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View Full Version : Having ammo shipped to CA. Need ref to law


kajvid
04-16-2009, 7:55 PM
So, I buy some ammo from a GB guy. No problem when he hears that I live in Oakland, CA. He has nothing about no CA sales in his post.

Now, he gets my MO and is told by "someone" that there is "No ammo to Oakland, CA unless they have a FFL".

I am trying to explain the truth of the law. He's asked for me to fill him in on what's what.

Where is there a reference to show him that it is OK? I looked at the DOJ site.

Any help?

Thanks!

Kajvid

lomalinda
04-16-2009, 8:14 PM
He needs to refund you immediately. Hopefully you printed the ad on which you were bidding, but either way, he's not upholding his end of the bargain.

If it gets nasty get the GB people involved. He'll probably give the money back without much hassle.

bwiese
04-16-2009, 8:22 PM
Where is there a reference to show him that it is OK? I looked at the DOJ site.

Any help?
Thanks!
Kajvid

You really can't prove a negative... but since nothing contravening is findable, the old precept "What's not prohibited must be permitted" is indeed operational.

Librarian
04-16-2009, 9:40 PM
So, I buy some ammo from a GB guy. No problem when he hears that I live in Oakland, CA. He has nothing about no CA sales in his post.

Now, he gets my MO and is told by "someone" that there is "No ammo to Oakland, CA unless they have a FFL".

I am trying to explain the truth of the law. He's asked for me to fill him in on what's what.

Where is there a reference to show him that it is OK? I looked at the DOJ site.

Any help?

Thanks!

Kajvid

It wouldn't be DOJ, it would be City of Oakland, the Municipal Code.

Those are on line here - http://municipalcodes.lexisnexis.com/codes/oakland/

Oakland does have an entry for ammunition: 9.20.010 Title.
This chapter shall be known as the ammunition sales registration ordinance. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.01)

9.20.020 Findings and purpose.
The City Council finds that the state of California has not preempted the enactment of a municipal ordinance requiring the registration of ammunition sales in Oakland, and further finds that the availability of such ammunition sales records can aid the police department in investigations of major crimes involving the use of firearms. The intent of the City Council in enacting the ordinance codified in this chapter is to implement a requirement that ammunition vendors within the city record and maintain records with respect to each individual purchase of ammunition, so that the purchaser can be traced in the event the ammunition were used in the commission of criminal activity. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.02)

9.20.030 Definitions.
As used in this chapter: “Ammunition” means a projectile designated to be expelled by force of an explosion, and intended for use in any firearm, including pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns.
“Vendor” means any individual, person, gun dealer, store, firm or corporation selling ammunition within the city of Oakland. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.03)

9.20.040 Record of ammunition sales.
Every vendor who sells ammunition in the city shall maintain a record of ammunition sales as prescribed by this chapter. The record shall be maintained on the vendor’s premises, on forms supplied by, or approved by, the Oakland Police Department (OPD). An ammunition purchaser must provide to the vendor and the vendor shall record the following information:
A. The date of the transaction;
B. The purchaser’s name, address and date of birth;
C. The purchaser’s valid driver’s license number or other identification number from a valid photographic I.D. such as a passport;
D. The brand of ammunition purchased;
E. The type and amount of ammunition purchased; and
F. The purchaser’s signature and vendor’s initials.
The information required to be recorded shall be maintained in chronological order by date of sale of the ammunition and shall be retained on the business premises of the vendor for a period not less than two years following the date of the recorded sale of the ammunition.
Oakland police officers may enter a vendor’s premises during regular business hours for the purpose of examining, inspecting or copying records required by this chapter. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.04)

