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rbetts
04-13-2009, 10:57 PM
I am somewhat of a computer guy, and I think a computer version of the A & D "Bound Book" would suit me well. Even though the ATF still wants us to print out lists and send them in with the software, I still think that this might be an option. Anyone gone this route yet?

What about the DROS paperwork? Taxes etc. I'm looking for workable solutions. All Ideas are welcome.

http://www.goldenstatetactical.com

remington
04-14-2009, 8:52 AM
I have tried to find some good software as well, I use RK's book now. I have found some but it is very expensive. Blue Book has a good program for personal collections, but I still use the the RK bound for that as well.

If you find anything let me know. Thank you.

FortCourageArmory
04-14-2009, 11:38 PM
I just set up mine in an Excel spreasdsheet. I can add as many pages as I need and can search for any combination of input....serial #, description, 4473 #, etc. Works for me.

halifax
04-28-2009, 12:18 PM
I've been getting email from this company but it looks like much more than I need. Maybe a bigger shop could use it.

AIMI (http://www.g7usa.com/AIMI/AIMI.html)

www.g7usa.com

Matt@EntrepriseArms
04-28-2009, 5:07 PM
We use Ebound here. When we first got the software, they were one of the only ATF approved electronic versions of the bound book. I like it a lot, and as a matter of fact they recently did a customized version for us for our manufacturing side. It has a cool feature that allows you to "bulk add" receiver serial numbers, which saves you a lot of typing as you can enter a range of numbers rather than entering each one seperately!

We had thought about going the spreadsheet route, but I like the Ebound version because it allows you to do searches, print reports for inventory, A & D, etc. I highly recommend it.

http://www.gundersonsoftware.com/ebound.htm

denz
04-30-2009, 8:46 PM
I am giving away Aimi eBook Pro, just pay for shipping.

remington
05-01-2009, 3:03 AM
Ill take it

Gottlieb
09-20-2009, 4:21 PM
I would like to offer my review of software offered for sale by http://www.firearmsrecordpro.com. I purchased the software because it appeared to be the most professional package for sale on the net. However, after I received my download instructions, it was problems from square one. First of all, the temporary username and password they give in the online user manual is incorrect. You'd think that after paying $99 for something, they'd have an accurate user manual.

Second, once I did get it installed, several buttons in the user interface were hovering over other buttons, and cound not be moved.

Third, I am now getting database errors. The company suggests I reinstall the software, but guess what - for $99 bucks, I don't think it's worth fooling with. I have generated an Excel spreadsheet which now works very well. I would avoid this software from Firearmsrecordspro. They say they are very popular, but I didn't find the software to be polished or functional at all. And I'm not a computer novice either.

I consider the $99 I spent on this software wasted money.

jksupplyco
09-20-2009, 9:25 PM
+1 for Excel

freakshow10mm
09-20-2009, 9:39 PM
I've got a Mac but I run my stuff on Numbers (spreadsheet). Copy on the HD, external backup, and a paper copy. Took 10 minutes.

JandJArmory
09-21-2009, 10:40 PM
+1 for excel
No varience required.

freakshow10mm
09-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Asking the ATF for a variance of any kind is like askinga chick for butt sex on a first date.

djbooya
09-22-2009, 12:22 AM
Asking the ATF for a variance of any kind is like askinga chick for butt sex on a first date.

some chicks dig that, no? :chris:

tenpercentfirearms
09-22-2009, 6:47 AM
I made a spread sheet using Excel and I will send a copy to anyone who asks.

My ATF auditors just told me the variance is no longer required. You just need to print out your records like once a year. I always kept it on Excel and printed it out whenever I added guns.

Why pay money when there is Excel and it is easy to use and search.

edit: Send an e-mail to ad@tenpercentfirearms.com and it will auto send you a copy and instructions.

customizedcreationz
09-23-2009, 5:13 AM
I made a spread sheet using Excel and I will send a copy to anyone who asks.

My ATF auditors just told me the variance is no longer required. You just need to print out your records like once a year. I always kept it on Excel and printed it out whenever I added guns.

Why pay money when there is Excel and it is easy to use and search.

I would be interested in seeing the excel version you setup please.

