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View Full Version : Flash suppressor that is also a grenade launcher?


vlsgmc
04-22-2009, 8:55 PM
This is part of a post on the Spanish FR8 in the C&R section, but since it also relates to modern arms, I'm posting it here. The question is about flash suppressors that were designed to also be used as grenade launchers. Anyone know California DOJs take on this?

I've done a lot of research on this. From what I found, what TRICKSTER posted above is correct. The ATF addressed this issue when it came to importing several foreign military rifles:

From a July 6, 1989 ATF memo entitled : Report and Recommendation on the Importability of Certain Semiautomatic Rifles and represent notes from a meeting held on December 10, 1968.The Firearms Evaluation Panel did briefly comment on whether a model BM59 Beretta, 7.62mm NATO Caliber Sporter Version Rifle was suitable for sporting purposes. Minutes of the Firearms Advisory Panel, December 10, 1968. Attachment 3. It was the consensus of the Panel that this rifle did have a particular use in target shooting and hunting. Accordingly, it was recommended that importation of the Beretta BM59, together with the SIG-AMT 7.62mm NATO Caliber Sporting Rifle and the Cetme 7.62mm NATO Caliber Sporting Rifle, be authorized for importation. (The Beretta RM59 and the Cetme, the predecessor to the HK91, are two of the rifles whose importation has been suspended. The SIG-AMT is no longer being produced.) However, the Panel recommended that importation of these weapons should include the restriction that they not possess combination flash suppressors/grenade launchers.

.... A model BM59 Beretta, 7.62mm, NATO Caliber Sporter Version Rifle was presented to the panel and their advice sought as to their suitability for sporting purposes. It was the consensus that these rifles do have a particular use in target shooting and hunting. Accordingly, it was recommended that importation of this rifle together with the SIG-AMT 7.62mm NATO Caliber Sporting Rifle and the Cetme 7.62mm NATO Caliber Sporting Rifle be authorized for importation. Importation, however, should include the restriction that these weapons must not possess combination flash suppressor/grenade adapters with outside diameters greater than 20mm (.22mm is the universal grenade adapter size).


And even on the Fulton Armory site:
Now that the ban has sunset, AR-15-type rifles can be assembled with any or all of the previously proscribed features. Thus, we can offer Fulton Armory FAR-15 rifles with A2 flash suppressors*, bayonet lugs, and collapsible stocks.
* The AR-15 flash suppressor also serves as a grenade launcher for 22mm NATO grenades, which is why the various muzzle devices used to comply with the law had to be larger in diameter than 22mm whilst the law was in effect.


Any CETME experts out there correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the two rings on the FR-8 barrel (which was originally for a CETME C) just before the front sight were originally used for either bayonet mounting or a sling ring like used on FALs.

So, what does this mean for Kali residents that have a flash suppressor that can also be used as a grenade launcher? Does the Kali DOJ think it is a grenade launcher?

I'm not worried to much about owning one, I'm concerned about a seller of a rifle I want telling me I can't have the gun because it has a "grenade launcher."

BLaVoy
04-29-2009, 10:52 PM
I am currently under indictment for having a grenade launcher. At the moment I have no idea what is being considered a grenade launcher. I had a few AR15s and an FN FAL, are there other assault weapons that may posses them? Can anyone shed any light on what this could be. I did read this posting and the responses but I need to get as much info as possible of what I had and how it is now being considered a grenade launcher. Thank you for any information.

bwiese
04-29-2009, 10:57 PM
I am currently under indictment for having a grenade launcher. At the moment I have no idea what is being considered a grenade launcher. I had a few AR15s and an FN FAL, are there other assault weapons that may posses them? Can anyone shed any light on what this could be. I did read this posting and the responses but I need to get as much info as possible of what I had and how it is now being considered a grenade launcher. Thank you for any information.

Blavoy,

Please contact me via PM here IMMEDIATELY. We need to see if you're properly represented.

