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spyderco monkey
04-21-2009, 12:58 AM
Hey all, considering buying a tomahawk for the emergency earthquake kit. Are there any laws prohibiting 'hawks in a vehicle? What about carrying them, either openly or concealed? I know, kind of random, but your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Liberty1
04-21-2009, 1:47 AM
I'm not aware of any CA carry prohibitions on axes.

CHS
04-21-2009, 8:13 AM
It's a great idea, but I don't think the military will sell you a cruise missile.

Plus, I highly doubt you could fit one in your car.

Mulay El Raisuli
04-21-2009, 8:19 AM
On a related issue, what's the law on carrying a saber in the trunk?

The Raisuli

CABilly
04-21-2009, 8:20 AM
I dunno. What's the one where you can be charged with carrying a blunt weapon for any kind of stick (baseball bat, tire banger stick, etc.)?

pullnshoot25
04-21-2009, 8:34 AM
No laws on fixed blade knives while in the car, you just can't have it concealed on your person. Of course, college and school rules get a little weird with that but you guys get the picture.

Sutcliffe
04-21-2009, 8:53 AM
They seem a lot more innocent than a 'hawk. Can be wicked sharp and maybe be a bit more useful for digging.

bohoki
04-21-2009, 10:49 AM
I dunno. What's the one where you can be charged with carrying a blunt weapon for any kind of stick (baseball bat, tire banger stick, etc.)?


yea its illegal to have a axe handle because it is a billy club but if it had the head you are just fine


its kind of like banning nunchucks but allowing ninja swords

i guess the legislature would rather be hacked to bits than bludgeoned

sorensen440
04-21-2009, 11:22 AM
yea its illegal to have a axe handle because it is a billy club but if it had the head you are just fine


So lets say I need a new axe handle how do I get it home ?

CHS
04-21-2009, 11:31 AM
So lets say I need a new axe handle how do I get it home ?

Put a bullet button on it first.

spyderco monkey
04-21-2009, 11:37 AM
So, is this under the random blank spot in the law, like how the Hells Angels can carry ball peen hammers concealed b/c there is no law regulating the carrying of hammers?

tyrist
04-21-2009, 1:14 PM
On a related issue, what's the law on carrying a saber in the trunk?

The Raisuli

Same as dirk/dagger. You can have it concealed in a vehicle legally just not on your person.

tyrist
04-21-2009, 1:15 PM
So, is this under the random blank spot in the law, like how the Hells Angels can carry ball peen hammers concealed b/c there is no law regulating the carrying of hammers?

There is no law against carrying tools....as soon as it is used as a weapon it would become a billy.

bohoki
04-21-2009, 1:27 PM
So lets say I need a new axe handle how do I get it home ?

i'm sure they would let you slide if you had a recipt and were going straight home

i hate subjective laws like that

pullnshoot25
04-21-2009, 2:47 PM
There is no law against carrying tools....as soon as it is used as a weapon it would become a billy.

Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a handyman=OK
Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a regualr Joe=Bad
Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a regular Joe and admitting it is for self-defense=FELONY

Anything that you have that you know could reasonably be used as a stabbing implement=Felony.

Total bull, I know, but that is how the system works right now.

CHS
04-21-2009, 4:07 PM
Anything that you have that you know could reasonably be used as a stabbing implement=Felony.


You mean anything that's not already a stabbing implement?

Because my pocket knife *IS* a stabbing implement. But last I checked it's not a felony to carry.

IW378
04-21-2009, 4:53 PM
So lets say I need a new axe handle how do I get it home ?
In a locked , secure container. LOL

Tillers_Rule
04-21-2009, 4:57 PM
What if I get an erection on the way home?

DDT
04-21-2009, 5:00 PM
What if I get an erection on the way home?

I think .22 rimfire is OK.

spyderco monkey
04-21-2009, 7:00 PM
So, all sexual quips aside, can I carry a hawk on my belt/shoulder harness unconcealed? How about concealed?

Thanks

tombinghamthegreat
04-21-2009, 7:19 PM
Anything that you have that you know could reasonably be used as a stabbing implement=Felony

I don't think that would be correct, if that were true then open carrying a bowie knife would be illegal.

Shotgun Man
04-21-2009, 7:31 PM
You mean anything that's not already a stabbing implement?

Because my pocket knife *IS* a stabbing implement. But last I checked it's not a felony to carry.

I think the term of art is "readily usable as a stabbing implement." A folding knife is not readily usable as a stabbing implement in its folded state. I heard that Buck Knives lobbied the legislature to make sure that folders were exempt.

DedEye
04-21-2009, 9:40 PM
So, all sexual quips aside, can I carry a hawk on my belt/shoulder harness unconcealed? How about concealed?

