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eflatminor
04-23-2009, 10:33 PM
Is a handgun carried via poor man's CCW also legal if kept on the passenger seat of a vehicle? What if that vehicle passes through a school zone?

hoffmang
04-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Is a handgun carried via poor man's CCW also legal if kept on the passenger seat of a vehicle? What if that vehicle passes through a school zone?

Since it is locked, it is legal on the seat even in a school zone.

-Gene

Librarian
04-23-2009, 10:57 PM
Remember that legal transport, concealed without CCW, requires a locked container; nothing addresses where that locked container must be located.

An automobile trunk is just one example of a locked container.

Mr. Magoo
04-23-2009, 11:01 PM
Remember that legal transport, concealed without CCW, requires a locked container; nothing addresses where that locked container must be located.

An automobile trunk is just one example of a locked container.

What if your car has folding rear seats that do not lock? Only the trunk lit outside is locked.

Librarian
04-23-2009, 11:05 PM
What if your car has folding rear seats that do not lock? Only the trunk lit outside is locked.

I don't know of case law on the point, but I'd expect that wasn't really 'locked'. My house is not locked up if only the back door is locked.

Mr. Magoo
04-23-2009, 11:22 PM
I don't know of case law on the point, but I'd expect that wasn't really 'locked'. My house is not locked up if only the back door is locked.

There are a lot of cars out there like this, so we should all be conscious of that I guess. But I always have my pistol locked up anyways...just asking to clarify. Thanks.

Theseus
04-23-2009, 11:38 PM
I searched and could not find any case that argued that folding seats are a violation.

That is to say that the presence of a folding seat means the trunk is not locked.

In fact, IIRC I don't believe the search turned up any relevant 12025 cases.

Don't take this to be gospel as IANAL and honestly I am not that good a super sleuth.

Nanook
04-23-2009, 11:39 PM
I would hope no one is planning on just tossing a loose pistol in their trunk, but whatever floats yer boat.

AntiBubba 2.1
04-23-2009, 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eflatminor
Is a handgun carried via poor man's CCW also legal if kept on the passenger seat of a vehicle? What if that vehicle passes through a school zone?


Since it is locked, it is legal on the seat even in a school zone.


What is "poor man's CCW"?

sammy
04-23-2009, 11:43 PM
So is a handgun locked in a soft case, with loaded magazines in the same case, but not in the gun kosher in the seat next to you?

Theseus
04-24-2009, 12:05 AM
I was going to summarise but got lazy.

School Zones: CONCEALABLE FIREARMS must be locked in a proper container or in the locked trunk of your vehicle. There is nothing to worry about ammunition unless you actually step foot on the grounds of a school.

Outside a School Zone: CONCEALABLE FIREARMS should either be in plain view such as dashboard or passenger seat OR in a proper locked container OR in the trunk of your vehicle.

IN EITHER CASE: The firearms should not be loaded, open or concealed unless you are in an area that allows it to be loaded.

Magazines should generally be with the weapon whether the weapon is in plain view or concealed BUT NOT IN THE MAG WELL.

Did I get it worked out clear enough? Did I leave something out? Maybe. . . Sometimes it gets hard to re-work it.

Nanook
04-24-2009, 12:07 AM
What is "poor man's CCW"?

So is a handgun locked in a soft case, with loaded magazines in the same case, but not in the gun kosher in the seat next to you?

Both your questions are answered in this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061

N6ATF
04-24-2009, 12:27 AM
I searched and could not find any case that argued that folding seats are a violation.

That is to say that the presence of a folding seat means the trunk is not locked.

I think they want it inaccessible from within the cab without first turning a key (or combination) in a lock. I was told by a retired cop that you are totally legal to keep a loose gun behind folding rear seats if you lock them out from the trunk side (the cab release buttons are made non-functional).

Theseus
04-24-2009, 12:40 AM
Actually, only the Federal law specifically mentions accessibility from the cab and IIRC it is in relation to the Federal form of transport to not be chargeable by local ordinances. CA PC has nothing about it.

U.S. CODE Title 18, Part 1, Chap 44
926A. Interstate transportation of firearms.
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, that in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

Flopper
04-24-2009, 11:45 AM
What if your car has folding rear seats that do not lock? Only the trunk lit outside is locked.
this has been something that has been discussed for quite a while but unfortunately "readily accessible" is up for interpretation until it gets settled in case law.

N6ATF
04-24-2009, 1:52 PM
Actually, only the Federal law specifically mentions accessibility from the cab and IIRC it is in relation to the Federal form of transport to not be chargeable by local ordinances. CA PC has nothing about it.

PC or lack thereof aside, if your rear seats are locked and you key your trunk to lock out the trunk release under the driver's seat, you prevent officers from easily making a warrantless search and seizure.

Liberty1
04-24-2009, 2:00 PM
Actually, only the Federal law specifically mentions accessibility from the cab and IIRC it is in relation to the Federal form of transport to not be chargeable by local ordinances. CA PC has nothing about it.

U.S. CODE Title 18, Part 1, Chap 44
926A. Interstate transportation of firearms.
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, that in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

and I'll note this is not a "restrictive" section. This is not commanding that you do this. Following this is a way to invoke a federal "exemption" to state laws when interstate traveling with firearms. You can still choose to possess/carry in complience with state laws such as OCing or CCing without any license in Vermont or Alaska or UOCing in CA or OCing in Arizona for example.

