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View Full Version : Serious Effort to Unelect OC Sheriff Hutchens


Jarrod
04-13-2009, 5:38 PM
My friend TJ Johnston of AllSafe Defense Systems (http://www.AllSafeDefense.com/index.htm) has formed a Political Action Committee, SafeOC (http://www.safeoc.org/) to unelect Orange County Sheriff Hutchens due to her unfair handling of CCW's.
Please act on this by (a) making a contribution, (b) joining the mailing list, and (c) spreading the word. To make a contribution, go here, Donations to SafeOC (http://www.safeoc.org/?page_id=54) and to join the mailing list, go to Join SafeOC Mailing list. (http://www.safeoc.org/?page_id=23)

Here is the introductory email from SafeOC regarding their efforts to remove Sheriff Hutchens.

SafeOC Introductory Email

First let me thank you for being involved in this important issue. We have much to do, but with your dedication and support, we can unelect Sheriff Hutchens in 2010.

Our first quest is to raise money. We need a lot of it to unelect a sitting Sheriff. Our goal is to raise $100K by summer and then start shopping for a viable candidate who understands the importance of allowing responsible citizens to exercise their Constitutionally-guaranteed right to carry the means to defend themselves.

After we have identified the best candidate, we'll start some serious fund-raising. It is estimated that we will need $1 million to assure success. That's a lot of fund raising. So here's what we need from you right now:

#1. Contribute what you can.

We have our website up and running: http://www.SafeOC.org. Please log on and make whatever contribution you can to get us started. I commit that every dollar raised will only be used for this purpose. We're not hiring campaign directors or any of that nonsense. We're independent of any campaign and will focus on getting the publicity and media involved in supporting our chosen candidate and taking down Hutchens.

#2. Please visit the website and take a critical look at it. We got it up in a rush so we could start gathering contributions. What would make it better? What can YOU contribute to make it better?

#3. Please start sending E-mails to everyone you think would be concerned about this issue, letting them know about our website and soliciting their contribution. And be sure to fire up every blog you know to get the word out that we are "mad as hell and aren't going to take it any more." We need to make an example out of Sheriff Hutchens and show ALL California citizens what they can do to improve the situation where they live. This is a grassroots effort by gun owners to make a difference. We need EVERYBODY TO MAKE THIS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, EVERYWHERE.

#4. Let me know your ideas. I have volunteered to serve as President of the SafeOC PAC and want to be a channel for your ideas and suggestions. If you have any recommendations on what we can do to be more effective, I need them. Don't be shy. Let me know what you think.

This is democracy in action. But ACTION is the key word. No matter whether you live in Orange County or another state, we can all work together to be effective. Join the fight. We need you and everything you have to offer.

Thank you for your support,

TJ Johnston
President
SafeOC

Jarrod
04-13-2009, 5:41 PM
From the SafeOC website (http://www.safeoc.org/):

Dedicated to Electing a Pro-Freedom Sheriff in Orange County

If you’re reading this, your rights as an American citizen and a resident of Orange County are at stake.

Last year, Sandra Hutchens was appointed Sheriff of Orange County to fill the vacancy created by the resignation of the former Sheriff and to finish out his elected term in office. Despite inheriting a Department plagued by accusations of political favoritism and a poorly run jail system, our new Sheriff immediately targeted law-abiding citizens holding licenses to carry concealed weapons (CCWs).

Since last autumn, Hutchens has embarked on a single-minded campaign to revoke, deny and restrict the number of CCWs in Orange County. She has even drastically changed her Department’s definition of “good cause” in order to make it far more difficult for an ordinary person to obtain a CCW. Hutchens has also decided that a large number of citizens no longer deserve to have a CCW, and is revoking their permits. Many of these citizens have invested hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars and hours of time applying for their CCWs and undergoing the required background checks, training and inspection. Many have held CCWs for years. All applied in good faith, and satisfactorily met all the criteria under the law. Despite these facts, Sheriff Hutchens has aggressively moved to revoke these CCWs.

What is even more astonishing is that there is no evidence that these permits were improperly issued or that the previous Sheriff’s decision to liberalize CCW issuance has made our County less safe. To the contrary, a wealth of studies shows that crime decreases when law-abiding citizens are able to legally carry firearms.

Although the County Board of Supervisors has attempted to persuade Hutchens not to “fix” a problem that does not exist, she refuses to do so. It is clear that the days of liberal CCW issuance in Orange County are over, unless we do something to reverse this trend.

With this goal in mind, six citizens and residents of Orange County, including a leading firearms trainer, a range owner, an attorney, and other professionals, formed the SAFE OC Political Action Committee. Our steadfast belief is that communities are safer when law-abiding, trained citizens are armed.

You may have already heard of other similar, pro-CCW groups, some of which have done an excellent job of exposing Sheriff Hutchens’ contempt for CCW holders at the recent Board of Supervisors meetings. We commend these groups, but ours is different. Instead of focusing on newsgathering, reporting or lawsuits, we are the only Committee devoted exclusively to replacing Sheriff Hutchens in 2010.

Our goal is to spend the next 18 months educating the public and other conservative Orange County political groups about the threat to liberty and safety posed by Hutchens’ actions; build a base of supporters from the larger community dedicated to Hutchens’ ouster; and to find and support an alternative candidate who will make a written pledge to restore liberal CCW issuance if elected.

We are not focused on lawsuits or the pipe-dream of a statewide change in CCW law. Our goal is limited but attainable: Electing a pro-CCW Sheriff in the 2010 election.

We need your help.[/B] Please e-mail us to be added to our mailing list so that we can keep you updated with news and information. Please visit often and check our calendar of events. Most importantly, please consider contributing as much as you are able. Many CCW holders have invested thousands in application fees, training, inspection and equipment to obtain their rights. Won’t you invest an equal amount to preserve them?

Contributions can be made online, or by mail using the linked contribution form. Please be aware that contributions are not tax deductible.

Please feel free to contact us by phone, mail or e-mail. We are a transparent, accessible PAC committed to serving the safety of the County by ensuring that law-abiding citizens have the means to defend themselves. [B]This is our goal – a SAFE OC.

VW*Mike
04-13-2009, 5:44 PM
Done. Lets get her out of OC and back to liberal land where her tactics MAY be considered by the wine tasting, Prius driving bunch.