Thanks

Legally I can't see anything wrong with it, but you'd more than likely be hassled for carrying unconcealed. If it's in your vehicle, you should be fine.

DedEye
04-21-2009, 9:43 PM
Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a handyman=OK
Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a regualr Joe=Bad Not true.
Screwdriver in pocket/belt as a regular Joe and admitting it is for self-defense=FELONY

Anything that you have that you know could reasonably be used as a stabbing implement=Felony. Not true. Only if you state its purpose is to use as a weapon, or if it's specifically codified as prohibited in PC12020.

Total bull, I know, but that is how the system works right now.

Not always black and white, that's for sure :mad:.

paco ramirez
04-21-2009, 9:56 PM
I suggest RMJ Tactical Tomahawks. The Shrike is especially awesome.

http://ez061134.ezdriven.com/products-page/hammer-forged-tomahawk/

Mulay El Raisuli
04-22-2009, 7:10 AM
Same as dirk/dagger. You can have it concealed in a vehicle legally just not on your person.


Cool.

The Raisuli

Untamed1972
04-22-2009, 10:06 AM
Same as dirk/dagger. You can have it concealed in a vehicle legally just not on your person.

So carrying a non-folding knife in your boot is illegal?

paradox
04-22-2009, 11:41 AM
So carrying a non-folding knife in your boot is illegal?

Yes.

Carrying a folding knife in your boot is legal.

Carrying a non-folding knife strapped to your boot SCUBA diver style is legal.

The law is dumb. If I have the time, I'll dig up the case law I posted about this previously...

paradox
04-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Here's a blast from posts past (or how institutional knowledge is the lifeblood of online forums)

Here's a thread where I proposed sending a letter to the DOJ to qualify where exactly a tomahawk would fit. I never did send the letter, but I still think my reasoning holds:
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=84208&highlight=PC%A712020

Here's a list of excerpts of the controlling case law. I recommend looking up the actual cases and reading them. There's some crazy stuff in there...

People v. Grubb

Thus we hold that the statute embraces instruments other than those specially created or manufactured for criminal purposes; it specifically includes those objects "of the kind commonly known as a billy." The concomitant circumstances may well proclaim the danger of even the innocent-appearing utensil. The Legislature thus decrees as criminal the possession of ordinarily harmless objects when the circumstances of possession demonstrate an immediate atmosphere of danger. Accordingly the statute would encompass the possession of a table leg, in one sense an obviously useful item, when it is detached from the table and carried at night in a "tough" neighborhood to the scene of a riot. On the other hand the section would not penalize the Little Leaguer at bat in a baseball game.

[7] Applying this test to the instant case, we find the possession of the altered baseball bat, taped at the smaller end, heavier at the unbroken end, carried about in the car, obviously usable as a "billy," clearly not transported for the purpose of playing baseball, violates the statute.



People v. Golden

On August 13, 1945, about 1:15 a. m., defendant was stopped by two police officers while driving his automobile between Second and Third Streets on Beacon Street in Los Angeles. The police searched the car and discovered under the seat a "monkey fist," a photograph of which is attached hereto, marked People's Exhibit A. fn. * At the time of the trial an expert witness, Mr. Flinker, an able-bodied seaman, identified People's Exhibit A as a "monkey fist," an object used at the end of a heaving line. It is a weight attached to the end of a line so that when a line is heaved or thrown it will reach the dock. He testified that People's Exhibit A was a standard "monkey fist."

...

It is evident from a reading of the foregoing statute that the possession of a "monkey fist" is not made illegal by such act nor is a "monkey fist" commonly known as a black-jack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckle. Hence it is clear that there is a total absence of any evidence to sustain defendant's conviction of a violation of the aforementioned law.




THE PEOPLE, v. SEAN KING

First, the prosecution must prove that the item had the necessary
characteristic to fall within the statutory description. It must also prove that the
defendant knew of the characteristic. That is, it must prove that a defendant
charged with possession of a short-barreled rifle knew the rifle was unusually
short, but the defendant need not know the rifle’s actual dimensions. Similarly, a
defendant charged with illegally possessing a cane sword must know that the cane
contained a sword, and a defendant charged with possessing a writing pen knife
must know that the pen contained a stabbing instrument. Knowledge can, of
course, be proved circumstantially. Further, the prosecution need not prove that
the defendant knew there was a law against possessing the item, nor that the
defendant intended to break or violate the law.




THE PEOPLE v. ERNESTO ARNOLDO RUBALCAVA

the Legislature recognized that the new definition may criminalize the “innocent” carrying of legal instruments such as steak knives, scissors and metal knitting needles, but concluded “there is no need to carry such items concealed in public.” As a result, the Legislature made “[t]he unlawful concealed carrying of a dirk or dagger in Section 12020 . . . a general intent crime” and expressly stated that “[n]o intent for unlawful use would be required for violations of the prohibition on the concealed possession upon the person of an otherwise lawful dirk or dagger.”

