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View Full Version : Cheer up people, look at where we are at.


nicki
04-22-2009, 12:47 PM
Many of us are concerned about going backwards, we are going back to our past.

Our past does not have to equal our future, it only equals out future if we let it.

Heller was a gift to us from Robert Levy LLP. Had he not personally funded the case, where would we be today.

What kind of things would we be posting about if at all.

I think we would be in a world of ****. So the message to me is clear, we must go on offense.

The Heller decision is not perfect, but the original case was a tailored and very narrow case to start with.

It was done that way so that we could get the fundamental questions answered. The goals of the case were.

1. Is a second amendment a individual right
2. Is a ban on common arms constitutional
3. Is there a right to functional firearms.

The case did not challenge licensing, registration, carry bans etc.
It did not deal with state laws since DC is a Federal enclave.

The fact that the issue of "sensitive zones" is coming up is indicating that the decision recognizes we have a "right to carry".

"Sensitive zones and Reasonable restrictions" will be clarified in future court cases.

My gut tells me that Scalia deliberately put these in the ruling so as to create more court cases so that the courts could be used quickly to reform gun laws.

Yes Alameda won in Nordyke and since they "won", they can't appeal the incorporation of the second amendment.

The "Sensitive Zone or reasoanble restrictions" however can be appealed by our side, and now we have a narrow appeal that would deal with those issues and not the whole 2nd amendment incorporation issue.

The case was going to be appealed regardless of what happened. I'm not a lawyer, but having the incorporation issue off the table now seems good for us.

If I told you 5 years ago that the SCOTUS would rule that the 2nd amendment was a individual right and that the 9th circuit would concur, what would you have said to me:p

Nicki

Roadrunner
04-22-2009, 1:11 PM
I'm as giddy as a school girl right now. :party:

SwissFluCase
04-22-2009, 1:24 PM
I think I can see where the morale issue is coming from. Gun ownership has been under such constant attack for the last 45 years that most of us have grown up in a world of diminishing expectations. In the 60's most of the shooters were convinced that America would be gun free by the year 2000.

I remember the bad old days. Centralized media had a stranglehold on the flow of information, and most gun owners felt that they were in the minority. The main 2A tactic back then was to stay underneath the radar. This is when the NRA was trying to compromise its way out of the situation. It looked like such a losing battle that the goal was to hold on to a core set of rights as long as possible. Hunting arms and handguns in the home were the line in the sand.

Then along came the Internet. RKBA supporters were finally able to compare notes, and starting working as a group. We started getting things like CCW. More importantly, we changed the nature of the RKBA debate. We tossed "sporting purpose" out the window, and the anti's were forced to reframe their debate. The scholarly types reexamined the 2A and started publishing papers.

I think the turning point in this country was the .gov response to hurricane Katrina. The citizenry saw for the first time what an out of control government was willing to do to US citizens. It was after that event that I personally saw former anti's learning to shoot. I am convinced that SCOTUS would not have ruled the way they did had Katrina not occured.

Now we are winning. We are on high ground, and the anti's know it. They will make their last stand, so don't be surprised when a bunch of bad bills start moving. It *will* happen. We have the tools to fight it now.

The problem with being on the losing side for so long is that the RKBA mindset is still in a defensive mode. We have all spent our entire lives seeing our rights being peeled away. It's going to take some time for the average gun owner to adjust. We no long have to fear angering the anti's and fearing their wrath. We can finally defeat them.

I had very clear dreams about this happening about ten years ago, placing the time at the end of 2010. That is when I knew we were going to win.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

KWA-S
04-22-2009, 1:38 PM
Yeah, I think a lot of people here are feeling down because we marketed Nordyke almost like Obama. we had HOPE and CHANGE but instead of YES WE CAN we had TWO WEEKS (:rolleyes:). People got to thinking that when we got Nordyke, we would overnight see automatic M249s in every gun shop, Home Depot, and liquor store.

Nordyke is like a rifle. It puts bullets downrange, but its not going downrange itself.

If I told you 5 years ago that the SCOTUS would rule that the 2nd amendment was a individual right and that the 9th circuit would concur, what would you have said to me
Probably something stupid and unrelated or a blank stare. I was in seventh grade and really only cared about A-Team reruns, Medal of Honor, and girls.

I think its pretty cool how CGN has taught me more about laws, legal procedures, and patriotism than all of high school combined. :thumbsup:

PatriotnMore
04-22-2009, 1:40 PM
I agree that the internet is one of the best networking tools for the gun community. Also, I have been very pleased with the high court rulings of late, but as SwissFluCase points out, since the 70's, I have witnessed so much anti gun, anti 2A laws, I am always expecting the worse.

What is very frustrating to me, and others is the plain language of the Constitution, and yet it is ignored and side stepped by those sworn to protect and defend it.

I really object to verbiage by those who try to explain what the constitution really means. Don't piss on my back, and tell me it's raining, I know the difference.

