PDA

View Full Version : What would you do?


Justintoxicated
04-09-2009, 12:39 AM
Your watching someone break into your new car right in front of your house at 4:00 in the morning and jack your car stereo?

gcvt
04-09-2009, 12:50 AM
Where? In a rural area of California? In San Francisco? In Texas?

Model X
04-09-2009, 12:58 AM
Shoot him with a Super Soaker 150 filled with fresh blood and then let my land shark out of his cage.

Dark&Good
04-09-2009, 1:01 AM
If you're watching, then that's what you do...
I wouldn't.

CnCFunFactory
04-09-2009, 1:10 AM
I would run outside in my underwear with a surefire in one hand and a Kimber .45 in the other. Get the gangbanger thief out of the car, prone him out and wait for the cavalry, that the little woman is calling in, out of a sound sleep. LAPD arrives and you give a statement and he goes away. He was on probation for auto theft and only got 6 mos and was out in 3. Spend the next year looking over your shoulder thinking that he and his buddies are gonna come back for retribution. In my case though he was trying to take the entire car not the stereo.

kdm
04-09-2009, 6:06 AM
Since your life isn't in danger, a gun isn't needed...at least, according to CA.

Sam1
04-09-2009, 6:12 AM
hey buddy, GET THE **** AWAY FROM MY CAR

Mayhem
04-09-2009, 6:19 AM
You walk up behind him slip off your undies. wipe off the last place he touched on the car with your undies and tell him "you need to remove the finger prints".

Tyler
04-09-2009, 6:22 AM
http://www.filmwad.com/fw_images/deaths/American_History.jpg

Though it may feel rather nice at the time, we know this will probably not end well.

PatriotnMore
04-09-2009, 7:07 AM
Get a good look at them, call the Police, turn on a light and watch them run. Give a good description when the LE shows up.

jamesob
04-09-2009, 7:11 AM
http://www.filmwad.com/fw_images/deaths/American_History.jpg

Though it may feel rather nice at the time, we know this will probably not end well.
love that movie.

Tyler
04-09-2009, 7:48 AM
Yeah, it is an awesome movie, but it still makes me cringe when you hear the guys teeth touch the curb when he puts his mouth on it.

The part where he kicks open the door and busts a cap is just too badass for words :) That whole walking and shooting thing is cool, and why I started doing tactical handgun matches.

-Tyler

xxdabroxx
04-09-2009, 9:18 AM
Come out cocked and locked giving very direct orders. He may "fall" and hurt himself a little too.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 9:26 AM
Depending on how far away you are, the sound of a racking shotgun thru the window in crisp night are is pretty unmistakable. After that you could yell something like...."You know what comes next mutha-f....er???"

An unexpected warning shot fired in a safe direction could be pretty effective too. IF, and I say IF a neighbor called the COPs when they heard the shot, in my area, by the time they got their what are they gonna find?

Tough call though.....no one likes to be a victim, but do you really want all the associated hassle with cappin' a guy over a $200 stereo? That's one reason I don't invest alot of money in expensive stereo equipment.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 9:28 AM
Yeah, it is an awesome movie, but it still makes me cringe when you hear the guys teeth touch the curb when he puts his mouth on it.

The part where he kicks open the door and busts a cap is just too badass for words :) That whole walking and shooting thing is cool, and why I started doing tactical handgun matches.

-Tyler

The only thing that always struck me as odd about that scene....when his kicks open the front door to go out after the guy....his front door open OUT! Who's front door opens out? I know it looks good for effect....but that's just wrong.

pullnshoot25
04-09-2009, 10:14 AM
Since your life isn't in danger, a gun isn't needed...at least, according to CA.

But nothing stops someone from using a gun in the course of an arrest, right?

sfpcservice
04-09-2009, 10:18 AM
Fire a warning shot from my 700 Nitro Express.

Mr. Magoo
04-09-2009, 10:21 AM
Open garage to distract, flank out the front door.

Mason McDuffie
04-09-2009, 10:25 AM
I sick my trained attack cats on him. Their vicious predators and will stop at nothing. I just pray that he doesnt have any catnip on him cus it would be all over to soon.

Vtec44
04-09-2009, 10:31 AM
Come out cocked and locked giving very direct orders. He may "fall" and hurt himself a little too.


+1 ;)

Lancear15
04-09-2009, 12:02 PM
My home owners/car insurance agent lost her son in just a case like this. He had an old classic ford truck and if you didn't pump the gas enough times before starting it would stall. The thief didn't know that, So when he heard the loud exhaust start up he ran outside, tried to the pull the guy out of the stalled truck and was stabbed to death. The guy was able to get it running and took off. If you plan on protecting your property YOU BETTER BE ARMED!

Tyler
04-09-2009, 1:08 PM
1. Be discreetly armed.

2. Make sure you use the buddy system when going to investigate.

My buddy, Dante :43:
http://www.evilperson.com/pictures/Dante.jpg

Justintoxicated
04-09-2009, 1:09 PM
Well I didn't have a gun,a nd I can't have a dog. At the time and I was fumbling around for a large flashlight, wrench or knife none of which I could find. Not thinking clearly I ran outside to try to stop him (adrenalin). But he finished ripping out my dash and stereo and jumped back into his car and took off (he had his car facing the opposite direction ont he street and left it running). I was about 10 feet away when he got away with my stereo and parts of my dash and steering wheel controls etc. Mind you this was an eclipse CD player that will not work after it is removed.

