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geofgibson
04-20-2009, 4:40 PM
I'm curious. I've worked with sheriffs, DEA, Navy, and other LEO/military over the years. Occasionally, I find some who seem to prefer that civilians just not be allowed to keep and bear arms. We all know the cliches about criminals and gun control. My question is, those of you who work with these men and women every day, what do you think is going on in their heads? Do they really believe that us who go out to the range to shoot in CMP matches are any kind of threat? Why don't they see us as the responsible firearms owners who we are?

nobody33
04-20-2009, 5:08 PM
Some are just ignorant... some have ideological problems that go far beyond their views on the 2nd amend. (Read they are liberals).

Every once in a while some left wing idiot thinks they want to be a social worker with a gun and falls through the cracks to get hired.

God I hate those cops. Even more than you.

artthestampede
04-20-2009, 6:15 PM
My firearms instructor in the LAPD academy made it clear to everyone in the class that he believed citizens should be able to carry. He asked who the liberals in the class were and advised them to be in the middle and lean right from then on. :thumbsup:

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-20-2009, 6:24 PM
Some are just ignorant... some have ideological problems that go far beyond their views on the 2nd amend. (Read they are liberals).

Every once in a while some left wing idiot thinks they want to be a social worker with a gun and falls through the cracks to get hired.

God I hate those cops. Even more than you.

Amen.

bill104
04-20-2009, 6:37 PM
Those LEO's won't be saying that, when their life gets saved by a Responsible Gun owner.

MissionMTMan
04-21-2009, 7:15 AM
I figure if everyone has a gun, what kind of criminal will want to pull out a gun on someone? I know I wouldn't because I would be scared of getting shot by a responsible citizen.haha

Eagle Five Zero
04-21-2009, 7:31 AM
The mindset of people is what makes the difference. MOST law enforcement officers are professional and fair. But there are some who adopt the 'Us Versus Them' mindset in which law enforcement professionals are somehow better than the rest of us - and only they should have the right to possess and use firearms.

And yet, the law of the land guarantees our right to keep and bear arms. Unless we keep vigilant, our rights will melt away. When I encounter law enforcement officers in any setting, I always take the time to thank them for their service to our communities and our country -- and I remind them that the majority of citizens are law-abiding people who want to live and raise their families in peace. I also take the opportunity to let them know that I am a CCW permit holder and a firearms instructor that encourages law-abiding citizens to get their CCW and take CQB tactical courses including unarmed combatives to add to their skill set.

Law enforcement by and large support and defend our rights to keep and bear arms. But when they are 'on duty' and on the street, the majority of the time when they encounter someone with a firearm it is rarely a CCW permit holder. That is why we need to be 2A Goodwill Ambassadors - so that when LEOs encounter folks like you and me, they will be positively impressed and hopefully over time we can change the attitude of those few who think civilians should not have the rights we do.

Triad
04-21-2009, 7:54 AM
I have absolutely no problem with responsible gun ownership.

The only gun "ownership" I have a problem with is finding violent parolee's in possession of a firearm.

yzernie
04-21-2009, 8:21 AM
I'm curious. I've worked with sheriffs, DEA, Navy, and other LEO/military over the years. Occasionally, I find some who seem to prefer that civilians just not be allowed to keep and bear arms. We all know the cliches about criminals and gun control. My question is, those of you who work with these men and women every day, what do you think is going on in their heads? Do they really believe that us who go out to the range to shoot in CMP matches are any kind of threat? Why don't they see us as the responsible firearms owners who we are?
I see an ever changing set of priorities and minsets in our younger LEOs. They grew up in an environment where video games and paid TV were priorities for them. They did not grow up in an era where the departments wanted you to be a veteran to be hired as a cop and the hiring requirements were much more strict than they are now.

When I got hired in 1977 the views of society as a whole were very different than they are today and have been in recent years. Most of these kids were brought up to see guns an evil. Now-a-days, the sidearm they carry is nothing more than a necessary evil of their job as an LEO. Please don't get me wrong, we have plenty of good kids working for us who have the right mentality. As with anything else, people will have differing views on any topic.

