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Librarian
04-22-2009, 6:05 PM
We see from AB 357 that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill. 469 Private Citizens
It appears that the communications to the committee members are not being counted in that number. Perhaps we can fix that.

Let's try faxing directly to the committee itself (that is, the committee in which a particular bill is currently being considered) some very simple documents - short, no arguments, just taking a position. Save the long communications for the members who cast votes, we're trying to affect just a statistic here.

So, something like

Joe Librarian
Street
City, Zip Code

Date

Assembly Committee on <whatever>

Please count me as a private citizen opposed to AB962

Here's the list of Committee FAX numbers:

ASSEMBLY
Appropriations Fax: 916-319-2181
Budget Fax: 916-319-2199
Education: Fax: 916-319-2187
Health: Fax: 916-319-2197
Housing: Fax: 916-319-3182
Human Services: Fax: 916-319-2189
Judiciary: Fax: 916-319-2188
Public Safety: Fax: 916-319-3745
Transportation: Fax: 916-319-2193

SENATE
Appropriations: Fax: 916-
Budget: Fax: 916-323-8386
Education: Fax: 916-445-7799
Health: Fax: 916-324-0384
Human Services: Fax: 916-327-9478
Judiciary: Fax: 916-445-8390
Transportation: Fax: 916-445-2209
Public Safety: Fax: 916-445-4688

(I'm working on getting the missing Senate number)

ETA

Now, there is an argument that trying to address a bill in either Appropriations Committee isn't going to be very helpful.

If the Committees were doing their particular jobs, all Appropriations would be doing would be determining where it was that the money would come from to pay for a new program a bill creates. Does the bill add a fee, and thus is somewhat self-supporting? Is there General Fund or other fund money that can be used for the purpose? Those kinds of issues are usually the primary concern of Appropriations.

If we supposed that the members of Appropriations were focused on that job while acting in that role, we'd have to come up with 'this is too expensive' kinds of arguments to influence votes there. That would also have to suppose that anti-gun ideologues would suppress their revulsion for all things gun and vote on fiscal merits. I find myself unable to make that supposition - but it's an excellent rebuttal from a committee member: "your arguments are not fiscal (even though my vote is not given by fiscal concerns) so they go in the round file".

Crusader
04-22-2009, 6:10 PM
Any phone numbers or emails? I don't have a fax machine...

Nanook
04-22-2009, 6:15 PM
I haven't tried it, but there is a service: http://faxzero.com/ that will let you send two free faxes per day. All you need to do is upload a .pdf file (or .doc) and provide them with the fax number.

Anyone know if you can put a bogus email in the email field? If not, you can always use a disposable one from http://www.mailinator.com/ . ;)

Fight the power!

[EDIT] And I have used http://www.maxemail.com/ for years. It's similar to eFax, but you don't need any extra software, as it's all done through email. You get your own fax number, $24/year for a non-local one, incoming faxes are free and outgoing are about 5/page.

jrau13
04-22-2009, 6:34 PM
Just faxed all of the Assembly with my eFax account. I will do the Senate later.

1BigPea
04-22-2009, 6:44 PM
I haven't tried it, but there is a service: http://faxzero.com/ that will let you send two free faxes per day. All you need to do is upload a .pdf file (or .doc) and provide them with the fax number.
Anyone know if you can put a bogus email in the email field? If not, you can always use a disposable one from http://www.mailinator.com/ . ;)

Fight the power!

Bonus.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

Librarian
04-22-2009, 7:30 PM
Anyone know if you can put a bogus email in the email field? If not, you can always use a disposable one from http://www.mailinator.com/ . ;)



Not such a good idea, IMO. We want to convince the legislators that there is real popular opposition or support, not six people who know how to game the system.

It would be embarrassing to have a fax-stuffing effort revealed; if I were to discover one of those from the anti-gun folks, you can be sure I'd try to make a big deal out of it.

Nanook
04-22-2009, 7:40 PM
Not such a good idea, IMO. We want to convince the legislators that there is real popular opposition or support, not six people who know how to game the system.

It would be embarrassing to have a fax-stuffing effort revealed; if I were to discover one of those from the anti-gun folks, you can be sure I'd try to make a big deal out of it.You've got me all wrong. The email is required by that free fax page I posted in order to send the fax, for spamming purposes I assume. My question was for anyone who had used it, in regards to if they first send you an email with a link to click to complete the sending process, or if it's just a "required" field. In either case, it won't go in the body of the fax and it won't allow anyone to "fax-stuff." Well, any more than any fax machine would; actually less so, as you can only send 2 per day from there.