The CD player could be had on ebay for about $200, but there was about $2000 of damage to the truck, locks, door was dented good from the crowbar, new Dash, center console,, steeringwheel control unit, Paint etc (which still does not match well due to Californias new Paint laws; paint must be waterbased now). Factory radios are find for sum, but I mine did not even play MP3's.

However should this happen again, would it be illegal to arm myself when I go out side? take aim and yell at him to get one the ground? Call the cops of course. Being in Long beach, I'm not sure how the cops would react, hell they might shoot me even though I called them. What about shooting up the car a bit or tossing a flashlight through his window should he still try to take off? I'm pretty sure I would go to jail for that?

Mayhem
04-09-2009, 1:12 PM
I sick my trained attack cats on him. Their vicious predators and will stop at nothing. I just pray that he doesnt have any catnip on him cus it would be all over to soon.

I had a laser guided attack cat that I use to launch at my Wifes ex-husband when he came around to visit MY kids (He's a dead beat therefore they are mine). It's amazing what you can do with a laser pointer. Reminds me of the face hugger scene from aliens.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 1:16 PM
Well I didn't have a gun at the time and I was fumbling around for a large flashlight, wrench or knife none of which I could find. Not thinking clearly I ran outside to try to stop him (adrenalin). But he finished ripping out my dash and stereo and jumped back into his car and took off. I was about 10 feet away when he got away with my stereo.

The CD player could be had on ebay for about $200, but there was about $2000 of damage to the truck, locks, door was dented good from the crowbar, new Dash, center console, Paint etc (which still does not match well due to Californias new Paint laws; paint must be waterbased now).

However should this happen again, would it be illegal to arm myself when I go out side, take aim and yell at him to get one the ground? Call the cops of course. Being in Long beach, I'm not sure how the cops would react, hell they might shoot me even though I called them. What about shooting up the car a bit or tossing a flashlight through his window should he still try to take off? I'm pretty sure I would go to jail for that?

Use of lethal force is not justified in CA for the stopping of a property crime. If you go out and point a gun at someone committing a property crime and your life is not in danger you could potentially be accused of "assault this a deadly weapon".

The thing you need to think about is that if you go out there with a gun, that could escalate the situation, especially if the other guy has a gun or a knife. If you go out there with on.....you'd better be prepared to use it. And what if he has a buddy near by that you didn't see in your haste to rush out there. all things one must think about when engaging a threat. It's the guy you don't see that will likely end up getting you dead.

But judging from the tone of your post quoted above, you need ALOT more education and training before you consider doing anything except calling the police and your insurance company. A gund doesn't make you a "badazz". W/o proper training and education it makes you an armed and extremely dangerous (mostly to yourself) idiot.

Justintoxicated
04-09-2009, 1:28 PM
edit: Judging from the tone of my post?


I do plan on taking some training courses etc but thats another topic. It does seem crazy to me that the right thing to do is watch someone destroy your property right in front of you. Insurance is one thing but $1000 deductable is still painful. $2000 in damage is not worth losing your life over, but I'm not sure I could sit there and not try to stop the theif... Sommetimes you gotta stand up for yourself. Calling the cops will only get them there in time to take a report.

Actualy, since the incident, the neighbors have called the cops on me for going out to my own truck at night and moving it across the street (not sure how they thought I was stealing it when I drove it across the street and parked it for street sweeping). They did show up promptly when my neighbors called and I was asked to step out of my own vehicle (4 cop cars and a ton of cops). I thanked them for responding quickly... So I suppose it is possible they might show up with a call, just not very likely (unless of course they are responding to me parking my own vehicle).....

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 1:41 PM
Like I said before man....no one likes to be a victim, I've had things stolen and my house burglarized before. It sucks...no doubt about that. But you have to really look at the actual costs. Is trying to save yourself $1000 worth your life if the BGs get the drop on you? Is it worth saving the $1000, if you end up shooting someone unjustifiably and end up in prison. If you're talking about confronting an active felon in the commission of a crime do you have what it takes to see it all the way to completion?

It sucks and NONE of us should hafta to roll over and be a victim.....but you also hafta do your own personal cost benefit analysis on the consequences of any course of action. I wasn't trying to put you down, I can tell you're pissed off, and rightly so. But the fact is that if you go out there with a gun YOU have now escalated the situation to a lethal force situation, if it goes down bad that will be on you.

Tyler
04-09-2009, 2:29 PM
YOU have now escalated the situation to a lethal force situation, if it goes down bad that will be on you.

What? Having a gun on you does not escalate the situation to lethal force. It just gives you the option of responding to a threat with lethal force. Lethal force is when you actually fire the weapon. I carry a concealed firearm at all times, does that mean when I go to the mall that I am entering it with lethal force?

What gets me about your statement is that it sounds a lot like what anti-gunners say all the time. That having a gun in your home for protection is dangerous because you might escalate a break in situation and get shot. Do you have a gun in your home for self defense?