BLaVoy
04-30-2009, 11:50 AM
Bill, I'm not on line all the time so I'm not sure how to coordinate with you but I do appreciate your interest and would like to hear what you have to say. If I can post my email then get my phone number to you. What ever you suggest, I am all ears. Thank you!

DDT
04-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Click on Bill's name and there's a drop down box, click on "Send bweise a private message" from that box.

Send him your phone number and he'll get back to you ASAP.

adamsreeftank
04-30-2009, 1:33 PM
A lot of military flash hiders or muzzle brakes have round springs or snap rings on the outside that are meant to hold a grenade on the end of the rifle until it is launched.

I don't know if it is true, but I've heard removing the spring may be enough to make the device legal. The Yugo SKSs that were imported needed to have a steel sleeve welded over their original flash hiders to be legal. Either way, I believe it is considered a Destructive Device at the federal level in its original form.

Blackhawk556
04-30-2009, 1:41 PM
I am currently under indictment for having a grenade launcher. At the moment I have no idea what is being considered a grenade launcher. I had a few AR15s and an FN FAL, are there other assault weapons that may posses them? Can anyone shed any light on what this could be. I did read this posting and the responses but I need to get as much info as possible of what I had and how it is now being considered a grenade launcher. Thank you for any information.

wow this sounds serious, hopefully Bill can help you out

AJAX22
04-30-2009, 2:12 PM
There are rifle grenades designed to fire from any standard A2 flash hider (no modification whatsoever)

so strictly speaking by the CA BOF's interpenetration of what constitutes a grenade launcher almost any rifle could be one.

tgriffin
04-30-2009, 2:26 PM
There are rifle grenades designed to fire from any standard A2 flash hider (no modification whatsoever)

so strictly speaking by the CA BOF's interpenetration of what constitutes a grenade launcher almost any rifle could be one.

Ggggggggrrrrrreeaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt.


Hmmm my guess is this will come down to form versus function. In other words, if the flash hider was designed to be a grenade launcher = illegal.... if a grenade was designed to be launched from what was designed as a flashhider = legal.

AJAX22
04-30-2009, 2:31 PM
Ggggggggrrrrrreeaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt.


Hmmm my guess is this will come down to form versus function. In other words, if the flash hider was designed to be a grenade launcher = illegal.... if a grenade was designed to be launched from what was designed as a flashhider = legal.

I don't stress it (I've got flash hiders on a couple different rifles, although I prefer the levang linear compensators)

The stuff has been around forever, but the CA DOJ hasn't made an issue out of it... I suspect they either don't know (its not like these are available to civillians in an explosive form anyway) or they realise that if they took it to court on a more standardized platform that was easily recognizable as a normal component part they could loose.

Seesm
04-30-2009, 3:51 PM
I would feel a far bit better to know Bill and some others are at least talking to me or for me. Hurray!!

M. Sage
05-01-2009, 3:33 PM
I don't know if it is true, but I've heard removing the spring may be enough to make the device legal. The Yugo SKSs that were imported needed to have a steel sleeve welded over their original flash hiders to be legal. Either way, I believe it is considered a Destructive Device at the federal level in its original form.

I don't know about the spring, but the Zastava 59/66 is not a Federal Destructive Device in its original configuration. It's only a "Destructive Device" in California. But then again so is a 2 liter bottle with a little water and a chunk of dry ice. :rolleyes:

berg
05-01-2009, 6:21 PM
I don't stress it (I've got flash hiders on a couple different rifles, although I prefer the levang linear compensators)

The stuff has been around forever, but the CA DOJ hasn't made an issue out of it... I suspect they either don't know (its not like these are available to civillians in an explosive form anyway) or they realise that if they took it to court on a more standardized platform that was easily recognizable as a normal component part they could loose.

Well they sure as hell know now. Why would anyone blab on the internet something like this? Especially when it's known that DOJ-types comb through these threads for info?