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Liberty1
04-10-2009, 1:25 PM
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/columns/Laska/carry_on.html

Carry On
Kimber Ultra Carry Stainless
Paul Laska
2009 Apr 10
You are tooling down Main Street and see the...gentleman...pumping gas into his chopped Harley at the Stop and Rob. Wearing a full beard and hair down to his shoulders, Dirty denim jeans, square-toe boots, a denim vest with some design across the back, and a holstered Glock 21 on his right hip. As you pull in and approach him, he nonchalantly continues to pump gas. As he finishes and puts the nozzle away, you tell him to keep his hands out, and that you are going to remove his pistol. He complies, even as a back-up arrives. Politely, he provides his identification, registration, and insurance card. As you prepare to hook him up, he looks at you, and says "I am allowed to carry openly. It's the law." Nonetheless, you hook him up and deliver him to lockup. A month later you are notified by the prosecutor that they have dropped all charges because his attorney pointed out eloquently that your state, to your and his bewilderment, permits open carry of firearms. Oh, and Billy the Biker will see you in federal court for his civil rights violation.

"No way," you say? In 44 states, open carry is permitted routinely to one extent or another. Some states are familiar names—Alaska, Arizona, Montana, New Mexico, states with deep roots in the cowboy or outdoors industries, where folks often need to carry as part of their work. Others are less expected, such as Virginia, where the wording was recently realized to be still present, even after their upgrades in their concealed carry law. Indeed, the map of open carry states is surprising, when one realizes that pistol permit bearers in such states as Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, and New Jersey may carry openly, and that even California law permits open carry in rural areas.

So what does this mean to the officer on the street? First, remain aware of your state's laws. They change, or have nuances that are not always well known. Try to avoid being entangled in a legal dispute over what your state permits; it keeps your batting average up, helps you avoid civil court, and increases your prestige among your populace. Probably the best source of current information on open carry status in all fifty states is the web site Opencarry.org. This site maintains information on specifics of carry in each state, permitting one to be aware of all aspects for the state.

Second, if your state has provisions for open carry, be familiar with the limitations. As noted above, some states provide open carry for any permit holder. Others may attach limitations on open carry, just as there are on concealed carry. Perhaps bars, or churches, or government facilities are off limits. Know the limitations.

Third, how do you approach situations involving open carry? On the one hand, you are approaching an armed individual, yet on the other hand, it is a legal act. I asked this of Dave Smith, aka J.D. Buck Savage, retired Arizona DPS lieutenant and well-known and respected police writer and trainer. This was a situation Smith handled on many occasions as an Arizona lawman. He explained that the first step was to control the firearm—separate it from the citizen, secure it for the length of the interaction. On any armed encounter back-up was a routine request. Generally the firearm would be run NCIC while the situation was further handled. If the situation played out with no further criminal action, the firearm, emptied, would be returned to its owner who could reload it and re-holster it after the departure of the officers.

One aspect Smith noted was that "you rarely saw folks with handguns just walking around, but your biker types would regularly carry." This seems to often be the situation encountered in other locations—those carrying may be gun rights activists, non-felon bikers, or others voicing a political point of view. Thus it again pays to, first, be cognizant of the law, and second, maintain a professional, respectful attitude when handling these folks. Obviously, caution must be the first component, but caution and civil professionalism can be managed together.

Open carry has further meaning for us. Whether you live in the state, or are visiting, if it is a full open carry state you are covered. On the one hand, it really is rude to carry open in an urban setting. On the other hand, when in the back country, it is very reassuring, whether you may encounter snakes, mortally injured cattle and deer, or ne'er do wells looking to prey on the unwitting. In these areas, wandering into a small town with a handgun on the hip would not start mass panic, although it may bring raised eyebrows if you aren't known locally.... more at the link

The author needed to better articulate the need for R/S to detain vs. just stoping and running checks for no reason other then OC. But it is an otherwise decent attempt to spread the word.

RomanDad
04-10-2009, 3:07 PM
I went through my local police departments "Citizen Academy" not too long ago....

Two things worth noting.

