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View Full Version : Need Opinion: New item for a FEATURELESS build


bobfried
04-15-2009, 3:04 PM
I'm doing another featureless build and would like some opinion as to what people think. Note that I am asking for opinion, not legal advice, that is unless someone happens to qualify in that arena.

Down to the topic. I have always liked a VFG but have now started to use it more as a hand stop than anything so I thought what would a hand stop be considered as on a featureless build? Basically it's just something to index my hand against so that I am able to have a consistent hold on the rifle. I was going to experiment on a cheap Ergo VFG but unfortunately it was sold out so I bit the bullet and chopped down a TD Stubby VFG. Here is the result:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3723/img1022igp.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7265/img1023z.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5900/img1024sqf.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7613/img1026zjz.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/88/img1027qva.jpg

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1756/img1028ydj.jpg

Note on the above series of images I have shaved down the rear of the hand stop to be almost flush with the rail, there is nothing for the web of the hand to get caught on. You cannot grab this with your hand, apply any pressure and be able to hold on to it. It's easier to use grab on the front sling mount than it is on this thing.

Now the question I pose the forum at large is:

In YOUR OPINION, can this be construed as a VFG and therefore illegal on a featureless build?

technique
04-15-2009, 3:07 PM
wHAT are you going to pass it off as??? Cool idea, I can visualize how it is used.

aplinker
04-15-2009, 3:09 PM
no, not a VFG. No way to grasp it pistol style.

bobfried
04-15-2009, 3:09 PM
wHAT are you going to pass it off as??? Cool idea, I can visualize how it is used.

Exactly what it is and can only be used as: a HAND STOP.

here are pictures of it in action, this is how I hold onto the front of my rifle and how this is to be used:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6871/img1029.jpg

technique
04-15-2009, 3:09 PM
So here is what I would do...I would put a swivel sling stud on it and call it a quick detach sling mount..:thumbsup:

Jicko
04-15-2009, 3:09 PM
In YOUR OPINION, can this be construed as a VFG and therefore illegal on a featureless build?

IMO, that would be a VFG.... since i can wrap my index finger and thumb around it....

If you definitely need a hand reference.... i would use a rail mounted sling mount....

TZL
04-15-2009, 3:10 PM
I think the fact that its detachable and not functioning as something else would make it difficult to pass as not a VFG

If it was a flashlight mount or something else, that would be ok

or if it was molded into some plastic furinture, it could just be some extra ugly "styling" feature....

bobfried
04-15-2009, 3:24 PM
IMO, that would be a VFG.... since i can wrap my index finger and thumb around it....

If you definitely need a hand reference.... i would use a rail mounted sling mount....

This is where I need opinions as you raise the point I was hoping to address. You could also wrap your index finger and thumb around a sling mount, would that make it a VFG?

Note that what it WAS does not matter, what it is now is what I am asking. Ignore everything you know about VFG since this is not going to be used nor designed as a VFG. How would this be more legal or illegal than say a sling mount, a bipod mount, a piece of plywood glued to the bottom rail?

That is the point I wish to have more opinions on. Again it does not matter that you can wrap your index and thumb around it, since you can wrap your index and thumb around many items including the front sling mount present on most rifles.

Where is the threshold that makes something a VFG versus a hand stop?

I think the fact that its detachable and not functioning as something else would make it difficult to pass as not a VFG

If it was a flashlight mount or something else, that would be ok

or if it was molded into some plastic furinture, it could just be some extra ugly "styling" feature....

Same line of thought here. Ignore what it was since it does not matter. The fact that it is detachable does not factor into the equation IMO. What can it be used as is where I need more input. Can you use that as a VFG? As in would you be able to grab it securely and where does that threshold begin where a VERTICAL FORE GRIP is considered as such and when is it something else?

I will point ot the U15 and Monster Man Grip, both of which can only be used a certain way, Now the real litmus test is where would this fall?

Note that this is a QD hand stop and nothing more. It was designed and can only be used as such. Now what would it be considered is entirely another matter and where I need more input.

Jicko
04-15-2009, 3:31 PM
Where is the threshold that makes something a VFG versus a hand stop?

I guess, you would never know...

Personally, I would NOT use that...... on my featureless build....

lawaia
04-15-2009, 3:41 PM
A grip to me is something you can wrap your hand around. Your "hand stop" doesn't look like something that would be considered a "grip". You sure couldn't wrap your hand around it. I would also imagine that if you produced and marketed it for sale as a "hand stop", that would lend credence to the fact that it is not a "grip". (If any of that makes sense.:rolleyes:)

Anyway, I think it's a great idea. I would like to have one.:thumbsup:

lasereye
04-15-2009, 3:54 PM
I guess, you would never know...

Personally, I would NOT use that...... on my featureless build....

I agree with Jicko. Not on my featureless. To many unknowns especially with a home made part.I like your line of thinking though.