Mute
04-13-2009, 6:20 PM
TJ is a good guy. Every should try to help if they can.

yellowfin
04-13-2009, 6:25 PM
Hey now, there is absolutely no reason to associate wine tasting with being a moronic hoplophobe and/or anti 2A communist. :mad:

Shotgun Man
04-13-2009, 6:38 PM
Hey now, there is absolutely no reason to associate wine tasting with being a moronic hoplophobe and/or anti 2A communist. :mad:

Yeah, you can take my Chardonnay from my cold, dead hands!

Spelunker
04-13-2009, 6:53 PM
It looked to me like you need to drive a Prius and drink wine to qualify. I was there at the OC Supervisors meeting and I will be there to vote her sorry *** out also.

GunSlut
04-13-2009, 6:55 PM
Serious Effort?

If it was they would have Mike Schroeder, Adam Probosky, John Lewis and several other who wish not to be listed. The 5 different money generating groups of Orange County and the GOP central committee.

That's right they all belong to two other groups doing the same thing. OCCCWS is on of the those two.

yellowfin
04-13-2009, 6:57 PM
How's the Schroeder lawsuit going?

jmlivingston
04-13-2009, 9:06 PM
Some messages were just removed from this thread, you know who you are. Knock off the in-fighting.

John

RomanDad
04-13-2009, 9:09 PM
I received one of these letters today.... And nobody has worked harder to achieve the same goal as the one stated in the letter...


HOWEVER... I was a bit concerned as to how they got my address?

Kestryll
04-13-2009, 9:19 PM
For the record, I've spoken via PM to TJ about this and told him I didn't see any issue with posting information about it.
Frankly and personally I think getting rid of Hutchens as Sheriff is a darn good idea and laudable goal.

However While I personally support the concept of removing Hutchens as Sheriff and the drive to do so, Calguns as an entity has not taken a position one way or the other on this.

This is NOT meant to say anything about SafeOC, I know of NOTHING negative about TJ or his group.

As many can tell you, I have been very cautious about tying the Calguns name to ANY PAC.
In order to do so and properly serve the membership any type of endorsement would have to be thoroughly researched and vetted by not only myself but by both the CGF and legal counsel.

ghostwong
04-13-2009, 9:48 PM
+1 on this! TJ is an excellent guy, He should be sheriff!! TJ is a good guy. Every should try to help if they can.

Jarrod
04-13-2009, 10:15 PM
For the record, I've spoken via PM to TJ about this and told him I didn't see any issue with posting information about it.
Frankly and personally I think getting rid of Hutchens as Sheriff is a darn good idea and laudable goal.

However While I personally support the concept of removing Hutchens as Sheriff and the drive to do so, Calguns as an entity has not taken a position one way or the other on this.

This is NOT meant to say anything about SafeOC, I know of NOTHING negative about TJ or his group.

As many can tell you, I have been very cautious about tying the Calguns name to ANY PAC.

[snip]


I apologize if I have misrepresented the relationship between CalGuns and SafeOC in anyway.

Any such errors are entirely my fault and entirely unintentional.

Jarrod

ontargetrange
04-14-2009, 7:17 AM
What needs to be said here is that there are at least three groups looking to replace the current heavy handed Sheriff -- enough has been done by the LA style of law enforcement.

Let me make it clear that I to am on the Committee and strongly support the goals of the group

No one group can or will take credit for making the change -- it will be ALL of us doing what we can from every direction and by working to inform the other 85% of Orange County that their rights are being trampled --- remember ON AVERAGE less than 15% of any County in California care about firearms and even fewer (1 to 2%) CARE ABOUT A CCW.

I have asked about posting this issue here as a main article, but when thinking about it further I totally agree with Kestryll that we must do it in a totally professional manner. We CAN NOT demand or require that Calguns take a position -- if the owners decide to support something then they are exercising their personal liberty to do so. I commend this board for always doing their best to stay fair to both sides of all arguments.

For those of you that want to help immediately -- we need information -- reliable information that can be PM'd to me about the goings on in the Department -- what is currently happening with the Jails, there is a loud sound of silence about the changes there -- overtime -- training -- you name it -- we need this information as part of the information we will disclose to the public --

Remember that the majority of cities the Sheriffs department interfaces with is south county and the majority of voters reside in north county and DON"T care about our problems -- we have to show them that it does effect them.

I care a great deal about this issue and will be taking some personal risk in doing so. Join us and step out of your comfort zone. If not us then one of the other groups - we all carry the same banner - Change and a safer OC

Kestryll
04-14-2009, 9:25 AM
I apologize if I have misrepresented the relationship between CalGuns and SafeOC in anyway.

Any such errors are entirely my fault and entirely unintentional.

Jarrod

No worries at all! :)

Anyone who has dealt with me on the issue of the Calguns name will tell you I border on obsessive when it comes to checking and vetting before use.
(I think it comes from hanging out with lawyers.. :D ;) )



Personally I support what you're doing and hope like heck you can get Hutchens removed as Sheriff. These people need to be reminded what the 'servant' part of 'Public Servant' means.

If you live in OC you NEED to be involved in this issue one way or another.
Whether through SafeOC or though another group you need to make your voice heard and STOP elected official from trampling our rights.
As Calguns has shown we are more effective when we work together and focus on one message and all speak as one.

If you live there and don't get involved you're showing people like Hutchens that she is right, that we don't care enough to stand up to them and there is NO COST for trampling our rights.
I don't buy that and neither should you.

GuyW
04-14-2009, 10:15 AM
1. Is there a legal maximum amount that an individual can contribute?

2. Can businesses and corporations contribute?

3. Individuals who are worried about being identified as opposing (whomever), can donate up to $99 ("less than $100") and NOT be identified in the mandatory legal reporting of donors, yes?

.

xLusi0n
04-14-2009, 11:33 AM
She was never elected, but appointed. Please change title.

yellowfin
04-14-2009, 11:35 AM
She was never elected, but appointed. Please change title. Selected not elected, eh? :D

IGOTDIRT4U
04-14-2009, 11:48 AM
Will CG give equal access to the forum to the other two main PAC's? The whole of this thread does appear to serve the sole production of one PAC's efforts. As much as I applaud anyone picking up and helping to carry the mantle of an effort to unthrone Hutchens, will equal space be given here for a statement by the other two PAC's?

G30 Steve
04-14-2009, 12:38 PM
I received one of these letters today.... And nobody has worked harder to achieve the same goal as the one stated in the letter...


HOWEVER... I was a bit concerned as to how they got my address?No problem with dumping Hutchens ASAP but I share the same concern of how my full name and home address was obtained for their mailing list.