One, during a class about stop and frisk, arrest, etc, one of the instructors (a young Officer) said, "Ok... youre a police officer.... You see a guy walking down the street with a gun on a holster... What do you do?" He got a lot of answers like "Arrest him!!!" "Prone him out!!!!" "Shoot him!!!" and then he said, "In California, believe it or not, its totally legal to walk down the street with an unloaded gun if its not concealed. Now... Im going to stop you and make sure its unloaded, but thats all I can do legally."


Two: In the weapons class we got to play with the (unloaded) guns including the swat gear... (Ar 15s and M16s included)

Somebody asked about the new "California ARs" to which he said "yeah.... Its probably legal to have an AR if its NOT on the banned list and it has a locking magazine, its kindof a gray area.... Just the same, if you have one in your closet at home, and you arent bothering anybody, Im not going to be kicking your door in to look for it either way."

I live in a pretty cool city.

Unfortunately, in another class, A young cop asked what we would do if we came across a person with a concealed handgun... And I said, "It depends if he has a permit to carry it."

And he responded, "Theres no such thing..."

I said, "Really? Would you like to see mine?":43:

Lancear15
04-10-2009, 3:13 PM
I went through my local police departments "Citizen Academy" not too long ago....

Two things worth noting.

One, during a class about stop and frisk, arrest, etc, one of the instructors (a young Officer) said, "Ok... youre a police officer.... You see a guy walking down the street with a gun on a holster... What do you do?" He got a lot of answers like "Arrest him!!!" "Prone him out!!!!" "Shoot him!!!" and then he said, "In California, believe it or not, its totally legal to walk down the street with an unloaded gun if its not concealed. Now... Im going to stop you and make sure its unloaded, but thats all I can do legally."


Two: In the weapons class we got to play with the (unloaded) guns including the swat gear... (Ar 15s and M16s included)

Somebody asked about the new "California ARs" to which he said "yeah.... Its probably legal to have an AR if its NOT on the banned list and it has a locking magazine, its kindof a gray area.... Just the same, if you have one in your closet at home, and you arent bothering anybody, Im not going to be kicking your door in to look for it either way."

I live in a pretty cool city.

Unfortunately, in another class, A young cop asked what we would do if we came across a person with a concealed handgun... And I said, "It depends if he has a permit to carry it."

And he responded, "Theres no such thing..."

I said, "Really? Would you like to see mine?":43:

What city is that?

chris
04-10-2009, 3:28 PM
good article. more LE should be ecucated in this state to this as it would reduce problems when encountering UOC people in public.

sacgsxr
04-10-2009, 3:39 PM
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/columns/Laska/carry_on.html

more at the link

The author needed to better articulate the need for R/S to detain vs. just stoping and running checks for no reason other then OC. But it is an otherwise decent attempt to spread the word.

Good article. I like how it said "non-felon bikers". I thought to myself; Is there such thing? :)

nobody_special
04-10-2009, 4:34 PM
Bad article; it still suggests that police should detain (and search -- NCIC check) people who OC.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-10-2009, 4:47 PM
I went through my local police departments "Citizen Academy" not too long ago....

Two things worth noting.

One, during a class about stop and frisk, arrest, etc, one of the instructors (a young Officer) said, "Ok... youre a police officer.... You see a guy walking down the street with a gun on a holster... What do you do?" He got a lot of answers like "Arrest him!!!" "Prone him out!!!!" "Shoot him!!!" and then he said, "In California, believe it or not, its totally legal to walk down the street with an unloaded gun if its not concealed. Now... Im going to stop you and make sure its unloaded, but thats all I can do legally."


Two: In the weapons class we got to play with the (unloaded) guns including the swat gear... (Ar 15s and M16s included)

Somebody asked about the new "California ARs" to which he said "yeah.... Its probably legal to have an AR if its NOT on the banned list and it has a locking magazine, its kindof a gray area.... Just the same, if you have one in your closet at home, and you arent bothering anybody, Im not going to be kicking your door in to look for it either way."

I live in a pretty cool city.

Unfortunately, in another class, A young cop asked what we would do if we came across a person with a concealed handgun... And I said, "It depends if he has a permit to carry it."

And he responded, "Theres no such thing..."

I said, "Really? Would you like to see mine?":43: LOL! :rofl:

"I live in a pretty cool city." :thumbsup:

Reminds me, I need to do something.

pullnshoot25
04-10-2009, 4:52 PM
Looks like someone needs to see the patented OC letter... criminey, some people.