And I would hope anyone sending a fax would include the basic information the phone call takers ask for: a name and zip code, so one "vote" per person or business.

Theseus
04-22-2009, 7:46 PM
My fax machine is broken, but if you all want to e-mail them to me I will then forward them using E-fax of something.

Or maybe we can get the NRA people to help us use their e-mail like system to do a reverse fax system? There are some tech people here that should be able to work something out.

D.R.E.
04-22-2009, 7:47 PM
We see from AB 357 that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill.
It appears that the communications to the committee members are not being counted in that number. Perhaps we can fix that.
...

...
ASSEMBLY
Appropriations Fax: 916-319-2181
Budget Fax: 916-319-2199
Education: Fax: 916-319-2187

Excellent, concrete advice.

Thanks for all the numbers!

otteray
04-22-2009, 8:04 PM
This is a great help.
I think the NRA alerts only mention the individual member's contact number.
Who can contact the right person there and have it fixed?
Is it up to each seperate commitee to decide if only individual or group letters/faxes count? Whacky.

Librarian
04-22-2009, 10:07 PM
You've got me all wrong. The email is required by that free fax page I posted in order to send the fax, for spamming purposes I assume. My question was for anyone who had used it, in regards to if they first send you an email with a link to click to complete the sending process, or if it's just a "required" field. In either case, it won't go in the body of the fax and it won't allow anyone to "fax-stuff." Well, any more than any fax machine would; actually less so, as you can only send 2 per day from there.

And I would hope anyone sending a fax would include the basic information the phone call takers ask for: a name and zip code, so one "vote" per person or business.

I apologize for the misapprehension - things like 'bogus email' trip my alarms.

Nanook
04-22-2009, 10:17 PM
I apologize for the misapprehension - things like 'bogus email' trip my alarms.

:cheers2:

Dark&Good
04-23-2009, 12:22 AM
Can I fax if I'm not a citizen? I'm legal alien, permanent resident.

DDT
04-23-2009, 12:59 AM
Can I fax if I'm not a citizen? I'm legal alien, permanent resident.

That depends, which star-system are you originally from?

I think Gray's are ok but I'm pretty sure interdimensional shadow people can't.

Dark&Good
04-23-2009, 1:08 AM
Betelgeuse

otteray
04-23-2009, 6:35 AM
It appears to work!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2360183&postcount=148

vladbutsky
04-23-2009, 8:00 AM
We see from AB 357 that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill.
It appears that the communications to the committee members are not being counted in that number. Perhaps we can fix that.

Let's try faxing directly to the committee itself (that is, the committee in which a particular bill is currently being considered) some very simple documents - short, no arguments, just taking a position. Save the long communications for the members who cast votes, we're trying to affect just a statistic here.


Please add a poll to this thread to see how many CalGunners sent faxes. This way we will have at least something to verify that "469" number in future.

Librarian
04-23-2009, 8:26 AM
Please add a poll to this thread to see how many CalGunners sent faxes. This way we will have at least something to verify that "469" number in future.

Interesting idea, but my 'post' page doesn't show thread tools - I don't see how to accomplish that.

jrau13
04-23-2009, 8:30 AM
Please add a poll to this thread to see how many CalGunners sent faxes. This way we will have at least something to verify that "469" number in future.

Not a bad idea.


maybe a mod can assist?

Theseus
04-23-2009, 8:35 AM
I wonder if we can make a system that would allow a person to complete the form, fax to the appropriate committee for the appropriate bill AND track the number.

I would expect that as long as we don't preserve personally identifiable information there would be a positive response.

vladbutsky
04-23-2009, 1:51 PM
Can moderator create a permanent topic or section with polls on different issues that require calling/mailing/emailing/faxing?
I can create it myself but it needs to be visible to everyone who visits CalGuns if we want decent results.

Dark&Good
04-23-2009, 5:56 PM
Anybody knows if I can contribute? (see earlier post/question)

Nanook
04-23-2009, 6:53 PM
Anybody knows if I can contribute? (see earlier post/question)

Well, seeing as how these faxes are generally signed with a name, town and zip code, I would imagine there is nothing stopping you from sending a fax.

Whether or not it is ethical to express an opinion even though you are not legally able to buy a gun or vote in the election of Assembly members (?) I leave to the ethics professors. I would certainly say casting a vote in an election would be not only unethical, but illegal, but writing to express an opinion? Personally, I don't see a problem with it.

Dark&Good
04-23-2009, 7:24 PM
Well, seeing as how these faxes are generally signed with a name, town and zip code, I would imagine there is nothing stopping you from sending a fax.