Jarrod
04-14-2009, 12:47 PM
[snip]

3. Individuals who are worried about being identified as opposing (whomever), can donate up to $99 ("less than $100") and NOT be identified in the mandatory legal reporting of donors, yes?

.

Is it legal to just repeatedly mail anonymous money order donations that are less than $100?

I think I alread know the answer to this, but want to ask anyway.

Jarrod
04-14-2009, 12:54 PM
Dear IGOTDIRT4U:

Will CG give equal access to the forum to the other two main PAC's? The whole of this thread does appear to serve the sole production of one PAC's efforts. As much as I applaud anyone picking up and helping to carry the mantle of an effort to unthrone Hutchens, will equal space be given here for a statement by the other two PAC's?

I am not an official representative of SafeOC (or CalGuns, of course). When I started this thread, I did it merely as a zealous supporter who represents only himself.

I apologize if I gave the impression that: (a) the effort to remove Sheriff Hutchens is solely the effort of SafeOC, or (b) if I accidentally misrepresented the relationship between CalGuns and SafeOC.

Any errors in that regard are unintentional and entirely my fault.

ontargetrange
04-14-2009, 1:01 PM
No problem with dumping Hutchens ASAP but I share the same concern of how my full name and home address was obtained for their mailing list.

One simply asks for it from the Sheriff -- remember when you filled out the forms there was a statement alerting you to the freedom of information act and how your name could be asked for and required to be given out --

We thought that those with CCW's would be the most interested in supporting this effort first, since they have the most invested in the process.

the same set of tools used to catch Iron Mike texting abusive remarks

GuyW
04-14-2009, 1:12 PM
Is it legal to just repeatedly mail anonymous money order donations that are less than $100?



Legal? Yes, you won't be arrested....but the PAC would undoubtedly have to turn the MOs over to the state (or something similar).

To be more clear, my understanding is that a contributor has to identify themself along with the contribution, but if the contribution is less than $100, the contributor's ID is not required to be reported to the state (and public).

G30 Steve
04-14-2009, 1:14 PM
One simply asks for it from the Sheriff -- remember when you filled out the forms there was a statement alerting you to the freedom of information act and how your name could be asked for and required to be given out --

We thought that those with CCW's would be the most interested in supporting this effort first, since they have the most invested in the process.

the same set of tools used to catch Iron Mike texting abusive remarks
Thanks for your honesty. It's great to know the appointed Sheriff and her staff provide our home addresses to all who request it.

What if our good cause was such that furnishing that information may further endanger our lives? I guess it don't matter much to her. :mad:

Kestryll
04-14-2009, 1:20 PM
Will CG give equal access to the forum to the other two main PAC's? The whole of this thread does appear to serve the sole production of one PAC's efforts. As much as I applaud anyone picking up and helping to carry the mantle of an effort to unthrone Hutchens, will equal space be given here for a statement by the other two PAC's?

Why wouldn't they be allowed to post here?
As long as they follow the same rules you are required to they can post here too.

DDT
04-14-2009, 1:20 PM
Is it legal to just repeatedly mail anonymous money order donations that are less than $100?

I think I alread know the answer to this, but want to ask anyway.

You really shouldn't do that. You should provide your name with any money orders you send in. Have a nice Day Mr. Smith.

RomanDad
04-14-2009, 1:33 PM
One simply asks for it from the Sheriff -- remember when you filled out the forms there was a statement alerting you to the freedom of information act and how your name could be asked for and required to be given out --



Sorry..... But Ive been extremely involved in OCCCWS's PRA efforts with OCSD....

We have filed MULTIPLE requests for PRAs for the list of Orange County CCW holder's addresses and MULTIPLE follow ups and have been denied addresses every time.

The BEST the Orange County Sheriff will provide is a list of NAMES, OCCUPATIONS and CITIES and they have been EXTREMELY reluctant to even provide those, going so far as to RANDOMIZE the CITY column from the other two.

So you're saying that she denied six months of requests from us including threats of litigation, and then just handed the list over WITH addresses to you with no questions asked?

Sorry- Doesnt pass the smell test.... So I ask again.

How did you come up with the address list?



the same set of tools used to catch Iron Mike texting abusive remarks

If youre implying that your organization had ANYTHING to do with the release of the Mike Hillman text messages, again, THAT is not true. I was intimately involved with THAT PRA as well, starting from the instant the messages were typed, all the way until the moment they were released to the register.

CHS
04-14-2009, 1:33 PM
She was never elected, but appointed. Please change title.

I was about to say, how do you unelect someone who was never elected in the first place?

Is it even possible to recall someone who was never elected?

Jarrod
04-14-2009, 1:41 PM
I was about to say, how do you unelect someone who was never elected in the first place?

Is it even possible to recall someone who was never elected?

From what the SafeOC website says, my understanding is that she will be up for re-election in 2010, and the efforts to replace her are geared towards electing a different sheriff.

GunSlut
04-14-2009, 2:20 PM
One simply asks for it from the Sheriff -- remember when you filled out the forms there was a statement alerting you to the freedom of information act and how your name could be asked for and required to be given out --

We thought that those with CCW's would be the most interested in supporting this effort first, since they have the most invested in the process.

the same set of tools used to catch Iron Mike texting abusive remarks

According to Asst Sheriff Anderson, Capt. JR Wilson, Capt. Davis Nighswonger and Melissa Soto. They never received a PRA for this information and would never release it. Names and random zip codes only!

OrangeCountyCCW
04-14-2009, 4:48 PM
GunS, you pose a fair question but it has a simple answer. The PRA request to the OCSD disclosed names but not addresses. The founders of SAFE OC spent many long hours toiling to look up addresses corresponding to those names from public sources, such as phone books and whitepages.com.

I hope this addresses your concern adequately.

ZUMNDAD
04-14-2009, 4:55 PM
I have direct contacts on the board of directors for SafeOC.org and was told the following by one of their directors:

"A PRA was filed with the OCSD requesting the names and addresses of all current CCW permit holders. A list of NAMES ONLY was provided in response. No zip codes, no addresses - just a list of names. In most cases middle names or initials were provided. The internet and a ton of time invested by individuals devoted to this cause rooted out the addresses using a very common tool - whitepages.com.

Nothing else has ever been requested from the OCSD by SafeOC.org. We are not alleging in any way, shape or form, that we had or have anything to do with any other PRA/FOA submission made by any other group or individual person."