ZRX61
04-10-2009, 5:19 PM
non-felon bikers
WTF?? how about non-felon soccer moms, non-felon preachers?? This asshat thinks any biker NOT OCing in a frigging felon? Sterotype anyone? How all people as ignorant that that prize teat shouldn't be feeding at the Govt trough on taxpayers money?

Vtec44
04-10-2009, 5:44 PM
Good article. I like how it said "non-felon bikers". I thought to myself; Is there such thing? :)

As a biker myself, yes there is such a thing. :D

pullnshoot25
04-10-2009, 6:00 PM
I am going to go so far as to say that even IF you were a felon and openly carrying a firearm, there has to be circumstances beyond the presence of the gun to warrant a detainment and search.

pnkssbtz
04-10-2009, 6:32 PM
I don't like the biker stereotype they were playing.


Another thing, is I don't like the response on what the officer in the hypo should of done. What legal authority, absent probable cause, does the officer have to separate the firearm from the owner (i.a. effect a seizure of the firearm)?


Does a LEO have the legal authority to separate an Ipod from it's owner during a consensual encounter? What about their watch?



Other than that, I think the article, to LEO's, is a good wake up call. We will need more dialog of course, but this was an excellent start.

RomanDad
04-10-2009, 6:34 PM
What city is that?

Id rather not say...

RomanDad
04-10-2009, 6:36 PM
Reminds me, I need to do something.

Yeah.... Buy me lunch!!!!

Manic Moran
04-10-2009, 6:58 PM
"California has open carry only in rural areas?"

NTM

RomanDad
04-10-2009, 9:40 PM
"California has open carry only in rural areas?"

NTM

In California, both Concealed and Open carry of LOADED firearms is regulated by CPC 12050. In rural counties of less than 200,000 people, the issuing agency can grant a license to carry open and exposed. In counties of over 200,000 people, the only means of lawful loaded carry is concealed.

Manic Moran
04-10-2009, 9:43 PM
Fair enough. I guess looking at the focus of the article, he was really only concerned with LOC.

NTM

7x57
04-10-2009, 9:48 PM
Fair enough. I guess looking at the focus of the article, he was really only concerned with LOC.


Well, the only carry that actually makes sense is loaded carry. UC basically only exists because California didn't close all the loopholes.

If there was a state where it was illegal to carry a flashlight with batteries, and the residents carried empty flashlights as a workaround, the rest of us still wouldn't really think of that as carrying a flashlight in the normal sense. We'd think of it as a workaround for a braindead system.

7x57

M. Sage
04-10-2009, 9:50 PM
WTF?? how about non-felon soccer moms, non-felon preachers?? This asshat thinks any biker NOT OCing in a frigging felon? Sterotype anyone? How all people as ignorant that that prize teat shouldn't be feeding at the Govt trough on taxpayers money?

Exactly. The bad bikers are called 10%ers for a reason. 90% of people who ride are regular, law-abiding people, not felons or gang members.

Telperion
04-10-2009, 10:19 PM
So what does this mean to the officer on the street? First, remain aware of your state's laws. They change, or have nuances that are not always well known.
Is this guy serious? He has to remind law enforcement professionals that they should ... know the law? Imagine a professional publication aimed at engineers reminding them they should know how to use a calculator. I don't know whether to laugh or be depressed.

larnfow
04-10-2009, 10:59 PM
1% ers.... Not 10% ers... And they're clubs not gangs.... Stereotypes indeed suck. Btw most are freedom lovers, not criminals

Liberty1
04-11-2009, 2:57 AM
"California has open carry only in rural areas?"

In California, both Concealed and Open carry of LOADED firearms is regulated by CPC 12050. In rural counties of less than 200,000 people, the issuing agency can grant a license to carry open and exposed. In counties of over 200,000 people, the only means of lawful loaded carry is concealed.

You are correct RD as to 12050's ability to issue a loaded and exposed in certain low population counties.

However the "Ca has OC only in rural areas" is taken from OCDO's (opencarry.org) definition of Open Carry = loaded carry. So for their CA map (http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html)they show CA as "rural carry only" (along with Illinois) due to 12031 PC not applying to UNincorporated territory unless there is a county ordinance against discharge of a firearm. OCDO doesn't consider UOC to be OC hence the creation of U in UOC about two years ago after some debate on OCDO:p.

