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.454
04-23-2009, 9:28 AM
http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

Long read but very interesting, in particular because:

1. It's laying down our enemy strategy for the future with pros and cons for various tactics to push the anti-gun agenda forward.
2. The author seems to know a great deal about guns and gun laws.
3. It takes in consideration how Heller can be used to weaken the opposition to registration.

SwissFluCase
04-23-2009, 10:12 AM
I sped read it. As far as I can tell the author is making one fatal assumption: That the American people will let general registration/confiscation come to pass. I just don't see this happening this century.

I think that firearms registration will be viewed the same way as newspaper/subscriber registration: There are too many ways that the registration system can be used to deprive one of his 2A rights. As more people claim the 2A right as their own, the stronger it will become.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CAL.BAR
04-23-2009, 10:30 AM
I sped read it. As far as I can tell the author is making one fatal assumption: That the American people will let general registration/confiscation come to pass. I just don't see this happening this century.

I think that firearms registration will be viewed the same way as newspaper/subscriber registration: There are too many ways that the registration system can be used to deprive one of his 2A rights. As more people claim the 2A right as their own, the stronger it will become.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

You assume that "most" Americans care about 2A. From my experience, a very large portion of the "city folks" in very "blue" states (you know where all the voters are) care very little about guns and are actually scared of them and prefer they not be around.

SwissFluCase
04-23-2009, 10:38 AM
You assume that "most" Americans care about 2A. From my experience, a very large portion of the "city folks" in very "blue" states (you know where all the voters are) care very little about guns and are actually scared of them and prefer they not be around.

The events since Katrina have been changing that. I know from personal experience. Even the major polling orginizations like Gallup and such are reporting the lowest support for gun control since they started polling.

Don't let anyone tell you we are the minority. That was a tactic of the anti's back from when they controlled all of the media and there was no Internet.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

ilbob
04-23-2009, 10:42 AM
Did anyone notice this in the foot note?

I wish to thank Don Kates, Robert Cottrol, and David Kopel for their comments and insights and George Mocsary for his excellent and timely research and editorial work.

These are not names of the enemy.

Most of the article is about how Americans have resisted previous confiscation attempts, and will resist future confiscation attempts.

When you read this article, think "from my cold dead hands". Thats what the article is saying.

CCWFacts
04-23-2009, 10:49 AM
That article is focused on "what kind of gun control can be used post-Heller which might actually be effective at reducing violence". That's the problem right there; the Brady Campaign and the other banners have never had a concern for reducing violence. They just want to reduce guns. So whatever conclusions this article has won't be interesting to them.

elenius
04-23-2009, 12:03 PM
Here's an interesting quote from the article:


In recent years, several states and municipalities passed
laws mandating the registration [and subsequent prohibition]
of assault rifles. These laws failed miserably, primarily due to
owner resistance. In Boston and Cleveland, the rate of
compliance with the ban on assault rifles is estimated at 1%.
In California, nearly 90% of the approximately 300,000 assault
weapons owners did not register their weapons. Out of the
100,000300,000 assault rifles estimated to be in private
hands in New Jersey, 947 were registered, an additional 888
were rendered inoperable, and four were turned over to the
authorities.74

7x57
04-23-2009, 12:55 PM
I've read this article before, and I don't regard it as an anti-gun article. In fact, it more or less says that most of the traditional approaches don't work and so they should no longer be tried. The antis are going to try the others anyway.

7x57

Whiskey_Sauer
04-23-2009, 1:06 PM
I read it. It's not an unreasonable analysis of what would happen in the wake of confiscation, registration, and the sheer folly of supply-side regulations.

Hopefully, egghead policy makers read this type of analysis and take it seriously.

Roadrunner
04-23-2009, 1:58 PM
Remember that Nordyke doesn't just effect California. I might also add that with the exception of California, Hawaii, and the territories, all of the other states are shall issue, and I believe California is the only state with an AWB. So, I think everyone needs to think outside the iron curtain and see the positive ramifications of our being within the borders of the 9th District, at least for the time being.

Whiskey_Sauer
04-23-2009, 2:31 PM
There's actually a lot of useful statistics and sources to mine from this one. Very helpful.

stormy_clothing
04-23-2009, 3:00 PM
here's one perspective, today at lunch my dad told me that facing his future retirement he would likely trade his US citizenship for living in another country where taxes weren't so rediculous and where you could buy a gun and own it forever and not worry about some laws that make it illegal.

This from a man who has paid millions of dollars in taxes and employs people who have payed many millions more in taxs and loves the US but is finally saying this is too much BS to be happy living in.