I have had interraction with these folks through the email addresses provided directly on their web site under the "Leadership" link in the right hand menu. They also have a "Contact Us" link provided just above it.

I,too, have seen their letter as I am on the CCW list. I have made a donation that will, hopefully, help usher in a new Sheriff to OC in 2010. No other organization has sent me any letters asking for support or donations. Have you received any?

RomanDad
04-14-2009, 5:37 PM
I have direct contacts on the board of directors for SafeOC.org and was told the following by one of their directors:

"A PRA was filed with the OCSD requesting the names and addresses of all current CCW permit holders. A list of NAMES ONLY was provided in response. No zip codes, no addresses - just a list of names. In most cases middle names or initials were provided. The internet and a ton of time invested by individuals devoted to this cause rooted out the addresses using a very common tool - whitepages.com.



Fair enough.

We've also been able to do similar things, but have made a conscious decision NOT to use that information or disclose it in any way, and instead to respect people's privacy. The responses to PRAs involving names of CCWrs were treated with the respect for privacy we understand many of our fellow CCW holders desire, and we've kept strict lids on who accessed the information. I would respectfully request, regardless of how you USE the information in the future, that you do put such policies into effect regarding who has access to that list.



Nothing else has ever been requested from the OCSD by SafeOC.org. We are not alleging in any way, shape or form, that we had or have anything to do with any other PRA/FOA submission made by any other group or individual person."[/I][/B]



Thank you for that clarification.


I,too, have seen their letter as I am on the CCW list. I have made a donation that will, hopefully, help usher in a new Sheriff to OC in 2010. No other organization has sent me any letters asking for support or donations. Have you received any?
I have been asked to donate money to other organizations on this issue, and I have in fact donated to them. However those requests were made by people who know me personally rather than in mass mailings from strangers, which caused me (and others) a sudden flash of panic regarding who had our addresses and how they were obtained.

There has been no lack of publicity on this manner and the other organization have capitalized on that publicity in order to garner support, rather than resorting to cold calling people who are naturally protective of their privacy.

OrangeCountyCCW
04-14-2009, 5:51 PM
RomansDad, thank you for the suggestion about a policy and it certainly is accessible only to the founders of the PAC.

I can understand the initial curiosity about "how did they get my address!" but unless someone has taken the time to remove themselves from the phone book and/or whitepages.com, addresses are public information.

I don't know who you're referring to when you say "we've also been able to do similar things but have made a conscious decision NOT to use the information," but all the political groups I belong to regularly do mass mailings. Indeed, I often notice that I receive mail and fundraising letters from groups I don't belong to, but which are similar in bent or scope to ones I do. Your use of the term "cold calling" is not accurate as no one was "called."

SAFE OC is a political action committee, run by individuals with political experience. This is how things are done. We expect it will bear much fruit.

IAmASensFan
04-14-2009, 6:49 PM
GunS, you pose a fair question but it has a simple answer. The PRA request to the OCSD disclosed names but not addresses. The founders of SAFE OC spent many long hours toiling to look up addresses corresponding to those names from public sources, such as phone books and whitepages.com.

I hope this addresses your concern adequately.

And the On Target membership list, right?

I don't care, personally, but why lie about it?

Is that the way to do this business?

RomanDad
04-14-2009, 8:49 PM
RomansDad, thank you for the suggestion about a policy and it certainly is accessible only to the founders of the PAC.

I can understand the initial curiosity about "how did they get my address!" but unless someone has taken the time to remove themselves from the phone book and/or whitepages.com, addresses are public information.

I don't know who you're referring to when you say "we've also been able to do similar things but have made a conscious decision NOT to use the information," but all the political groups I belong to regularly do mass mailings. Indeed, I often notice that I receive mail and fundraising letters from groups I don't belong to, but which are similar in bent or scope to ones I do. Your use of the term "cold calling" is not accurate as no one was "called."

SAFE OC is a political action committee, run by individuals with political experience. This is how things are done. We expect it will bear much fruit.

I can guarantee, I have more political experience myself than EVERYBODY working for you combined, and that's NOT how things get done. My experience is 100% opposite. In fact, its a surefire way to piss people off.... If I make an overture to involve myself with your organization, that's one thing. When I get mail from the NRA, I understand.... I joined THEM... I know who the hell they are... Same goes for the political party I belong to.... But when I get mail from a bunch of johnny come latelys Ive never heard of before, it goes right into the crosscutter.... For you to SPAM complete strangers because we haven't jumped through the hoops of removing ourselves from WHITEPAGES.COM (are you kidding me?) that somehow means I WANT mail from you, is a serious stretch....

You wont be getting any money from me based on those tactics alone.


And if, as I have heard, there is a potential Candidate behind this using his resources as a private investigator to do this, he is is just as creepy as Hutchens... Maybe more so.... At least I have voluntarily given her my address.

And the On Target membership list, right?

I don't care, personally, but why lie about it?

Is that the way to do this business?


I've never stepped foot in OnTarget.... So that's not the source.... And I've never involved myself IN ANYTHING that would indicate I want SPAM and junk mail from this group.

So far, this group has said they had nothing to do with any other PRAs... And basically all you've done is sent out a letter to a bunch of strangers who didnt ask for it, asking them for money? Do I have that right? And people should give you money WHY? Whats the plan? You want to "unelect" Hutchens... HOW do you plan to do that? Other groups have actually DONE "stuff".... Organized meetings.... Gotten volumes of local, and even NATIONAL press coverage.... Made some pretty compelling ads.... Done MULTIPLE PRAs that have uncovered everything from the Mike Hillman Emails to the Spying on Supervisors... Undermined her support with the Orange County Republican Party.... In other words, MADE THE SHERIFF VULNERABLE POLITICALLY. What have you done as an offer of proof that you have clue one as to what to do with money if we send you some? You can look up addresses on Whitepages.com? What do you plan to do with the hundreds of thousands of dollars you're asking for??? Buy more stamps with it?

I don't mean to seem hypercritical, however, YOU ARE THE ONES ASKING ME FOR MONEY.... So I think I have a right to know why I should send it to YOU as opposed to others who have actually ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING?

CHS
04-14-2009, 9:25 PM
OK, I have to ask because it no longer looks it, but...


Is this a serious thread about drumming up support for somehow booting Hutchens, or is this a thread to b*tch, moan, and complain about someone elses fund-raising tactics?

