PDA

View Full Version : Do you support EFF and ACLU in fighting for 4A?


vladbutsky
04-09-2009, 1:13 PM
We all understand importance of the bill of rights and 2A specifically. May be we should try help EFF and ACLU in their fight for 4A and in the process win some hearts and minds to support 2A.
I know ACLU was not particularly caring about 2A in the past, but things might change if we show that we care about rights and guns are just tools to preserve our rights.
Just a thought...
http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/04/05

bwiese
04-09-2009, 1:20 PM
It's generally not a good idea to mix & match lobbying issues.

You lose focus, and "wires get crossed".

EFF however may be useful if, say, Calguns.Net came under legal attack.

vladbutsky
04-09-2009, 1:24 PM
I understand the point of focusing an a single issue instead of spreading your efforts and as result not having anough force to accomplish anything. But in this case it is already fought by EFF and we don't have to do much. Just showing a little support might go a long way.

rabagley
04-09-2009, 2:01 PM
We should help, because the 4th Amendment is also worth defending, not because we expect reciprocity on 2A issues at some future date.

As I'm an atheist myself, I could honestly care less if the ACLU was advocating a position on religion or whatever "family values" is supposed to stand for this week.

The central issue is that ACLU management believes that the 2nd Amendment is an unfortunate step-child that protects some sort of collective right. Heller was an unfortunate step in the wrong direction according to the leaders of the ACLU. Even if many of them get to know gun owners and realize that they're cooperating with gun owners on this case or others, they will not change their position on the 2nd just because we're good people.

Mayhem
04-09-2009, 2:05 PM
I support the EFF but the EFF is a very specific advocacy rights group. I would never expect them to fight for 2a rights any more then I would expect the NRA to fight for fair use or anonymity rights.

The ACLU is suppose to support all your constatutional rights and it doesn't. The ACLU doesn't give ratz behind about your 2a rights and couldn't care less about you if you're a white male. All the ACLU seems to care about is minorities being able to "Give it to the man".

Quiet
04-09-2009, 3:06 PM
I've supported the EFF.
Some of the EFF people I've talked with are gunners.

Only ACLU organizations I would think about supporting is the ACLU of Nevada (http://aclunv.org/category/issue/second-amendment).

spyderco monkey
04-09-2009, 3:18 PM
The EEF rocks, and they are protecting freedoms that are under just as much pressure as does the NRA. If you read up about the perilous state of electronic privacy, it is quite alarming. We should all support them, although not before Calguns foundation and NRA, obviously.

64Chevy
04-09-2009, 3:34 PM
It all hinges on what you mean by "support". Rather a vague statement. In a case like this and other polls, I may be thinking one definition and the people taking the survey may use it for another. Kind of like" Do you support common sense gun laws".
I will state that I do support all first ten U.S. constitutional amendments.

64Chevy

Mayhem
04-09-2009, 3:59 PM
It all hinges on what you mean by "support". Rather a vague statement. In a case like this and other polls, I may be thinking one definition and the people taking the survey may use it for another. Kind of like" Do you support common sense gun laws".
I will state that I do support all first ten U.S. constitutional amendments.

64Chevy

Gun Laws don't make any sense - look at California thats pretty common.

B Strong
04-09-2009, 6:49 PM
EFF yes, ACLU maybe depending on whether the California ACLU org. decides that Heller really means what it says and they spport and defend the Second Amendment.

vladbutsky
04-09-2009, 9:48 PM
It all hinges on what you mean by "support". Rather a vague statement.
We could send a letter to EFF stating our support and may be even donate some money. Also we could help them with coordinated emails/phone calls to legislature.
They do the fighting anyway but it might be helpful to them to know that gunowners are on their side.

Mayhem
04-09-2009, 9:58 PM
I support EFF the same way I support the GOA and the NRA. With my money with membership and donations and by sending letters to my reps and by trying to pull "fence sitters" onto my side of the fence.

I support the ACLU the same way I support certain other 2A advocacy groups (You know, the ones the brought us the safe gun list), I ignore them and hang up on them.

nicki
04-10-2009, 1:29 AM
In England the government plans to store all private e mail for government review anytime they want.

Yeah, the ACLU sucks regarding 2A, but not supporting this case isn't cutting of our nose, it is shooting ourselves in the head.

Nicki

Deadred7o7
04-10-2009, 1:41 AM
ACLU POSITION
Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right. For seven decades, the Supreme Court's 1939 decision in United States v. Miller was widely understood to have endorsed that view.

The Supreme Court has now ruled otherwise. In striking down Washington D.C.'s handgun ban by a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in D.C. v. Heller held for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, whether or not associated with a state militia.

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

ANALYSIS
Although ACLU policy cites the Supreme Court's decision in U.S. v. Miller as support for our position on the Second Amendment, our policy was never dependent on Miller. Rather, like all ACLU policies, it reflects the ACLU's own understanding of the Constitution and civil liberties.

Heller takes a different approach than the ACLU has advocated. At the same time, it leaves many unresolved questions, including what firearms are protected by the Second Amendment, what regulations (short of an outright ban) may be upheld, and how that determination will be made.

Those questions will, presumably, be answered over time.


Hmmm....
Doesn't the ACLU's position on 2A only serve to undermine the rest of their work? Their entire political platform is based on the absolute sanctity of the Bill of Rights, and the defense of those whose rights have been violated. So where is the logic in declaring that one of those amendments is irrelevant and can be thrown to the side? Where is the logic in dismissing the opinion of the highest court in the land (that declares what is and is not constitutional) and using your own in it's stead? It seems to me, the same universal mentality they take toward applying the Bill of Rights to controversial legal cases should be applied toward the Bill of Rights itself.