One important aspect of our job that needs to be mentioned, and EFZ did just that, is the people we usually encounter who are in possession of guns are not your good citizen. Bad guys with guns are scary encounters. This is certainly not offered as an excuse but when we continually come in contact with the less desirable element of our society we sometimes allow our views get skewed. When that happens it takes some old salt like myself to get them back in line!! ;)

I can only speak for my station but I have worked hard to educate these kids in the gun laws and to change some of their mentalities about citizens with guns. My commander and I have received many positive comments from our citizens about the deputies being able to answer their gun related questions. Noone knows everything, especially when it comes to interpreting the California gun laws. We do the best we can to educate the youngsters and we have made a positive impact on our community. ;)

Ron-Solo
04-21-2009, 4:24 PM
Well, for some LEO's they are too busy trying to get the cushy schedule or the promotion to see that honest folks are no danger to us. I guess it's hard for them to see because they have their head so far up their own, or their supervisors ***** that it restricts their vision and cuts off the flow of blood to the brain.

I've worked in some of the toughest areas of LA County and encountered a lot of people with guns over the last 30 years. The majority were honset hard working folks and a couple of times were of great assistance. Of course, I've also encountered a lot of stupid people doing stupid things. That's where common sense comes into play. Some of these kids don't seem to have much, but you can sure tell the difference between a kid who has a degree in some touchy feely subject and a kid who did a tour in the military, regardless if they saw combat, they are much better prepared for the job. Give me a vet any day.

CAL.BAR
04-21-2009, 8:51 PM
The mindset of people is what makes the difference. MOST law enforcement officers are professional and fair. But there are some who adopt the 'Us Versus Them' mindset in which law enforcement professionals are somehow better than the rest of us - and only they should have the right to possess and use firearms.

And yet, the law of the land guarantees our right to keep and bear arms. Unless we keep vigilant, our rights will melt away. When I encounter law enforcement officers in any setting, I always take the time to thank them for their service to our communities and our country -- and I remind them that the majority of citizens are law-abiding people who want to live and raise their families in peace. I also take the opportunity to let them know that I am a CCW permit holder and a firearms instructor that encourages law-abiding citizens to get their CCW and take CQB tactical courses including unarmed combatives to add to their skill set.

Law enforcement by and large support and defend our rights to keep and bear arms. But when they are 'on duty' and on the street, the majority of the time when they encounter someone with a firearm it is rarely a CCW permit holder. That is why we need to be 2A Goodwill Ambassadors - so that when LEOs encounter folks like you and me, they will be positively impressed and hopefully over time we can change the attitude of those few who think civilians should not have the rights we do.

Exactly. All officers, to some extent, have to have the us vs them b/c it is part of the culture and the job. They have to rely on their partner and their team mates. They are trained NOT to rely on "us". they know that the only direction the bullets will be coming from is "us" (Right?) So since they can't always know who the good guys are they do what is natural - if it's not blue, it's not on "your" team.

Officers - tell me I'm wrong! When will any officer believe or trust a "citizen" over his partner, his superior officer or basically any other man or woman wearing the same uniform.

So - if you take that mindset and marry it to the fantasy of removing all guns except those in the hands of "the good guys" you get a wonderful utopia (if you're the ones with the guns) (Right). If all guns were suddenly transformed into ray guns that could not harm any police officer their jobs DO get easier and safer (they have to since you don't see many officers knifed or beaten to death)
So the result is inevitably - us v them, and the idea that if only they have the guns, they will (on some level and in some small way) be safer out there.

gunrun45
04-21-2009, 9:06 PM
First, I will say that I believe in the right for all citizens to carry firearms. I don't think that individuals with previous convictions for certain crimes should be allowed to carry though.

That being said, its dificult for officers to trust a citizen more than a fellow officer. Its kind of like trusting your family member over someone you just met on the street. Actually, its JUST like that. Would you walk up to a stranger on the street and imediately take his word over your wife's, father's, mother's, etc... I think you get my point.

bluestaterebel
04-21-2009, 9:07 PM
Some are just ignorant... some have ideological problems that go far beyond their views on the 2nd amend. (Read they are liberals).

Every once in a while some left wing idiot thinks they want to be a social worker with a gun and falls through the cracks to get hired.

God I hate those cops. Even more than you.

well said. for some reason those types like to promote.

ilbob
04-22-2009, 6:03 AM
I would bet most just don't care one way or the other. Just not a big issue.

They probably don't care what brand of toothpaste I use either.