IAmASensFan
04-14-2009, 9:30 PM
I can guarantee, I have more political experience myself than EVERYBODY working for you combined, and that's NOT how things get done. My experience is 100% opposite. In fact, its a surefire way to piss people off.... If I make an overture to involve myself with your organization, that's one thing. When I get mail from the NRA, I understand.... I joined THEM... I know who the hell they are... Same goes for the political party I belong to.... But when I get mail from a bunch of johnny come latelys Ive never heard of before, it goes right into the crosscutter.... For you to SPAM complete strangers because we haven't jumped through the hoops of removing ourselves from WHITEPAGES.COM (are you kidding me?) that somehow means I WANT mail from you, is a serious stretch....

You wont be getting any money from me based on those tactics alone.


And if, as I have heard, there is a potential Candidate behind this using his resources as a private investigator to do this, he is is just as creepy as Hutchens... Maybe more so.... At least I have voluntarily given her my address.




I've never stepped foot in OnTarget.... So that's not the source.... And I've never involved myself IN ANYTHING that would indicate I want SPAM and junk mail from this group.

So far, this group has said they had nothing to do with any other PRAs... And basically all you've done is sent out a letter to a bunch of strangers who didnt ask for it, asking them for money? Do I have that right? And people should give you money WHY? Whats the plan? You want to "unelect" Hutchens... HOW do you plan to do that? Other groups have actually DONE "stuff".... Organized meetings.... Gotten volumes of local, and even NATIONAL press coverage.... Made some pretty compelling ads.... Done MULTIPLE PRAs that have uncovered everything from the Mike Hillman Emails to the Spying on Supervisors... Undermined her support with the Orange County Republican Party.... In other words, MADE THE SHERIFF VULNERABLE POLITICALLY. What have you done as an offer of proof that you have clue one as to what to do with money if we send you some? You can look up addresses on Whitepages.com? What do you plan to do with the hundreds of thousands of dollars you're asking for??? Buy more stamps with it?

I don't mean to seem hypercritical, however, YOU ARE THE ONES ASKING ME FOR MONEY.... So I think I have a right to know why I should send it to YOU as opposed to others who have actually ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING?

When I signed up for my membership a couple years ago, I kind of expected some sort of spam. When I said "I don't care" it came across as I don't care about getting spam. Since I am not a member anymore, I'd rather not, but I've come to expect that I will continue to get it.

But please, don't make it sound like I am one of them...you know I'm not ;)

RomanDad
04-14-2009, 9:54 PM
OK, I have to ask because it no longer looks it, but...


Is this a serious thread about drumming up support for somehow booting Hutchens, or is this a thread to b*tch, moan, and complain about someone elses fund-raising tactics?

Hey, I'm all about getting rid of her.... AS SOON AS LEGALLY POSSIBLE..... And to that end, the more the merrier...

However I REALLY don't like getting mail from people I DON'T know asking me for money, and I know a LOT of other CCW holders will be even MORE suspicious and turned off by how their addresses were obtained.

ANYBODY who has spent ANY time around this subset of people (California CCW holders) understands, a lot of us take our PRIVACY VERY SERIOUSLY. The reasons for that should be pretty obvious. There are going to be a LOT of folks who feel a line was crossed here and they aren't going to be able to just run off to Calguns to find out how their addresses got out.

Doheny
04-14-2009, 10:01 PM
Is this really mostly about the CalCCW.com people feeling someone's moving in on their territory?

GunSlut
04-14-2009, 10:06 PM
.
I can understand the initial curiosity about "how did they get my address!" but unless someone has taken the time to remove themselves from the phone book and/or whitepages.com, addresses are public information.




And I have done just that. Yet it show up at my home address. When I called to complain today with OCSD, I was not the first. Judges and Reserve Deputies have called in and complained too.

RomanDad
04-14-2009, 10:15 PM
Is this really mostly about the CalCCW.com people feeling someone's moving in on their territory?

No... Its really not.... Ive actually been pretty outspoken on CALCCW, that its a BIG tent and theres plenty of room for others to kick her in the political groin too....

Nope... This is the culmination of 30 hours or so since I got the letter.... I was MILDLY pissed when I first got it for the reasons stated above. Enough so that I DID immediately send the thing through the shredder, which I later regretted.... (if only to have the letter so I could tell others about it).

But that was how insulted I was that I was being asked to give a thousand bucks (thats the language that stuck with me.... Something about Id spend it on my CCW anyway, so just send it to them- I found it all a bit pushy) to people I DONT KNOW.... That MILD "pissedness" has grown.... I dont like that a group I have no association with is doing PRAs and USING that info to solicit money from me... And I understand better than most that its "public information", but I still dont appreciate it being used in this way and yeah, I kindof feel like my privacy has been invaded by a group who I should feel in solidarity with.... I know Im not the only one who feels this way....

The authors can take this for what its worth, but I dont think theyve gotten off to a real good start, and I suspect they may have alienated a BUNCH of the people they were trying to reach.

Doheny
04-14-2009, 10:18 PM
$1000? WTF?

Their tactics do sound rather pushy...thanks for clearing that up.

GunSlut
04-14-2009, 10:41 PM
Is this really mostly about the CalCCW.com people feeling someone's moving in on their territory?

It's more about www.OCCWS.com than moving in.

If you look at the articles and links, the first one (letter to the editor) is written by the treasure of the OCCCWS group. The second link is Allan's article about the GOP. He mentions Rico and Bill (again) from OCCCWS.

Great advertising for them and their group.

DDT
04-14-2009, 10:51 PM
I don't understand the outrage. I have been contacted numerous times by people who have acquired my name and address through sources that I never intended to become public. I rarely respond but it is certainly not illegal or immoral to to assume that people who have a CCW would be interested in supporting the cause of kicking the wicked witch of the west out of office.

If you're already hooked up with another organization that is doing the same toss the beg letter.

If you actually donate to a couple of campaigns and/or charities you quickly find out that you get requests from affiliated or similar organizations all the time.

How can you complain that someone did a PRAR to get your information when you did EXACTLY the same thing to get their information? You may or may not like their tactics at fund raising or the wording they use in their plead letter but to "feel like my privacy has been invaded" sounds disingenuous at best.

N6ATF
04-14-2009, 11:47 PM
OK, I have to ask because it no longer looks it, but...


Is this a serious thread about drumming up support for somehow booting Hutchens, or is this a thread to b*tch, moan, and complain about someone elses fund-raising tactics?