I really hope we do go pro-active, rather than re-active to poor, or blatant anti Constitutional gun laws, and finally put to rest many of these issues.

CCWFacts
04-22-2009, 1:42 PM
I would add another poll option: I thought it would happen, and it would be a defendant like a modern-day Miller, and we would be stomped.

In fact, we came within a hair's-breadth of that outcome. Bush came within a few votes of losing, which would have meant President Gore, which would have meant no Roberts and Alito, which would have meant losing.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
04-22-2009, 2:02 PM
Some liberal constitutional law scholars, like Tribe and Dershowitz who has been pretty vocal about it, have been saying for some time that the second amendment is an individual right but that it is subject to reasonable regulations. So far this is playing out pretty much like they predicted.

Texas Boy
04-22-2009, 2:10 PM
...In fact, we came within a hair's-breadth of that outcome. Bush came within a few votes of losing, which would have meant President Gore, which would have meant no Roberts and Alito, which would have meant losing.

Sobering. Hard to say who Gore would have appointed and how he/she would have voted, but you make a very good point.

As a gun owner I'm obviously very pleased to see my rights slowly being restored. However, as a US citizen I am ecstatic to see some of the government's ever expanding powers being put back in check. Or to put it another way - while I certainly hope for an end to the anti gun laws, I'm even more excited about the bigger picture - the awakening of the US population to their fundamental rights as humans and vigilance to strike down any government action that infringes upon those rights. We have been a nation of sheep for too long.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2009, 2:27 PM
Yeah, I think a lot of people here are feeling down because we marketed Nordyke almost like Obama. we had HOPE and CHANGE but instead of YES WE CAN we had TWO WEEKS (:rolleyes:). People got to thinking that when we got Nordyke, we would overnight see automatic M249s in every gun shop, Home Depot, and liquor store.

Nordyke is like a rifle. It puts bullets downrange, but its not going downrange itself.


Probably something stupid and unrelated or a blank stare. I was in seventh grade and really only cared about A-Team reruns, Medal of Honor, and girls.

I think its pretty cool how CGN has taught me more about laws, legal procedures, and patriotism than all of high school combined. :thumbsup:

I remember 7th grade, that was when Columbine happened. During the whole class psychological help session post-Columbine, I was the only one that asked what kind of guns were used and why weren't the teachers armed.

I was scolded.

Lame.

Nodda Duma
04-22-2009, 2:33 PM
lol in 7th grade I was practicing Cold War "duck and cover" drills.

Trust me, the world is definitely a better place than it was.

-Jason

CCWFacts
04-22-2009, 2:45 PM
Sobering. Hard to say who Gore would have appointed and how he/she would have voted, but you make a very good point.

Yes, sobering indeed. That's why the NRA was reluctant to have such cases happen. Heller came unimaginably close to not being viable, and if it hadn't happen then, would it have been possible in the future? I don't think so.

As for who Gore would have appointed, I have no idea, but I know how they would have voted on Heller. It's beyond any doubt. We only won because we had some real, solid conservative justices appointed by Bush, the type of people Gore would never have allowed.

FreshTapCoke
04-22-2009, 2:55 PM
My first taste of the judicial system was with Y&G model government in 95, acting as an Apellate Court Justice in the Capitol.

I remember struggling back then, trying to think of ways we could reverse the tide of gun control with an individual rights ruling on the 2nd.

Never would I have imagined that within 15 years we'd be on the offensive.

valleyguy
04-22-2009, 3:41 PM
Just wish I could get some ammo.... The RKBA is no good if we don't have anything to shoot in our guns. Even .22lr is gone where I live :(

SwissFluCase
04-22-2009, 4:12 PM
Just wish I could get some ammo.... The RKBA is no good if we don't have anything to shoot in our guns. Even .22lr is gone where I live :(

I'm wondering how much demand has been created by new shooters who have suddenly been inspired to excersise their rights? I imagine quite a bit...

Regards,


SwissFluCase

KWA-S
04-22-2009, 4:56 PM
I was scolded.

Lame.

Ah, that. I got suspended for "promoting violence" when I asked why teachers didn't have guns in case something bad happened on campus. I was under the impression that teachers were like demi-cops at the time (like they could detain people and stuff). 3rd grade, after the cops came to our school to show us their handcuffs, guns, and cars, and tell us not to do drugs.

Lame.

N6ATF
04-22-2009, 5:47 PM
I remember 7th grade, that was when Columbine happened. During the whole class psychological help session post-Columbine, I was the only one that asked what kind of guns were used and why weren't the teachers armed.

I was scolded.

Lame.

When Columbine happened, I was already into my second semester of independent study (home school with school district teacher meetings once a week), so I missed all that, just got a letter.

Not sure what I would have said if it had happened a year earlier.