Thus, the legislative history is clear and unequivocal: the intent to use the concealed instrument as a stabbing instrument is not an element of the crime of carrying a concealed dirk or dagger. Indeed, the offense has never had such an intent requirement, and we find nothing suggesting an intent by the Legislature to alter this established rule.
...

As an initial matter, we dispel a misconception fostered by Oskins and repeated by Rubalcava: the absence of a specific intent requirement does not make the carrying of a concealed dirk or dagger a strict liability offense. Strict liability offenses eliminate the “requirement of mens rea; that is, the requirement of a ‘guilty mind’ with respect to an element of a crime.” As such, a defendant may be guilty of a strict liability offense even if he does not know “the facts that make his conduct fit the definition of the offense.” By declining to make defendant’s intended use of the instrument an element of the offense, we do not eliminate the mens rea requirement. Because the dirk or dagger portion of section 12020 criminalizes “ ‘traditionally lawful conduct,’ ” we construe the statute to contain a “knowledge” element. Thus, to commit the offense, a defendant must still have the requisite guilty mind: that is, the defendant must knowingly and intentionally carry concealed upon his or her person an instrument “that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon.” A defendant who does not know that he is carrying the weapon or that the concealed instrument may be used as a stabbing weapon is therefore not guilty of violating section 12020.6

...

Even though section 12020 may seem overbroad as a matter of common sense, we will not find it unconstitutionally overbroad without some concrete impairment of constitutionally protected conduct.

Although we conclude that section 12020 is not unconstitutionally vague or overbroad, we echo the concerns over the breadth of the statute raised by Rubalcava. As written, section 12020, subdivisions (a) and (c)(24) may criminalize seemingly innocent conduct. Consequently, the statute may invite arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement not due to any vagueness in the statutory language but due to the wide range of otherwise innocent conduct it proscribes. Indeed, the Legislature suggested this very possibility. “Proponents of this bill would possibly suggest that everyone—peace officers, prosecutors, judges, and juries—knows what is considered ‘bad’ carrying of a concealed dirk or dagger, cite Grubb (supra), and argue that is the protection against possibly overzealous use of the Penal Code proscriptions on such conduct?”




THE PEOPLE v. JOHNNY RALPH FANNIN,

Here we consider whether a bicycle lock on a chain may be a “slungshot” within the scope of the Dangerous Weapons Control Law. (Pen. Code, § 12000 et seq.) We conclude that it may be, if the evidence proves the defendant carried it as a weapon.

...

We believe the tension must be resolved as follows. Intent to use a weapon is not an element of the crime of weapon possession. “Proof of possession alone is sufficient.” (People v. McKinney, supra, 9 Cal.App.2d at p. 525.) However, if the object is not a weapon per se, but an instrument with ordinary innocent uses, the prosecution must prove that the object was possessed as a weapon. The only way to meet that burden is by evidence “indicat[ing] that the possessor would use the object for a dangerous, not harmless, purpose.” (Grubb, supra, 63 Cal.2d at pp. 620-621, italics added.) The evidence may be circumstantial, and may be rebutted by the defendant with evidence of “innocent usage.” (Id. at p. 621.) The prosecution may not, however, merely show that the defendant had a table leg in his car while driving through a dangerous neighborhood, and require him to prove that he did not carry it as a weapon. Such a rule would turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Intended use is not an element of weapon possession, but the prosecution always bears the burden of proving that the defendant possessed a weapon. This interpretation of Grubb puts to rest the constitutional challenges raised by Fannin.

...

Like the Rubalcava court, we accept the Legislature’s determination to criminalize possession of a broad range of “instruments and weapons.” However, the Legislature has treated dirks and daggers differently than slungshots. Penal Code section 12020 does not proscribe possession of any object “capable of ready use” as a slungshot. Nor does any legislative history reflect a desire to broadly prohibit the possession of heavy objects affixed to flexible handles regardless of the possessor’s purpose. The statute proscribes possessing “any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a . . . slungshot” (Pen. Code, § 12020, subd. (a)(1)), and the judicially adopted definition specifies that a slungshot is a device “used as a weapon” (Williams, supra, 100 Cal.App. at p. 151). Therefore, when the prosecution contends an ordinary object like a bicycle lock is a kind of slungshot, it must prove the defendant possessed the object as a slungshot. On the other hand, when the defendant is charged with possessing a slungshot like the rawhide and metal device described in Mulherin, which had no conceivable innocent function, proof of mere possession is sufficient.

