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View Full Version : Listen to the Real Cops (Bratton, Baca got your ears on?)


Liberty1
04-26-2009, 5:59 AM
From Of Arms and the Law:

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2009/04/internatl_law_e.php#comments

Internat'l Law Enforcement Educator & Trainers on mass shootings
Posted by David Hardy · 24 April 2009 06:20 PM
The legendary Massad Ayoob is attending the annual conference of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. He writes:

"Thursday afternoon, I chaired the panel of experts discussion on deadly force issues. I had been able to assemble ten superstars of police training. [He lists them, and their credentials are indeed impressive].

One of the topics that inevitably cropped up was response to mass murders in schools and other public places. Among us was Ron Borsch, instructor at the Southeast Area Law Enforcement Academy in Ohio, who has been an advocate of “sole response” entry into such situations by the first responding officer. Though controversial in law enforcement, his theory was validated recently by the courageous 25-year-old cop who entered a mass murder scene only a few weeks ago at an old folks home, and stopped the killing with a single bullet from his Glock .40 service pistol coolly and expertly delivered to the gunman’s chest.

Borsch’s impromptu discussion revealed the fact that some 25% of mass murder shooting sprees he has researched were ended by armed private citizens. This led in turn to a discussion of the Israeli Model, in place since the Maalot massacre of schoolchildren decades ago, in which teachers and other school personnel were trained and discreetly armed with handguns, which has proven famously successful ever since in Israel. Across the ten-member panel AND the dozens of police instructors attending the discussion, not a single voice was raised against that concept, and many spoke enthusiastically in favor of it.

Don’t listen to the politically motivated figureheads. Talk to the REAL cops. They’re the ones who best understand the dynamics of violence, and of protection of the innocent from evil."

MP301
04-26-2009, 6:41 AM
Great article! Thanks for the post

hill billy
04-26-2009, 6:52 AM
Bratton can't hear you with Villar and the council's hands so far up his backside. Baca just doesn't care. He needs to be bounced.

CCWFacts
04-26-2009, 9:57 AM
“sole response” entry into such situations by the first responding officer. Though controversial in law enforcement, his theory was validated recently by the courageous 25-year-old cop who entered a mass murder scene only a few weeks ago at an old folks home, and stopped the killing with a single bullet from his Glock .40 service pistol coolly and expertly delivered to the gunman’s chest.

It may be controversial because, obviously, it's not as safe as waiting for more cops, and that itself is not as safe as waiting for SWAT, and that is not as safe as waiting for the shooter to commit suicide (ie, the Columbine protocol).

However, it's obviously the thing to do. These shooters are focused on killing. They are not focused on getting themselves into a defensive position, or looking for a counter-attack, because they've already decided for suicide.

Their kill-rate is enormously highly. I think the VT shooter was killing about 3 or 4 per minute, so waiting any amount of time for anyone else to get to the scene is going to mean more deaths.

If there were CCWers around, who had some training, they could counter-attack immediately, and could even possibly come to the assistance of the first responding officer.

Theseus
04-26-2009, 10:09 AM
But how would the CCW holder know who the real bad guy was, or when the police DID show up would they mistake the civilian shooter for the perpetrator?

It scares me when anyone but LE have guns! What are you people? Some kind of cowboys?

:rolleyes:

For some reason I just thought. . . People always bring up the OK Coral. . . Wasn't that caused by the police trying to take the guns off of some cowboys? I think we should blame that all on Wyatt.

And to get a little more back on topic, what has happened? Even police chiefs and sheriffs are to cowardly to stand up against the politicos for us. . .

CCWFacts
04-26-2009, 10:24 AM
Guys like Sheriff Baca really just don't care about how many people die in such incidents. These deaths don't cost him any votes. Issuing CCW permits might cost him some votes.

AEC1
04-26-2009, 10:36 AM
I have always said that I would quite hunting if they allowed deer to carry wepons and shoot back...

Roadrunner
04-26-2009, 11:39 AM
I seriously doubt that any of the politicians running our police departments will ever advocate for citizens having the ability to respond to a madman like the VT shooter. Can you imagine the questions that they would have to answer from their city council? Why, their contract would be on the line. To a politician, it is better to have victims that they can feign mourning for in a photo op than supporting right to carry and risk criticism.

pullnshoot25
04-26-2009, 11:53 AM
But how would the CCW holder know who the real bad guy was, or when the police DID show up would they mistake the civilian shooter for the perpetrator?

It scares me when anyone but LE have guns! What are you people? Some kind of cowboys?