I admit that going out to the break in is dangerous, and most likely stupid, and should be avoided if no one is being hurt, but doing so armed is in no way escalating the situation further than just going out there would. The only difference is that you are now able to better protect yourself.

Bad guys are bad guys and they will shoot you even if you are unarmed.

-Tyler

Vanguard
04-09-2009, 2:37 PM
Fire a warning shot from my 700 Nitro Express.

I wouldn't want to put craters in my yard or knock down a wall or something. :p

stormy_clothing
04-09-2009, 2:41 PM
I attempted to stop him, he started towards me I felt my life was in jeopardy, end

this is what happens when you let these piece of shet's go enough times.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2009/04/0409_gallo_mugshot_03.jpg

http://brokencontrollers.com/andrew-thomas-gallo-suspected-driver-that-killed-nick-t2083114.php

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 2:44 PM
What? Having a gun on you does not escalate the situation to lethal force. It just gives you the option of responding to a threat with lethal force. Lethal force is when you actually fire the weapon. I carry a concealed firearm at all times, does that mean when I go to the mall that I am entering it with lethal force?

What gets me about your statement is that it sounds a lot like what anti-gunners say all the time. That having a gun in your home for protection is dangerous because you might escalate a break in situation and get shot. Do you have a gun in your home for self defense?

I admit that going out to the break in is dangerous, and most likely stupid, and should be avoided if no one is being hurt, but doing so armed is in no way escalating the situation further than just going out there would. The only difference is that you are now able to better protect yourself.

Bad guys are bad guys and they will shoot you even if you are unarmed.

-Tyler

Having a gun is one thing.....POINTING A LOADED GUN or THREATENING something with a loaded gun in a situation that IS NOT a justified use of lethal force situation is called "Assault with a deadly weapon" PC 245, look it up. If use of lethal force is not justified to stop a property crime then what "legal" cause is there to use a gun to try and stop that crime? So you shoot the guy and find out he's unarmed...how you gonna explain that one? You were in your house, he was no threat to you....the threat came about when you went to confront him with a gun. That's who YOU escalate a property crime to a lethal force situation. See where it's goin'?

So you go out with gun drawn and he doesn't stop ripping out your stereo, he hasn't threatened you but he hasn't stopped either....You can't shoot him, he hasn't threatened you or produced a weapon...now what are you going to do? Stand there pointing your gun at him and telling him to stop while he continues to ignore you?

You have every legal right to use the force required up to but NOT INCLUDING lethal force to stop a property crime. So if you wanna go stop the guy....go ahead but you're gonna have to go hands on, tazer/stungun, pepper spray or something like that. You could take your gun with you, holstered/in your pocket/waistband......try to stop the guy, you tell him to stop and he pulls a knife or gun, go ahead....take him down.

I'm not saying I like the rules.....that's just what they are and how what you could do with a gun involved could end up working against you.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 2:49 PM
I will even concede in a certain manner that if you went out with gun drawn that would be tactically wise, because the COPs responding to a active car theft / burglary call would approach with gun drawn. BUT....even they can't shoot the guy just for breaking into the car. They will issue commands at gun point. But if the guy doesn't comply and has not made any threatening gestures or shown a weapon, they will hafta use a lesser means of force to stop the crime and subdue the suspect.

See what I mean? If all you have when you go out there is your hands and your gun and the guy doesn't stop BUT he also doesn't threaten you....what are you going to do except either watch the guy walk off with your stereo, or holster your gun and go hands on and hope he doesn't manage to get your gun away from you in the fight? Remember.....you're likely out there alone, no back up, not as properly dressed as one would hope to be in a fighting situation and so on......drop the ego, and anger at being robbed and think tactically for a minute, there are prolly way more ways such a situation good go bad for you then it could work in your favor....LEGALLY I'm speaking.

N6ATF
04-09-2009, 2:51 PM
Hmm, well assuming I ever got a new car or a house without a garage I would put it in, and I was awake at 4 am (presumably from my vigilant bulldog waking me up), I could also have a rifle with a laser scope, and a loud as hell PA. I'd probably dance the laser across his field of vision from inside my house without exposing my position and play gunshots over the PA, order him to close the door, lay on the lawn and stay there until the cops arrive. I'd hit the sprinkler system as soon as he goes on the lawn (in case he wants to run), and turn it off when he spreads eagle. If the cops complain about transporting a wet criminal, I'd toss 'em an old pair of scrubs.

Geo
04-09-2009, 2:56 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2009/04/0409_gallo_mugshot_03.jpg

That recidivist murdering POS deserves to be sent away for a lifetime of butt rape by large inmates.

Tyler
04-09-2009, 3:38 PM
We could go back and forth over made up scenarios all day, but no criminal would ever just continue to steal your car stereo while you are there yelling at him to stop. He is going to run, or fight you, and then run. At the point he is caught he is thinking only about not going to jail, so if you do confront him you better be ready for him to fight you because like animals there will be only flight or fight.

The what if game could be played all day.

You definitely do not want to walk up to the guy with a gun drawn. Keep it concealed and ready. Make sure there are obstetrical between the two of you or great distance and then tell him to stop. If he comes at you put him down. If he runs take note of where he went. If he ignores you wait for the cops to pick him up. But the whole time be ready to draw down.