Thanks
Todd

guns@customizedcreationz.com

tenpercentfirearms
09-23-2009, 6:55 AM
e-mail me. ad@tenpercentfirearms.com

kpmp4ever93
01-18-2010, 9:52 PM
I would love to see this Excel Spreed sheet you did up! I am new to the FFL business and have tried some software and its POS stuff so far. Excel appears to be the way to go. If you can shoot me over a copy or where to e mail I would appreciate it!

tenpercentfirearms
01-19-2010, 11:11 PM
ad@tenpercentfirearms.com and I will send you a clean copy.

docplez
02-21-2010, 1:39 PM
I own a small gun shop in Nevada and received Firearms Record Pro v2.0 from Brownells two days ago to try and get away from pen and ink A&D. Paid full price of $105.20 (with shipping) it's now on sale for $69.99 but not worth a dime in my opinion. Have had nothing but problems and errors trying to install on computers with XP, Vista and Windows 7. Finally managed to install on Vista machine but it still doesn't work right ... if you open and close the program and attempt to reopen it won't recognize user name / password. I don't see any reason to even enter data I may never get back. Support team at software manufacturer says it's all of my computers faults not their software. They never once said "try this or try that" ... just that all my computers are having problems. Haven't heard anything back from Brownells but they also said "neither we nor Brownells refunds for software due to piracy issues." Why would anyone pirate software that doesn't work? If they don't refund I'll just quit buying from Brownells and make sure everyone gun shop owner I deal with knows not to buy this software. Wish I'd have read this forum before ....

So is anyone using anything that actually works? I used to just use my own Excel but latest ATF Rul. 2008-2 has made that obsolete in a number of ways.

Serpentine
02-21-2010, 2:49 PM
I own a small gun shop in Nevada and received Firearms Record Pro v2.0 from Brownells two days ago to try and get away from pen and ink A&D. Paid full price of $105.20 (with shipping) it's now on sale for $69.99 but not worth a dime in my opinion. Have had nothing but problems and errors trying to install on computers with XP, Vista and Windows 7. Finally managed to install on Vista machine but it still doesn't work right ... if you open and close the program and attempt to reopen it won't recognize user name / password. I don't see any reason to even enter data I may never get back. Support team at software manufacturer says it's all of my computers faults not their software. They never once said "try this or try that" ... just that all my computers are having problems. Haven't heard anything back from Brownells but they also said "neither we nor Brownells refunds for software due to piracy issues." Why would anyone pirate software that doesn't work? If they don't refund I'll just quit buying from Brownells and make sure everyone gun shop owner I deal with knows not to buy this software. Wish I'd have read this forum before ....

So is anyone using anything that actually works? I used to just use my own Excel but latest ATF Rul. 2008-2 has made that obsolete in a number of ways.

We are still using the pen and ink method, but it would be great to have a software program to save time and to assure best accuracy.

What do you think about contacting some of the larger distributors and asking what inventory software system they are using? Perhaps some have written their own code, but possibly they are using third party software that would work for dealers as well?

We should continue to work on this collectively as a 'committee' effort to reach a good, solid, supported solution, even if it may cost a few dollars more than going with a piece-meal or start-up software package.

I'll make a few calls to some distributors this week when I have some time.



.

Serpentine
02-21-2010, 3:04 PM
I left inquiry messages with with our major distributor reps. Will follow up here on any information I receive.

Also, this company RK Enterprises (http://www.rkffl.com/) has been a godsend for helping FFL's understand the laws and be in compliance with ATF and DOJ. I will speak to Bob tomorrow and see what his input is on this.


.

docplez
02-21-2010, 5:42 PM
Thanks ... I've seen a few after searching on the net but no one seems to have a review. Also most all are fairly pricey but given the cost of developing and writing code and security concerns, keeping up with the changes in operating systems (MS Vista, MS XP, MS 7, MAC, Linux, etc), and given the fact they won't sell millions of copies I can understand.

One issue I have noticed after my problems with Firearms Records Pro is now Excel doesn't work and I get ODBC errors (Open Data Base Connectivity). Doesn't make sense as they use SQL 2005 but who knows what that software did to my computers. Oh well ... back to pen and ink for now I guess.

djbooya
02-21-2010, 5:49 PM
I own a small gun shop in Nevada and received Firearms Record Pro v2.0 from Brownells two days ago to try and get away from pen and ink A&D. Paid full price of $105.20 (with shipping) it's now on sale for $69.99 but not worth a dime in my opinion. Have had nothing but problems and errors trying to install on computers with XP, Vista and Windows 7. Finally managed to install on Vista machine but it still doesn't work right ... if you open and close the program and attempt to reopen it won't recognize user name / password. I don't see any reason to even enter data I may never get back. Support team at software manufacturer says it's all of my computers faults not their software. They never once said "try this or try that" ... just that all my computers are having problems. Haven't heard anything back from Brownells but they also said "neither we nor Brownells refunds for software due to piracy issues." Why would anyone pirate software that doesn't work? If they don't refund I'll just quit buying from Brownells and make sure everyone gun shop owner I deal with knows not to buy this software. Wish I'd have read this forum before ....

