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View Full Version : Is there a set PPT/DROS fee?


bubbapug1
04-14-2009, 6:32 PM
Is $35.00 the standard PPT fee for a FTF transfer in a store or can a place charge more? I have bought numerous guns and never paid more that $35.00 until today at Triple B clays...it was $45.00 :confused:

Fjold
04-14-2009, 6:35 PM
Triple B clays ripped you off and broke the law

ke6guj
04-14-2009, 6:48 PM
A PPT is limited, by law to $35 max.

A PPT is a transfer between 2 CA-residents who both appear at the dealer at the same time. Any other transfer is not limited to $35 max.

bubbapug1
04-14-2009, 6:55 PM
Can anyone point me in the direction of any written legalize I can show them? The person I did the transfer with told them they were breaking the law, but their answer was silence. Its not a big deal, but I just want to know so I can talk with them about it when I pick up the gun in ten days.

ke6guj
04-14-2009, 7:03 PM
here you go.
What fees can I charge for handling a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?
If the transaction is a PPT, you are restricted to charging no more than $25.00 in State fees described and $10.00 per firearm for conducting the PPT. For example:

For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.
For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the State fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.
(PC section 12082)

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

bubbapug1
04-14-2009, 7:13 PM
Thanks, I will send them this or take it with me. I am sure it won't make me very popular there, and it looks like a great place to shoot. Maybe I should just keep my trap shut....no pun intended.

I would also like to add two things about the transaction.

1. It seems to me $10.00 is an outragously small fee considering the time tied up in a dros, although some places do it much faster than others. However, they still need to store the gun for 10 days and it ties up a salesman for at least 15 minutes who could be selling something else.

2. The gentleman at Triple B was an extremally nice guy..but the owner set the price. if they give me a refund of $10.00 I will give it to the gun salesman who helped us.

Tillers_Rule
04-14-2009, 8:23 PM
Don't worry about being popular there. If they are ripping you off, they are most likely ripping other people off. You should just be civil about is and ask the owner for an explanation and why he isn't subject to the same rules.

And personally, I think $10 is plenty of money for filing a little paper work when they might have just been standing there playing pocket pool.

halifax
04-14-2009, 9:31 PM
Thanks, I will send them this or take it with me. I am sure it won't make me very popular there, and it looks like a great place to shoot. Maybe I should just keep my trap shut....no pun intended.

I would also like to add two things about the transaction.

1. It seems to me $10.00 is an outragously small fee considering the time tied up in a dros, although some places do it much faster than others. However, they still need to store the gun for 10 days and it ties up a salesman for at least 15 minutes who could be selling something else.

2. The gentleman at Triple B was an extremally nice guy..but the owner set the price. if they give me a refund of $10.00 I will give it to the gun salesman who helped us.

They were wrong to charge $45.

That being said, thank you for realizing that "$10.00 is an outragously small fee ."

nplant
04-15-2009, 3:50 PM
The only people being ripped off in California by a state-mandated fee that can't be changed without legislation is the private business. The state has no business in setting values on services rendered. $35 is a ridiculously low price if you consider the time it takes to perform the work, and the space it take up in a dealer's safe for 10 days. The dealer makes no profit at all when these things are considered. At best, if they swallow this with a smile, and make it smooth for the seller and buyer, they've maybe got a repeat customer. But repeat customers that come in only to get a service peformed at a loss isn't exactly a great customer. It's no wonder most dealers restrict the times that they'll do such a transfer.

That said, technically, it is illegal to not provide the service at all, or to charge more than the law currently allows.

The state should get out of business just as it should get out of our private lives. I'll just keep wishing, I guess.

bohoki
04-15-2009, 4:34 PM
if the law requires private sales of firearms go through a dealer and all dealers just decided to not do ppts or charge $100

woudl that be fair for the average californian

socalgunrunner
04-15-2009, 6:54 PM
if the law requires private sales of firearms go through a dealer and all dealers just decided to not do ppts or charge $100

woudl that be fair for the average californian

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Since most FFL's do not seem to enjoy doing PPT's, if they were allowed to set their own prices they could just price it so high that nobody would ever ask them to do it.

That way customers would have no other choice but to sell their unwanted guns back to the dealer (at a loss of course), and/or purchase over-priced inventory from behind their counters.

jamesob
04-15-2009, 7:36 PM
i believe the way they are getting away with it is that i believe they can charge for each day that the weapon is in their custody, or am i wrong? i read that somewhere but don't remember where.

halifax
04-15-2009, 7:45 PM
i believe the way they are getting away with it is that i believe they can charge for each day that the weapon is in their custody, or am i wrong? i read that somewhere but don't remember where.