The latter, it seems.

http://www.morningstar.nildram.co.uk/ibtl.jpg

rynando
04-15-2009, 1:37 AM
If you're already hooked up with another organization that is doing the same toss the beg letter.

They are core-members of the other organization that is "doing the same."

R

cousinkix1953
04-15-2009, 2:02 AM
If Orange county residents want to get rid of this corrupt sheriff, be my guest. There are other reasons besides carrying a concealed weapon. Another group has accused Hutchens of spying on the board of supervisors. Chris Norby's office confirmed this report to me in a private e-mail. It sounds like you have the Nazi Gestapo in the sheriff's office.

A third website goes into detail about Orange county's secret police departments using scrambled radios 24/7/365. Everything has been a big secret, since not long after a bigshot LEO's kid got busted for drug dealing. Nobody knows what's going on in Orange county unless frau Hutchens wants it in dur newspaper and on the dur TV.

Not even the G-men who audit your C&R books are this paranoid about the public hearing their activities...

G30 Steve
04-15-2009, 7:08 AM
Is this really mostly about the CalCCW.com people feeling someone's moving in on their territory?I don't think so. It's not about which PAC or Website can claim territorial rights. From my perspective its a matter of respect, integrity and ethics.

I think we all feel violated when our privacy is invaded by solicitors. Think about the dinner time phone calls we all seem to get especially at election time and the bad taste that leaves. I have a rule about solicitors and salesmen. If I don't make the initiating call, I don't want or need what they have to sell.

Most CCW holders want their identities and home addresses protected. I realize the Sheriff has to respond to PRAs but the department does not provide addresses. The reason is simple. People who have obtained CCWs in Orange County have done so because they can substantiate they are more at risk to criminal attack than the general public. Some of us have our home address protected by penal code or court order. Call me overly cautious but I'm very concerned about who knows my address, why they have it and most of all how well they will protect it.

Safe OC, if you are listening, please respect my privacy and remove me from your mailing list.

Rob_G
04-15-2009, 7:46 AM
It's obvious that OCCCWS will be supporting someone besides Hutchens in 2010, they are doing some great groundwork to lay the foundation to get her unelected. Just running a pro CCW platform probably isn't enough to unseat a sitting Sheriff.

Hopefully both groups will be supporting the same candidate and not splitting our vote.

Did any of the Safe OC guys speak at the BOS meetings?

IGOTDIRT4U
04-15-2009, 9:06 AM
Is this really mostly about the CalCCW.com people feeling someone's moving in on their territory?

CalCCW.com is not a PAC, so what's your point? To stir the "Pot o' Trouble"?

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 9:32 AM
These other PAC's are obviously formed for a reason to promote their own candidate... However asking me for money without telling me who I am supporting is pretty lame. The money you donate will go for one candidate they want as Sheriff. Could very well be the front of the candidate himself. Once you tell me who you are supporting and why... Maybe we can talk number's, but I think these people are a little pre-mature. Heck how do we even know their candidate will be CCW friendly if we don't know who he/she is?

DDT
04-15-2009, 10:18 AM
These other PAC's are obviously formed for a reason to promote their own candidate... However asking me for money without telling me who I am supporting is pretty lame. The money you donate will go for one candidate they want as Sheriff. Could very well be the front of the candidate himself. Once you tell me who you are supporting and why... Maybe we can talk number's, but I think these people are a little pre-mature. Heck how do we even know their candidate will be CCW friendly if we don't know who he/she is?

that is rarely how it is done. NRA, ACLU etc. all request money for causes not for a specific candidate.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-15-2009, 10:28 AM
that is rarely how it is done. NRA, ACLU etc. all request money for causes not for a specific candidate.

Unfortunately that is the truth, but in this case it would be nice if the PAC had presented the public with more info on who they are supporting for the new Sheriff candidate.

GuyW
04-15-2009, 10:56 AM
Unfortunately that is the truth, but in this case it would be nice if the PAC had presented the public with more info on who they are supporting for the new Sheriff candidate.

I don't know anything about this PAC, but its conceivable that a PAC could spring up who's sole goal is "Anybody but Hutchens".
.

RomanDad
04-15-2009, 11:23 AM
that is rarely how it is done. NRA, ACLU etc. all request money for causes not for a specific candidate.

Right... But those are LONG STANDING, WELL KNOWN organizations with a history and a track record.... When I give money to the NRA (or the ACLU for that matter) I know what its going to be used for.... As opposed to just sending money to "Bob's Pac" because some guy named Bob sent me a letter and asked for it.


Its like one of those Nigerian 419 emails.

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Right... But those are LONG STANDING, WELL KNOWN organizations with a history and a track record.... When I give money to the NRA (or the ACLU for that matter) I know what its going to be used for.... As opposed to just sending money to "Bob's Pac" because some guy named Bob sent me a letter and asked for it.


Its like one of those Nigerian 419 emails.

I think nigerian 419 is a little much... RomanDad I think you need to settle down. This is a free country and it might be useful for you to see if you can somehow combine your efforts instead of bring them down. This is not calccw where you get booted for having a different opinion, so be part of the solution. If they took the time to look everyone up and mail them something then that shows they are serious about making a difference. They sound reasonable, but we need more info on them and exactly who they will be promoting.

WeThePeople
04-15-2009, 12:47 PM
Instead of waiting for 2010, why not sue the OC Board of Supervisors now? They selected her after their legal guy said it was okay to not have an election.

As I've said before, the OCBOS might not even contest the lawsuit. In that case, she's thrown out NOW!

Maybe I'm invisible to everyone here.

GuyW
04-15-2009, 1:04 PM
Instead of waiting for 2010, why not sue the OC Board of Supervisors now? They selected her after their legal guy said it was okay to not have an election.

As I've said before, the OCBOS might not even contest the lawsuit. In that case, she's thrown out NOW!

Maybe I'm invisible to everyone here.

Loser case.

The Board has the discretion to make the decision, so basically the decision is not subject to Court action.

RomanDad
04-15-2009, 1:10 PM
I think nigerian 419 is a little much... RomanDad I think you need to settle down. This is a free country and it might be useful for you to see if you can somehow combine your efforts instead of bring them down. This is not calccw where you get booted for having a different opinion, so be part of the solution. If they took the time to look everyone up and mail them something then that shows they are serious about making a difference. They sound reasonable, but we need more info on them and exactly who they will be promoting.
Do YOU know who these people are???? Because I DONT... People are talking about "On Target." I dont even know what On Target IS....Let alone the people who run it... To me getting a letter from these people is no different than getting a letter from "Prime Minister Obo Gimbaro".