PatriotnMore
04-22-2009, 6:27 AM
I see an ever changing set of priorities and minsets in our younger LEOs. They grew up in an environment where video games and paid TV were priorities for them. They did not grow up in an era where the departments wanted you to be a veteran to be hired as a cop and the hiring requirements were much more strict than they are now.

When I got hired in 1977 the views of society as a whole were very different than they are today and have been in recent years. Most of these kids were brought up to see guns an evil. Now-a-days, the sidearm they carry is nothing more than a necessary evil of their job as an LEO. Please don't get me wrong, we have plenty of good kids working for us who have the right mentality. As with anything else, people will have differing views on any topic.

One important aspect of our job that needs to be mentioned, and EFZ did just that, is the people we usually encounter who are in possession of guns are not your good citizen. Bad guys with guns are scary encounters. This is certainly not offered as an excuse but when we continually come in contact with the less desirable element of our society we sometimes allow our views get skewed. When that happens it takes some old salt like myself to get them back in line!! ;)

I can only speak for my station but I have worked hard to educate these kids in the gun laws and to change some of their mentalities about citizens with guns. My commander and I have received many positive comments from our citizens about the deputies being able to answer their gun related questions. Noone knows everything, especially when it comes to interpreting the California gun laws. We do the best we can to educate the youngsters and we have made a positive impact on our community. ;)

The kids I know my sons age are fascinated by guns, and somewhat fearful at the same time, if they have not had any trigger time. Part of the problem is the closing of ranges, and lack of places to hunt and shoot outdoors, that are close by. When Fathers stop shooting, and or hunting, there is no positive role model or education. But guys are guys, put most of them in a place where they can shoot, and they're hooked.

The area that concerns me is the hiring process. What if we have departments, and those in command who are looking to hire recruits who fit the departments mentality of anti 2A, over those who are pro 2A? If there is an over abundance of both candidates applying, they could easily choose the one over the other.

jafount
04-22-2009, 11:48 AM
well said. for some reason those types like to promote.

Thats because they can't handle the real world out on the street

ifishinxs
04-22-2009, 12:11 PM
Thats because they can't handle the real world out on the street

That's a HUGE PLUS 1.

I've seen it a hundred times.:thumbsup:

7222 Hawker
05-11-2009, 12:38 AM
I had a truck driver stop behind me on a traffic stop one night and come out of his cab with a pistol. He looked rather shocked when I came out from a shadow and told him to drop that pistol. After he explained that he had stopped to check my welfare because he had not seen me on the first pass, I eased up a little. He was a nice man and a veteran checking up on me. I haven't written a trucker since.

seanorgm@earthlink.net
05-12-2009, 11:23 AM
The lawmen who fall into the 'anti-gun' position usually come from one of two angles: 1) The younger, recently educated people who have been indoctrinated in the statist mentality prevalent in government controlled education as of late, or 2) those with political ambitions.

There is a growing position in the U. S. discounting the Constitution. The Second Amendment is hardly mentioned in public schools these days. The anti-gun faction as a whole presents a view of 'officialness' about gun ownership. Many young people - especially with no other training or instruction - accept this as much as washing one's hands, global warming, the evils of smoking and any of a number of other 'obvious' tenets.

Those with political aspirations know most promotions and further advancement in political life - city, county or state government - depend on being 'acceptable' to their superiors. In California especially (probably in New York, New Jersey, Illinois and Massachusetts as well) the 'acceptable' position is 'reasonable' gun laws. We all know what 'reasonable' means in California.

For the record, I've been a federal lawman for twenty-seven years now. I'm a shooter on several levels; I reload and so forth. I belong to NRA, Second Amendment Foundation and a couple others. Most of my best friends are gun owners (LOL). I would support a law requiring all citizens not disqualified by reason of criminal history or mental instability to own a firearm.

DLaw
05-12-2009, 2:00 PM
I have absolutely no problem with responsible gun ownership.

The only gun "ownership" I have a problem with is finding violent parolee's in possession of a firearm.

This right here

eltee
05-12-2009, 3:50 PM
I think the pool of typical police candidates has changed in recent decades. For years, American society embraced the military, hunting and firearms in general. When I was in High School, we had a marksmanship team with a range under the school (which is now a zero tolerance type school). Military bases flourished and were appreciated by communities. A high percentage of our recruits had military or civilian firearms experience.