I'd estimate that he's probably paid somewhere in the range of 40 million in taxs and since we are a supplier to vendors that would'nt normally exist otherwise in the tier 3 tel co realm there a possibility of many hundreds more million dollars would be lost to foreign companies and suppliers of these products.

So how is this good for the nation when it's backbone and core believers just say fukit and leave, and all that tax money goes to cypress where one of our biggest competitors is from.

Stan_Humphries
04-23-2009, 3:07 PM
It's a few months old, but I do love this paragraph especially:

"It is possible, in theory, to reduce [the amount of pre-ban weapons hoarding] with an end run
around the traditional lawmaking process.136 A technique that
might send less of a signal in an ordinary market is regulatory
tightening. Rulemaking occurs in the shadows. Sometimes only the
agency and the regulated entities really pay attention to notice and
comment periods, or shifts in regulatory interpretations.137
Regulation sends weaker market signals than legislation. That difference may be worrisome in a democracy. But it presents a
chance to circumvent market reactions that undermine
legislation―at least in ordinary markets."

M. Sage
04-23-2009, 4:49 PM
here's one perspective, today at lunch my dad told me that facing his future retirement he would likely trade his US citizenship for living in another country where taxes weren't so rediculous and where you could buy a gun and own it forever and not worry about some laws that make it illegal.

In other news (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/us/politics/18texas.html?ref=global-home)... We'd love to have someone like that as a neighbor. :D

D.R.E.
04-23-2009, 4:50 PM
Nice find! I'll add my recommendation for reading it. The guy is often fairly funny, the writing is clear, and a lot of the pages are footnotes so it's alot shorter than it seems.

Interesting bit about how when handguns / rifles were banned (e.g., ireland), bad people switched from shotguns to machine guns. :43: (Though, of course, other than a few ex-army guys, they were probably better of w/ the former.)



http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

Long read but very interesting, in particular because:

1. It's laying down our enemy strategy for the future with pros and cons for various tactics to push the anti-gun agenda forward.
2. The author seems to know a great deal about guns and gun laws.
3. It takes in consideration how Heller can be used to weaken the opposition to registration.

elenius
04-23-2009, 5:20 PM
I was waiting for some interesting conclusions on what he thinks is still realistic gun control policy, but this is all he says under "conclusions" at the end:


Without a commitment to or capacity for eliminating the
existing inventory of private guns, the supply-side ideal and
regulations based on it cannot be taken seriously. It is best to
acknowledge the blocking power of the remainder and adjust our
gun control regulations and goals to that reality. Policymakers who
continue to press legislation grounded on the supply-side ideal while
disclaiming the goal of prohibition are deluded or pandering.

B Strong
04-23-2009, 5:23 PM
Very interesting in that the author stipulates that Heller is overruled as a prerequisite to registration/confiscation, and of course this was written long before Nordyke.

The autor states his case well,there isn't anything there to poke holes in.

The simple fact is that most gunowners would take the path of passive resistance.

hoffmang
04-23-2009, 7:42 PM
Rulemaking occurs in the shadows. Sometimes only the
agency and the regulated entities really pay attention to notice and
comment periods, or shifts in regulatory interpretations.

Unless you have an army of davids as the watch dog group :31:

:inquis:

-Gene

rabagley
04-23-2009, 8:38 PM
I just read the whole thing from beginning to end. This is written by a very intelligent gun owner and gun rights activist.

He makes a compelling and well-reasoned argument that gun control will not achieve the states goals (elimination of guns from civilian hands) in the US without generations of unlikely cultural indoctrination.

SwissFluCase
04-23-2009, 8:43 PM
I just read the whole thing from beginning to end. This is written by a very intelligent gun owner and gun rights activist.

He makes a compelling and well-reasoned argument that gun control will not achieve the states goals (elimination of guns from civilian hands) in the US without generations of unlikely cultural indoctrination.

I looked it over gain. I stand corrected. At first it sounded to me like an anti gun analysis, but the author really is sending a clear message: "give up!".

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Librarian
04-23-2009, 9:07 PM
Johnson is a pro-gun academic. He was at the February symposium in SF.

http://law.fordham.edu/ihtml/fac-2bioPP.ihtml?id=507&bid=158

jb7706
04-23-2009, 9:55 PM
After reading the whole thing I think I can sum it up: "Gun control... Why bother?"

From that paper: "Gun prohibition then is not the same as banning
DDT or leaded gasoline. It is more like banning fire."