WeThePeople
04-15-2009, 1:15 PM
Loser case.

The Board has the discretion to make the decision, so basically the decision is not subject to Court action.

Thanks for responding.

How certain are you? The Board spent many days researching their power to appoint her. As I recall, no one opposed the decision.

ontargetrange
04-15-2009, 1:29 PM
Thanks for your honesty. It's great to know the appointed Sheriff and her staff provide our home addresses to all who request it.

What if our good cause was such that furnishing that information may further endanger our lives? I guess it don't matter much to her. :mad:

I have been off doing some work and only just got back to this --- I need to make it clear -- someone may have already said this -- that while the names are provided to just about anyone who asks -- the addresses are not -- but with lots of internet sluthing across many public sites one can come up some surprising amount of data on just about anyone -- it just takes a little time --

How many times have we heard about our private information being just "out there" -- it is true.

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 1:34 PM
Gregg - Who are you and SafeOC supporting for Sheriff? I hear rumors of Walters?

ontargetrange
04-15-2009, 1:34 PM
And the On Target membership list, right?

I don't care, personally, but why lie about it?

Is that the way to do this business?

Since I own the "list" I can say quite clearly it has not been used --- thought about it, but have not put it into play --- I have had better success just talking to people at the counter and discussing it with them one on one ---

Doheny
04-15-2009, 1:45 PM
I'm hurt I didn't get a letter. I'm in OC, have a CCW and belong to On Target.

:(

G30 Steve
04-15-2009, 1:46 PM
Since I own the "list" I can say quite clearly it has not been used --- thought about it, but have not put it into play --- I have had better success just talking to people at the counter and discussing it with them one on one ---I think that's a much less offensive and intrusive solution.
Many of us do not want to be solicited like we were in your mailer.

ontargetrange
04-15-2009, 1:51 PM
I'm hurt I didn't get a letter. I'm in OC, have a CCW and belong to On Target.

:(

Make that a double DRAT --- stop by and talk with me --- we can discuss this in detail if you want --- even get you a copy of the letter --

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 1:53 PM
I think that's a much less offensive and intrusive solution.
Many of us do not want to be solicited like we were in your mailer.

They gave you a free stamp! Do you complain about all your other junk mail. I wish most of my mail would include free stamps! I think people are over-reacting to this. Relax...

DDT
04-15-2009, 1:58 PM
I don't think so. It's not about which PAC or Website can claim territorial rights. From my perspective its a matter of respect, integrity and ethics.


Safe OC, if you are listening, please respect my privacy and remove me from your mailing list.

Are you involved with one of the other CCW organizations or PACs?

ontargetrange
04-15-2009, 2:00 PM
Do YOU know who these people are???? Because I DONT... People are talking about "On Target." I dont even know what On Target IS....Let alone the people who run it... To me getting a letter from these people is no different than getting a letter from "Prime Minister Obo Gimbaro".

A few pages back you stated you knew about On-Target but had never been there -- now you have lost us -- I am somewhat hurt --- I have spent quite a bit if time to make sure that On-Target represents a quality location for Shooters -- expanded classes for Women and Youth groups -- all this to change what was once a typical dark gun nut location into a family friendly range.

I have to ask if you have been so involved with OC and the shooting industry why you haven't stopped by to talk? I am always open for input about what we might be able to do to increase genral awareness of the good and great parts of shooting.

Rather than continue with this impersonal approach I would like to invite you and perhaps others to meet and discuss this further - you can meet me and some of the other concerned citizens of OC -- PM me and we can make it happen

GMONEY
04-15-2009, 2:03 PM
A few pages back you stated you knew about On-Target but had never been there -- now you have lost us -- I am somewhat hurt --- I have spent quite a bit if time to make sure that On-Target represents a quality location for Shooters -- expanded classes for Women and Youth groups -- all this to change what was once a typical dark gun nut location into a family friendly range.

I have to ask if you have been so involved with OC and the shooting industry why you haven't stopped by to talk? I am always open for input about what we might be able to do to increase genral awareness of the good and great parts of shooting.

Rather than continue with this impersonal approach I would like to invite you and perhaps others to meet and discuss this further - you can meet me and some of the other concerned citizens of OC -- PM me and we can make it happen

Gregg I believe some of the calccw crowd already have a biased against you because of some incident with a CCW trainer at your facility. I think it's unfair as some of them follow like sheep...

ontargetrange
04-15-2009, 2:13 PM
Gregg I believe some of the calccw crowd already have a biased against you because of some incident with a CCW trainer at your facility. I think it's unfair as some of them follow like sheep...

Thank You ---- I am very proud of the printout I have from Calccw where just the act of registering - since I use my real ID - caused me to be BANNED FOR LIFE -- I was so hurt ----

IGOTDIRT4U
04-15-2009, 3:08 PM
I think nigerian 419 is a little much... RomanDad I think you need to settle down. This is a free country and it might be useful for you to see if you can somehow combine your efforts instead of bring them down. This is not calccw where you get booted for having a different opinion, so be part of the solution. If they took the time to look everyone up and mail them something then that shows they are serious about making a difference. They sound reasonable, but we need more info on them and exactly who they will be promoting.

Bashing other forum sites is not recommended, unless you want me to tell everyone the truth. I suggest you keep your dogs out of this fight.

Kestryll
04-15-2009, 3:27 PM
Bashing other forum sites is not recommended, unless you want me to tell everyone the truth. I suggest you keep your dogs out of this fight.

Good advice, because threats like that will get YOU bounced out of here pretty damn fast.

G30 Steve
04-15-2009, 3:31 PM
Are you involved with one of the other CCW organizations or PACs?Not sure what you mean by "involved". I support Ordinary California Citizens Concerned With Safety. I post on several CCW and gun forums including CalCCW. I support the NRA, CRPOA and other pro-RKBA causes.
Why do you ask? You're not with the DHS are you?:)

Kestryll
04-15-2009, 3:31 PM
Here's a thought take all this crap to PMs or if it's CalCCW related take it there!

RomanDad
04-15-2009, 3:36 PM
A few pages back you stated you knew about On-Target but had never been there --

You want to point that out??? Because I don't think I could have been more specific in my use of the word "STRANGERS".