Now, there are many recruits whose first exposure to a firearm is in the academy. Growing up they didn't get exposed to guns so they only tolerate them as a job necessity. It is sometimes unbelievable that police personnel actually dislike the fact that they have to use guns. I had a fellow lieutenant who dropped her gunbelt as soon as she got into her office. I've had officers forget to load their guns, or forget to retrieve their guns from the locker after booking someone.

I, therefore, think that some of the anti "citizens with guns" bias stems from those cops' personal disdain for guns in general. Of course, there will always be a percentage of cops who think they should be the only ones with the toys. However, IMHO the majority of rank and file cops who aren't predisposed against guns due to their own issues actually appreciate the 2nd Amendment and do not mind law abiding citizens owning firearms.

Of course, it may be politically incorrect to state any support of civilian ownership of firearms depending on where you work. Some cops, hoping to climb that career ladder, end up joining ranks with the "anti guns for civilians" types in order to gain acceptance. It also seems that the higher in rank someone is, the more politically correct they have to act.

So, I think the majority of "street" cops support ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens. Furthermore, alot of us are impacted by the increasing number of gun laws. For example, an off duty cop has no more access to "assault weapons" for personal use than his civilian neighbor. If I wanted to start shooting a .50 cal, I would not be able to buy one in California if the department didn't see a reason for me to have one for duty use.

My take on it. 30 odd years on the job.

Pryde
05-12-2009, 4:28 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the political arms of most LEO unions will toe the party line for the Democrats. Therefore the official stance that most departments embrace is that of anti-2A.

kalguns
05-12-2009, 4:55 PM
I figure if everyone has a gun, what kind of criminal will want to pull out a gun on someone? I know I wouldn't because I would be scared of getting shot by a responsible citizen.haha

That was the attitude of the LEOs in Idaho at my CCW class. (Not much of a class you watched movies and talked about guns for 2 hours. Then your done quick backround check and your got your CCW.) They want every citizen CCW with in the law.

Midian
05-12-2009, 5:09 PM
I remember as a kid we were taught that the police were the best example of what a citizen should be. Even our reading books at the time (this was mid sixties by the way) illustrated this..the friendly policeman helping the little girl find her kitty, don't talk to strangers boys and girls, etc.

I would like to think they think the same thing about responsible gun owners.

The job probably takes LEO's to some pretty dark places. Constant exposure to that has got to leave a mark. You guys to one hell of a difficult job.

tyrist
05-12-2009, 6:16 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the political arms of most LEO unions will toe the party line for the Democrats. Therefore the official stance that most departments embrace is that of anti-2A.

Department Policy is set by the Chief of Police and the City Council. If you want to know why the "department" is anti 2nd look no further than the politicians who were elected by the populace.

Almost all Officers are Conservatives.

Fire in the Hole
05-12-2009, 7:03 PM
I think the pool of typical police candidates has changed in recent decades. For years, American society embraced the military, hunting and firearms in general. When I was in High School, we had a marksmanship team with a range under the school (which is now a zero tolerance type school). Military bases flourished and were appreciated by communities. A high percentage of our recruits had military or civilian firearms experience.

Now, there are many recruits whose first exposure to a firearm is in the academy. Growing up they didn't get exposed to guns so they only tolerate them as a job necessity. It is sometimes unbelievable that police personnel actually dislike the fact that they have to use guns. I had a fellow lieutenant who dropped her gunbelt as soon as she got into her office. I've had officers forget to load their guns, or forget to retrieve their guns from the locker after booking someone.

I, therefore, think that some of the anti-citizen with guns bias from come cops stems from those cops' personal disdain for guns in general. Of course, there will always be a percentage of cops who think they should be the only ones with the toys. However, IMHO the majority of rank and file cops who aren't predisposed against guns due to their own issues actually appreciate the 2nd Amendment and do not mind law abiding citizens owning firearms.

Of course, it may be politically incorrect to state any support of civilian ownership of firearms depending on where you work. Some cops, hoping to climb that career ladder, end up joining ranks with the "anti guns for civilians" types in order to gain acceptance. It also seems that the higher in rank someone is, the more politically correct they have to act.

So, I think the majority of "street" cops support ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens. Furthermore, alot of us are impacted by the increasing number of gun laws. For example, an off duty cop has no more access to "assault weapons" for personal use than his civilian neighbor. If I wanted to start shooting a .50 cal, I would not be able to buy one in California if the department didn't see a reason for me to have one for duty use.