And the idea that someone is going to get your gun from you if you do that is ludicrous. Guns get taken away because of bad situational awareness and tactics... not because you have a gun.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 4:05 PM
"And the idea that someone is going to get your gun from you if you do that is ludicrous. Guns get taken away because of bad situational awareness and tactics... not because you have a gun."

I was talking about if you had then gun drawn and the holstered to go hands on with the guy. Now he knows you have a gun and he's likely to try and get it from you.

I was basing my "what if" comments on the situation as stated in the OP....and trying to make the OP who seems to be less than knowledge about the laws regarding self defense and property crimes as to things to consider before getting a gun to stop the next guy who goes after his stereo.

YOU can do whatever you want.....and hope that the COPs and the DA and the jury end up siding with you. Good luck with that.

Meplat
04-09-2009, 5:44 PM
He would wait a lot longer than a year for revenge.:43:



I would run outside in my underwear with a surefire in one hand and a Kimber .45 in the other. Get the gangbanger thief out of the car, prone him out and wait for the cavalry, that the little woman is calling in, out of a sound sleep. LAPD arrives and you give a statement and he goes away. He was on probation for auto theft and only got 6 mos and was out in 3. Spend the next year looking over your shoulder thinking that he and his buddies are gonna come back for retribution. In my case though he was trying to take the entire car not the stereo.

Justintoxicated
04-09-2009, 5:50 PM
I'm not buying a gun to stop someone from stealing my stereo lol. I have other reasons for my purchase... And don't worry im getting the How To Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail book to read as well. I just wanted to see what people would realisticaly do in this situation. Sounds like I would be better off bringing out a tool. I really wish I would found my modified MagLite the cops would have a much easier time fiding a Car with no rear Windshield + the first 4 lisence plate number I gave them.

bwiese
04-09-2009, 5:50 PM
Don't be friggin' stoopid. Don't even exit your house armed.

You can't harm someone for stealing your stereo.

We don't need more gunnies in jail for stupidity, period.

That's why you have insurance.

Prowler
04-09-2009, 6:04 PM
After concluding that the thief wasn't armed and had no other friends nearby, I would finally get to take my skills and put them to use on his body. Probably get in a few kicks and break some ribs and at least one or two fingers of theirs, then call the cops. "...Sir, the reason for his injuries was due to self defense when he verabally threatened me and then lunged at me in an extremely aggressive manner. I was merely protecting myself." I'm not looking for this to happen to me, yet it has three times in my life when I wasn't there, and this guy would have been the recipient for the payback for all of my previous losses.

hawk84
04-09-2009, 6:05 PM
from the California Constitution

ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have
inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and
liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing
and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

Meplat
04-09-2009, 6:09 PM
If you don't have a gun. Call the cops, stay inside, don't turn on any lights or otherwise alert the thief. Hope the cops arrive in time to bust him.

If you have a gun. Call the cops, stay inside, don't turn on any lights or otherwise alert the thief. Hope the cops arrive in time to bust him.

In either situation, mentioning to the 911 operator that you will have a clear shot at him when he steps out of your car may get quicker response.:43:

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 6:12 PM
If you don't have a gun. Call the cops, stay inside, don't turn on any lights or otherwise alert the thief. Hope the cops arrive in time to bust him.

If you have a gun. Call the cops, stay inside, don't turn on any lights or otherwise alert the thief. Hope the cops arrive in time to bust him.

In either situation, mentioning to the 911 operator that you will have a clear shot at him when he steps out of your car may get quicker response.:43:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Or just say you think he has an unregistered AW and some hi-cap mags on him! LOL

Stan_Humphries
04-09-2009, 6:22 PM
The dude used some kind of tool to break into your car and rip out your stereo, right?

If you went out (armed) and demanded him to stop, and he chose to confront you with one of his tools in hand, it sounds like you might reasonably fear for your life at that point - and thus be justified in shooting the *****.

And please, let's not hear any more joe-sixpack legal theories about "you created/escalated the situation" by going out there. You are permitted to use the reasonable threat of force and/or reasonable force itself in the defense of your property. Does the reasonable car-owner confront the car thief armed? You bet.

Generally, the threat is required to put the perp on notice that force will be used, but if it looks like the threat won't stop the property damage soon enough, then you can just go straight out and beat the guy (reasonably) until he stops. Just be sure to stop the pistol-whipping session once he is unconcious and no longer poses a threat.

Might you be arrested? Sure. But you will have a very viable affirmitive defense to any charges against you.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 6:26 PM
Might you be arrested? Sure. But you will have a very viable affirmitive defense to any charges against you.


And in a world with reasonable judges and juries that might work for you. Here in CA? don't know if it's be worth the risk.

My statements about the escalation of force were taught to me by a deputy DA in this state. I think I'll take his word as to how things might likely go over most of the "opinions" stated here.

jrsportssupply
04-09-2009, 6:29 PM
Hey, is that a Tervuren? Nice dog!