Fannin told Officer Oglesby that he carried the chain and padlock for self-defense. That statement identified the bicycle lock as a weapon, and brought it within the class of objects prohibited by Penal Code section 12020.

paradox
04-22-2009, 11:54 AM
Cliff's notes version:

Items listed by name in PC§12020 are illegal to possess.

"any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag" includes without a doubt anything that is sold as such, but can also include any bludgeoning instrument. Dual use items (like a table leg) are legal so long as they aren't possessed as weapons.

How do they know you possessed it as a weapon? You tell someone (especially a cop) that it is for defense, or you use it as a weapon.

Dirks and Daggers (read any non-folding object pointy enough to be able to stab someone) are legal to make, buy, sell, own, and carry unconcealed. Concealed = felony.

Having and using a dirk/dagger/pointy stick for self defense is perfectly legal. If Fannin had a machete on his lap instead of a bike chain, and everything else about the case was the same, he would have walked.

Stupid, but it's the law.

Just remember, in California, defend yourself with guns and pointy objects, never with blunt weapons.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2009, 12:46 PM
I don't think that would be correct, if that were true then open carrying a bowie knife would be illegal.

Sorry, I didn't clarify that a fixed blade implement concealed is a felony. Openly carrying a bowie is OK, concealing is bad.

spyderco monkey
04-22-2009, 4:42 PM
So I can (not sure that I will, def not an EDC lol) carry a 'hawk openly? Does it have to be on my belt, or could it be in a kydex under the armpit shoulder holster rig?

Thanks for all your help guys!

ZRX61
04-22-2009, 5:08 PM
What if I get an erection on the way home?

If it was concealable I'd probably die of embarassment....



Years ago in the UK I was walking from a Renn Fair type festival to my local pub & was juggling 3 axes as I walked along. I was ok until I rounded a corner & came face to face/whirling axes with a policeman who had a complete sense of humor failure.
He radioed for advice & got the piss ripped out of him by the cops back at the station. Then the landlord of the pub wandered over & told the cop he'd hang on to the axes until the next day when he thought I'd be sober...
Cop couldn't find any laws to book me under..especially after I pointed out they were in fact more of an entertaining, rather than offensive weapon.... altho they were razor sharp.. I still have the scars..

The Wingnut
04-22-2009, 5:16 PM
juggling 3 axes as I walked along. I was ok until I rounded a corner & came face to face/whirling axes with a policeman who had a complete sense of humor failure.

:eek:

Crusader
05-04-2009, 2:51 PM
I'm going to revive this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions for some less expensive Tomahawks? I'd like to get one to keep around the house just to say I have a Hawk.

Nodda Duma
05-04-2009, 3:04 PM
It's a great idea, but I don't think the military will sell you a cruise missile.

Plus, I highly doubt you could fit one in your car.

hah, that's what I first thought when I read the thread title.

-Jason

CHS
05-04-2009, 3:18 PM
I'm going to revive this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions for some less expensive Tomahawks? I'd like to get one to keep around the house just to say I have a Hawk.

I'm a huge fan of Estwing. They make great stuff. If you're looking for a true tomahawk, rather than a hatchet, try Cold Steel. They also make a really good product.

Both brands are very reasonably priced for their quality level.

JDay
05-04-2009, 3:18 PM
I'm going to revive this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions for some less expensive Tomahawks? I'd like to get one to keep around the house just to say I have a Hawk.

I'm pretty sure I saw a cheap one at Big 5 a month or so ago.

Decoligny
05-04-2009, 3:28 PM
I'm going to revive this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions for some less expensive Tomahawks? I'd like to get one to keep around the house just to say I have a Hawk.

Less expesnive than what?

Here are a few options from the $25.00 and up range.

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Tomahawks&srch=waDESCRIPTIONdatarq%3Dtomahawk

DedEye
05-04-2009, 3:34 PM
There was a great new Tomahawk at SHOT, but I can't remember the manufacturer. Anyone remember seeing any press about it?

wildhawker
05-04-2009, 3:38 PM
There was a great new Tomahawk at SHOT, but I can't remember the manufacturer. Anyone remember seeing any press about it?

I think I remember seeing it on Shooting Gallery or SUSA... I'll see if it's still TIVO'd

spyderco monkey
05-04-2009, 5:03 PM
This is the one I bought; its the same exact model being used by our forces in the War on Terror.

Even if it wasn't, this is the one to get. Weighs 16 oz, 5 cutting edges, and can be run over by a car without breaking (watch the video!)

http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/vtac.htm

CHS
05-04-2009, 5:43 PM
This is the one I bought; its the same exact model being used by our forces in the War on Terror.

Even if it wasn't, this is the one to get. Weighs 16 oz, 5 cutting edges, and can be run over by a car without breaking (watch the video!)

Uhh.. What one? What video?

gunsmith
05-04-2009, 8:12 PM
its not this is it?