9.20.050 Violation--Penalty.
It is unlawful for any vendor engaged in the retail sale of ammunition in Oakland to knowingly make a false entry in, or fail to make appropriate entry, or fail to properly maintain any such record, or refuse to immediately provide the ammunition sales log for inspection to a police officer upon request.
Violation of any provision of this chapter shall be a misdemeanor, subject to fines and penalties as provided by law. Additionally, failure to abide by the requirements of this chapter shall be grounds for the revocation of a vendor’s firearms dealer license, pursuant to Chapter 5.26 of this code. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.05)

9.20.060 Severability.
This chapter shall be enforced to the full extent of the authority of the city. If any section, subsection, paragraph, sentence or word of this chapter is deemed to be invalid or beyond the authority of the city, either on its face or as applied, the remaining sections, subsection, paragraphs, sentences, or words of this chapter shall remain in full force and effect, and to that end the provisions of this shall be deemed severable. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.06)


The key would be this: “Vendor” means any individual, person, gun dealer, store, firm or corporation selling ammunition within the city of Oakland

Since the stated penalty includes Additionally, failure to abide by the requirements of this chapter shall be grounds for the revocation of a vendor’s firearms dealer license, pursuant to Chapter 5.26 of this code. (Ord. 11848 § 1 (part), 1995; prior code § 2-12.05)it seems clear that this applies only to businesses licensed by the City of Oakland.

If your seller isn't so licensed, as I am sure he's not, I suggest this law does not apply to him. (I'm sure he is not so licensed because there are NO licensed gun dealers in the City of Oakland, and have not been for about 15 years.)

kajvid
04-17-2009, 5:23 AM
Thank you, Librarian. Exactly what I was looking for.

ZRX61
04-17-2009, 7:31 AM
The City laws stated above apply to "selling" ammo in Oakland.. doesn't say anything about "buying" ammo in Oakland when the seller isn't actually in Oakland.... ;)

fairfaxjim
04-17-2009, 9:31 AM
Related question:
Marin County has an ammo registration requirement contained in it's firearms dealer licensing ordinance:

6.58.075 Record of Ammunition Sales.

Every holder of a business license to sell ammunition shall maintain records pertaining to ammunition sales prescribed by this Chapter on the licensed premises and in the manner prescribed herein. The record shall show:

(A) The date of the transaction;

(B) The purchaser's name, address and date of birth;

(C) The purchaser's driver's license number or other identification and State where issued;

(D) The brand of ammunition purchased;

(E) The type and amount of ammunition purchased; and

(F) The purchaser's signature; and

(G) The purchaser’s thumbprint;

(H) Log of Ammunition Sales.

The information required by this subsection 6.58.075(H) shall be completed in the logbook at the time of the purchase. Such information shall be recorded in the following format:

AMMUNITION SALES REGISTRATION LOG

STORE:

Date , Name, Address, Date of Birth, License/ID & State, Ammunition Brand, ammunition Type & Amount, Purchaser Signature

(1) The record shall be maintained in chronological order by date of sale of the ammunition, and shall be retained on the licensed premises of the business licensee for a period of two (2) years following the date of the purchase of the ammunition.

(2) At the direction of the Sheriff or his or her designee, deputy sheriffs may enter the premises of any licensed vendor of ammunition during regular business hours for the purpose of examining or inspecting any record required by this Chapter.

Exception.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to the sale of firearm ammunition by a firing range licensed to do business in the County when the ammunition so purchased is expended on the premises of the range and not removed for use outside the range premises.

Is this County ordinance enforceable in incorporated citites within Marin County? I say not, as I have purchased ammunition in the few cities that it is available (San Rafael, Corte Madera, Novato) and have never encountered any registration.

My reason for asking is that those ammunition vendors that refuse to ship to Marin County (among others) are basing their decision on the countie the customer is located in. A lot of people are located in cities (more than in the county jurisdiction), and are not subject to this restriction.

Librarian
04-17-2009, 11:50 AM
Related question:
Marin County has an ammo registration requirement contained in it's firearms dealer licensing ordinance:



Is this County ordinance enforceable in incorporated citites within Marin County? I say not, as I have purchased ammunition in the few cities that it is available (San Rafael, Corte Madera, Novato) and have never encountered any registration.