1. Be discreetly armed.

2. Make sure you use the buddy system when going to investigate.

My buddy, Dante :43:
http://www.evilperson.com/pictures/Dante.jpg

LECTRIKHED
04-09-2009, 7:00 PM
If it was on my property that would be different. Parked on the street, I'd probably let it go. It's not worth being shot, or shooting someone and having to hire an attorney. That would cost way more than a broken window.

Car thieves usually work in pairs. One to drop them off and the other to steal.

I've had several car break ins where I stay. About once every 3 months. It sucks a lot. I finally got a good alarm put in with a blinking light. Since then it hasn't been broken into.

What I've learned from car break ins:
1. Keep nothing in your car.
2. Keep nothing in your trunk. Good burglars can tell if your trunk is waited down.
3. If you keep stuff such as jumper cables in the trunk, or other supplies, use the old ones.
4. Make a copy of your registration and sharpie out your personal details. Keep the real one in your work bag. Papers are frequently stolen.
5. Use a brake pedal lock. They work. My car was never stolen. It was always on. It also helps keeping family members from "borrowing" the car.
6. Get an alarm. $200-300 is worth it when you factor in the price of what a broken window is.
7. Don't upgrade your stereo. Get an ipod and fm transmitter or cassette adapter that you don't keep in the car.

It's just a car, not your home (usually). Not worth the price of an attorney or your life.

Stan_Humphries
04-09-2009, 7:17 PM
My statements about the escalation of force were taught to me by a deputy DA in this state. I think I'll take his word as to how things might likely go over most of the "opinions" stated here.

Hate to say it, but either you misunderstood what the DDA taught you about escalation of force, or the DDA was flat wrong.

But I can't blame you for wanting to play it safe and not risk the uncertainty and cost of a trial. At the end of the day, you are correct. The surest way to stay out of cuffs is to simply depend on the police to protect your life, liberty and property.

Cheers.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 7:29 PM
Hate to say it, but either you misunderstood what the DDA taught you about escalation of force, or the DDA was flat wrong.

But I can't blame you for wanting to play it safe and not risk the uncertainty and cost of a trial. At the end of the day, you are correct. The surest way to stay out of cuffs is to simply depend on the police to protect your life, liberty and property.

Cheers.

Well how would you define pointing a gun at someone to stop a property crime?

I never said I depend on the police to protect my life, liberty and property. But I also don't feel the need to risk my life, liberty and life time of aquired property to save a $200 stereo. Morally speaking I should be able to do anything I want to stop the fkkr.....but legally.....not worth it for a $200 stereo.

And go back and read some of my comments about the tactical concerns one needs to consider. Even if I was justified in doing so, it would most likely just be bad tactics all around to go out solo and confront someone in the comission of a crime. I'd be better off to engage from the window with a rifle, at least then I wouldn't hafta worry about his buddy poppin' out of shadow to take me down, take my gun and go rob my house to while I bleed out on the front lawn.

Stan_Humphries
04-09-2009, 8:08 PM
Well how would you define pointing a gun at someone to stop a property crime?

I would define that as stopping a property crime - at least in the situation posed by the person who started the thread.

If he was stealing your newspaper, then you might be guilty of a crime.


And go back and read some of my comments about the tactical concerns one needs to consider.

Did the Deputy DA teach you about the tactics as well?

If you are right about the tactical advisabiltiy, does that somehow strengthen your legal conclusion?

Again, I absolutely agree that the best way to stay out of police custody is to do nothing. But that is by no means your only option.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 8:28 PM
I would define that as stopping a property crime - at least in the situation posed by the person who started the thread.

If he was stealing your newspaper, then you might be guilty of a crime.


But that's not how the law defines it and in the eyes of the law it matters not if it's your newspaper or your car. It's still "just" property. If the guy stops and you hold him for the COPs no one will prolly care. But if you end up shootin' the guy it will likely be a whole different story.


Did the Deputy DA teach you about the tactics as well?

No....I learned those from a few veteran tactical instructors whose job it was to teach such things.


If you are right about the tactical advisabiltiy, does that somehow strengthen your legal conclusion?

Well I would certainly think that taking into account what one is LEGALLY allowed to do should be part of one's tactical approach should it not? Purely tactically speaking the best thing to do aside from nothing would be to cap the guy from my window with a rifle....but LEGALLY I'm not allowed to do that.

Does it strengthen my legal conclusion....I dont think it needs strengthening.....you can't use lethal force to stop a property crime...even if he's stealing your $250K Ferarri. And going out to stop the guy with the gun as your only option is likely to put you in a tough spot come decision time.

KylaGWolf
04-09-2009, 8:29 PM
Eh my faith if ADAs went downhill when the DA in charge of the case of beating of a old man by a 16 year old punk got plead out as a misdemeanor because they didn't read the case file.

I also like the buddy Dante! Too bad we can't have a dog or that would definately be high up on the list.

Tyler
04-09-2009, 8:40 PM
Hey, is that a Tervuren? Nice dog!

He is a Belgian Malinois, they are used as an alternative to German Shepherds in some police k9 units. They are a little smaller than the german shepherd. We had some when I was an MP and they were the only dogs that have ever scared me. Extremely loyal to their handlers, but F'ing psycho to anyone else. Mine is also a psycho but all love to my wife and I. They are awesome, and you don't see many of them.

