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SeanCasey
04-13-2009, 8:17 PM
Can the locked container by an article of clothing?

For instance a leather jacket with interior pockets, modified to have two zipper pulls on a single zipper (like a laptop bag, or luggage bag, or range bag) that allows for a thin combination dial lock, thus containing the firearm in a locked compartment.

Would this be a legal locked container?

Librarian
04-13-2009, 8:27 PM
Interesting question.

The language says "secure container", and as we've seen, offers no definition of "secure".

I could see some of the 'armored' motorcycle jackets, maybe.

KylaGWolf
04-13-2009, 8:31 PM
I would say no since the material of the jacket could be bent to get to the trigger....or so some would think. I think someone said before soft containers are iffy on another thread.

SeanCasey
04-13-2009, 8:52 PM
Interesting response. So if this "container" could be reinforced somehow to render it imposible to manipulate the trigger then it could possibly be less gray area... Hmmmm. That hard buy flexible vinyl surface for mouse pads might have another useful function as a pocket liner...

tba02
04-13-2009, 9:04 PM
I will once again argue that it is "clothing" and not a "container". A pocket is a component of said article of clothing. I *really* hope you can prove me wrong, I have a leg pocket of my M/C pants that locks and is protected by armour, but it's still not a container that I can pull out per se. (they're pants for chrissakes - whoops, better be carefull there)

fairfaxjim
04-13-2009, 9:25 PM
I see that one as this - you get arrested for concealed carry. DA goes into court with your jacket as evidence and argues that jacket is clothing, pocket is accessible part of clothing, not secure container. DA pulls out metal handgun case with mondo padlock (two padlocks if he/she is any good) on it and tells jury that THIS is what the law means as a secure container, not this and holds up your jacket.
Do you feel confident that your attorney can convince 12 joe/jane schmoes off the street - who most likely are liberal as hell and wouldn't want to let you carry in the metal case - that your jacket pocket was a valid "secure" container. If you've ever served on a jury, you know what yahoo ideas jurrors can get.

I personally don't know an attorney that I would trust to pull that one off.

SeanCasey
04-13-2009, 9:35 PM
Good point. Gives me a different idea... A form fitting hard plastic case that is the same general size and shape as the firearm the uses a lock that could then be carried inside of the jacket pocket. The locked container is simply being transported inside of the jacket.

cr250chevy
04-13-2009, 9:46 PM
I was just reading up on random definitions and this would be illegal. It goes with something about concealing a firearm in a manner that it can still be operated from within the concealed container. basically don't do it!

SmithAndJohnson
04-13-2009, 10:19 PM
I was just reading up on random definitions and this would be illegal. It goes with something about concealing a firearm in a manner that it can still be operated from within the concealed container. basically don't do it!
I'd like to see citations on those definitions, as answering the definition of what a "secure container" is would be a nice achievement.

But, that nit-pick aside, since the legal locked concealed carry also stipulates *UNLOADED*, how is operation of the firearm from within the container relevant?

KylaGWolf
04-13-2009, 10:29 PM
Ok I used the search feature here was the link for the container that was soft sided that had some good information on it.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=132807&highlight=seabag

here is a specific citation too: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040

Someone brought up a good point on the seabag question and I will say it would probably happen with the jacket question too. More than likely a good DA would say that you could cut the jacket to get to the gun therefore it is not secure.

Although devils advocate you can cut a lock....so is there truly such a thing as secured container.

HK Dave
04-13-2009, 11:58 PM
Common sense would dictate that a jury would not agree that any jacket is a "container". It would probably cost a whole lot of money to make them see otherwise.

MP301
04-14-2009, 1:17 AM
12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.


Ah crap! I guess your not supposed to carry your handgun in a locked container around town whilst not in your vehicle. This kind makes the locked jacket, etc. point moot once your out of the car anyway, yes?

Quiet
04-14-2009, 4:08 AM
I agree with the other posters that clothing does not equal container.

Ah crap! I guess your not supposed to carry your handgun in a locked container around town whilst not in your vehicle. This kind makes the locked jacket, etc. point moot once your out of the car anyway, yes?

Read the rest of the penal code you cited.


Penal Code 12026.1
(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

SeanCasey
04-15-2009, 9:52 PM
So basically if the container (whatever it may be) would be commonly accepted to be a container, and the container itself concealed on the person, as long as the person was no commiting any crimes, and container carried as per the posted PC, it would be technically legal?

Untamed1972
04-16-2009, 10:04 AM
I've wondered a similar thing with say a subcompact pistol in a small pistol case or "CD" case like the the one posted with the video awhile back. If the case was small enough to fit into a cargo pants/shorts pocket with pistol locked inside would that be sufficient? Carrying pistol in something like a backpack, laptop case or whatever that can be easily seperated from my person makes me kinda nervous.

SeanCasey
04-16-2009, 10:17 AM
I am really curious about this as if it is I have made a little prototype concealable locked container specifically for handguns (this is what happens when I stay up late!).