So is anyone using anything that actually works? I used to just use my own Excel but latest ATF Rul. 2008-2 has made that obsolete in a number of ways.

How was using a spreadsheet made obsolete by Ruling 2008-2?

TripleT
02-21-2010, 9:47 PM
I've been using Wes's excel spreadsheet for at least six months after talking to my ATF contact who thought it looked great...

Not sure why somebody would think they couldn't use excel. :confused:

Heck, I have modified versions for a repair log, personal inventory as well as a high cap mag log.

I love excel... :D

dirtyJ
02-21-2010, 10:05 PM
My question about just using an excel type log is if all the special things the ATF used to require for electronic logs still apply. Are we required to print it out daily, or is that just good practice etc?

tenpercentfirearms
02-22-2010, 6:28 AM
If you are going to solely use software, you no longer must apply for a variance, however, your software must comply with this document.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2008-2.pdf

Several firearms industry members have asked whether computerized records may be
maintained without obtaining written approval from ATF if they contain all the required
information specified in the regulations and are maintained in a permanent form.
Additionally, industry members have questioned whether computer records in combination
with paper records may be maintained if they are permanent and contain all the
information required by the regulations.
ATF has determined that acquisition and disposition records required by 27 CFR Part 478,
Subpart H, and §§ 478.121, 478.122, 478.123, and 478.125(e), in computerized form,
satisfy the standard of permanency and are substantially equivalent to paper records if they
meet the following criteria:
1. All data entered into the computer system must be recorded into the database and
cannot be capable of being edited or modified at a later date without generating an
audit trail. The software system must retain any correction of errors as an entirely
new entry, without deleting or modifying the original entry. The system may allow
for entries in a notes column to explain any correction.
2. The system must have a reliable daily memory backup capability to protect the data
from accidental deletion or other system failure.
3. The system must meet the regulatory requirements for recording pertinent
information.
4. The system must allow queries by serial number, acquisition date, and name of the
manufacturer or importer. Commonly recognized trade names may be used when
recording the manufacturer/importer in the firearm description.
5. The FFL must periodically print all records from the system. Specifically, the
records must be printed:
(a) at least semiannually,
(b) upon request of an ATF officer,
(c) when the database is purged, and
(d) when the license is terminated
Printouts must be retained until the next printout is prepared.
The printouts must be limited to only the information required and specified by
regulation.
6. The FFL may download the required acquisition and disposition records to portable
storage devices such as Compact Discs (CDs), Digital Versatile Discs (DVDs), and
USB Flash Drives, instead of conducting the periodic printout of those records,
provided that the FFL presents the records in a printed format at ATF’s request. ATF
recognizes that printed records take up space and are not as easy to search as records
maintained in a digital format.
7. The computer printouts must contain firearms in inventory as well as all firearms
transferred during the period covered, sequentially by date of acquisition.
8. The system must record both the manufacturer and the importer of foreign-made
firearms.
9. Printouts may include antique firearms, but cannot include other merchandise.
However, antique firearms must be identified as “ANT” in the “firearm type” column.
10. The name and FFL number (if licensee) or name and address (if non-licensee) of the
supplier/consigner and the purchaser/transferee must be included in the computer
data. An ATF Form 4473 transaction number may be used in lieu of the address for
recording the transfer of a firearm to a non-licensee if the Forms 4473 are filed
numerically.
11. The system cannot rely upon invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any
of the required information.
12. All required records including acquisition and disposition records, must remain at the
licensed premises.
13. Upon termination of a license, the FFL must provide an American Standard Code for
Information Interchange (ASCII) text file (in conformity with industry standards) and
a file description, in addition to printouts of all records, to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center. The printout and ASCII text file must contain the information as
prescribed by regulation. All records must be forwarded to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center in accordance with 27 CFR 478.127, including complete printouts,
and ASCII text file (and file description) of the A&D records, and all ATF Forms
4473.
As indicated above, FFLs must provide complete printouts and an ASCII text file (and file
description) of A/D records and all ATF Forms 4473 to the ATF Out-of-Business Records
Center upon discontinuance of business. The records should be submitted to the following
location:
ATF Out of Business Records Center
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
ATF Rul. 2007-4, which allowed a FFL who had an approved variance to use
computerized acquisition and disposition records to periodically download the required
records to portable storage devices instead of printing out such records, is superseded by
this ruling.
ATF finds that good cause exists for authorizing the use of a computers and portable
storage devices to create and maintain the records required by 27 CFR Part 478, Subpart H,
as the use of computers is accepted throughout the business community as a reliable, costefficient
means of maintaining business records. ATF also finds that the use of a computer
to maintain required records, contingent upon the requirements outlined above, is
consistent with the effect intended by the requirements of Subpart H, as it will result in a
permanent, reliable record that will accurately indicate acquisitions and dispositions of
firearms. Finally, ATF finds that the use of computer records properly containing all the
required information should not hinder the effective administration of the Federal firearms
laws or regulations – use of such records generally makes it easier for ATF to conduct
inventories of firearms on hand and to audit required records. Accordingly, ATF
concludes that the requirements for approval of an alternate method or procedure in
accordance with 27 CFR 478.22 are met.
Held, licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers may use
computers to create and maintain acquisition and disposition records required by 18 U.S.C.
923(g)(1)(A) and 27 CFR 478.121, 478.122, 478.123, and 478.125(e), Subpart H, if the
system meets the above stated criteria.
Held further, licensees who wish to use computers to create and maintain their
acquisition and disposition firearms records in accordance with the requirements set forth
in this ruling are not required to obtain advance approval in accordance with 27 CFR
478.22.
Held further, if administrative difficulties arise through the use of portable storage
media instead of printouts, the FFL will be required to provide periodic paper printouts of
such records at the request of the Director, Industry Operations.
ATF Rul. 2007-4, approved June 26, 2007, is hereby superseded.
Date approved: August 25, 2008
Michael J. Sullivan
Acting Director