My take on it. 30 odd years on the job.


I'd have to second your motion. I have 30 yrs. of personal experience as a retired LEO/Dept. Range Master. LE Admins/Mgt. know very little about firearms. Firearm training is the lowest on the training priority. I've always believed that "As the commander goes, so goes his command." It's been a novel and rare occurance to actually have an Lt. and above actually show up for scheduled range training. I have spent thousands of dollars and my own vacation time attending advanced formal training at places like Gunsite, Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, Ayoob, and with Gabriel Suarez. I always shot in the Police Olympics. I always had my certificates placed into my personnel file. All this advanced firearm training kind of made my supervisors a bit nervous, even suspicious at times. "What are you trying to do, start your own one-man SWAT Team?" was a common question. I received little if any praise or accolades for my devotion to training. When I'd requsition new ammo, the Sgt. whoever it was, would usually comment, "More ammo, what did you do with the shipment you got 6 months ago?" Now if I was a computer or IT genius, or knew how to write a grant proposal, I'd be glorified.

Whenever I offered to put together a class on firearm training, weapon laws, CCW laws, etc. that went beyond the minimal department time and budget alotment, I'd always get shot down. Oh well, rant off.

SoCalDep
05-12-2009, 7:18 PM
I'm pro-gun, and that's not a law enforcement term. Most of my co-workers are as well. In fact, if there are any who aren't, they must be too intimidated to talk about it.

I sold my Lt. an OLL so he could build a bullet button rifle, I have a U-15 stocked OLL carbine. One of the routine questions we get is what people should do to protect themselves..."Buy a gun" is a common response.

I've responded to a couple self defense shootings involving civilians. One wasn't arrested (hit shooting) and the other was simply written as the attempted burglary on his house. No hit, no paper for him.

I like where I work.

Fire in the Hole
05-12-2009, 7:26 PM
I'm pro-gun, and that's not a law enforcement term. Most of my co-workers are as well. In fact, if there are any who aren't, they must be too intimidated to talk about it.

I sold my Lt. an OLL so he could build a bullet button rifle, I have a U-15 stocked OLL carbine. One of the routine questions we get is what people should do to protect themselves..."Buy a gun" is a common response. I've responded to a couple self defense shootings involving civilians. One wasn't arrested (hit shooting) and the other was simply written as the attempted burglary on his house. No hit, no paper for him.

I like where I work.


This brings up a question I have for other LEO's. The common answer of "Buy a gun, and know how to use it." Use to be a standard pat answer given by LEO's when asked by the public, especially a civic group of how to best defend themselves in their homes. My question is this: Have any LEO's ever been ordered or discouraged by their superiors from giving such gun advice?

Pryde
05-12-2009, 8:34 PM
Department Policy is set by the Chief of Police and the City Council. If you want to know why the "department" is anti 2nd look no further than the politicians who were elected by the populace.

Almost all Officers are Conservatives.

I would beg to differ on the second remark.

At the risk of sounding racist, I find that most white officers are conservative but the vast majority of black officers out there in SoCal LEO agencies are die hard liberals.

Usually when I hear another officer talking down about gun ownership, its an African American.

TheBundo
05-12-2009, 11:00 PM
I've responded to a couple self defense shootings involving civilians. One wasn't arrested (hit shooting) and the other was simply written as the attempted burglary on his house. No hit, no paper for him.

What does "hit shooting" mean, and how does that relate to whether they were arrested? I'm not familiar with the term, I guess. Were either of the 2 arrested?

SoCalDep
05-14-2009, 6:55 PM
Hit shooting means that the bad guy got hit by a bullet. Justified or not, if someone gets hit by a bullet, there's gonna be paperwork. If said bad-guy dies, there will be a goat-load of paperwork.

In "gun-guy" type circles, it's commonly stated that if you use a firearm in self defense, no matter how justified, you're going to be arrested. While I'd always consider that a possibility, I think it's not always that bad.

I would recommend having a second gun in case they take the first as evidence. I'm a cop and I have a gun/rig to replace my (personally owned) duty and off-duty guns in the event they are taken as evidence.