ColdDeadHands1
04-24-2009, 11:37 PM
It is clear that the glove box or console are not legal "locked containers". What about an approved locked container placed inside the glove box or console? This container would not be fixed to the glove box or console. Opinions on the legality of this setup?

hoffmang
04-25-2009, 11:01 AM
It is clear that the glove box or console are not legal "locked containers". What about an approved locked container placed inside the glove box or console? This container would not be fixed to the glove box or console. Opinions on the legality of this setup?

The "glove box" wouldn't be worth the trouble/confusion. However the definition of "console" is so vague that as long as your locked container was in some larger storage unit in your car - say between the driver and passenger seat - I don't think you'd run into a problem.

-Gene

nicki
04-25-2009, 5:35 PM
Okay, so now you are driving down the road with your locked container, empty gun and loaded magazines or speed loaders.

You get into a situation where you actually have to use the gun.

Let's assume for this case argument that if you had a CCW permit that it would be ruled Justified use of force. No charges would be filed.

What have you just stepped into legally?

I know better Judged by 12 than carried by 6, but we have to consider legal implications, both criminal and civil, before we do any kind of carry.

Nicki

TheBundo
04-25-2009, 5:53 PM
Okay, so now you are driving down the road with your locked container, empty gun and loaded magazines or speed loaders.

You get into a situation where you actually have to use the gun.

Let's assume for this case argument that if you had a CCW permit that it would be ruled Justified use of force. No charges would be filed.

What have you just stepped into legally?

I know better Judged by 12 than carried by 6, but we have to consider legal implications, both criminal and civil, before we do any kind of carry.

Nicki

Assuming you have a lockable case, I think the explanation works legally.

hoffmang
04-25-2009, 6:20 PM
What have you just stepped into legally?


There are two specific exemptions to all the loaded/concealed restrictions in the Penal Code. One is for stopping a felony. The other is for when you are reasonably in fear of your life.

Either way as long as the incident is not an overreaction on your part or the shot would be deemed a "good shoot" you are operating in the same legal zone as a PC 12050 licensed individual. That you were poor man's CCWing before the incident has no actual bearing on the outcome of the case legally.

-Gene

sierratangofoxtrotunion
04-25-2009, 8:31 PM
Magazines should generally be with the weapon whether the weapon is in plain view or concealed BUT NOT IN THE MAG WELL.

Why do you say the mag should be with the weapon? Something wrong with the firearm being in the trunk and the mag being, say, in the glove box, that I'm not aware of?

Theseus
04-25-2009, 8:42 PM
Why do you say the mag should be with the weapon? Something wrong with the firearm being in the trunk and the mag being, say, in the glove box, that I'm not aware of?

That is why I said generally. The more you keep the two of them in the same location the easier it will likely be to find it when you need it...and I also meant it in the same that if the firearm is concealed, you should conceal the magazines. . .

I know it didn't come out like that.

hoffmang
04-25-2009, 9:04 PM
Why do you say the mag should be with the weapon? Something wrong with the firearm being in the trunk and the mag being, say, in the glove box, that I'm not aware of?

There is a very strange California appellate decision that says an openly carried unloaded semiautomatic handgun in plain view can be considered concealed if the magazine with rounds in it for the gun is concealed.

-Gene

sierratangofoxtrotunion
04-25-2009, 9:14 PM
There is a very strange California appellate decision that says an openly carried unloaded semiautomatic handgun in plain view can be considered concealed if the magazine with rounds in it for the gun is concealed.

-Gene

That is a little odd. I'll choose not to involve this by keeping everything concealed / locked.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
04-25-2009, 9:15 PM
There is a very strange California appellate decision that says an openly carried unloaded semiautomatic handgun in plain view can be considered concealed if the magazine with rounds in it for the gun is concealed.

-Gene

Wait, would this apply to UOC type action?

The semiauto handgun is in plain view on the hip but the mag is concealed in the pocket = it's concealed?

Seesm
04-25-2009, 9:21 PM
We should all (if you legally are able to own a gun) be able to CCW with no worries...

hoffmang
04-25-2009, 9:43 PM
Wait, would this apply to UOC type action?

The semiauto handgun is in plain view on the hip but the mag is concealed in the pocket = it's concealed?

Yep. Keep the mags in plain view or at least in magazine holders on your belt.

-Gene

AlexDD
04-25-2009, 10:15 PM
There is a very strange California appellate decision that says an openly carried unloaded semiautomatic handgun in plain view can be considered concealed if the magazine with rounds in it for the gun is concealed.

-Gene

This seems obvious from the above statement but I want to be certain; if the person had a revolver, he could then say have his moonclips concealed?

Librarian
04-25-2009, 11:07 PM
This seems obvious from the above statement but I want to be certain; if the person had a revolver, he could then say have his moonclips concealed?

That's actually easier. Nobody has suggested that a moon clip is actually a part of the gun, nor is ammunition. There's no possibility of getting a 'concealed weapon' out of concealed ammunition. It's People v Hale that has introduced the idea that a magazine is "an essential component of a visible weapon" and thus a concealed magazine may be used to create a PC 12025 violation, even when "One portion of the automatic pistol, the housing and barrel, was visible".

It's obvious that Hale did not have a lawyer who knew anything about guns in 1974. Certainly the judge in the case did not. "housing"?