I've heard that one too but they are wrong to do it. The DOJ will tell them so if they ask. :)

Amacias805
04-15-2009, 7:48 PM
i believe the way they are getting away with it is that i believe they can charge for each day that the weapon is in their custody, or am i wrong? i read that somewhere but don't remember where.

if i recall, the law sets the days that they are required to hold, 10 day minimum, 30 days maxs to complete the dros. if they go over the 30 days, the dros must be completed again, and the dealer can charge for days in excess of the 30. i heard of (not sure if this is true, cause i didn't personally do business with them) dealers charging 10 bucks a day, after the 30.

again if i am wrong please correct me.

bubbapug1
04-15-2009, 7:55 PM
Let's not have this become a argument between gun buyers and gun sellers. If anything lets look at the folks in Sac as the people who have saddled us with this system. I do think back ground checks are a great idea. I wouldn't want bad guys free access to guns, although its foolish to think they don't have as much access as normal folks do, they just don't have to dros their weapons!

That said, it is a lot of liability to store a gun in a safe for ten days and to deal with some of the crazies I see pacing the floors at some stores...the obviously methed crowd...it makes me pause at times.

I appreciate the info and will show the paper to triple B's...if they give me back $10.00 great, if not...well not so good, but I am still going to shoot there!

nplant
04-15-2009, 8:28 PM
If anything lets look at the folks in Sac as the people who have saddled us with this system.
My point exactly. If the government got out of trying to run businesses, then FFLs could actually make money on the transaction, instead of having it rammed down their throats. That's fair for everyone. Everyone in business has a right to make money. And if one guy doesn't want to make money on the deal, fine. There will be someone else to come along and specialize in that type of transaction. He'll make plenty, and set an example, and pretty soon he'll have competition from someone who thinks they can do it better and cheaper. That's the beauty of a free market. Command economies don't usually work out.

Look at it this way - the state is more likely to run another gun shop out of business entirely than it is to make something somehow "more fair" for gun collectors.

Who is John Galt? ;)

Mssr. Eleganté
04-16-2009, 1:18 AM
The only people being ripped off in California by a state-mandated fee that can't be changed without legislation is the private business.

You are wrong on this. Dealers aren't the only ones being ripped off by the PPT requirements.

Dealers are being ripped off by the state-mandated fee of $10. They deserve more than that for the time and hassle it takes.

Private parties are being ripped off by the state-mandated $35 transfer fee and the costs of travelling to a gunshop twice. They should be able to transfer their private property without involving Dealers or the State.

Everybody involved is getting screwed over by the State. Dealers might have to do $40 worth of work for a measley $10, but at least they don't have to get dragged out of bed on their day off from work twice to complete a transfer like the buyer does. Until we can get the Dealer transfer requirements abolished, both sides need to just grin and bear it. Dealers can look at the bright side of having known gun buyers forced into their shops. PPT participants can look at the bright side of getting to hang out in a gun shop for 15 minutes to an hour. Neither side should try to steal money from the other to make up for the hassle.

halifax
04-16-2009, 4:52 AM
The state is being disingenuous. If they really wanted to encourage the public to follow their laws on transfers, they should have waived their own fees, not burdened the dealers with the loss.

DROS Fee $19
Safety and Enforcement Fee $ 5
Safety Training Fee $ 1
Maximum Dealer Fee per Firearm $10

Let the dealer keep the whole $35. That might be worth it.

rbetts
04-16-2009, 7:44 AM
Let the dealer keep the whole $35. That might be worth it.

For that matter, let the market set the price. Bet it would go up a bit. But then their main intent for the PPT (to register guns) :37: would not happen.

Doh!!

nplant
04-16-2009, 8:51 AM
Private parties are being ripped off by the state-mandated $35 transfer fee and the costs of travelling to a gunshop twice. They should be able to transfer their private property without involving Dealers or the State.

I stand corrected. This is quite true.

However, I disagree that there is a bright side when both parties are being forced into a bad business deal by the state. Can you tell that I don't like government involvement in business?:D

bubbapug1
04-16-2009, 12:50 PM
In todays world I think we can all see the goverment has not become part of the solution, it has become most of the problem....and this is only going to get worse until we take our check books away from the scumbags who now fill our public offices.

probie
07-22-2009, 11:02 PM
You are wrong on this. Dealers aren't the only ones being ripped off by the PPT requirements.

