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View Full Version : CCW loophole in 12025(A)?? Your thoughts??


Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 12:42 PM
I think I just found a loophole in 12025 (A):

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.


So if you go out in pairs, say you and your wife. You each carry an unloaded, concealed pistol. Both pistols are different makes and calibers such that mags and ammo are not interchangeable. You each carry the mag(s) for the other's pistol. That way you are carrying only an unloaded concealed pistol which does not seem to be a crime if I am reading the code correctly, as long as you do not have ammo for that pistol on you. In the event something goes down, you & wife hand eachother mags and you lock and load! (Or just you carry pistol and wife just carries mags/ammo)

So to simply state: Concealed carry of an unloaded handgun with no ammo capable of being used in that gun is not a crime if I read that section correctly?

So the question would be, would having the person standing next to you with the mag/ammo for your pistol be considered having the ammo "readily accessible"?

pullnshoot25
04-27-2009, 12:47 PM
Wow.never thought of this. And it seems downright cool. Anyone?

DDT
04-27-2009, 12:52 PM
So the question would be, would having the person standing next to you with the mag/ammo for your pistol be considered having the ammo "readily accessible"?

My comment was mooted by Mudcampers response below. That's what I get for not reviewing the full PC quoted.

MudCamper
04-27-2009, 12:53 PM
It looks like you are quoting 12025(b)(6)(A) which is a sentence enhancement for having ammunition on you while violating 12025. Why would enhancing your concealed violation help you? I think you are misreading PC badly.

Edit to add: Yes, the only (A) in 12025 is the sentence enhancement:

(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:

(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.



What this is saying is, if you violate 12025 (carry concealed) and you have ammo, it's a felony wobbler rather than just a misdemeanor.

N6ATF
04-27-2009, 12:53 PM
I think I remember this, but in a gang member context.

BONECUTTER
04-27-2009, 12:54 PM
So the question would be, would having the person standing next to you with the mag/ammo for your pistol be considered having the ammo "readily accessible"?

Im going to say a jury would prabably thing so....
Unless you can convince them a good reason why you carry the gun and she carries the ammo. The whole reason for doing it is to have ammo "readily accessible" :cool:

MudCamper
04-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Look, you do NOT need ammo even present to violate 12025:

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:

(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:

(1) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.

(2) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.

(3) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
(commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

(4) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
as defined in this section, or the person is within a class of
persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to
Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, as a felony.

(5) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a
person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by
imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county
jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to
(6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one
year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine.



The text the OP is quoting has to to with sentencing.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:06 PM
It looks like you are quoting 12025(b)(6)(A) which is a sentence enhancement for having ammunition on you while violating 12025. Why would enhancing your concealed violation help you? I think you are misreading PC badly.

Edit to add: Yes, the only (A) in 12025 is the sentence enhancement:



What this is saying is, if you violate 12025 (carry concealed) and you have ammo, it's a felony wobbler rather than just a misdemeanor.

Yes....I think perhaps I did read it badly, but I think your interpretation is also wrong. I see that (A) is regards to someone who is either illegally in possesion of the weapon or has previous convictions.

Interestingly though is states all kind of punishments for people with previous convictions but I dont see where it says anything about someone with no prior record / 1st offense?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html

Is that one of those deals where if it doesn't specify then by default it is a misdemeanor?

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:08 PM
I wonder though if the unloaded and concealed with no ammo could be challenged under recent court rulings regarding "functional firearms"?

If the gun is unloaded and you have no ammo for it......is it really a "firearm"?

MudCamper
04-27-2009, 1:11 PM
I see that (A) is regards to someone who is either illegally in possesion of the weapon or has previous convictions

Correct. Regardless, you can't carry concealed with or without ammo.


Interestingly though is states all kind of punishments for people with previous convictions but I dont see where it says anything about someone with no prior record / 1st offense?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html

Is that one of those deals where if it doesn't specify then by default it is a misdemeanor?