Well, I linked a you tube vid and it didn't post. I guess I don't know the secret handshake

spyderco monkey
05-04-2009, 8:48 PM
lol in such a hurry forgot the link

http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/vtac.htm

Totally badass tool for the $, I payed $99 for mine. Have it in the emergency earthquake kit/ bag of tricks for breaching and anti-zombie capabiliy :p

ChuckBooty
05-04-2009, 8:56 PM
Imma get me a baseball bat with a railroad spike in it. Can I legally conceal that in the leg of my pants? Maybe just tell folks that I got a trick knee or something...then if they wanna mess with me...BAM! Right inna head witha baseball bat with a railroad spike in it.

CnCFunFactory
05-04-2009, 9:53 PM
It's a great idea, but I don't think the military will sell you a cruise missile.

Plus, I highly doubt you could fit one in your car.

LOL :)

popndrop
05-04-2009, 10:50 PM
Check K5tactical.com
They have a pretty slick Hawk - and reasonably priced compared to the RMJ hawks (which I would love to have also, but can't seem to find one)
Busse made a hawk through their Swamp Rat Knives company - Called it the Crash Rat - it's a pretty cool looking tool, half hawk, half breaching tool.

Suvorov
05-05-2009, 8:09 AM
Great thread! I have been looking for an axe to carry while I'm hiking as it was my understanding that they were legal to carry here in the PRK. The axe is probably the #1 tool you would want to have in a wilderness (or even urban) survival situation and most 2 legged vermin will think twice about approaching an man with an axe. These modern Tomahawks are amazing! It is funny how so much of our society overlook the axe as a self defense tool even though it is probably the 2nd oldest fighting implement (next to the club) and has been with our race since the beginning.

p7m8jg
05-05-2009, 8:28 AM
It's a great idea, but I don't think the military will sell you a cruise missile.

Plus, I highly doubt you could fit one in your car.

I want a cruise missile!!!! :Ivan:

pullnshoot25
05-05-2009, 9:19 AM
I am going to ask my brother to make me a ring so I can make a frog for my tomahawk.

I think the Tracker on crossdraw and the tomahawk on strongside should suffice.... ;)

gunsmith
05-05-2009, 10:46 AM
so the consensus is, it is legal to conceal a Tomahawk?
or do you have to open carry?
I would love to see the look on a skell's face when he is surprised by a hawk.
I surprised the dung out of a huge opponent once that had threatened to beat the h3ll outta me... by drawing a full size glock...I love surprising thug idiots.

Crusader
05-05-2009, 2:34 PM
I would say they probably need to be open carried. If nothing else, just for the fact that it will have a fixed blade. They're still badass though.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-06-2009, 9:51 AM
I am going to ask my brother to make me a ring so I can make a frog for my tomahawk.


Seeing the proper word used in the proper context leads me to ask: Just how into blades are you?

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
05-06-2009, 10:16 AM
Seeing the proper word used in the proper context leads me to ask: Just how into blades are you?

The Raisuli

Enough to know that you are and that this could lead to an interesting discussion... :)

gunsmith
05-06-2009, 4:50 PM
Enough to know that you are and that this could lead to an interesting discussion... :)

Well, I'll ask. OK, whats a "frog" in relation to blades? some kind of sheath?

One time back in my old new york days, I pulled a huge meat cleaver
on a mugger...his face turned white! LOL, this thread just reminded me of that.

B Strong
05-06-2009, 5:49 PM
The whole issue is a gray area - anything you carry or have in your vehicle that can be construed as a weapon can become a (major or minor) problem with one officer, and not a problem at all with another.

My swag would be that in the event you have an EQ kit in the vehicle that has a 'hawk, an axe or a combat shovel included, and you run into an officer that ends up searching the trunk, you should be OK (as long as your EQ kit doesn't include lockpicks, duct tape and boltcutters...)

Edit, you guys want to talk 'hawks, I'll have to take a pic of my Steve Willis Handforged 'hawk and post it up.

CHS
05-06-2009, 6:37 PM
Well, I'll ask. OK, whats a "frog" in relation to blades? some kind of sheath?


It's basically a piece of leather with a ring on it that you attach to your belt. The tomahawk handle goes through the ring to keep it by your side.

Similar to a construction tool-belt's hammer loop.

pullnshoot25
05-06-2009, 9:59 PM
The whole issue is a gray area - anything you carry or have in your vehicle that can be construed as a weapon can become a (major or minor) problem with one officer, and not a problem at all with another.

My swag would be that in the event you have an EQ kit in the vehicle that has a 'hawk, an axe or a combat shovel included, and you run into an officer that ends up searching the trunk, you should be OK (as long as your EQ kit doesn't include lockpicks, duct tape and boltcutters...)