My reason for asking is that those ammunition vendors that refuse to ship to Marin County (among others) are basing their decision on the countie the customer is located in. A lot of people are located in cities (more than in the county jurisdiction), and are not subject to this restriction.

I'm pretty sure the County jurisdiction stops at the city boundaries for most things (and I bet the city councils and mayors would argue the same). Contra Costa has a similar ordinance, and no city where I've bought ammo tries to enforce that. Generally speaking, Government Code (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/gov.html) refers to counties doing things in the unincorporated areas of a county, but I'm not able to find anything like a clear statement of 'county authority here, city authority there'.

Trying to convince an out-of-state vendor that cities within counties are not subordinate to the counties is another matter, especially with many being so gun-shy (pun intended).

fairfaxjim
04-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Trying to convince an out-of-state vendor that cities within counties are not subordinate to the counties is another matter, especially with many being so gun-shy (pun intended).

That's my focus on this one - the laws that these vendors are citing (or that their legal eagles are reading) don't even apply to most of the residents of a particular county here in the Bay Area and in SoCal.

If anyone has any definitive cite that makes it clear that county ordinances are not binding on incorporated cities, I would love to see it. Some (but not many that I have seen) county ordinances actuallly have County of XXX included in the definitions section of the enacted ordinance. Unfortunately the Marin Co. ammo one does not.

Librarian
04-17-2009, 5:29 PM
That's my focus on this one - the laws that these vendors are citing (or that their legal eagles are reading) don't even apply to most of the residents of a particular county here in the Bay Area and in SoCal.

If anyone has any definitive cite that makes it clear that county ordinances are not binding on incorporated cities, I would love to see it. Some (but not many that I have seen) county ordinances actuallly have County of XXX included in the definitions section of the enacted ordinance. Unfortunately the Marin Co. ammo one does not.

Marin County code says
1.04.110 Territorial limitation.
This code shall refer only to the omission or commission of acts within the unincorporated limits of the county of Marin and such other territory over which the county has jurisdiction or control by virtue of the constitution, or any law, or by reason of ownership or control of property. (Ord. 1416 § 2 (part), 1965)
Generally speaking, 'incorporation' in this context is the process of forming a city, so cities are excluded.

fairfaxjim
04-17-2009, 5:45 PM
Marin County code says
1.04.110 Territorial limitation.
This code shall refer only to the omission or commission of acts within the unincorporated limits of the county of Marin and such other territory over which the county has jurisdiction or control by virtue of the constitution, or any law, or by reason of ownership or control of property. (Ord. 1416 § 2 (part), 1965)

Generally speaking, 'incorporation' in this context is the process of forming a city, so cities are excluded.

That's what I was looking for, thanks. That is the adoption section of the county code, and it specifically says the code is ony for the unincorporated limits of the county. Barring any municipal restrictions or requirements for signatures, etc., there is no ammo log required in those municipalities located in Marin County.

Anybody got an email address for Sportsman's Guide or Cheaper than Dirt's legal departments.

cousinkix1953
04-18-2009, 7:57 AM
It's the same story with fireworks. Santa Cruz county bans the sale of snakes and sparklers; but the antis must fight this battle every year in the city of Watsonville. The stands were shut down in 2008 because of those big fires in the area; but will be open this year unless there is another fire disasster.

So lots of people buy fireworks in Watsonville. There are no stands in Capitola; but these are not illegal on private property in that city either. Meanwhile, those areas which practice total prohibition, have the biggest problems with illegal firecrackers, M-80s and even larger destructive devices that would interest the BATFE.

It' a big joke just listening to my police scanner on the 4th of July. Not many people get caught breaking an unenforceable law. Corrupt politicians didn't even fire a half dozen deputies, who were caught lighting illegal devices in the sheriff's own parking garage a few years ago...