So Excel does not meet the ATF approval because there is no audit trail and it clearly fails #1.

So we only use Excel to print out our AD pages as we go. So officially, I am still on paper, but it is printed paper. It makes the records look nice and clean. I can also use my Excel file as back up should my paper copies get destroyed. More importantly I can use it to search my records and find guns by serial number immediately and know what page they are on in the bound book.

If you are still writing everything out by hand to start, stop! Go to Excel. Now when we sign guns out, we do it by hand and we also go back and manually type them in as well. This actually isn't so bad for three reasons. First, if you sit in front of the computer as you are signing guns out of the book, you can easily find what page they are on by searching for the serial number. No more flipping through pages looking for a gun. This actually is worth its weight in gold. Second, by then inputting the information in manually, you can also instantly know without having to look at the book who purchased a firearm. And finally, if you need to go back and reprint out some sheets for some reason, the data is there and ready to go.

I have been audited using this system and as TripleT stated he has also been audited using this system. Both sets of auditors (they were different) seemed rather happy with the set up. My auditors liked it because I just copy the main tab at the bottom during our audit. In effect I now have a brand new copy of the book to sort it how I please. So I sort it by deposition date, then by manufacturer and serial number and print out the pages with no deposition. I hand that to the auditor and as the other auditor reads out manufacturer and serial numbers, she checks them off. Makes an audit go through real quick. The easier you can make it on your auditors, the better in my opinion.

When the audit is all through, I just delete that new tab at the bottom I made and I am good to go. Just remember if you find mistakes as they go, you will need to fix them on the original tab that is still there, not the audit copy.

More importantly, we got nailed for having a bunch of missing guns. Well actually, 47 missing guns. However, they weren't missing, we just were failing to double check the deposition process. Using my POS software during the audit, I was finding these errors in less than a minute and get the bound book updated. Still the auditors still ding us for each one, so that is no good. In the end it is just a failure to log out, still a frowned upon situation.

So now we are going to to trimester audits in house. We use the same process the ATF uses. And we can do an audit in a day using the Excel print outs. We had to audit about 500-600 guns on our last audit. I also have a new tab at the bottom that tracks my audits too.

Best of all it was free and I am sending out free copies from ad@tenpercentfirearms.com.