Monoz
04-15-2009, 3:59 PM
+1 for creativity and practicality. I have no idea what it would be "considered" as...

tgriffin
04-15-2009, 4:23 PM
Its gray, especially since it was made from a VFG. I wouldn't hang my self over the edge for that being open to interpretation. The suggestion regarding a QD sling point has merit.

frigginchi
04-15-2009, 4:37 PM
So if you put a VFG on the side is it a VFG any more?

It only mentions VFG on shotguns.


I think the wording is "forward pistol grip" in the law pertaining to rifles. So can you grab it like a pistol?

TZL
04-15-2009, 6:13 PM
The picture helps, I was thinking of it going the other way, as something you would push your hand out against, since I generally push out against my VFG, not pull in on it.....

Exactly what it is and can only be used as: a HAND STOP.

here are pictures of it in action, this is how I hold onto the front of my rifle and how this is to be used:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6871/img1029.jpg

technique
04-15-2009, 6:19 PM
, since I generally push out against my VFG, not pull in on it.....

hows that work?

slappomatt
04-15-2009, 6:24 PM
http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=797

now that is a rail mounted hand stop. Although it could be concidered a VFG as well if you think like an ANTI. You could possibly modify one of those. Its a shame you had to hack up a $80.00 VFG. But if it does what you want then its all good.

bobfried
04-15-2009, 7:06 PM
So if you put a VFG on the side is it a VFG any more?

It only mentions VFG on shotguns.


I think the wording is "forward pistol grip" in the law pertaining to rifles. So can you grab it like a pistol?

You sir is absolutely right:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

I have not looked at it closely bu tthe law specifically states a forward pistol grip. And a pistol grip is defined as something that ca be grabbed like a "pistol" grip.

And to answer your question, NO you cannot grab it like a pistol grip, in no way possible can you grab it like a pistol grip. Well everything seems to check out kosher to me, but that is of course MY OPINION. What I have created is NOT a forward pistol grip since in no way can you grasp it like a pistol grip. You could pinch your finger together and cradle it but than you can do the same thing on a bare HG so that would not be relevant. The web of the hand can in no way contact the hand stop to form any sort of hold.

I did a simple test, when I attempt to pick up the rifle with the hand stop I was not able to do so with a pistol style grip.

http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=797

now that is a rail mounted hand stop. Although it could be concidered a VFG as well if you think like an ANTI. You could possibly modify one of those. Its a shame you had to hack up a $80.00 VFG. But if it does what you want then its all good.

I'm going to say that the hand stopped you show would be easily considered a pistol grip since you can very easily grab it as such.Once you modify it to be something like I have where a pistol grip style is not possible than it's essentially the same thing.

Some of you seem to get hung up on the fact that it was made out of a VFG, that fact does not matter since there is no way can it be converted BACK to a VFG, nor does it function or can be used like a VFG. This should not be a sticking point since I could have made this out of clay for all intensive purpose and it would not matter legally any which way. Mostly because California has no constructive possession law, but more importantly the resultant part is no way similar to or comparable to the original part. Think of it as our OLL, if the above logic applies than no matter what we do they would be considered assault weapon.

dchang0
04-15-2009, 7:42 PM
Man, this totally rocks! I would absolutely use one of these on a featureless build. Hell, I'd use it on my BB build too, because I don't need the full stubby pistol grip I currently have.

If I was ever charged, I'd ask the prosecuting attorney to grip the nub, AND then I'd ask him/her to hold the rifle ONE HANDED using that alleged "pistol grip." It should be obvious to even a hostile judge that no human hand could establish a "pistol-style grip" on it--emphasis on the word "grip."

Rukus
04-15-2009, 7:50 PM
I posed a similar question in regards to an AOW, check the thread here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=157278

Seems it would have to meet seperate State and Fed laws....

bobfried
04-15-2009, 7:54 PM
I posed a similar question in regards to an AOW, check the thread here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=157278

Seems it would have to meet seperate State and Fed laws....

Not for this, federal law does not limit VFG on anything like an OLL configured legally in California. This is strictly a California thing since the only law it would be in violation of pertains only to the state and citizens of California.

According to some of the response in your thread I'd say this is not a forward pistol grip because it is not a protrusion in front of the trigger guard that can be grasped and control the rifle. That was supposed to be some sort of underground California legislation, but even if that stood up in court it would just reinforces the fact that you cannot grasp this thing and use it by itself to control the weapon.

Seesm
04-15-2009, 10:20 PM
I say No it is not a Forward pistol grip but a anti who wants to beat up on a legal gun owner would go after you for LESS to TRY to get you in trouble or a LEO who does not know the laws.

I know a few LEOS who have no clue on gun laws and ask ME questions and other gun buddies. It is scary and nuts IMHO anyway.

To go back to your finger catch there appears to be too much grey doubt area but I think your have, a neat idea... The sling attachment would help you in court if need be.

Someone has to push the envelope persay... I think your idea is a very neat idea in fact.

Good going!!