Just to clarify... I've never heard of OnTarget before, and to the best of my knowledge, I've never been there. I've certainly never been a MEMBER as was implied by somebody.




I have to ask if you have been so involved with OC and the shooting industry why you haven't stopped by to talk?

Perhaps its because I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE OR WHERE YOU'RE LOCATED???


Again, I have ZERO opposition to other people trying to defeat Sheriff Hutchens Politically. My concern (which I have now heard is shared by others as well) is specifically with the manner my information was gathered and how it was used.

G30 Steve
04-15-2009, 3:53 PM
They gave you a free stamp! Do you complain about all your other junk mail. I wish most of my mail would include free stamps! I think people are over-reacting to this. Relax...
Did you really mean to refer to the Safe OC mailer as "junk mail"? Okay, I will treat it as such and not feel guilty or violated.
Thanks for the stamp and the free advice.
See, I am relaxed.
:beatdeadhorse5:

DDT
04-15-2009, 4:54 PM
Not sure what you mean by "involved". I support Ordinary California Citizens Concerned With Safety. I post on several CCW and gun forums including CalCCW. I support the NRA, CRPOA and other pro-RKBA causes.
Why do you ask? You're not with the DHS are you?:)

By involved I mean specifically aiding in an effort to defeat Hutchens. That means helping create fliers, making calls, participating in strategy threads, donating money, goods or your time.

Python2
04-15-2009, 5:00 PM
Wow, this thread is sure turning into something else. I could just imagine the glee on Hutchens face if she is reading this thread. We want to get rid of her dont we? Sorry, I just cant help keeping my keyboard to shut up.

KylaGWolf
04-15-2009, 7:43 PM
Done. Lets get her out of OC and back to liberal land where her tactics MAY be considered by the wine tasting, Prius driving bunch.

Eh wait I drink wine I would love to have a Prius due to the fact its cheap on gas. Doesn't make me a bad person. Maybe you would be better wishing her to outer Siberia or North Korea or Iran?

Jarrod
04-16-2009, 12:39 AM
I have been reading this thread since I started it a few days ago.

I am not going to touch the issue of the mailing list and privacy one way or the other. (I have a standing policy of not walking into crossfire, regardless of who is right.:eek:)

However, it seems this thread has drifted quite far away from working together to unseat Sheriff Hutchens for a pro-CCW sheriff. Regardless of the other issues discussed in this thread, certainly this is one goal we all share?

How many people here plan on helping out SafeOC (http://www.safeoc.org) in some manner, either through joining the emailing list, spreading the word, or making donations?

TheBundo
04-16-2009, 2:43 AM
This was probably covered, but were the surrender or be revoked letters sent out by some form of certified mail?

cousinkix1953
04-16-2009, 2:49 AM
Orange county does not recognize Proposition 215 either. F--- the state-wide law. A Santa Cruz based medical marijuana activist was arrested at John Wayne Airport, even though she had her patient's card issued by the county government, as required by the law.

You can ask Valerie Corral of WAM (Wo/mans alliance for Medical Marijuana) about her rude awakening in Orange county.

I'll bet that these sick people will join your fight against that crooked sheriff too. They don't like being harassed either...

rynando
04-16-2009, 3:05 AM
Wow, this thread is sure turning into something else. I could just imagine the glee on Hutchens face if she is reading this thread. We want to get rid of her dont we? Sorry, I just cant help keeping my keyboard to shut up.

They can't help themselves.

R

GMONEY
04-16-2009, 5:10 AM
I have been reading this thread since I started it a few days ago.

I am not going to touch the issue of the mailing list and privacy one way or the other. (I have a standing policy of not walking into crossfire, regardless of who is right.:eek:)

However, it seems this thread has drifted quite far away from working together to unseat Sheriff Hutchens for a pro-CCW sheriff. Regardless of the other issues discussed in this thread, certainly this is one goal we all share?

How many people here plan on helping out SafeOC (http://www.safeoc.org) in some manner, either through joining the emailing list, spreading the word, or making donations?

I think I speak for a few of us here, but we need more information from you guys... Who will you be supporting for Sheriff and why? If you can't answer that question then you won't get a dime from me. I have a hunch you already have a candidate in mind, but for some reason won't reveal it yet...

OrangeCountyCCW
04-16-2009, 7:25 AM
There is so much misinformation here I don't even know where to begin to correct it all. As a theologian friend of mine says, "it makes the heart sad" to see an immediate rush to negativity, accusations, and unfounded insinuations -- all coupled with secretive, cloak-and-dagger suggestions that one group has "inside knowledge" and all the answers.

GMONEY, SAFE OC is an unconnected PAC. That means it is not connected with or controlled by any candidate for Sheriff. This is verifiable by our publicly filed documents. (I might add an aside that the founders of SAFE OC have hired an outside, independent treasurer: Betty Presley & Associates. This firm is the treasurer for most Orange County political organizations and campaigns, and ensures that all regulatory and reporting requirements are met.)

We are a long way away from the next Sheriff election and to my knowledge, no candidate has officially stepped forward to challenge Hutchens. Our purpose statement is clear both on our website and in our mailer: we are dedicated to electing a pro-CCW Sheriff in Orange County.

What that means in the near term is exactly what we say: Our goal is to spend the next 18 months educating the public and other conservative Orange County political groups about the threat to liberty and safety posed by Hutchens’ actions; build a base of supporters from the larger community dedicated to Hutchens’ ouster; and to find and support an alternative candidate who will make a written pledge to restore liberal CCW issuance if elected.

We have been about as transparent as one can possibly be. The founders have all listed their full names and signed our mailer, and we list multiple forms of contact information (including email and phone numbers). Please feel free to contact us with any questions or join our mailing list. As things develop, I have no doubt that several candidates for Sheriff will emerge -- including those whose names you currently hear. Our goal will be to identify the strongest supporter of CCW and work for that person's election.

Jarrod
04-17-2009, 12:15 AM
GMONEY:

I think I speak for a few of us here, but we need more information from you guys... Who will you be supporting for Sheriff and why? If you can't answer that question then you won't get a dime from me. I have a hunch you already have a candidate in mind, but for some reason won't reveal it yet...

Has OrangeCountyCCW's response satisfied you? I respect your views as expressed, I just don't believe they are accurate. (Just respectful disagreement here.)

What else can SafeOC do to satisfy your concerns?

Frankly, I agree with their approach of a limited and targeted goal that does not overlap with the goals of other worthy pro-CCW organizations.