This shows what they can do with the proper training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmnFK2aewCw&feature=related

-Tyler

hawk84
04-09-2009, 9:23 PM
theres a job I dont want
*dog food*

j6p2004
04-09-2009, 10:16 PM
Would the use of rubber bullets or rubber buckshots make any difference when you are trying to stop property crime? They are supposed to be non-lethal unless you are aiming for the head.

Justintoxicated
04-10-2009, 12:15 AM
Wow so many responses, I guess this is somewhat of a gray line. I know I should not have done what I did at the time looking back now thats not even a question in my mind. My car was parked across the street not in my driveway cause my landlord parks there I just rent... The theifs car was light up by a street light I park near. I did not have to worry about alerting him by turning on my light, because it was already on, the guy just did not care, I was still awake just getting into bed.

He did not break my window but did use some tool, screwdriver etc to pry on my door lock and dash, it was alot of damage. I wish he would have just broken the window. ( replaced door handle, lock, removed the dents, and painted 2 door panels, as well as replaced my center dash.) I am guilty of upgrading my factory radio, the stock one did not support Ipod mp3 or any of or my amps and was a POS. I don't advertise my stereo though, everything is very hidden to look factory except the CD player and mounted to make stuff a pain to rip off.

I'm pretty sure the guy was a tweeker / doper and I know he was a Lakers fan too. 4 of the plate numbers was just not enough. The whole stealing process took about 1-1.5 minutes. Break Door lock and unlock from outside so factory alarm does not go off, Pry Dash and Rip, then hop back into car.

Dark&Good
04-10-2009, 12:23 AM
I just thought of something.
If you have blanks in your gun, are you still in "legal danger"?

socalT
04-10-2009, 2:04 AM
Wow so many responses,.

I am feeling no love at all. I asked this same question/scenario a week ago and did not get all the heated responses.:sleeping:

www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=169418

Dark&Good
04-10-2009, 2:07 AM
Well, you can use the answers in this thread... we don't get to be noticed continually.

TheBundo
04-10-2009, 2:36 AM
Maybe just whack him over the head enough to stun him, hog-tie him, drive him 20 miles out in the country, strip him naked, untie him, and go home. I doubt he'd report what really happened, and it might make him think about a career change. :)

Edit - don't forget to get the keys to his car and wreck it up real good :)

hawk81
04-10-2009, 2:54 AM
Make a citizens arrest.

JJ1911
04-10-2009, 3:25 AM
For me, it would be about threat to me and my loved ones. If the car is outside, i'd be dialing 911 and trying to get a good look at the perp(s), look for the getaway vehicle and get plate numbers, and tell my family to stay inside and quiet. This is what I would do personally. Of course I'd have my shotgun and handgun/flashlight loaded up, but only if it turned into a home invasion scenario would I think about using them.

audi2539
04-10-2009, 6:31 AM
Only if it was in my driveway... I would carry a loaded shotgun over the shoulder and a BB gun in hand to go and confront him... first at night you can't tell it's a BB gun second the legal ramifications are none existent (I think). If he lunges at me, use shotgun, if he runs shoot a nice set of BB's up his @$$ and his car - to spread the wealth around.

Untamed1972
04-10-2009, 8:05 AM
Here's an idea......if you see his get away car sitting there....sneak out, don't confront him just move towards his car and shoot the tires out so he can't get away. He'd take off running, but hafta leave his car there for the COPs to trace and impound.

Thief gets away with you $200 stereo but loses his car! Now that would just be awesome!!!

Justintoxicated
04-10-2009, 8:45 AM
Here's an idea......if you see his get away car sitting there....sneak out, don't confront him just move towards his car and shoot the tires out so he can't get away. He'd take off running, but hafta leave his car there for the COPs to trace and impound.

Thief gets away with you $200 stereo but loses his car! Now that would just be awesome!!!

I think you would get arrested for that?
Also Blanks might not be assult with a deadly weapon, but what if he DID have a gun, then your F'ed.

Untamed1972
04-10-2009, 11:09 AM
I think you would get arrested for that?
Also Blanks might not be assult with a deadly weapon, but what if he DID have a gun, then your F'ed.

You might get dinged for discharge of a firearm in city limits. But maybe you'd get lucky and the COPs would think it was so damn funny the guy hadda leave his car behind that they'd let it slide. It would be nice if COPs could be that cool.

audi2539
04-10-2009, 12:16 PM
Yep... tell LEO's it was spontaneous explosion of tires and your collection of guns in your house had no part of it and the bullet holes are just....... ummm.... I think you just might get in trouble lol

Lancear15
04-10-2009, 12:40 PM
Purely tactically speaking the best thing to do aside from nothing would be to cap the guy from my window with a rifle....but LEGALLY I'm not allowed to do that.

In Texas you can use lethal force to protect your property even when you aren't threatened. I wish I could move there but all my Ex's live in Texas.

Edit: I should add two stipulations, that law is only valid at night and when it is your property on your land. In one case a guy shot a repo man for legally towing his truck away in the middle of the night. Shot him with his deer rifle with no warning. The man wasn't even arrested.

grahlaika
04-10-2009, 1:47 PM
Your watching someone break into your new car right in front of your house at 4:00 in the morning and jack your car stereo?