Capt. Speirs
02-22-2010, 7:34 PM
Slightly off topic; what do you use for a transaction serial number? My ATF agent said to use the month and year with a sequential number to make it easier to find specific guns. For Feb this year it would be; 0210xxx, xxx = sequential number 001, 002, 003, etc.

tenpercentfirearms
02-22-2010, 11:24 PM
Slightly off topic; what do you use for a transaction serial number? My ATF agent said to use the month and year with a sequential number to make it easier to find specific guns. For Feb this year it would be; 0210xxx, xxx = sequential number 001, 002, 003, etc.

My problem with that system is it is too easy to end up duplicating numbers. So we now use our point of sale receipt number. What is nice about that is it makes referencing back and forth from the A&D to the POS really easy and since it keeps assigning numbers as I sell them, no duplicates.

Now your ATF agent might not like the idea that your number system has gaps. For example, if I sell you a gun on 14567, some ammo on 14568, and then another gun on 14569, then I have a one number gap. Nothing in the regs says that you have to use control numbers, nothing says they can't have gaps in your number system, and more importantly, you can organize them in three different ways: alphabetical, chronological, or by control number. When the area rep kind of didn't like my gap sequence, I simply told her I wasn't organizing them by control number, but by chronological order. She accepted that and we moved on.

kemasa
02-23-2010, 4:07 PM
If you are going to use the year and month, I would suggest having the year first so that the numbers always get larger, rather than being all over the place. It also helps if you sort by that field since otherwise all the same month will sort together for each different year.

ugimports
02-23-2010, 4:16 PM
Slightly off topic; what do you use for a transaction serial number? My ATF agent said to use the month and year with a sequential number to make it easier to find specific guns. For Feb this year it would be; 0210xxx, xxx = sequential number 001, 002, 003, etc.

I use:
YYYYMMDD-HHmm

right now would be:
20100223-1615

long, yes, but i use a computer to generate it. And I'll never have duplicates because if I have 2 people doing paperwork at the same time I just shift one by a minute.

Conceivably you could have duplicates, but that's not a scenario a 1 man shop will run into.

PIRATE14
02-23-2010, 6:20 PM
Well we jus use the DROS number to sequence our 4473s---same thing and it's easy to look up the same number instead of inventing a new one.

We used to use EXCEL and it worked for our first Audit but got hammered on it for the second.....:mad:

We are converting to AMIPRO and so far it hasn't had any hiccups but we need it too do more for us....but so far it seems good and it's not too expensive.....

PIRATE14
02-23-2010, 6:25 PM
I am giving away Aimi eBook Pro, just pay for shipping.

Lets chat....

NewFrontierArmory
03-01-2010, 11:29 AM
I use EBound by Gunderson Software.

It has its little quirks like any other program, but nothing huge.

Runs a good inventory and multiple handgun sale report, and stores all the info from other FFLS / Vendors for quick log ins when you re-buy from the same vendors.

You can also maintain a list of popular firearms and it will enter everything but the serial number into the "A" side for you when you type in something like "G19"

The search feature is great and has saved me **** tons of time pulling 4473's

What makes up for all the little quirks is the customer service. I screwed up while switching it from one pc to another at the office and they stayed on the phone with me for 2 hours until we got it all squared away.

Great folks and a great program.

PolishMike
03-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Didn't see it mentioned here.. I use cervelle software's POS system and it includes a a/d book. I like it because everything is tied to inventory. As soon as you get something it adds it to the book then when you complete the sale it fills out the rest automatically.

Their support has been extremely helpful as well.

Lone Star Firearms
04-28-2010, 10:33 PM
Don't waste your money or time with Firearms Record Pro from Wolf Precision.
I have version 1.5. I now know why Wolf Precision does not offer a trial version to test the software. The software does not allow you to store Vendors or Customers. Unless you NEVER purchase more than one firearm from a distributor or sell more than one to an individual this will not be a problem. If you purchase 10 guns from a distributor, you will have to enter the distributor information 10 times, pretty advanced huh. They claim to be thinking of adding a Vendor database to it but replied that they will not do so for customers becuase of the possibility two people could share the same name. This does not seem to be an issue to the Social Security Administration, Department Of Motor Vehicles, offices of Vital Records (Birth Certificates), etc but Wolf Precision can not figure out that if two people have the same name, one is probably a Sr. and the other is a Jr. There are other products available that will do what this will not. Save yourself the money, this product is NOT ready for use in an FFL business... unless you like to repeadedly enter the same data unneccesarily.