I personally don't see anything in the PC regarding concealing the container, but from talking to a family member who is a lawyer (but admittedly does not handle criminal law and is not much of a gun person), he seems to think it is a bit of a gray area.

I am half tempted to make a one off complete sample of my container and bring it down to the local Sheriffs station (Chino Hills is a SBCSD contract city) and ask them what they would do if they found a carry container concealed on a person that otherwise seemed to meet legal requirements for a secure locked container.

Untamed1972
04-16-2009, 10:23 AM
I am really curious about this as if it is I have made a little prototype concealable locked container specifically for handguns (this is what happens when I stay up late!).

I personally don't see anything in the PC regarding concealing the container, but from talking to a family member who is a lawyer (but admittedly does not handle criminal law and is not much of a gun person), he seems to think it is a bit of a gray area.

I am half tempted to make a one off complete sample of my container and bring it down to the local Sheriffs station (Chino Hills is a SBCSD contract city) and ask them what they would do if they found a carry container concealed on a person that otherwise seemed to meet legal requirements for a secure locked container.

It's worth a shot. I mean techinally speaking if the gun is locked inside a container then the gun is concealed whether or not the container is concealed. So what is the locked container is then placed inside a backpack or briefcase? It seems more that the real issue is whether the gun is loaded or not. Because a loaded gun, locked in a briefcase and the briefcase still be openly visible will still get you dinged for CCW w/o a permit. Becase in reality would the law really want you transporting your guns in an easily identifiable container that could make you a target and that could then be easily stolen from you?

SeanCasey
04-16-2009, 10:38 AM
True enough, the loaded issue I didn't even bring up since loaded is specifically forbidden by the PC. Basically my goal to come up with a good system for legal concealed carry in a locked container that does not require me to actually carry around something in addition to what I am wearing or is attached to me. I am going to something lightweight and no more than a 1/4 inch larger than the firearm.

Untamed1972
04-16-2009, 10:41 AM
True enough, the loaded issue I didn't even bring up since loaded is specifically forbidden by the PC. Basically my goal to come up with a good system for legal concealed carry in a locked container that does not require me to actually carry around something in addition to what I am wearing or is attached to me. I am going to something lightweight and no more than a 1/4 inch larger than the firearm.

I was just comparing loaded CCW with unloaded. The big difference between the 2 seems to be the loaded/unloaded status of the gun, not so much the make-up of the container. But being that it is a poorly defined statement in the PC as to what the container is, it would give a DA more latitude in trying to prosecute it and convict if he can convince the jury of HIS definition of secure container.

mblat
04-16-2009, 11:49 AM
I am wondering where our "resident" experts on this? Gene? Librarian?

MikeinnLA
04-16-2009, 12:43 PM
While reading this, a question came to mind regarding carrying in a car. If you had two of those small Gun Vault quick access safes in your car, one with the gun locked up and one with the loaded mags locked up, would that be legal? Just curious.

Mike

hoffmang
04-16-2009, 12:52 PM
I would not want to argue the "locked jacket" = "locked container" in court. I however would be very comfortable with a locked container in a jacket pocket (assuming the gun is unloaded.)

-Gene

GuyW
04-16-2009, 1:04 PM
While reading this, a question came to mind regarding carrying in a car. If you had two of those small Gun Vault quick access safes in your car, one with the gun locked up and one with the loaded mags locked up, would that be legal? Just curious.

Mike

Loaded mags don't have to be separated from the gun / in a separate container...just not inserted in mag well..
.

Flintlock Tom
04-16-2009, 1:20 PM
While reading this, a question came to mind regarding carrying in a car. If you had two of those small Gun Vault quick access safes in your car, one with the gun locked up and one with the loaded mags locked up, would that be legal? Just curious.

Mike
That's exactly how I started out carrying. Now that I have started open carry, I keep the mags in my belt pouch and put my gun in my gun vault while in the car. If its just a short trip and I know I'm not going near a school, I just keep it in my holster.
Yes, it's legal, but having two gun vaults seems unnecessary since, it seems, that having the mags in the same "container" is okay.

Decoligny
04-16-2009, 2:13 PM
Interesting response. So if this "container" could be reinforced somehow to render it imposible to manipulate the trigger then it could possibly be less gray area... Hmmmm. That hard buy flexible vinyl surface for mouse pads might have another useful function as a pocket liner...

I don't think this would be an issue as the gun in the "container" has to be unloaded. Unless you could find a way to insert the magazine, rack the slide, and then pull the trigger!

bigcalidave
04-16-2009, 3:48 PM
That's exactly how I started out carrying. Now that I have started open carry, I keep the mags in my belt pouch and put my gun in my gun vault while in the car. If its just a short trip and I know I'm not going near a school, I just keep it in my holster.
Yes, it's legal, but having two gun vaults seems unnecessary since, it seems, that having the mags in the same "container" is okay.

Is keeping it in the holster to keep with the letter of the law??
from 12025
"(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
within the meaning of this section.
"

Another thread about open carry mentioned placing it on the passenger seat, not concealed.. I don't really like that idea.