Whether or not it is ethical to express an opinion even though you are not legally able to buy a gun or vote in the election of Assembly members (?) I leave to the ethics professors. I would certainly say casting a vote in an election would be not only unethical, but illegal, but writing to express an opinion? Personally, I don't see a problem with it.

Thanks, you're right: it's an opinion.

(and I am legally able to buy a gun, as a permanent resident)

jjperl
04-23-2009, 7:51 PM
Just sent my faxes out :thumbsup:

Nanook
04-23-2009, 9:14 PM
Thanks, you're right: it's an opinion.

(and I am legally able to buy a gun, as a permanent resident)

My pleasure, and sorry! My google-fu is weak.

swhatb
04-23-2009, 9:22 PM
Librarian, what do you mean that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill? How do we know that number, and what is that number? I called everyone one of the members and gave them my name and the city of which I live.

We see from AB 357 that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill.
It appears that the communications to the committee members are not being counted in that number. Perhaps we can fix that.

Let's try faxing directly to the committee itself (that is, the committee in which a particular bill is currently being considered) some very simple documents - short, no arguments, just taking a position. Save the long communications for the members who cast votes, we're trying to affect just a statistic here.

So, something like

Joe Librarian
Street
City, Zip Code

Date

Assembly Committee on <whatever>

Please count me as a private citizen opposed to AB962

Here's the list of Committee FAX numbers:

ASSEMBLY
Appropriations Fax: 916-319-2181
Budget Fax: 916-319-2199
Education: Fax: 916-319-2187
Health: Fax: 916-319-2197
Housing: Fax: 916-319-3182
Human Services: Fax: 916-319-2189
Judiciary: Fax: 916-319-2188
Public Safety: Fax: 916-319-3745
Transportation: Fax: 916-319-2193

SENATE
Appropriations: Fax: 916-
Budget: Fax: 916-323-8386
Education: Fax: 916-445-7799
Health: Fax: 916-324-0384
Human Services: Fax: 916-327-9478
Judiciary: Fax: 916-445-8390
Transportation: Fax: 916-445-2209
Public Safety: Fax: 916-

(I'm working on getting the missing Senate numbers)

Librarian
04-23-2009, 9:41 PM
Librarian, what do you mean that only a small number of "private citizens" are listed in the committee analysis as supporting the bill? How do we know that number, and what is that number? I called everyone one of the members and gave them my name and the city of which I live.

The line I referred to is from the Assembly Public Safety Committee analysis of AB 357 -
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_357_cfa_20090420_114146_asm_comm.html

REGISTERED SUPPORT / OPPOSITION :

Support

American Justice Center
California Association of Firearms Retailers

AB 357
Page 6

California Rifle and Pistol Association
Gun Owners of California
Hi-Caliber Investigations
National Rifle Association
Stutchman Forensic Laboratory
469 Private Citizens
I don't know how the committee got that number, thus this thread suggesting we force the count without allowing the individual members to filter our contacts.

obeygiant
04-24-2009, 2:49 PM
I wonder if we can make a system that would allow a person to complete the form, fax to the appropriate committee for the appropriate bill AND track the number.

I would expect that as long as we don't preserve personally identifiable information there would be a positive response.

I've been thinking the exact same thing but would want to take it a step further and allow a pre-generated letter to be filled out with user submitted info and then sent via email,fax and possibly pre-populating the form to email sites.

I've got some limited scripting knowledge but this type of undertaking would require some well seasoned web-programmers.

If anyone out there has the talent and is willing to work with me I'd be happy to invest the time in it as I think it would be a great benefit for the forum.

obeygiant
04-25-2009, 10:23 PM
Added some additional contact information and cleaned up the formatting.

How to Contact-city-county-state-govt (http://www.4shared.com/file/101774432/87845e2b/How_to_Contact-city-county-state-govt-r10.html)

Dark&Good
04-25-2009, 11:12 PM
Nice job!

Legasat
04-25-2009, 11:34 PM
Good Job All & Thanks.

I will be faxing tomorrow.

Can'thavenuthingood
04-26-2009, 9:37 AM
Do we know who is counting these FAX'es and why not the phone calls?

Or emails for that matter.
So snail mail must have a separate counter?

How come the Citizen count does not include all forms of contact?

Vick

Librarian
04-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Do we know who is counting these FAX'es and why not the phone calls?

Or emails for that matter.
So snail mail must have a separate counter?

How come the Citizen count does not include all forms of contact?

Vick

I think we just don't know who is counting or how.