BigDogatPlay
05-14-2009, 7:33 PM
Most of the avowed anti-firearm LEO's I've known were either command staff or were on the career track to be command staff. When you are on that track, it's all about where the political wind blows from.

The very few street cops who were avowed anti-firearm typically had off plumb views across a variety of issues.

solanoshooter
05-20-2009, 3:48 PM
I have absolutely no problem with responsible gun ownership.

The only gun "ownership" I have a problem with is finding violent parolee's in possession of a firearm.

Agreed. In my experience the vast majority of LEOs don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership. In fact, to my knowledge I haven't met one that does. I'm sure that they are out there but I honestly think they are very few and far between.

SVT-40
05-20-2009, 8:55 PM
I think many current LEO's do not even think about firearms "issues". Most of this current generation are to busy with other personal issues or have taken the job to support the family. There are fewer and fewer young people who truly strive to be cops now days.

many cops simply looks at firearms as tools. Nothing else. It's a shame.

My son shot his first machine gun at age ten. He was taught the proper safe handling and use at an early age. He now is a active collector and shooter. Didn't want to be a cop... airplanes were his calling now he's an airline pilot. I'm happy with his decision. With the pressure cops work under now I'm happy he chose another line of work.

Suvorov
05-21-2009, 4:56 PM
My son shot his first machine gun at age ten. He was taught the proper safe handling and use at an early age. He now is a active collector and shooter. Didn't want to be a cop... airplanes were his calling now he's an airline pilot. I'm happy with his decision. With the pressure cops work under now I'm happy he chose another line of work.

He chose the one job that gets even less respect than a cop :(

Is he an FFDO?

glockwise2000
05-25-2009, 6:37 AM
He chose the one job that gets even less respect than a cop :(

Is he an FFDO?

What's an FFDO?

CaliTheKid
05-25-2009, 8:41 AM
Federal Flight Deck Officer.

SVT-40
05-25-2009, 7:53 PM
No, not yet. He just started with a small commuter. Possibly will go through the training in the future. He's happy just to be flying!!

Ron-Solo
05-25-2009, 8:37 PM
I would beg to differ on the second remark.

At the risk of sounding racist, I find that most white officers are conservative but the vast majority of black officers out there in SoCal LEO agencies are die hard liberals.

Usually when I hear another officer talking down about gun ownership, its an African American.

A lot of our African American brother officers came from neighborhoods where gun violence is common. You have to expect some of them will be down on guns. Many of them are great cops. They have a sense of honor and good common sense.

I work with some who love to go shooting, but they grew up in middle class families.

You have to look at where people grew up, not their race to get a better handle on their views toward guns.

cousinkix1953
05-25-2009, 10:34 PM
The mindset of people is what makes the difference. MOST law enforcement officers are professional and fair. But there are some who adopt the 'Us Versus Them' mindset in which law enforcement professionals are somehow better than the rest of us - and only they should have the right to possess and use firearms.
These are the minority of fascists in the group and should be the first ones to be disarmed by gun control legislation. An arrogant "us vs. them" mentality is what leads to police brutality, harassment and outraged citizens...

retired
05-26-2009, 10:52 AM
This brings up a question I have for other LEO's. The common answer of "Buy a gun, and know how to use it." Use to be a standard pat answer given by LEO's when asked by the public, especially a civic group of how to best defend themselves in their homes. My question is this: Have any LEO's ever been ordered or discouraged by their superiors from giving such gun advice?


I spent 17yrs. in patrol (1980-97), tho with time off for injuries, it was only about 15. I would have to answer no to your question. Furthermore, I never once heard it brought up at any briefing. I left patrol in 1997 and do not know if that changed. I left the job in 2003, so who knows what goes on now.

CessnaDriver
05-26-2009, 11:29 AM
My cop buddy definately thinks law abiding citizens should be allowed to own AND carry. And should it come to it, he said he will REFUSE orders to confiscate weapons if it violates the 2nd amdendment.


I suspect some LEOs who say contrary, may be considering future career options and elected office.

Ishoot
05-26-2009, 1:04 PM
I have three friends with varying levels of time served as law enforcement (all in the bay area) and until their actual academy, not one of them had any significant range/hunting time. Is that the majority of new officers in the bay area or just coincidence? Seems to me that if a cop has had very little interaction with gunowners that are not criminals, then they will have a skewed perspective of gun ownership.