Not to plug them but I will be continuing to use the free Firearms Management System provided by Sports South (distributor). You can enter other distributors in the database, it's not exclusive to them. The only reason I bought Wolf's crap was the backup. I was granted a variance by the Ft. Worth ATF office based on the screenshots I gave them from the Sports South software, it just does not offer a backup.

If any of you are comfortable with computers and have access to copies of XP, you can make sure you have backups by running a virtual machine within your current machine. Virtualbox is a free virtualization product from Sun. VMware workstation is pretty costly but does have a more polished look and feature set. You install VMware or VirtualBox, setup a guest with your Win XP disk and install the A/D software there. It is very easy to backup a virtual machine on a regular basis and should something happen to your Host machine (the OS you boot to) you can just copy the virtual image to a new computer running the same software (VMware/VirtualBox) and start the backed up image as if nothing ever happened. My ATF rep loved that idea since there would be redundancy with the electronic records (the virtual machine backups).

gunenvy
05-06-2010, 9:18 PM
We ended up writing our own, and had to take some strange things into account due to the ATF rules. Its web based, so we had to discuss with the ATF the fact that technically the data is not at the premises (its at our data center) etc.... fun so far and we have ways around that need anyway.

Its been fun putting it together, building the audit trail functions, attachment functions, automated printing etc... will probably publish it in time once we have all the requirements nailed down.

hegunshop
05-07-2010, 9:02 AM
I like the idea of a computer generated bound book but doubt the ATF would like the idea. I have used a computer with a program I wrote in a database program called filepro about 10 years ago. I love it and would be lost without it. So I use the record number in my actual bound book that I use (I have gone through about 10 volums now and am using the Brownells books which seem to be nice and meet the ATF requirements) however I add one item on each entry and that is the record number in the software program for the 4473 form, the record number for the customer, and the record number for the gun. This allows me to put a lot more detail information regarding the gun, customer, and the sale to refer back to. It is not as complex as it sounds here and only takes seconds to do. So I guess I am blending both worlds and it works very well for me as out of hundreds of transactions both for gunsmith work and gun sales I have a lot of detail. I guess you could do a similiar thing in excel but I found that a relational database where it links everything together works really nice and smooth. My ATF agent is very happy each time he has dropped by and never a ding on the records so I guess if they are happy I am happy and can lay my hands on any 4473 in seconds instead of sorting through them for hours looking for one.
Dave HE Gunshop

I am somewhat of a computer guy, and I think a computer version of the A & D "Bound Book" would suit me well. Even though the ATF still wants us to print out lists and send them in with the software, I still think that this might be an option. Anyone gone this route yet?

What about the DROS paperwork? Taxes etc. I'm looking for workable solutions. All Ideas are welcome.

http://www.goldenstatetactical.com

tenpercentfirearms
12-10-2010, 6:48 AM
Did you guys know I get e-mails requesting this Excel sheet from all over the country? About one a week, sometimes more. Crazy.

TripleT
12-10-2010, 7:21 AM
The Ten Percent Excel Bound Book has gone viral,,, nice !

It sure makes it easy to find a customer, firearm, vendor, etc.

As I said before, I asked my ATF contact about using it and we exchanged the format three times until it was how he wanted to see it. He then told me I would need to print out a copy at regular intervals (I'm printing it every six months) and store it for audit.

Thanks Again Wes !

tenpercentfirearms
12-10-2010, 1:05 PM
If you are printing it once a month you are in violation (assuming you didn't mod it to track changes and self back up). You in theory should be printing the last page every time you make a new acquisition.

TripleT
12-10-2010, 1:12 PM
Well then, I may have an interesting conversation with my friendly ATF contact upon audit, being he told me how to mod it and how often I needed to print it out.

gunenvy
12-10-2010, 9:11 PM
If you are printing it once a month you are in violation (assuming you didn't mod it to track changes and self back up). You in theory should be printing the last page every time you make a new acquisition.

WE worked around that on our system by having it print a disposition sheet for everything that left the building, which gets put in the file. Once a week it then prints out a traditional bound book too, but that was more for tradition.

One day we may even release it to the public, we just added 4473 printing and Multi Pistol form automation, faxing is integrated now and next is the Post Office 1508 form :) One day we will stop enhancing it and let somebody else use it LOL

GoingQuiet
12-10-2010, 11:15 PM
Very interesting Excel solutions here.

When I suggested an Excel spreadsheet - I was told it was not workable as there is NO audit trail.

I have pen and paper, but I'm not as high volume as I'd like to be.

tenpercentfirearms
12-11-2010, 7:49 AM
Very interesting Excel solutions here.