:rolleyes:

For some reason I just thought. . . People always bring up the OK Coral. . . Wasn't that caused by the police trying to take the guns off of some cowboys? I think we should blame that all on Wyatt.

And to get a little more back on topic, what has happened? Even police chiefs and sheriffs are to cowardly to stand up against the politicos for us. . .

My favorite quotes...

-This isn't the Wild, Wild West. Response: Crime was actually lower in the Wild, Wild West.
-This isn't Texas. Response: Actually, Texas doesn't allow open carry. (Got a few people pretty fumed on that comment)
-This isn't Mexico (oh yes, it was said). Response: Actually, Mexico barely allows you to own a pea shooter (or something to that effect)

glockman19
04-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Bratton and Bacca are is NOT a "REAL COPS". He is an elected official and the other is an appointed Administator. Neither position reallyrequires POST Training. Anyone can be appointed as Chief of police of any City by any mayor and anyone who runs for the office and gets elected can become sheriff of any county.

hill billy
04-26-2009, 12:45 PM
Didn't Bratton fail POST training repeatedly?

nick
04-26-2009, 1:09 PM
It hasn't been much of a secret that most (not all) rank-and-file cops at least don't object to armed citizens, and often are in favor (sometimes actively advocate it, like most of the cops we have on the board here). However, it's the chiefs of police and sheriffs who get to testify at the Assembly and Congress hearings, and therein lies the problem.

N6ATF
04-26-2009, 1:18 PM
I guess there aren't enough "real" cops out there willing to protect the innocent from evil victim disarmers. They have the moral imperative and individual freedom as fully-sworn officers to disobey unlawful and unconstitutional "orders" from their higher-ups, but instead choose to violate their oaths to screw gun owners left and right.

"I was just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg, and it doesn't here.

Roadrunner
04-26-2009, 1:21 PM
I guess there aren't enough "real" cops out there willing to protect the innocent from evil victim disarmers. They have the moral imperative and individual freedom as fully-sworn officers to disobey unlawful and unconstitutional "orders" from their higher-ups, but instead choose to violate their oaths to screw gun owners left and right.

"I was just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg, and it doesn't here.

Be careful, somebody may try and drop the Godwin card on you.

MontClaire
04-26-2009, 1:22 PM
Don’t listen to the politically motivated figureheads. Talk to the REAL cops.


Unfortunately in this country and everywhere else the cops will do what they are told by politically motivated figureheads........

N6ATF
04-26-2009, 1:45 PM
Be careful, somebody may try and drop the Godwin card on you.

I realize, but cops are NOT mindless robot soldiers and should NOT act (or pretend to act) as such.

RomanDad
04-26-2009, 2:20 PM
Bratton and Bacca are NOT "REAL COPS". One is an elected official and the other is an appointed Administator.
Neither position really requires POST Training. Anyone can be appointed as Chief of police of any City by any mayor and anyone who runs for the office and gets elected can become sheriff of any county.

For the record- The last statements not true.

One has to be POST certified in order to be elected Sheriff in California.

Lee Baca has been with the LASD for almost 45 years now.

Roadrunner
04-26-2009, 6:06 PM
I realize, but cops are NOT mindless robot soldiers and should NOT act (or pretend to act) as such.

I understand your concerns, but we can't expect them to not follow the law. To put it simply, that could be a double edged sword if they decided not to. Having said that, I realize that some cops probably cut corners when enforcing the laws, but there are the courts and modern electronics to deal with that. As for them looking the other way when it comes to guns, don't hold your breath. We should just let our legal power (Calguns attorneys) incrementally dismantle the gun laws that are found to be unconstitutional and scare the daylights out of the usurpers that might think about making more. I'm patient, I'll wait.

Liberty1
04-26-2009, 6:34 PM
I understand your concerns, but we can't expect them to not follow the law.

Officers using their lawful discretion is not "not following the law". More RKBA supporting LEOS using their discretion or choosing to advise rather then arrest and let the judge sort it out, when there are no other indications of violent criminal activity, is a good thing. We need to empower those on our side to feel freer in the use of discretion especially when enforcing laws on the books which have yet to be found unconstitutional.

One of my Sgts about 5 years ago advised a guy who brought in an AW, wondering if it was legal, to go buy some PVC or get it out of the state until the laws are changed :thumbsup: . Suffice to say I work for a small dept.

Casual Observer
04-26-2009, 6:55 PM
Bratton and Bacca are NOT "REAL COPS". One is an elected official and the other is an appointed Administator.
Neither position really requires POST Training. Anyone can be appointed as Chief of police of any City by any mayor and anyone who runs for the office and gets elected can become sheriff of any county.

