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View Full Version : What about piggybacking the Pirate hijackings with right to carry?


GMONEY
04-15-2009, 5:57 AM
Seems logical although I am no political analyst... International Maritime law says boats can't have guns to defend themselves. I think Right to Carry fits in the same space and the Dems would have to agree with the logic on this.

Fjold
04-15-2009, 7:01 AM
International Maritime Law does not say that you can't have guns to defend yourself.

lioneaglegriffin
04-15-2009, 8:32 AM
i believe its a law Somolia has right?

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 9:20 AM
International Maritime Law does not say that you can't have guns to defend yourself.

Hmm they (MSM) keep saying that everywhere...

berto
04-15-2009, 9:27 AM
Hmm they (MSM) keep saying that everywhere...


Once in port the host nation's laws apply. Between differing laws and insurance and liability issues most ships go unarmed.

lioneaglegriffin
04-15-2009, 9:44 AM
Once in port the host nation's laws apply. Between differing laws and insurance and liability issues most ships go unarmed.

as a result they used barbed wire and flares as if that will help against AK-47/74's and RPG's.

DDT
04-15-2009, 9:53 AM
Many sailors in smaller cruising yachts carry firearms onboard. Most countries (AFAIK) require you to keep your firearms locked and onboard when in port. Many also do ammo counts in and out. You get in deep if you bring less out than you bring in. Some nations also impound your firearms while in their waters.

SVT_Fox
04-15-2009, 9:54 AM
ron paul was talking about a 200 year old law that allows crews to engage in war activity with threats, it will keep our military in other parts of the world where they are needed more, and gives the crew the ability to collect evil black rifles@!!!!!


but the "law" needs to be discussed in congress before it is active or something... good luck with the *****s in charge now

stillnotbob
04-15-2009, 11:59 AM
My Brother is a Merchant Seaman and he has told me that the shipping companies will not allow firearms on the ships because of insurance issues. Of course this only applies to US flagged vessels. He is not sure what foreign flagged ships can do.

He works for the same shipping company as the hijack ship.

The reason that this crew was not captured was that the previous crew created a safe room by welding steel over the port holes to seal them. The door could be locked and unlocked from the inside only. Without the crew the hijackers cannot get the ship to port. I guess some how it worked out for the crew this time.

Aldemar
04-15-2009, 12:13 PM
Quote:

The reason that this crew was not captured was that the previous crew created a safe room by welding steel over the port holes to seal them. The door could be locked and unlocked from the inside only. Without the crew the hijackers cannot get the ship to port. I guess some how it worked out for the crew this time.[/QUOTE]

Looks like we may have to reinforce vital areas like commercial aircraft now do. It sure would be nice to have a couple a "Q-Ships" over there though. Let the pirates worry about who they are approaching.

CCWFacts
04-15-2009, 12:20 PM
International Maritime Law does not say that you can't have guns to defend yourself.

Yeah but guns are absolutely banned in most ports around the world, including in Africa. These ships need to stop in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Dubai, etc, where guns are absolutely banned with incredibly harsh penalties. That's why none of these ships can be armed.

Oh and if the ship is US-flagged, then US gun laws are in force, so no MGs or other weapons you might want.

The whole piracy problem is absurd. You have little boats with outboard motors that are able to stop and commandeer huge ships with massive, thick steel hulls, only because these ships don't have even simple light weapons. Give every ship there some M60s and AR-15s, and give some crew members enough training to use them, and there would be zero piracy within a week.

yellowfin
04-15-2009, 12:26 PM
Yeah but guns are absolutely banned in most ports around the world, including in Africa. These ships need to stop in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Dubai, etc, where guns are absolutely banned with incredibly harsh penalties. That's why none of these ships can be armed.

Simple work around: have a dingy and a couple of guys to have the guns off the ship while it's in port. When done loading/offloading, retrieve and go about business as usual.

CCWFacts
04-15-2009, 12:33 PM
Simple work around: have a dingy and a couple of guys to have the guns off the ship while it's in port. When done loading/offloading, retrieve and go about business as usual.

Yeah it sounds like a good idea but it's not safe, practical or comfortable for a dinghy to spend the night outside of a harbor, probably outside the country's territorial waters (something like 10 miles?). It's one thing to be on a big ship with "armor" (a thick steel hull). It's another thing to be a few guys on a dinghy floating off the coast, loaded with guns.

Basically if they want to solve this problem they need to change maritime law so that signatory countries can't enforce their gun laws on ships in a harbor. But the maritime regulators are all statist bureaucrats who think that disarming merchant ships will create a magical force-field of love and good vibrations and joy around them, and that is all you need to do to keep pirates away.

Basically the costs of piracy are acceptable to the groups that could have the power to force these third world countries to allow armed ships.

This whole situation is funny because ships have been armed to protect themselves against piracy from the dawn of commercial shipping until probably just after WWII. Something is wrong with our society.

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 12:40 PM
I vote they install 50 cal's on the deck... If they get close fire some warning shots then light em up!

Maestro Pistolero
04-15-2009, 2:23 PM
I think these pirates would make excellent target practice for our military. As soon as the pirates begin an staging an attack, any fighter jet within 500 miles could be there in 15 to 30 minutes. SEE 'YA :eek:

AJAX22
04-15-2009, 2:27 PM
Yet another reason why we need more letters of Mark and Reprisal issued...

Most of our international/drug smugling/terrorist issues could be easily handled by private enterprise as a for proffit venture.

JDay
04-15-2009, 4:18 PM
Without the crew the hijackers cannot get the ship to port. I guess some how it worked out for the crew this time.