Amen.

cousinkix1953
04-23-2009, 11:11 PM
The events since Katrina have been changing that. I know from personal experience. Even the major polling orginizations like Gallup and such are reporting the lowest support for gun control since they started polling.

Don't let anyone tell you we are the minority. That was a tactic of the anti's back from when they controlled all of the media and there was no Internet.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

Hurricane Katrina was the wake up call for Bill O'Reilly. He was shocked by dozens of police officers deserting their posts like a bunch of cowards. People were left to defend themselves from the looters. The sight of the GESTAPO trying to confiscate guns from law abiding citizens made a lot of people angry. There is even a You Tube video of them beating up an old lady, who refused to give up her revolver...

Ford8N
04-24-2009, 5:18 AM
Hurricane Katrina was the wake up call for Bill O'Reilly. He was shocked by dozens of police officers deserting their posts like a bunch of cowards. People were left to defend themselves from the looters. The sight of the GESTAPO trying to confiscate guns from law abiding citizens made a lot of people angry. There is even a You Tube video of them beating up an old lady, who refused to give up her revolver...

That "GESTAPO" was one of our very own California Highway Patrol officers.

In recent years, several states and municipalities passed
laws mandating the registration [and subsequent prohibition]
of assault rifles. These laws failed miserably, primarily due to
owner resistance. In Boston and Cleveland, the rate of
compliance with the ban on assault rifles is estimated at 1%.
In California, nearly 90% of the approximately 300,000 assault
weapons owners did not register their weapons. Out of the
100,000300,000 assault rifles estimated to be in private
hands in New Jersey, 947 were registered, an additional 888
were rendered inoperable, and four were turned over to the
authorities.74

The vast majority of gun owning Americans do not trust their government or the politicians that rule them. Of course neither did the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution.:43:

SwissFluCase
04-24-2009, 6:14 AM
The vast majority of gun owning Americans do not trust their government or the politicians that rule them. Of course neither did the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution.:43:


Fixed it for you... :thumbsup:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Bugei
04-24-2009, 7:19 AM
I've read this article before, and I don't regard it as an anti-gun article. In fact, it more or less says that most of the traditional approaches don't work and so they should no longer be tried. The antis are going to try the others anyway.

7x57
What ticks me off is that they want to try the same failed approaches again and again until criminals start obeying the law.

What a buncha maroons.

Bugei
04-24-2009, 7:22 AM
It's a few months old, but I do love this paragraph especially:

"It is possible, in theory, to reduce [the amount of pre-ban weapons hoarding] with an end run
around the traditional lawmaking process.136 A technique that
might send less of a signal in an ordinary market is regulatory
tightening. Rulemaking occurs in the shadows. Sometimes only the
agency and the regulated entities really pay attention to notice and
comment periods, or shifts in regulatory interpretations.137
Regulation sends weaker market signals than legislation. That difference may be worrisome in a democracy. But it presents a
chance to circumvent market reactions that undermine
legislation―at least in ordinary markets."

Not true, at least in California and in regards to gun law. Every antigun move in the legislature and the courts is paid careful attention by CalGuns members.

cousinkix1953
04-24-2009, 8:00 AM
That "GESTAPO" was one of our very own California Highway Patrol officers.



The vast majority of gun owning Americans do not trust their government or the politicians that rule them. Of course neither did the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution.:43:
I agree! They had to extend the registration deadline two more times after Roos-Roberti went into effect on Jan. 1 2000. Nobody knows just how many banned weapons are still off the books.

I don't trust Big Brother either. First Dan Lungren demanded that 2000 law abiding citizens register their SKS sporters. His successor, AG Bill Lockyer confiscated them from a bunch of suckers. Jerry Brown isn't even looking for the dirtbag, who sold one of those same kind of illegal weapons, to the killer who murdered four cops in Oakland.

Most of my guns belonged to my OM, or were purchased from other private parties. I haven't purchased a firearm from a dealer, and filled out a bunch BATFE paperwork since about 1974...

TatankaGap
04-24-2009, 8:58 AM
I just read the whole thing from beginning to end. This is written by a very intelligent gun owner and gun rights activist.

He makes a compelling and well-reasoned argument that gun control will not achieve the states goals (elimination of guns from civilian hands) in the US without generations of unlikely cultural indoctrination.

I agree. At first, I didn't realize it but now I know. Kudos for the Article - written in true concealment mode ;)

N6ATF
04-24-2009, 9:40 AM
The vast majority of gun owning Americans do not trust their government or the politicians that rule them, yet they maintain the status quo with their votes anyway.

Doubly fixed, SwissFluCase.