We had a member try to apply to his local sheriff for a 12050 loaded and exposed amendment to his 12050 license and the sheriff said they don't do those. So he UOCed and they revoked his license so now he UOCs all the time. Ahhhhhhhh...waiting for Nordyke......:sleeping:

Kid Stanislaus
04-11-2009, 6:20 AM
Is this guy serious? He has to remind law enforcement professionals that they should ... know the law? Imagine a professional publication aimed at engineers reminding them they should know how to use a calculator. I don't know whether to laugh or be depressed.


I think it was a class of recruits.

KylaGWolf
04-11-2009, 4:30 PM
Good article. I like how it said "non-felon bikers". I thought to myself; Is there such thing? :)

Um I know two of them that are non felon bikers thank you very much. As a matter of fact one is going for his forensics degree. The other will be the first to defend others without a second thought. Here is the thing if you go by looks alone on anything it can be very very misleading.

dwtt
04-11-2009, 5:34 PM
1% ers.... Not 10% ers... And they're clubs not gangs.... Stereotypes indeed suck. Btw most are freedom lovers, not criminals

If people only knew how much a custom chopper costs, the stereotype would die down. In real life, a dirty looking rider on a $25K chopper is more likely to be a doctor or stock broker than a member of an outlaw club like the Mongols or Hells Angels.

redneckshootist
04-11-2009, 5:38 PM
Good article. I like how it said "non-felon bikers". I thought to myself; Is there such thing? :)

I can think of quite a few non-felon bikers many are members here, and I dont personally know any bikers that are felons.

Python2
04-11-2009, 5:59 PM
ahem:) non-felon Harley rider here present.

Steve O
04-11-2009, 8:59 PM
Unfortunately, in another class, A young cop asked what we would do if we came across a person with a concealed handgun... And I said, "It depends if he has a permit to carry it."

And he responded, "Theres no such thing..."

I said, "Really? Would you like to see mine?":43:

lol. so what happened after that?

Fjold
04-11-2009, 9:27 PM
Exactly. The bad bikers are called 10%ers for a reason. 90% of people who ride are regular, law-abiding people, not felons or gang members.

It's "2%ers" but you have to be old to understand it.

M. Sage
04-11-2009, 9:54 PM
It's "2%ers" but you have to be old to understand it.

Whoops, it's 1%. My bad.

It'd be funny if we started referring to police officers as non-felon cops. Because it's 1% of that group that garners the reputation, too.

Tragic Image
04-11-2009, 10:10 PM
If people only knew how much a custom chopper costs, the stereotype would die down. In real life, a dirty looking rider on a $25K chopper is more likely to be a doctor or stock broker than a member of an outlaw club like the Mongols or Hells Angels.



I know... I totally try to avoid those roving gangs of accountants and HR Reps....

They're gonna file my W-4 with or without my consent... and I'm scared!

RomanDad
04-11-2009, 10:17 PM
lol. so what happened after that?

In a class of 16 people, TWO OF US HAD THEM.... He was shocked and curious... "What do you do? How did you get one???" And then he went on to correct his statement to the rest of the class with a "Theyre very rare."

The cop I did my ride along with, ALSO didn't know ordinary people could get one.... And this is in Orange County in the last six months, were CCW has been a BIG DEAL....

Here's the deal... MOST cops have never SEEN a CCW permit... Because the people who have CCWs aren't the type of people who get in trouble with the police. So CCW permits amongst LEOs are like Sasquatch.... They've heard legends of it, but they're pretty sure it doesn't really exist, because they've never seen one.

DParker
04-12-2009, 12:06 AM
"non-felon bikers". That is rich.

My 'gang' will be riding our Harleys to Death Valley for a couple of days later this month. Will be ~15 hardcore Realtors, mortgage brokers, financial consultants, etc.

Oh...and several of us will be legally packing.

The author of that piece is an idiot.

MP301
04-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Exactly. The bad bikers are called 10%ers for a reason. 90% of people who ride are regular, law-abiding people, not felons or gang members.

No, they are the 1% ers...not 10....