Bratton isn't CA POST certified, but he's been in law enforcement since 1965 and been Police Commissioner of both New York City and Boston- two major cities with high crime rates. I think he's qualified and besides the CCW issue, has done a pretty good job.

As pointed out, you need to be CA POST certified to be elected Sheriff.

N6ATF
04-26-2009, 7:12 PM
I understand your concerns, but we can't expect them to not follow the law.

Except they don't follow the law. Forcing people to ID themselves through warrantless searches, running serial numbers, turning off voice recorders, forcing people to give up their freedom to leave for so long it constitutes arrest...

Constitutionality aside, they are enforcing laws and exercising Godlike authority that DOES NOT EXIST and should be punished.

Roadrunner
04-26-2009, 7:16 PM
Except they don't follow the law. Forcing people to ID themselves through warrantless searches, running serial numbers, turning off voice recorders, forcing people to give up their freedom to leave for so long it constitutes arrest...

Constitutionality aside, they are enforcing laws and exercising Godlike authority that DOES NOT EXIST and should be punished.

Okay, if a cop does something that's illegal and you can prove it, go get them. But how much will it cost you to do that?

N6ATF
04-26-2009, 9:24 PM
Enough money (probably millions) to bribe government officials to actually do their jobs and prosecute criminals hiding behind badges.

That's right where they want us.

glockman19
04-26-2009, 9:40 PM
For the record- The last statements not true.

One has to be POST certified in order to be elected Sheriff in California.

Lee Baca has been with the LASD for almost 45 years now.

I looked and couldn't find where this elected position required POST certification. If true then I stand corrected.

swhatb
04-26-2009, 11:12 PM
From Of Arms and the Law:

great article.

Tallship
04-27-2009, 9:41 AM
I looked and couldn't find where this elected position required POST certification. If true then I stand corrected.

830.1. (a) Any sheriff, undersheriff, or deputy sheriff, employed
in that capacity,....... is a peace officer.


All peace officers must be POST certified, ergo, the Sheriff must be POST certified.

glockman19
04-27-2009, 9:54 AM
830.1. (a) Any sheriff, undersheriff, or deputy sheriff, employed
in that capacity,....... is a peace officer.


All peace officers must be POST certified, ergo, the Sheriff must be POST certified.

Thank You.

Theseus
04-27-2009, 10:05 AM
830.1. (a) Any sheriff, undersheriff, or deputy sheriff, employed
in that capacity,....... is a peace officer.


All peace officers must be POST certified, ergo, the Sheriff must be POST certified.

I am sure that is not the one. That to me seems to simply reaffirm that a person holding those positions are in fact peace officers.

I am sure it is somewhere else hidden.

Here is it:
GOVERNMENT CODE
SECTION 24000-24012

24004.3. (a) No person is eligible to become a candidate for the
office of sheriff in any county unless, at the time of the final
filing date for election, he or she meets one of the following
criteria:
(1) An active or inactive advanced certificate issued by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training.
(2) One year of full-time, salaried law enforcement experience
within the provisions of Section 830.1 or 830.2 of the Penal Code at
least a portion of which shall have been accomplished within five
years prior to the date of filing, and possesses a master's degree
from an accredited college or university.
(3) Two years of full-time, salaried law enforcement experience
within the provisions of Section 830.1 or 830.2 of the Penal Code at
least a portion of which shall have been accomplished within five
years prior to the date of filing, and possesses a bachelor's degree
from an accredited college or university.
(4) Three years of full-time, salaried law enforcement experience
within the provisions of Section 830.1 or 830.2 of the Penal Code at
least a portion of which shall have been accomplished within five
years prior to the date of filing, and possesses an associate in arts
or associate in science degree, or the equivalent, from an
accredited college.
(5) Four years of full-time, salaried law enforcement experience
within the provisions of Section 830.1 or 830.2 of the Penal Code at
least a portion of which shall have been accomplished within five
years prior to the date of filing, and possesses a high school
diploma or the equivalent.
(b) All persons holding the office of sheriff on January 1, 1989
shall be deemed to have met all qualifications required for
candidates seeking election or appointment to the office of sheriff.

RomanDad
04-27-2009, 10:07 AM
I am sure that is not the one. That to me seems to simply reaffirm that a person holding those positions are in fact peace officers.

I am sure it is somewhere else hidden.

Wasn't it a SanDiego or OC sheriff that got this bill pushed through?

I believe it was the former Orange County Sheriff Brad Gates.