A misdemeanor is a crime punishable by less than 1 year in jail and less than 1000 dollars and not punishable by imprisonment in the state prison. See PC 17 for definitions of infraction, misdemeanor, and felony.

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:12 PM
12025(b)(6) says the following:

(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.
(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

That says, if you have a loaded pistol, or the pistol and the ammo for it, AND the handgun is not registered to you, that it is a wobbler.

If the handgun was registered to you, and 12025(b)(1)-(6) did not apply to you, then 12025(b)(7) would be the punishment for unlicensed CC.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:14 PM
Correct. Regardless, you can't carry concealed with or without ammo.




A misdemeanor is a crime punishable by less than 1 year in jail and less than 1000 dollars and not punishable by imprisonment in the state prison. See PC 17 for definitions of infraction, misdemeanor, and felony.

I know that......my point was all the listed punishment sections were all in regards to someone either illegally in posession or with prior convictions. I dont see where is says the charge is for 1st offense for Avg. Joe with no priors?

MudCamper
04-27-2009, 1:17 PM
I know that......my point was all the listed punishment sections were all in regards to someone either illegally in posession or with prior convictions. I dont see where is says the charge is for 1st offense for Avg. Joe with no priors?

(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to
(6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one
year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:18 PM
12025(b)(6) says the following:



That says, if you have a loaded pistol, or the pistol and the ammo for it, AND the handgun is not registered to you, that it is a wobbler.

If the handgun was registered to you, and 12025(b)(1)-(6) did not apply to you, then 12025(b)(7) would be the punishment for unlicensed CC.


gotcha! :thumbsup:

This is why I ask questions.

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:18 PM
I know that......my point was all the listed punishment sections were all in regards to someone either illegally in posession or with prior convictions. I dont see where is says the charge is for 1st offense for Avg. Joe with no priors?

The punishment is listed at 12025(b)(7).

(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to (6) inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:26 PM
gotcha! :thumbsup:

This is why I ask questions.

glad you figured it out.

In the future, I'd suggest fully quoting the PC section that you are talking about, there is no 12025(A). But when you look at it as 12025(b)(6)(A), then you can try to better understand it. First you look at 12025(a) to determine the crime, then you look at 12025(b) to figure out the penalty.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:40 PM
glad you figured it out.

In the future, I'd suggest fully quoting the PC section that you are talking about, there is no 12025(A). But when you look at it as 12025(b)(6)(A), then you can try to better understand it. First you look at 12025(a) to determine the crime, then you look at 12025(b) to figure out the penalty.

Would you like to smack my hand now too? Here....let me hold up my hand so you can reach it from the back of your high-horse! :p

Nothing more annoying the sore winner!

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:42 PM
nevermind.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:45 PM
nevermind.

I came to ask question about a law, not to get a lesson how to prepare a proper legal citation. I even included the text of the section I was refering too. Not really in the mood for an elitest BS today if you don't mind.

ke6guj
04-27-2009, 1:51 PM
I came to ask question about a law, not to get a lesson how to prepare a proper legal citation. I even included the text of the section I was refering too. Not really in the mood for an elitest BS today if you don't mind.

If you thought that was elitist BS, then oh well.

I was attempting to help you, and part of that is to be able to properly state what code section you are refering to, and how to properly read it.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 1:54 PM
If you thought that was elitist BS, then oh well.

I was attempting to help you, and part of that is to be able to properly state what code section you are refering to, and how to properly read it.

I INCLUDED THE TEXT OF THE SECTION IN MY POST SO ANYONE READING IT WOULD NOT WHAT I WAS REFERING TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JDay
04-27-2009, 2:23 PM
I INCLUDED THE TEXT OF THE SECTION IN MY POST SO ANYONE READING IT WOULD NOT WHAT I WAS REFERING TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And he showed you the parts of the PC that proved you wrong, get over it.

Whiskey_Sauer
04-27-2009, 2:58 PM
I came to ask question about a law, not to get a lesson how to prepare a proper legal citation. I even included the text of the section I was refering too. Not really in the mood for an elitest BS today if you don't mind.