When I suggested an Excel spreadsheet - I was told it was not workable as there is NO audit trail.

I have pen and paper, but I'm not as high volume as I'd like to be.

That is true, you cannot keep the Excel sheet on the computer. However, what is the difference between printing out blank A&D pages as you go and filling them in with ink and printing out pages with the acquisitions already filling out on the last page? I argue nothing.

So as long as your Excel program is merely an unofficial copy and the paper bound book that has it's last pages printed out every time a firearm is acquired, you really are not using an electronic copy and the variance doesn't apply.

My auditor loves the fact that I can take my unofficial copy sort it by blank spots in the disposition section, then sort it by manufacturer, and then sort it by serial number and print that out. And that might be why she doesn't care that sometimes the dispositions are also in print.

I also plan on closing out my bound books every year from now on too. Every gun I have in stock at the end of the year will be closed out as "12/31/10 Ten Percent Firearms 9-77-01627 Moved to 2011 A&D Book". All the blanks will move over and all of the guns that left the building over the year will stay in an old book I no longer have to flip through.

tenpercentfirearms
01-20-2011, 9:17 AM
I still keep getting hits on this and it is taking a bit of time to answer the e-mails so I decided to spruce it up a bit and give you all the option of donating some cash to help my spreading this around!

http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=93&products_id=768

or just send your request directly.

ad@tenpercentfirearms.com

You are under no obligation to donate, but they would certainly be welcome!

Rudolf the Red
02-18-2011, 7:57 AM
Good Lord! I'm still writing this stuff down in the same Brownells A&D book I got in 1992. Plus, my records are by date only. Never sold two things on one day yet so it has not been a problem.

KC223
03-21-2011, 9:31 PM
Our store has had a hard time finding decent software. We recently tried Coloseum AIMI with high hopes, but it has been a disaster. Only $500 from Brownells and the sales/support person making it sound like it was the best thing since sliced bread we purchased it. After installing it with a few hicups and 3 hours on the phone we spent a week transferring firearms, signing up with the FBI e-check ect but the program has been a total disaster. Error codes, crashes, re-installs and the worst support one could imagine. Their support forum is full of issues and complaints (but they delete the complaints & major issues). Our old program 4473EZ was more stable, but would not print correctly during a BATF audit so we dumped it. This program is a total waste of time, money and resources. After the mess these software companies have created Excel and printing daily is sounding like the way to go.

jtmkinsd
03-21-2011, 10:45 PM
Our store has had a hard time finding decent software. We recently tried Coloseum AIMI with high hopes, but it has been a disaster. Only $500 from Brownells and the sales/support person making it sound like it was the best thing since sliced bread we purchased it. After installing it with a few hicups and 3 hours on the phone we spent a week transferring firearms, signing up with the FBI e-check ect but the program has been a total disaster. Error codes, crashes, re-installs and the worst support one could imagine. Their support forum is full of issues and complaints (but they delete the complaints & major issues). Our old program 4473EZ was more stable, but would not print correctly during a BATF audit so we dumped it. This program is a total waste of time, money and resources. After the mess these software companies have created Excel and printing daily is sounding like the way to go.

I know three FFL's who use the ebook (Coloseum) bound book. While all of them did have some issues transitioning to the software, each of them would swear by it...even with an occasional issue here and there. It solves many more problems than it creates, and it's easy to use/navigate with multiple bound books (inventory/large cap mag/personal) once up and running.

However, all of the FFL's I know that use the program are higher volume dealers, so the cost/benefit may not be there for the smaller dealers.

gdict
04-29-2011, 12:11 AM
Does anyone have any further comments about AIMI EBOOK software? I am looking at the new AIMI EBook Lite II version that is supposed to release shortly. I am a little concerned by the fact that they are not accepting new clients right now. Is the 1.0 version so bad?

I want to use an e bound book and I would really like something that integrates with Intuit POS.

Cheers!

WFAInc
05-17-2011, 4:48 PM
Anything more on Gunderson's Ebound?

EBR Works
10-09-2011, 12:27 PM
Does anyone have any further comments about AIMI EBOOK software? I am looking at the new AIMI EBook Lite II version that is supposed to release shortly. I am a little concerned by the fact that they are not accepting new clients right now. Is the 1.0 version so bad?

I want to use an e bound book and I would really like something that integrates with Intuit POS.

Cheers!

Reviving this thread to post my experience with AIMI EBook.