9/11 was in my last year of high school (early grad), when I was a teacher's aide at a high school. My hours started 4th or 5th period so I got the news at home. I thought it was best if I went in, hugged the girl I loved (not sure if she appreciated it or not), and I don't remember the rest of the day. Since I was quasi-staff, older than my years, and psych has always been a hobby of mine, I just wanted to be there for everyone. I didn't really question what and why it happened until later.

RomanDad
04-22-2009, 5:47 PM
Many of us are concerned about going backwards, we are going back to our past.

Our past does not have to equal our future, it only equals out future if we let it.

Heller was a gift to us from Robert Levy LLP. Had he not personally funded the case, where would we be today.

What kind of things would we be posting about if at all.

I think we would be in a world of ****. So the message to me is clear, we must go on offense.

The Heller decision is not perfect, but the original case was a tailored and very narrow case to start with.

It was done that way so that we could get the fundamental questions answered. The goals of the case were.

1. Is a second amendment a individual right
2. Is a ban on common arms constitutional
3. Is there a right to functional firearms.

The case did not challenge licensing, registration, carry bans etc.
It did not deal with state laws since DC is a Federal enclave.

The fact that the issue of "sensitive zones" is coming up is indicating that the decision recognizes we have a "right to carry".

"Sensitive zones and Reasonable restrictions" will be clarified in future court cases.

My gut tells me that Scalia deliberately put these in the ruling so as to create more court cases so that the courts could be used quickly to reform gun laws.

Yes Alameda won in Nordyke and since they "won", they can't appeal the incorporation of the second amendment.

The "Sensitive Zone or reasoanble restrictions" however can be appealed by our side, and now we have a narrow appeal that would deal with those issues and not the whole 2nd amendment incorporation issue.

The case was going to be appealed regardless of what happened. I'm not a lawyer, but having the incorporation issue off the table now seems good for us.

If I told you 5 years ago that the SCOTUS would rule that the 2nd amendment was a individual right and that the 9th circuit would concur, what would you have said to me:p

Nicki

Cheer up? You couldn't wipe the grin off my face with a bench sander and a bottle of windex.

Musclemom
04-22-2009, 6:45 PM
I certainly never would have thought we'd have a case like Heller if you asked me 5 years ago. At least I wouldn't have thought it would come out the way that it did. And I certainly never guessed that Nordyke would go the way it did. I figured the something like that would have to go to SCOTUS, and that there was no way in hell that the 9th circuit would ever make a pro gun ruling.

I also have to say I'm surprised to learn the young age of several calguns posters! You guys are wise for your years :) I was deployed with Columbine happened, so only heard snippet about it. I learned the whole deal upon returning back to the States. I'll never forget the morning of 9/11, but that's a longer story not for here. It did however, bring me back to active duty for another 2 years :)

Kid Stanislaus
04-22-2009, 7:11 PM
lol in 7th grade I was practicing Cold War "duck and cover" drills. Trust me, the world is definitely a better place than it was. -Jason


Hey, I got that stuff in the SECOND grade (1949), you must be a REALLY old codger!:p

Nodda Duma
04-22-2009, 8:26 PM
Hey, I got that stuff in the SECOND grade (1949), you must be a REALLY old codger!:p

Nah, not that old. Just grew up in the Midwest :) Did duck and cover drills from Kindergarten through to High School (Berlin Wall fell when I was in 10th grade). Those grade school desks were proof for nuclear attacks *and* tornadoes!

-Jason

lioneaglegriffin
04-22-2009, 9:14 PM
Nah, not that old. Just grew up in the Midwest :) Did duck and cover drills from Kindergarten through to High School (Berlin Wall fell when I was in 10th grade). Those grade school desks were proof for nuclear attacks *and* tornadoes!

-Jason

of course what do you think shockwave from a nuke is, a big gust of wind. ;)

KylaGWolf
04-22-2009, 9:24 PM
I would add another poll option: I thought it would happen, and it would be a defendant like a modern-day Miller, and we would be stomped.

In fact, we came within a hair's-breadth of that outcome. Bush came within a few votes of losing, which would have meant President Gore, which would have meant no Roberts and Alito, which would have meant losing.

Damn I remember studying the Miller case in my evidence law and criminal law classes. Thanks for the memory.

Mulay El Raisuli
04-23-2009, 7:40 AM
lol in 7th grade I was practicing Cold War "duck and cover" drills.

Trust me, the world is definitely a better place than it was.

-Jason


Not all that much better. They've re-started 'duck & cover' in some schools again. In response to drive-bys.

The Raisuli

Mulay El Raisuli
04-23-2009, 7:41 AM
I remember 7th grade, that was when Columbine happened. During the whole class psychological help session post-Columbine, I was the only one that asked what kind of guns were used and why weren't the teachers armed.

I was scolded.

Lame.


OF COURSE you were scolded. You thought something not allowed by our masters.

The Raisuli