Dealers are being ripped off by the state-mandated fee of $10. They deserve more than that for the time and hassle it takes.

Private parties are being ripped off by the state-mandated $35 transfer fee and the costs of travelling to a gunshop twice. They should be able to transfer their private property without involving Dealers or the State.

Everybody involved is getting screwed over by the State. Dealers might have to do $40 worth of work for a measley $10, but at least they don't have to get dragged out of bed on their day off from work twice to complete a transfer like the buyer does. Until we can get the Dealer transfer requirements abolished, both sides need to just grin and bear it. Dealers can look at the bright side of having known gun buyers forced into their shops. PPT participants can look at the bright side of getting to hang out in a gun shop for 15 minutes to an hour. Neither side should try to steal money from the other to make up for the hassle.

I agree with the flow of logic...I feel that some of the FFLs have an opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade. When you have individuals coming into a gun shop to process paperwork you have a great opportunity to keep or make a customer out of them.

I called around several FFLs in the area to inquire about having a transfer performed for a gun out of County and was told, "We will not accept the FFL if it's a gun we carry in shop" and "We will charge over $100 in addition to dros if it's an item we do not carry"...

Ultimately it's the customer who looses out in all of this.

eltee
07-23-2009, 3:52 PM
When you consider the overhead of running a gun dealership, the $10.00 allowed to FFL's for a PPT is very low. In addition to the normal costs of running any business (rent, utils, licenses, taxes, staff, office equipment, etc.) and those unique to gun stores (required security devices, alarm service, gun safes) and the insurance to run a gun store it is almost a loss in some cases. Liability and general insurance for having an FFL, even a home-business, is very expensive.

In addition to the DROS paperwork, you need to log the firearm in and out of the FFL bound book, store it securely, etc. You are responsible for that firearm until it is delivered to the buyer. A customer can claim you damaged it, scratched it, etc. If it is stolen or damaged while you store it, you or your insurance will have to deal with the owner's claim against you.

Will the customer bring in a copy of his HSC or will you have to make a photocopy on your machine? If you need secondary documentation of an address, you'll probably have to make the photocopy. More time and money.

A SMART dealer will examine the gun for obvious safety issues. Even though you might simply be doing the DROS on a PPT, you are in the loop of that transaction and you can bet that an injured buyer (plaintiff) will name you in the lawsuit if the gun malfunctions. If the gun is used in a subsequent crime, you can bet you'll be answering lots of questions and sending photocopies (at your expense) to a variety of LE agencies.

All this for a handsome profit of $10.00. :rolleyes:

ke6guj
07-23-2009, 3:59 PM
Not everybody is saying that you don't earn the $10, but the law says that you can only charge $10 for the service. And, as part of accepting the privledge of being a dealer in CA, you will process PPTs for the public because the legislature wants all gun sales documented.

tenpercentfirearms
07-23-2009, 10:09 PM
I don't complain about PPTs. It is just part of the business. They mandate you have to transfer all firearms through me, so it is fair they mandate what I can do on a PPT. Seriously, I don't know why dealers whine about it so much. PPTs, even of handguns, is not that time consuming. We quite frequently have people lined up out the door.

I never feel bad for handling PPTs in the same order they came in and no one has ever said, "Damn it, I am leaving this worthless shop and you lost thousands of dollars of my business because you took the 10-20 minutes to do that PPT for that guy that got here before me!"

However, I have heard numerous threads where people who were given the shaft or the run around on PPTs have never returned.

This isn't rocket science.

Wild Bill
07-23-2009, 10:24 PM
I don't complain about PPTs. It is just part of the business. They mandate you have to transfer all firearms through me, so it is fair they mandate what I can do on a PPT. Seriously, I don't know why dealers whine about it so much. PPTs, even of handguns, is not that time consuming. We quite frequently have people lined up out the door.

I never feel bad for handling PPTs in the same order they came in and no one has ever said, "Damn it, I am leaving this worthless shop and you lost thousands of dollars of my business because you took the 10-20 minutes to do that PPT for that guy that got here before me!"

However, I have heard numerous threads where people who were given the shaft or the run around on PPTs have never returned.

This isn't rocket science.

+1 for 10percent:cool2: The way I look at it is if you want to be a ffl in california then you must do ppt and this is what you can charge. If you dont like it then dont open up shop. I know as a customer and gun owner, I would rather be able to sell my firearms the way it used to be, no ffls involved. But since the DOJ says otherwise we are all stuck with this.