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MP301
04-14-2009, 6:34 AM
I was just reading through the law regarding non rostered handguns from the exhibits in Gene's Summary Judgement post and have a question...

Did I miss the part where it says the exempted transactions (family transfers, used person to person, etc.), has to be face to face and not person to person through the mail. It has to go through a dealer either way....?

hawk1
04-14-2009, 8:12 AM
Your question is a bit awkward.
Explain "person to person through the mail", as this has been illegal to do for years.
There are a number of laws, both federal and state, preventing your from doing the above.
Not sure what context you are asking it in.

rabagley
04-14-2009, 8:25 AM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.

If you sent your rifle to a gunsmith who was also an FFL, he can send the rifle back to you directly (no FFL on the recipient side), but that's about the only way to actually receive a firearm through the mail unless you are an FFL yourself.

Being an FFL yourself isn't completely unheard of for normal folks. FFL03 (Collector of Curios & Relics) allows you to receive older rifles and shotguns (and possibly some others, but know the rules before you ship).

dilligaffrn
04-14-2009, 8:31 AM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.

If you sent your rifle to a gunsmith who was also an FFL, he can send the rifle back to you directly (no FFL on the recipient side), but that's about the only way to actually receive a firearm through the mail unless you are an FFL yourself.

Being an FFL yourself isn't completely unheard of for normal folks. FFL07 (Collector of Curios & Relics) allows you to receive older rifles and shotguns (and possibly some others, but know the rules before you ship).
Also, S&W and Springfield Armory, have both, directly sent me back pistols after warranty work.

Vin496
04-14-2009, 8:54 AM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.

If you sent your rifle to a gunsmith who was also an FFL, he can send the rifle back to you directly (no FFL on the recipient side), but that's about the only way to actually receive a firearm through the mail unless you are an FFL yourself.

Being an FFL yourself isn't completely unheard of for normal folks. FFL07 (Collector of Curios & Relics) allows you to receive older rifles and shotguns (and possibly some others, but know the rules before you ship).

That's not entirely correct.

Gun sales or transfers between States require an FFL on the receivers end. If someone is selling a C&R rifle in San Francisco they could legally send it in the mail direct to the buyer in Los Angeles.

As for many other States they could even do this for a "new" pistol. Now if they would do this is another matter, but it is legal to do so.

FortCourageArmory
04-14-2009, 9:48 AM
That's not entirely correct.

Gun sales or transfers between States require an FFL on the receivers end. If someone is selling a C&R rifle in San Francisco they could legally send it in the mail direct to the buyer in Los Angeles.
On that point you are not correct. Firearms in CA must go to an FFL, either a C&R FFL holder or manufacturer/dealer/gunsmith FFL. Sending a firearm that is not an antique (pre-1899) to a non-license holder will land the shipper in jail.

Librarian
04-14-2009, 10:32 AM
See this link to read about PPT
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_-_PPT

Vin496
04-14-2009, 11:16 AM
On that point you are not correct. Firearms in CA must go to an FFL, either a C&R FFL holder or manufacturer/dealer/gunsmith FFL. Sending a firearm that is not an antique (pre-1899) to a non-license holder will land the shipper in jail.

Can you show or quote the PC that states that? I have only seen the C&R exemption PC to a C&R purchase. I have never seen the PC you speaking of. This is the first time i've even heard that mentioned.

Rhys898
04-14-2009, 11:29 AM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.

If you sent your rifle to a gunsmith who was also an FFL, he can send the rifle back to you directly (no FFL on the recipient side), but that's about the only way to actually receive a firearm through the mail unless you are an FFL yourself.

Being an FFL yourself isn't completely unheard of for normal folks. FFL07 (Collector of Curios & Relics) allows you to receive older rifles and shotguns (and possibly some others, but know the rules before you ship).

07 is a manufacturer, 03 is C&R

rabagley
04-14-2009, 9:18 PM
07 is a manufacturer, 03 is C&R

Corrected. Thanks.

12voltguy
04-14-2009, 9:27 PM
I think he is asking
can my relitive send a off roaster handgun to my ffl for transfer through the mail, not ftf at the ffl
as we can't get handguns that are not on the roaster, but can ppt at the ffl ftf, but the family thing seems to not state no mailing the gun to the ffl, is what I think he is asking

MP301
04-14-2009, 9:30 PM
I was just reading through the law regarding non rostered handguns from the exhibits in Gene's Summary Judgement post and have a question...

Did I miss the part where it says the exempted transactions (family transfers, used person to person, etc.), has to be face to face and not person to person through the mail. It has to go through a dealer either way....?

Sorry, I need to clarify...my fault.

What I meant was that, if private party transfers - through an FFL obviously as provided by state law - are ok for non rostered handguns, then what section in related statutes say that the private party your purchasing from has to be physically there in person? Just because its coming from a private party in another city or state, it still has to go through an FFL and just because the person isnt there in person does not mean its not a private party transfer, as the FFL is just facilitation the transaction - UNLESS some particular statute says that both parties must be there.