With the crew locked in the engine room the pirates can't start the engines.

JDay
04-15-2009, 4:21 PM
Looks like we may have to reinforce vital areas like commercial aircraft now do. It sure would be nice to have a couple a "Q-Ships" over there though. Let the pirates worry about who they are approaching.

Thats one of the things the TWIC card is supposed to be for, access to secure areas of a ship. The problem is that most ships do not have the card readers yet so anyone can gain access to the bridge. I say we pass a law requiring all US Flagged ships that travel in international waters to have an armory and security detail and to train/drill accordingly.

JDay
04-15-2009, 4:23 PM
The whole piracy problem is absurd. You have little boats with outboard motors that are able to stop and commandeer huge ships with massive, thick steel hulls, only because these ships don't have even simple light weapons.

The reason the pirates use these small boats is because they travel much faster then any ship. They are able to come up along side and board the ship while it is underway.

CCWFacts
04-15-2009, 4:38 PM
The reason the pirates use these small boats is because they travel much faster then any ship. They are able to come up along side and board the ship while it is underway.

Right, certainly, these small boats can be launched from a beach or from a "mother ship", and they are faster than a cargo ship and they can sneak up on it.

My point is, these tiny boats could be sunk within seconds if the ship had any weapons at all. 30 rounds from an AR-15 and the attacking boat would be in deep trouble. Whereas the defending ships are made of thick steel which bullets can't penetrate. It would be suicide for these pirates to try to attack ships if the ships had any kind of weapons.

50 BMG would sink or damage any type of boat pirates could conceivably have access to.

xzw151
04-15-2009, 5:03 PM
They can afford bigger guns than we can, and call me a coward if you want but I would much rather lock myself in the engine room and hope for the best than fight back against RPGs. If the violence is escalated then there will just be a lot of dead merchant sailors which to me is unacceptable. Seems to me that many people have forgotten that there is NOTHING onboard a merchant ship worth dying for.

MontClaire
04-15-2009, 5:08 PM
out in international waters you can have a machine gun and noone can punish you for that, unless you meet a pirate with one. you don't need any rights. it's noones jurisdiction.

7x57
04-15-2009, 10:49 PM
My Brother is a Merchant Seaman and he has told me that the shipping companies will not allow firearms on the ships because of insurance issues. Of course this only applies to US flagged vessels. He is not sure what foreign flagged ships can do.


Heh. The rules are different if the Right People want them to be. I have a friend who decided to give up the lawyer biz and become a seaman, because he loved the sea--we met sailing square-rig. A few months later I received a very strange email asking me what the best make of M14 is. Turns out he was required to have an M14, and he wanted his own to train with.

Why the difference? I don't know all the details, but I believe they were carrying the US Navy's freight. The Navy seems to have an, um, muscular policy about piracy even when hiring civilian freighters.

He didn't buy one, BTW, because he found out he couldn't have it back here in CA to train with. Apparently the semi-auto version simply didn't float his boat, even though the full-auto on a genuine M14 is near useless.

7x57

yellowfin
04-15-2009, 11:15 PM
My Brother is a Merchant Seaman and he has told me that the shipping companies will not allow firearms on the ships because of insurance issues. Of course this only applies to US flagged vessels. He is not sure what foreign flagged ships can do.
For foreign ships they're either not able to legally buy guns there in the first place, or they buy them illegally, or they don't tell either way. Personally I don't see how it's any of their business one way or the other. "Insurance issues" my butt.

rabagley
04-16-2009, 1:58 AM
Mount three H&K GMG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_GMG)'s, each feeding from a magazine containing 40mm MEI HELLHOUND (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEI_HELLHOUND) munitions. One on each sheerline between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way to the stern and one on the fantail.

Either that or use GAU-19/A (ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-19) machine guns. You lose the long-range capability of the GMG, but you gain the "hail of death" effect.

The only real issue is getting a reliable source, but I'm sure that enough money spent in the right locations could set you up with whatever you need. Hell, I suspect that there's a valuable service to be provided here. Float a platform off the southern tip of India and another in the Mediterranean near Egypt, both in international waters. Stock mercs, and easily mountable weaponry. When you get a request, send out a boat to the steaming merchant vessel, quickly convert it to a privateer, leave mercs on the boat. The privateer goes through the Malacca Straits and the Suez, have another boat meet them on the other side to strip the guns and mercs back off and restock the platform on the other side. Hmmm...

JDay
04-16-2009, 4:09 AM
Mount three H&K GMG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_GMG)'s, each feeding from a magazine containing 40mm MEI HELLHOUND (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEI_HELLHOUND) munitions. One on each sheerline between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way to the stern and one on the fantail.

Either that or use GAU-19/A (ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-19) machine guns. You lose the long-range capability of the GMG, but you gain the "hail of death" effect.

The only real issue is getting a reliable source, but I'm sure that enough money spent in the right locations could set you up with whatever you need. Hell, I suspect that there's a valuable service to be provided here. Float a platform off the southern tip of India and another in the Mediterranean near Egypt, both in international waters. Stock mercs, and easily mountable weaponry. When you get a request, send out a boat to the steaming merchant vessel, quickly convert it to a privateer, leave mercs on the boat. The privateer goes through the Malacca Straits and the Suez, have another boat meet them on the other side to strip the guns and mercs back off and restock the platform on the other side. Hmmm...

There's a few problems with this. A privateer without a letter of marque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque#United_States) is a pirate under international law. Getting one is not easy to accomplish either. Although it is an option since we never signed the Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Paris). However I seriously doubt our current government would do this.