Edit, you guys want to talk 'hawks, I'll have to take a pic of my Steve Willis Handforged 'hawk and post it up.

What are you waiting for? Jump on that!

Mulay El Raisuli
05-07-2009, 6:41 AM
Enough to know that you are and that this could lead to an interesting discussion... :)


Absolutely looking forward to that!

Besides, the 2A doesn't say "guns," does it? It says "arms" & a blade is a pretty good "arm." Its what men prefer to fight with, so that they can see each others eyes.

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
05-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Taking a little closer look at the wording of 12020, I have come to the *personal* conclusion that a tomahawk, concealed or openly carried, is completely legal. "Dangerous weapon" has a pretty specific meaning and cannot really be used as a "catch-all" like in other states.

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/th_deadlyweapon.jpg (http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/?action=view&current=deadlyweapon.jpg)

It cannot be a club unless you take off the head.
It cannot be a dirk or dagger knife as it cannot readily stab someone (unless you have that Vietnam 'hawk or something like that)

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/th_definitionofdirkordagger.jpg (http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/?action=view&current=definitionofdirkordagger.jpg)

Best tomahawk to make sure all is legal: Cold Steel Trailhawk. 2.25" blade is small enough to bypass the 2.5" fixed blade crap on university campuses (626.10), has a functional poll so none of the "dirk/dagger" crap, etc.

I am so going pseudo-frontiersman for the next OC meet.

spyderco monkey
05-21-2009, 1:34 PM
Cool, thanks for the update!

ARPirateMilitia
05-21-2009, 2:10 PM
"Put a bullet button on it" I LOL'd.

I would call the police and demand they transport the ax handle for me since I'm not trained to handle weapons of mass destruction.

pnkssbtz
05-21-2009, 2:27 PM
You mean anything that's not already a stabbing implement?

Because my pocket knife *IS* a stabbing implement. But last I checked it's not a felony to carry.If cops stop you and ask you why you have a folding knife and you say "for self defense" it's a felony as you are declaring your purpose for having it on your purpose as deadly weapon.

If you say "as a utility tool" it's ok.


It's bullsh*t but IIRC that's how it works.

pullnshoot25
05-21-2009, 4:36 PM
If cops stop you and ask you why you have a folding knife and you say "for self defense" it's a felony as you are declaring your purpose for having it on your purpose as deadly weapon.

If you say "as a utility tool" it's ok.


It's bullsh*t but IIRC that's how it works.

Not true. If you are concealing a LOCKED FOLDER or a FIXED BLADE or some other fixed stabbing device and you state that it is for self defense, then that is a felony.

You can carry a folding broadsword down your pant leg if you want to and there is nothing that can be done about it, as long as it folds (certain lame municipal ordinances on knife lengths exist but are generally unenforced if kept inconspicuous.). PC says that a concealed blade has to require assembly, e.g. folding.

rolo
05-21-2009, 6:30 PM
So, is this under the random blank spot in the law, like how the Hells Angels can carry ball peen hammers concealed b/c there is no law regulating the carrying of hammers?

Wow, that's funny you mention that. I saw an HA riding down through the center of town the other day with a sledgehammer slung across his back. It look like it had seen some use, all taped up like. He could have just CC a ball peen, but no, he had to OC a sledge.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-22-2009, 7:46 AM
I am so going pseudo-frontiersman for the next OC meet.



Speaking of which, when is the next one?

The Raisuli

Bugei
05-22-2009, 7:53 AM
I don't think that would be correct, if that were true then open carrying a bowie knife would be illegal.

Well, it is if the back edge is sharpened, right?

Bugei
05-22-2009, 7:55 AM
I suggest RMJ Tactical Tomahawks. The Shrike is especially awesome.

http://ez061134.ezdriven.com/products-page/hammer-forged-tomahawk/

I suggest a $20 framing hatchet. The difference you're paying is for the coolness of the RMJs. Not like I object to coolness; we've all paid for it in the past. But the framing hatchet will work about 95% as well for a lot less dough.

YMMV (Your Mayhem May Vary)

MudCamper
09-17-2009, 3:14 PM
Just remember, in California, defend yourself with guns and pointy objects, never with blunt weapons.

That made me laugh out loud! Classic.

I just bought this Gerber axe (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20075-cat280005-cat20893&id=0020024512472a&navCount=2&podId=0020024&parentId=&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=&indexId=cat20893&hasJS=true) from Cabelas. I have another Fiskars axe just like it but with a slightly longer handle, and I love it. (Fiskars makes them for Gerber, or Gerber owns Fiskars, or some such.) This one is is nice and tiny and comes with a really good sheath/holster. Perfect for EDC!

tube_ee
09-17-2009, 5:16 PM
that hasn't yet been mentioned.