If it doesnt say that specifically, then it would appear that this may be an underground regulation that DOJ-BOF has told FFL'S. Again, I couldnt find anything that specifically said private party transfers through an FFL REQUIRES THE SELLER TO BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT.

I may be wrong so thats why I posted this...because somewhere out in calguns land there are those that know much more then I!

CHS
04-14-2009, 9:43 PM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.


Not true. You can ship a firearm to yourself in another state.

For instance, rather than check your firearm on/in luggage, you UPS it to yourself at the location you are traveling or moving to. This is legal.

hoffmang
04-14-2009, 10:10 PM
On that point you are not correct. Firearms in CA must go to an FFL, either a C&R FFL holder or manufacturer/dealer/gunsmith FFL. Sending a firearm that is not an antique (pre-1899) to a non-license holder will land the shipper in jail.

I'm not so sure about that. If you have a rifle that you know was made in 1950 you would be eligible for the general exception to DROS and waiting periods and needing an FFL. I'm not aware of any PC that would stop you from sending a 50+ year old long arm through mail/common carrier from one CA resident to another who isn't prohibited.

-Gene

DDT
04-14-2009, 11:36 PM
See this link to read about PPT
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_-_PPT

I was just reading this piece and I don't see where it requires the seller to appear Face to Face at the FFL's shop. Isn't shipping the firearm "delivering" it to the FFL. And, as Gene has pointed out the seller isn't required to be from CA by statute either. Is BoF overstepping its authority by not permitting PPT via mail/private courier?

MP301
04-14-2009, 11:41 PM
I was just reading this piece and I don't see where it requires the seller to appear Face to Face at the FFL's shop. Isn't shipping the firearm "delivering" it to the FFL. And, as Gene has pointed out the seller isn't required to be from CA by statute either. Is BoF overstepping its authority by not permitting PPT via mail/private courier?


Thats my point and my reason for the post originally. Gene?

Amacias805
04-15-2009, 1:53 PM
Any shipping of a firearm through the mail must involve an FFL at one end of the shipment.

also if parents, grandparents, grandchildren, who may legally own firearms, may ship firearms to each other w/o FFls as long as its in state.

AJAX22
04-15-2009, 2:00 PM
I'm not so sure about that. If you have a rifle that you know was made in 1950 you would be eligible for the general exception to DROS and waiting periods and needing an FFL. I'm not aware of any PC that would stop you from sending a 50+ year old long arm through mail/common carrier from one CA resident to another who isn't prohibited.

-Gene

I agree with gene,

I know of no law (and I read up on the c&R stuff in quite a bit of depth) that would prohibit two residents of the state of CA from transferring a firearm through the mail.

the mail is just the mechanism of the transfer so it is essentially just the same as handing it to another person.

hoffmang
04-15-2009, 9:30 PM
Let's focus on two different cases.

1. SKS date stamped 1954.

2. Sig P262 manufactured in 2001.

For 1, I see no restriction in Federal or California law that would keep a California resident from sending the rifle to another California resident who is not prohibited via mail or common courier.

For 2, it looks to me like the California resident seller should be able to use an overnight non US Mail carrier to send the handgun to a California FFL. The text in 12082 says "The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm." I see no obviously legal reason that "shall deliver" necessarily implies "in person." Sending it UPS/Fedex in compliance with their rules is legally "deliver[ing]".

The rest does appear to be BoF underground regulation. Anybody see any Penal Code I'm missing on that?

-Gene

ke6guj
04-15-2009, 9:42 PM
Gene, if what you say is correct, and the PC does not specify that it must be delivered "in person", but can be shipped to the FFL, does that mean that if the current petition about PPTs only being between CA residents is ruled in our favor, would that also allow for shipments in from out of state to be considered PPT?

I could see maybe saying it had to come from a private party, and not an FFL, but that could put a crimp in the transfer fees profits from dealers. And then you get to toss in that they are required to do PPTs or risk a misdemeanor.

Bob Ragen
04-15-2009, 9:53 PM
A little off topic but who thinks of these terms, Off List Lowers, Not Unsafe, etc. Is it Pelosi, Boxer and Feinstein? Reason I asked is a couple of years ago Ms. Boxer was trying to get the Forest Service to declare trails in the forests which had not been closed termed and posted as "Not Closed" instead of just posting "trail open". Maybe there is a reason that makes since and if someone can school me on this twisted terminology I'd appreciated it very much.:confused:

ke6guj
04-15-2009, 9:58 PM
lets see, Off List was thought up by members of the gun forums to describe lowers that were not on the restricted lists.