I installed the free version of AIMI EBook as downloaded from Coloseum Software. I spent about 6 hours getting this set up. I transferred several firearms from the the retail book to the manufacturing book. It reset the inventory numbers that I had assigned already, which would be very confusing. I tried to edit one of the entries and the program crashed. This event caused the entry for that firearm to show as transferred, but to nowhere. No way to undo this or edit the invalid transfer. The program has some slick features but is very buggy. I have read that their support is awful. I guess I just wasted half a day. I had very high hopes for this. :mad:
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Brazuca87
12-13-2011, 8:56 AM
Any more insight on the AIMI eBook (II) Pro?

remington
12-13-2011, 9:46 PM
I am small volume and Excel Certified so I made one. The AD and D is pretty standard with some conditional formatting so that rows change color if is an out of state sale or presonal transfer. It follows the RK book exactly. I just added a out of state/presonal transfer column and doj approval number column. It is linked to another sheet i use internally that has a checkbox for all of the items we go thru (copy of cdl, prints, HSC, etc..) that i click if completed. Its essentially a self audit. Also includes a place for cost, sale, tax, profit. Finally a pivot table also is incorporated that auto calc taxes by qtr. Its simple, clean and legible. I save each DROS in a folder and if I click on the buyer it pulls up a PDF of the DROS. Wont work for high volume. But works for me and is free.

jroberts1968
02-29-2012, 6:40 AM
+1 on Ebound.

It is a very nice set up.

Sacramento Black Rifle
04-17-2012, 4:53 PM
We use http://www.fastboundbook.com/ we do very high volume so it makes sense. ATF compliant, works well and great support. I am very happy with this program so +10000. I think they have a free demo to try out. Also you can offer it free of charge to customers that want to keep track of personal guns they own.

firearmsforyou.com
05-29-2012, 3:12 PM
We started using http://www.logbooksforguns.com in the last couple week and have liked it. We have test a couple other systems and had problems with them. Also they are cheaper than fast bound.

franklinarmory
05-30-2012, 10:27 AM
I made a spread sheet using Excel and I will send a copy to anyone who asks.

My ATF auditors just told me the variance is no longer required. You just need to print out your records like once a year. I always kept it on Excel and printed it out whenever I added guns.

Why pay money when there is Excel and it is easy to use and search.

edit: Send an e-mail to ad@tenpercentfirearms.com and it will auto send you a copy and instructions.

+1... We were audited recently and the only thing we had to add to our spread sheet was the country of manufacture. (I didn't realize that the 07 requirement was a little different than the 01.)

Anyhow, Yolanda loved being able to search and compare to our quick books software. We just set her up on a computer for two days, and she had no complaints.

rbetts
05-31-2012, 5:53 PM
I finally found the very best FFL bound book software. Kudos to the Excel Spreadsheet system. It works great. I ended up using a paper book system for 2 gazillion guns and then had folks demonstrate their software to me before I made a buying decision. I ended up going with a distributor based bound book system that automatically updates when I order and is about as automated as it gets. 4 gazillion guns later, we had our most recent ATF audit with zero (thats right zero) audit exceptions.

System is integrated with our CRM and Quickbooks programs and soon will allow us to use a barcode scanner to further reduce error potential. Check with your distributors to see what they have available for you. You might save some dough and time as well and your ATF agent will love you as well.

tenpercentfirearms
09-27-2012, 7:15 AM
Just a heads up, I got an e-mail from a Excel user that their ATF auditor said the bound book has to be bound. Nope.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html

A “bound book” is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises.

I updated my auto-responder e-mail to address this too.

The offer still stands. ad@taftguns.com

One78Shovel
09-27-2012, 11:27 AM
deleted- Wrong forum

-178S

LewisTactical
12-13-2013, 7:51 AM
Hello,
The members of Lewis Tactical, LLC wrote FFL Tools which automates as much of the A&D process as possible. FFL Tools consists of three parts which can be run on a single computer or each part on its own computer. The parts are:
4473 Client: Used by the buyer to fill out the 4473. (I run this on a laptop that is about 5 years old)
FFL Tools: This is the main program that the FFL uses to acquire and dispose of firearms.
MS SQL database; Stores all the information. I run FFL Tools and the MS SQL database on my main computer.
Check out http://www.ffl-tools.com The application help file can be found at http://www.ffl-tools.com/index.php/documentation. The site also has a link to download a fully functional 30 day trial.
Thank you
Tim