Nobody, and I mean not-even-the-three-toothed-tweeker-who-hasn't-slept-since-the-Ford-Administration kinda nobody, nobody fscks with the dude carryin' the axe.

Nobody.

I've done this, in very, very tough 'hoods, as a younger white dude, homeless.

I can't tell you the number of times I had 'bangers roll up on me, look at the white goth dude, get that gleam in the eye... and then they'd see the hatchet. Sneer instantly turned to am "aggressively neutral" expression, eyes go from challenging stare to "are my shoes tied?", and they walked on.

I've had obviously bad dudes cross the street after seeing an axe.

There's just something about losing a limb that makes 'em think twice.

--Shannon

command_liner
09-17-2009, 5:48 PM
I suggest a $20 framing hatchet. The difference you're paying is for the coolness of the RMJs. Not like I object to coolness; we've all paid for it in the past. But the framing hatchet will work about 95% as well for a lot less dough.

YMMV (Your Mayhem May Vary)

Framing hatchets are nice, but will not do the job.

When this thread first started, I went out and got a framing hatchet.
Since I have some throwing skills, I practiced throwing and sticking
the hatchet. The handle failed in about 25 sticks. Perhaps a bad
bit of wood? So I cut it, cleaned, whittled, sawed, epoxied and
wedged it back in place. The handled failed in about 25 sticks.
Perhaps that was bad wood? New handle from the store. The handled
failed in about 25 sticks. One last time? The handled failed in about 25 sticks.

For independent trials and the handle broke off 4 times. But it sure does
impress people when you stick the hatchet hard enough to shear the
handle off the head.

Combat hatchets need a bit more strength than the nicest framing
hatched will give you.

Shotgun Man
09-17-2009, 6:49 PM
that hasn't yet been mentioned.

Nobody, and I mean not-even-the-three-toothed-tweeker-who-hasn't-slept-since-the-Ford-Administration kinda nobody, nobody fscks with the dude carryin' the axe.

Nobody.

I've done this, in very, very tough 'hoods, as a younger white dude, homeless.

I can't tell you the number of times I had 'bangers roll up on me, look at the white goth dude, get that gleam in the eye... and then they'd see the hatchet. Sneer instantly turned to am "aggressively neutral" expression, eyes go from challenging stare to "are my shoes tied?", and they walked on.

I've had obviously bad dudes cross the street after seeing an axe.

There's just something about losing a limb that makes 'em think twice.

--Shannon

Plus, it doesn't hurt when you look crazy or deranged.

GoodEyeSniper
09-17-2009, 6:56 PM
Well, it is if the back edge is sharpened, right?

Last time I checked, nothing wrong with that. There is no law that I've ever heard of dealing with double edged blades. But I've heard that same FUD from coworkers(one who was supposedly "convicted" for knife related crimes as a juvie)

It's either a folder, and concealable. Or it's fixed and not concealable.

Maybe folders can't have two sharpened edges? I know I wouldn't want a folder with two, at least. :D

Check out some axes from Ragweed Forge. They mostly all have a more classic look to them.

http://www.ragweedforge.com/ThrowingCatalog.html

Good for throwing and general use, supposedly. I bought a couple Mora knives from him recently. Great service, lots of interesting stuff on his site.

otteray
09-17-2009, 8:37 PM
Framing hatchets are nice, but will not do the job.

When this thread first started, I went out and got a framing hatchet.
Since I have some throwing skills, I practiced throwing and sticking
the hatchet. The handle failed in about 25 sticks. Perhaps a bad
bit of wood? So I cut it, cleaned, whittled, sawed, epoxied and
wedged it back in place. The handled failed in about 25 sticks.
Perhaps that was bad wood? New handle from the store. The handled
failed in about 25 sticks. One last time? The handled failed in about 25 sticks.

For independent trials and the handle broke off 4 times. But it sure does
impress people when you stick the hatchet hard enough to shear the
handle off the head.

Combat hatchets need a bit more strength than the nicest framing
hatched will give you.

When you say "framing hatchet" I think that you may be referring to a "rigging axe."
http://hammernet.com/vaughan/pages/products/fromsite/rb.JPG.jpg

I used a really sharp one for a short time as a young apprentice in the early '70s, until I smacked a bouncy stud and it rebounded into my shoulder. :eek:
We tried throwing the rigging axes at a plywood sheeted wall, too; mostly,we'd have to dodge the thing when it bounced back toward us!

Before there were commercially made, well balanced framing hammers available, some guys would cut off the axe blade and weld straight claws onto the head.

command_liner
09-17-2009, 9:37 PM
All the Vaughn wood-handled construction axes are not suitable
for combat. I tried the axe you show, and the lighter drywall
hatchets. They will all break.

Now the roofing hatchets from Estwing look like they might work,
but the balance is bad. I have one and 3 of the 22oz hammers
too. The Estwing short axe might work, but is a bit heavy.