Not Unsafe comes from the fact that in the PC, they deem all firearms to be Unsafe. Then, those that have passed their tests are classified as not unsafe. I'd guess they don't want to classify them as Safe, as a defense attorney could argue, "CA ruled that my client's handgun was SAFE, and my client believed them"

Librarian
04-15-2009, 10:00 PM
A little off topic but who thinks of these terms, Off List Lowers, Not Unsafe, etc. Is it Pelosi, Boxer and Feinstein? Reason I asked is a couple of years ago Ms. Boxer was trying to get the Forest Service to declare trails in the forests which had not been closed termed and posted as "Not Closed" instead of just posting "trail open". Maybe there is a reason that makes since and if someone can school me on this twisted terminology I'd appreciated it very much.:confused:

Off List Lower is a Calguns term - since there were two lists of named 'assault weapons' - original Roberti-Roos and the Kasler list - anything else is 'off list'.

'Not unsafe' is a slight re-use of part of PC 12031 which governs the Roster. Guns on the Roster "have been determined not to be unsafe handguns". Not 'determined to be safe'.

Bob Ragen
04-15-2009, 10:01 PM
Got it, I'm trying to use common sense and should have known better. Now the OLL makes sense, thanks for the lesson.:thumbsup:

bwiese
04-15-2009, 11:04 PM
There was initial confusion at end of 2005 of how to refer to legal non-listed receivers - for awhile folks were calling them "Harrott recievers" or "non Harrott receivers" and I could see that could lead to confusion and even trouble.

I believe I was the one that first coined the term "Off list" and "off list receivers" and "OLLs" in relation to CA gunlaws.

The terms seem pretty good, as the DOJ BoF (formerly Firearms Division) uses 'em internally. Glad I could help 'em maintain clarity.

We later coined the term "Off-Roster handgun" to separate "Rostering" from AW "listing" and avoid confuion between entities. Shortly after, we coined the term "NeRF" = "Non-Rosterable Frame" to indicate that a bare frame is, on a legal basis, not Rosterable and is not subject to constraints of 12125PC et seq.

MP301
04-16-2009, 1:01 AM
Let's focus on two different cases.

1. SKS date stamped 1954.

2. Sig P262 manufactured in 2001.

For 1, I see no restriction in Federal or California law that would keep a California resident from sending the rifle to another California resident who is not prohibited via mail or common courier.

For 2, it looks to me like the California resident seller should be able to use an overnight non US Mail carrier to send the handgun to a California FFL. The text in 12082 says "The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm." I see no obviously legal reason that "shall deliver" necessarily implies "in person." Sending it UPS/Fedex in compliance with their rules is legally "deliver[ing]".

The rest does appear to be BoF underground regulation. Anybody see any Penal Code I'm missing on that?

-Gene


I have had dealers say that they will not accept ups/etc.,a non rostered hadgun without the seller being present because they think its the law. Question is, how does one change this perception with the dealers? Is there something in writting we can come up with with maybe some legal info to straighten this out?

I have had to pass on deals from other calgunners because we were not close enough to meet in person and that chaps my hyde!

ZirconJohn
04-16-2009, 1:08 AM
See this link to read about PPT
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_-_PPT

Ya-know somethin' - ya gotta just love that CalGuns Wiki, ya just gotta love it!:thumbsup:

MP301
04-16-2009, 2:11 AM
See this link to read about PPT
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_-_PPT

Ok, I can see how this might be an obstacle for out of state sellers if the sale fails, but all this should mean is that if the sale fails, the gun gets turned in to the local Seriff or Police because the seller cant get DROS'D . The buyer is out the money but that should be the extent of it and the buyer took the risk buying a gun without being qualified.

But it definately doesnt create an obtsicle if, say the seller is in SoCal and the buyer is in NorCal, does it?

hoffmang
04-16-2009, 10:13 AM
Let me throw a wrinkle in.

An unrostered handgun can not be brought into California as it would violate the part in bold:
12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

Now, unrostered handguns via UPS between CA Residents who do a PPT, I see no law stopping that.

-Gene

ke6guj
04-16-2009, 12:15 PM
Let me throw a wrinkle in.

An unrostered handgun can not be brought into California as it would violate the part in bold:


Now, unrostered handguns via UPS between CA Residents who do a PPT, I see no law stopping that.

-Gene

Well, on its face, then an out-of-state person bringing in a non-rostered handgun to do a PPT (if CGF gets the PPT DROS fixed to allow non-CA sellers) would be prohibited.

But, the person bringing it in would be bringing/shipping it in in order to do a PPT, and a PPT is exempt from 12125 per:
12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

MP301
04-16-2009, 3:41 PM
Let me throw a wrinkle in.

An unrostered handgun can not be brought into California as it would violate the part in bold:


Now, unrostered handguns via UPS between CA Residents who do a PPT, I see no law stopping that.

-Gene

Ah, but if the sale is already complete - the seller has the money already because he would not ship without it - then you are importing for personal use, not "importing for sale" like the statute says, right?

I can see DOJ BOF not seeing it that way, but that is the way it is written anyway......