I'm pretty sure each legislator's office is tallying +/- for all forms of contact, but I'm guessing that number is not being shared with anyone. It would be hard to argue that the 400 calls received by X were not from the same 400 people who called Y (or were all different people) without a central comment collection process.

The Legislature actually seems to have one of those:
(1) there's a 'Send Comment To Author" button at the bottom of each index page for Assembly bills (not implemented for Senate bills)
(2) and there is a more general tool hidden away in the maze of legislative web sites; I posted the link once, and can't find it today.

There is a second version of (1) on the assembly web site, but it's broken. Lets you see bill info OK, but when you try to comment, doesn't recognize that 357 is an Assembly bill, even after retrieving all the info!

obeygiant
04-26-2009, 9:10 PM
I think we just don't know who is counting or how.

The Legislature actually seems to have one of those:
(1) there's a 'Send Comment To Author" button at the bottom of each index page for Assembly bills (not implemented for Senate bills)
(2) and there is a more general tool hidden away in the maze of legislative web sites; I posted the link once, and can't find it today.

There is a second version of (1) on the assembly web site, but it's broken. Lets you see bill info OK, but when you try to comment, doesn't recognize that 357 is an Assembly bill, even after retrieving all the info!

It looks like the Send Comment to Author button sends you to a page with standard url that could easily be modified to go directly to the send comments page of any bill if one were to know the author's last name and the bill #.

Not a big deal but might save some time when trying to contact them about the bill.

http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/legcomment.asp?bill_number=ab_962&author=de_leon

substituted with a different bill and author

http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/legcomment.asp?bill_number=ab_225&author=miller

goes directly to their send comments page.

Theseus
04-27-2009, 12:04 AM
I have tried to submit using those forms. SQL failure.

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14'
[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Violation of PRIMARY KEY constraint 'PK_usercomment'. Cannot insert duplicate key in object 'usercomment'.
/acs/legcomment/submitcomment.asp, line 69

It looks like the Send Comment to Author button sends you to a page with standard url that could easily be modified to go directly to the send comments page of any bill if one were to know the author's last name and the bill #.

Not a big deal but might save some time when trying to contact them about the bill.

http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/legcomment.asp?bill_number=ab_962&author=de_leon

substituted with a different bill and author

http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/legcomment.asp?bill_number=ab_225&author=miller

goes directly to their send comments page.

vladbutsky
04-27-2009, 8:38 AM
I have tried to submit using those forms. SQL failure.
I've got HTTP 500 Internal Server Error

Can'thavenuthingood
04-27-2009, 12:26 PM
So its merely a Facade to placate the masses?

Vick

Librarian
04-27-2009, 1:13 PM
So its merely a Facade to placate the masses?

Vick
That, or a mis-feature of the software.

Having worked for Sybase, it's my opinion they'd be better off with the real current SQL-Server (Adaptive Server 15, actually), not Sybase SQL-Server 4 as mangled by Microsoft.

(Though, really, the error Theseus posted probably wouldn't be fixed by changing DB servers.)

Theseus
04-27-2009, 2:34 PM
Maybe they know who I am and are just blocking me?

:TFH:

That, or a mis-feature of the software.

Having worked for Sybase, it's my opinion they'd be better off with the real current SQL-Server (Adaptive Server 15, actually), not Sybase SQL-Server 4 as mangled by Microsoft.

(Though, really, the error Theseus posted probably wouldn't be fixed by changing DB servers.)

obeygiant
04-27-2009, 2:41 PM
Sent the following email off to csgnet@net.ca.gov who is supposedly responsible for the site according to whois.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Send Comments on Assembly Bills ends up with SQL error
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 2:33:47 -0700
From: me
To: csgnet@net.ca.gov



As an example here is a bill that I wanted to comment on so I went to the link below
http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/legcomment.asp?bill_number=ab_962&author=de_leon

Filled in my information and clicked submit which seends me to this page.
http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/submitcomment.asp and it returned the following error:

With all of the fields filled out per the requirements of the form
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14'

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Violation of PRIMARY KEY constraint 'PK_usercomment'. Cannot insert duplicate key in object 'usercomment'.

/acs/legcomment/submitcomment.asp, line 69

Didn't fill in anything on this page but instead tried clicking the anonymous box entered my comments and clicked submit which sent me here:
http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/legcomment/submitcomment.asp and it returned the following error:

With only anonymous box checked
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14'

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Cannot insert the value NULL into column 'int', table 'govdev_acs.dbo.legcomment'; column does not allow nulls. INSERT fails.

/acs/legcomment/submitcomment.asp, line 86