I have a plan to make a few hawks using brazed, hardened,
tempered leaf springs for heads, then modified handles from
asphalt tampers for handles.

Of course if you feel you will never throw a hatchet, all this
does not matter. For whatever reason I happen to be OK
at throwing.

The Romans made well balanced framing hammers a few
thousand years ago. Perhaps the art was lost until recently.

Greg-Dawg
09-18-2009, 8:19 AM
This one is really nice. (http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/cqc-t.htm)

GuyW
09-18-2009, 1:37 PM
We bought a couple of throwing hawks from one of the knife-catalog companies - they've never broken, and were cheap...
.

Suvorov
09-28-2009, 9:26 PM
I just ordered the SOG Fusion since it seems to be a good quality hawk and at $35 quite reasonable. I have also been considering the Pack Axe that Mud Camper has and will try one of them next if I'm not totally impressed with the SOG. I have a few SOG knives/tools and they have held up well so I expect the same out of the hawk.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f32/wyorca/SOG-Fusion-Tactical-Tomahawk-600x51.jpg

I'm planning on keeping it in my truck under the front seat since it would be handy in the event I need to break glass or needed it for other occasions. In the frog, it is hard to tell what it is other than just a stick hanging from the belt and shouldn't attract much attention while backpacking.

Skill with an axe is also something that interests me because of my profession and something I should really spend some time looking into. We carry a crash axe in the cockpit and it can serve for self defense purposes as well (up to this point my only need for it has been to open the landing gear free fall actuator door open). The trick here is that we are in very close confines the the ability to swing the axe without hitting another crew member is a problem.

Maybe we have some axe savvy people here who could help come up with a good style of axe defense in close confines? :confused:

pullnshoot25
09-28-2009, 9:35 PM
I just ordered the SOG Fusion since it seems to be a good quality hawk and at $35 quite reasonable. I have also been considering the Pack Axe that Mud Camper has and will try one of them next if I'm not totally impressed with the SOG. I have a few SOG knives/tools and they have held up well so I expect the same out of the hawk.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f32/wyorca/SOG-Fusion-Tactical-Tomahawk-600x51.jpg

I'm planning on keeping it in my truck under the front seat since it would be handy in the event I need to break glass or needed it for other occasions. In the frog, it is hard to tell what it is other than just a stick hanging from the belt and shouldn't attract much attention while backpacking.

Skill with an axe is also something that interests me because of my profession and something I should really spend some time looking into. We carry a crash axe in the cockpit and it can serve for self defense purposes as well (up to this point my only need for it has been to open the landing gear free fall actuator door open). The trick here is that we are in very close confines the the ability to swing the axe without hitting another crew member is a problem.

Maybe we have some axe savvy people here who could help come up with a good style of axe defense in close confines? :confused:

There are books on tomahawk fighting. It is a uniquely American/Indian thing but I have heard it plays well into kali (I think that is it) and other club-based exercises/martial arts.

Meplat
09-28-2009, 10:12 PM
There was actually once a law, I don't know for sure it is still in effect, but I think it is, that required travelers areas subject to wildfires to carry in their vehicle, an Ax, a shovel, and a bucket. I would not use the term tomahawk, I would call it a fire ax.:rolleyes:



Hey all, considering buying a tomahawk for the emergency earthquake kit. Are there any laws prohibiting 'hawks in a vehicle? What about carrying them, either openly or concealed? I know, kind of random, but your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Meplat
09-28-2009, 10:15 PM
They seem a lot more innocent than a 'hawk. Can be wicked sharp and maybe be a bit more useful for digging.

And burying the evidence.

Meplat
09-28-2009, 10:44 PM
Go to a good hardware store and pick out a handy lightweight hand ax that will do the job. It will be just as effective as a "Tomahawk" and will draw much less scrutiny from LE. The Viking "battleax" is easily duplicated by a Hudsons bay double edged ax, and is a better battle implement than the native American Tomahawk. However the Tomahawk will be perceived as a weapon while the Hudsons Bay Ax will not.

I'm going to revive this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions for some less expensive Tomahawks? I'd like to get one to keep around the house just to say I have a Hawk.

putput
09-29-2009, 3:22 PM
Awesome. Now I own a tomahawk just cause. I found this link usefull for fighting...

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/csstoreonline/article13.pdf

Delta V
09-29-2009, 8:21 PM
So, is this under the random blank spot in the law, like how the Hells Angels can carry ball peen hammers concealed b/c there is no law regulating the carrying of hammers?

Harleys require frequent smacks upside the cylinder head with a ball peen hammer just to get their attention.

Just ask any LEO who, in the course of having pulled them over, has inquired about a ball peen hammer they're carrying...