It's "elitist BS" for someone to quote the law to you correctly?

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 3:03 PM
It's "elitist BS" for someone to quote the law to you correctly?

No...I admitted I read the statute incorrectly, no problem there, that's why I ask questions....but then after that I was given a smug lesson in "this is how you properly cite a PC code section" even though I had included the text of the section I was refering to in my OP. I'm sorry.....but I thought the tone of the specific post was smug, elitest and unnecessary.

Untamed1972
04-27-2009, 3:04 PM
glad you figured it out.

In the future, I'd suggest fully quoting the PC section that you are talking about, there is no 12025(A). But when you look at it as 12025(b)(6)(A), then you can try to better understand it. First you look at 12025(a) to determine the crime, then you look at 12025(b) to figure out the penalty.

THIS is the smug, elitest BS I was refering to.

jasilva
04-27-2009, 10:38 PM
Now that we've hashed out the smugness factor....


I do believe that the penalties for first offense EVEN if both are applied do not make this a wobbler. You must have a fine of more than $1000 or more than one year in jail, adding the penalties together doesn't add up to felony penalties. Wobblers are crimes which have POSSIBLE penalties of more than 1yr/$1k, this is clearly a misdemeanor.

glockwise2000
04-27-2009, 10:56 PM
I wonder though if the unloaded and concealed with no ammo could be challenged under recent court rulings regarding "functional firearms"?

If the gun is unloaded and you have no ammo for it......is it really a "firearm"?

What's the use of an unloaded firearm in your pocket. So when an event happens, you just run and load? And hopefully didn't got shot by that time?

bluestaterebel
04-27-2009, 11:28 PM
I INCLUDED THE TEXT OF THE SECTION IN MY POST SO ANYONE READING IT WOULD NOT WHAT I WAS REFERING TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

why are you yelling?:rolleyes:

Untamed1972
04-28-2009, 7:36 AM
why are you yelling?:rolleyes:

because the person who's post I quoted obviously couldn't read the smaller type when I posted it the first time. Just trying to be helpful! :)

Untamed1972
04-28-2009, 7:41 AM
What's the use of an unloaded firearm in your pocket. So when an event happens, you just run and load? And hopefully didn't got shot by that time?

I was thinking in terms of the loophole that I thought I found. It's similar to UOC. But I carry the unloaded gun, concealed. Friend, or spouse next to me carry loaded mag. If a "non-fuctional firearm" is not considered a weapon, then one couldn't be dinged for CCW w/o a permit, because an unloaded gun and no ammo on me would not meet the definition of a firearm or weapon. In the event something goes down, person next to me hands me mag and I load and rack. No....not ideal or desireable. But a possible work-around/alternative to UOC and it's associated hassles and "no-issue" CCW counties.

aplinker
04-28-2009, 9:18 AM
You need to calm down and not bite the hand who's instructing you.

This isn't a pissing match.

Jack wasn't being the least bit elitist or high horse and he is, in fact, one of the nicest and most helpful people on this site. All he said was, when quoting PC, you should post/read the whole section instead of a single part. Not reading the whole thing is what led you to the misunderstanding.

Untamed1972
04-28-2009, 1:45 PM
You need to calm down and not bite the hand who's instructing you.

This isn't a pissing match.

Jack wasn't being the least bit elitist or high horse and he is, in fact, one of the nicest and most helpful people on this site. All he said was, when quoting PC, you should post/read the whole section instead of a single part. Not reading the whole thing is what led you to the misunderstanding.

Except that I didn't come here asking for instruction on how to prepare a proper legal citation. I asked for comment on a specific section for which I provided the text of the code in question. If it wasn't to his liking....tough! No one else felt the need to give me the smackdown for the way I quoted the section or to inform me how "badly" I read the PC. I admitted I misread the section....that's fine....that's why I ask questions. You have your opinion...I have mine. I didn't like his manner of presentation and last time I checked I do have a right to say so!

Do we really need to continue this? Let's just agree to disagree and move on.