My car's insured. I'd call 911, report it, and give the police details. I'd take some pictures and video at least with my cell phone to have a record of it all. I figure if I don't startle the perp, he may still be there when the cops show up.

If he turns around and tries to break into my house, I'd warn him that I'm armed and that the police are on their way, preferably while I still have 911 on the phone with me so it's recorded. He won't get a second warning. I figure if he's not scared about the cops showing up imminently, or about the pump action of my shotgun, then he's not a casual thief.

Lone_Gunman
04-10-2009, 1:55 PM
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Or just say you think he has an unregistered AW and some hi-cap mags on him! LOL

Except call it a "machine gun" with "banana clips" :cool:

Justintoxicated
04-10-2009, 2:03 PM
My car's insured. I'd call 911, report it, and give the police details. I'd take some pictures and video at least with my cell phone to have a record of it all. I figure if I don't startle the perp, he may still be there when the cops show up.

If he turns around and tries to break into my house, I'd warn him that I'm armed and that the police are on their way, preferably while I still have 911 on the phone with me so it's recorded. He won't get a second warning. I figure if he's not scared about the cops showing up imminently, or about the pump action of my shotgun, then he's not a casual thief.

So if this kept happening in your neighbor hood, you would just fork out the $500 deductable and rental car fees everytime someone messes with your stuff?

grahlaika
04-10-2009, 2:16 PM
So if this kept happening in your neighbor hood, you would just fork out the $500 deductable and rental car fees everytime someone messes with your stuff?

As long as CA laws remain the way they are currently, yes. It's not worth me going to jail because some kids decide to steal my stuff. Forming a neighborhood watch, installing some security around the house would be my first options, as would moving away. If my neighborhood suddenly turned into Katrina world, and law enforcement wouldn't be present, then I might be obliged to take some other measures.

So long as there's a chance I'll get prosecuted for using a weapon, I'll take extra care to make sure I can prove in court that I was justified. If law breaks down, then I'll be free to match the lawlessness of the criminals, and I'm a better shot. Yes, it sucks that I fear prosecution for protecting my stuff and my family, but such is the choice I made to move here.

Two Shots
04-10-2009, 2:34 PM
This is how rural farmers think, Noise aah grab shotgun.

The caller said that he heard his vehicle turn on and went outside with his shotgun to investigate, allegedly finding and detaining 23-year-old Alejandro Aguiniga and 22-year-old Heather Reddy inside the vehicle.

This is also how secure people out here thought they were.

Authorities say the victim's vehicle was unlocked with the keys in the ignition.


http://wcco.com/watercooler/car.theft.gunpoint.2.895227.html

Mikeb
04-10-2009, 3:15 PM
I have one of those big rechargeable, 100,000 candle power flash lights that I keep to check out those "bumps in the night". Most cockroaches will scatter when you turn on the lights. It has a pistol grip and a trigger... there is some small satisfaction in that.
take care
Mike

fullrearview
04-10-2009, 3:24 PM
That recidivist murdering POS deserves to be sent away for a lifetime of butt rape by large inmates.

Don't threaten him with a good time!!!

Meplat
04-10-2009, 4:10 PM
But that's not how the law defines it and in the eyes of the law it matters not if it's your newspaper or your car. It's still "just" property.

Wrong! The value of the property impinges on the seriousness of the crime. A newspaper theft would be a misdemeanor. An auto theft will usually be a felony. Much more force is justified in the prevention of a felony than a misdemeanor.

Meplat
04-10-2009, 4:14 PM
Another bad idea. In the American "justice" system, no good deed goes unpunished!


Would the use of rubber bullets or rubber buckshots make any difference when you are trying to stop property crime? They are supposed to be non-lethal unless you are aiming for the head.

Meplat
04-10-2009, 4:17 PM
20 miles is not far enough, and be sure to take his shoes!

Maybe just whack him over the head enough to stun him, hog-tie him, drive him 20 miles out in the country, strip him naked, untie him, and go home. I doubt he'd report what really happened, and it might make him think about a career change. :)

Edit - don't forget to get the keys to his car and wreck it up real good :)

Justintoxicated
04-10-2009, 4:17 PM
As long as CA laws remain the way they are currently, yes. It's not worth me going to jail because some kids decide to steal my stuff. Forming a neighborhood watch, installing some security around the house would be my first options, as would moving away. If my neighborhood suddenly turned into Katrina world, and law enforcement wouldn't be present, then I might be obliged to take some other measures.

So long as there's a chance I'll get prosecuted for using a weapon, I'll take extra care to make sure I can prove in court that I was justified. If law breaks down, then I'll be free to match the lawlessness of the criminals, and I'm a better shot. Yes, it sucks that I fear prosecution for protecting my stuff and my family, but such is the choice I made to move here.


We have a neighborhood watch but aparently they can't do anything when they see a crime in progress...

TheBundo
04-10-2009, 11:02 PM
Here's an idea......if you see his get away car sitting there....sneak out, don't confront him just move towards his car and shoot the tires out so he can't get away. He'd take off running, but hafta leave his car there for the COPs to trace and impound.

