39 AM
I keep seeing the word "listed" when C&R is referenced -- is there such a thing as an "unlisted" C&R handgun that would not qualify for these exemptions to the 3 inch rule? For instance, maybe a revolver handmade in someone's garage, an import from Argentina, whatever...