Thief gets away with you $200 stereo but loses his car! Now that would just be awesome!!!

Better to do it with a buck-knife. Quiet (maybe he wouldn't even hear, you could sneak back inside and call the cops), and no risk of arrest for firearms-related charge

CnCFunFactory
04-10-2009, 11:06 PM
Better to do it with a buck-knife. Quiet (maybe he wouldn't even hear, you could sneak back inside and call the cops), and no risk of arrest for firearms-related charge


Or we could stick a banana in his tail pipe a-la eddie murphy in beverly hills cop
:43:

N6ATF
04-10-2009, 11:18 PM
We have a neighborhood watch but aparently they can't do anything when they see a crime in progress...

Emphasis on the watch. There is safety in numbers, but not much stealth in opening front doors and storming out. Though you could have a nice radio-coordinated crossfire of laser-sighted rifles with the bolts open ready to chamber a round. Then everyone could get on their PA systems and tell the criminals to spread out on the ground and wait for police to arrive.

stillnotbob
04-11-2009, 1:23 AM
I would just call 911.... then light my car up with my HID spotlight. That thing will flood the interior of the car with light from down the block. :cool2: Should be enough to stop the person from hacking up my car.

If I was feeling really pissed off, then I guess I could say during the 911 call that it LOOKED like he might be armed but I am not sure. :) Police might respond faster.

Realistically.... it's just a car radio. My family needs me more.

Untamed1972
04-11-2009, 7:05 AM
Wrong! The value of the property impinges on the seriousness of the crime. A newspaper theft would be a misdemeanor. An auto theft will usually be a felony. Much more force is justified in the prevention of a felony than a misdemeanor.

Do you have some legal backup for that statement? I dont ever recall hearing that more force is justified because it's a felony....because factor in your average citizen doesn't know the law enough to know what's a felony and what isn't. Property is property. Use of force laws say that for ANY use of force situation you may only use the amount of force REASONABLE required to stop the crime / subdue the suspect. There is nothing in there that says but if it's a felony, or the property value is over $X then you can open a can of whoopazz on them.

If someone enters walmart with intent to commit theft, that's considered a burglary, a felony, even if they only steel a pack of gum. You mean more force can be used on them simply because of the felony aspect of the crime?

SimpleCountryActuary
04-11-2009, 8:01 PM
I would call 911 and let LAPD handle it. 18 years ago my wife's pick-up truck was stolen and the only way I found out was when the LAPD called to say that Rampart Division had my wife's truck and caught the guy driving it. We were asleep and didn't know it was gone.

The pros will handle the situation better than we can, with less danger to human life and limb.

(I will admit I would LIKE to grab my rifle and charge the SOB and hit him with the rifle butt. However, it is important to choose the correct action in a moment of crisis.)

RomanDad
04-11-2009, 9:19 PM
Your watching someone break into your new car right in front of your house at 4:00 in the morning and jack your car stereo?
Call 911 and realize that's why I have auto insurance?

Justintoxicated
04-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Call 911 and realize that's why I have auto insurance?

Thats great until you get hit multiple times and it's $1000-$500 deducatable everytime someone vandalizes your car. Luckily the crime spree has slowed down as some of the criminals were caught a few weeks after I was hit. But like I said I did call the cops, I did get as many plate numbers as possible (only got 4 nunbers) and I did crazily run out there to try to stop the guy... I still had to pay $500 deductable, and my drivers side doors will never look the same again, even after they fixed it as best as possible.

Sleepy1988
04-13-2009, 11:47 AM
I would grab a gun and some pepper spray and subdue the thief. If he had a firearm and attempted to use it, I would shoot him until he was no longer a threat.

Neil McCauley
04-13-2009, 11:48 AM
I would read a book.

M. Sage
04-13-2009, 6:22 PM
Well... now that I'm in Texas, the answer has become much different. :43:

I had a laser guided attack cat that I use to launch at my Wifes ex-husband when he came around to visit MY kids (He's a dead beat therefore they are mine). It's amazing what you can do with a laser pointer. Reminds me of the face hugger scene from aliens.

ROFL! I never thought of using a laser pointer and cat in that way!

retired
04-13-2009, 7:29 PM
He is a Belgian Malinois, they are used as an alternative to German Shepherds in some police k9 units. They are a little smaller than the german shepherd. We had some when I was an MP and they were the only dogs that have ever scared me. Extremely loyal to their handlers, but F'ing psycho to anyone else. Mine is also a psycho but all love to my wife and I. They are awesome, and you don't see many of them.

This shows what they can do with the proper training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmnFK2aewCw&feature=related

-Tyler

I was given an opportunity by a buddy of mine to have a Malinois try to rip my arm off my body one time and I took it. I should explain; we were both deputies and he was a K9 deputy. We had just finished checking the roof of a shopping center and were doing a debriefing.

He said he usually rewards the dog and wanted someone to volunteer to pull on the "training sleeve" and let the dog have some fun. Everyone else was scared to volunteer, so I did. Man, that dog had some power.:eek: I thought he was going to pull my arm right off!

Cobrafreak
04-13-2009, 9:02 PM
I would take my shotgun and my camera. I would take the jerks picture and then say, "I'll sell you this camera for $500.00" :)