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SubstanceP
04-08-2009, 8:45 PM
to search a vehicle entering California?

Just curious as I noticed the dogs the BP are using. I'm wondering if anyone knows what they're looking for with those dogs. Is it just drugs? Or are they also looking for firearms/ammo? And if they're concerned about firearms and ammo, how can they distinguish between folks abiding by the law who have legal firearms/ammo and law breakers who do not? Does the law abiding citizen have to submit to a search if a dog is alerted by the smell of ammo (assuming the dogs are trained to alert for ammo)?

kermit315
04-08-2009, 8:52 PM
I would say they are just drug dogs, since that is what is coming up from down below.

dustoff31
04-08-2009, 9:00 PM
to search a vehicle entering California?

Just curious as I noticed the dogs the BP are using. I'm wondering if anyone knows what they're looking for with those dogs. Is it just drugs? Or are they also looking for firearms/ammo? And if they're concerned about firearms and ammo, how can they distinguish between folks abiding by the law who have legal firearms/ammo and law breakers who do not? Does the law abiding citizen have to submit to a search if a dog is alerted by the smell of ammo (assuming the dogs are trained to alert for ammo)?

Because the law abiding folks will have declared their weapons and ammo when crossing the border.

And yes, they can search whatever they want at the border.

hoffmang
04-08-2009, 9:34 PM
Border Patrol has no limitations on the searches they can conduct upon re-entry into the country. The only limitations are unconscionable acts.

-Gene

ChuckBooty
04-08-2009, 9:42 PM
Border Patrol has no limitations on the searches they can conduct upon re-entry into the country. The only limitations are unconscionable acts.

-Gene

Which is why I drive the back roads coming back to Temecula from Rainbow Range. Those inland border checkpoints are BS. I don't think I've EVER seen them pull over a truckload of obvious illegals. But I have been pulled over there (white kid in a brand new mustang...yeah....straight across the Rio) and had them walk the dog around my car. No warning, no PC, no nothing.

uxo2
04-08-2009, 9:47 PM
Border Patrol has no limitations on the searches they can conduct upon re-entry into the country. The only limitations are unconscionable acts.

-Gene

I believe the OP is talking about BEING IN USA soil on a Interstate,


Check points....

ChuckBooty
04-08-2009, 9:48 PM
The inland border checkpoints are considered "border crossing zones" and therefor are "no constitution" zones.

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SubstanceP
04-08-2009, 9:54 PM
Border Patrol has no limitations on the searches they can conduct upon re-entry into the country. The only limitations are unconscionable acts.

-Gene

Thanks Gene. But, I was wondering about the checks they can perform upon citizens going from one state to another and not those re-entering the country.

I've been traveling route 8 back and forth from AZ to Cal for four decades now and it really ticks me off that now there are armed .gov types forcing me to come to a stop while they circle my car with dogs. I've got nothing to hide. My firearms are Cal legal as is my ammo. But it still pisses me off.

GenLee
04-08-2009, 10:14 PM
to search a vehicle entering California?

Just curious as I noticed the dogs the BP are using. I'm wondering if anyone knows what they're looking for with those dogs. Is it just drugs? Or are they also looking for firearms/ammo? And if they're concerned about firearms and ammo, how can they distinguish between folks abiding by the law who have legal firearms/ammo and law breakers who do not? Does the law abiding citizen have to submit to a search if a dog is alerted by the smell of ammo (assuming the dogs are trained to alert for ammo)?

You should be well aware that these dogs are fully trained in constitutional laws, as well as probable cause. If they detect ANY illegal contraband including but not limited to legally obtained ammo, firearms, prescription drugs, drugs of "shady" legalities, passengers, passengers of "shady" heritage, Gay, Lesbian and anti Christian religions etc. They are not probable for these inspections but likely. If you feel you have been an innocent victim of these unconstitutional searches and seizures please dial 1-800-CIV-R8TS and you will be directed to 1) Your white = Nobody 2) Your of non-white heritage = ACLU 3) You are a terrorist = An operator will be with you shortly as we have not figured out how to deal with you yet.

Conversekidz
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uw7506xMw&feature=channel_page

hoffmang
04-08-2009, 10:42 PM
If you are close enough to the border it is a 4th amendment free zone based on case law.

-Gene

GenLee
04-08-2009, 11:03 PM
If you are close enough to the border it is a 4th amendment free zone based on case law.

-Gene

Gene, I was so hoping you had better advise. I am in San Diego and not only fear but experience your words of wisdom on an almost daily basis. Have we no recourse? Is this case law with no "hope"?

So the fourth as a right and as interpreted actually has boundaries? How does this fall in equal protection?

TheBundo
04-08-2009, 11:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLlEh0x2XA&feature=channel

SubstanceP
04-08-2009, 11:09 PM
If you are close enough to the border it is a 4th amendment free zone based on case law.

-Gene

Unreal. America has died.

Conversekidz
04-08-2009, 11:10 PM
If you are close enough to the border it is a 4th amendment free zone based on case law.

-Gene

Gene not to be a trouble maker, but what is the court defined distance of "close enough" to the border? It seems like that could be a slippery slope.

hoffmang
04-08-2009, 11:44 PM
Gene not to be a trouble maker, but what is the court defined distance of "close enough" to the border? It seems like that could be a slippery slope.

It is a disgusting slippery slope. When I have more time I'll pull the SCOTUS opinions together on this.

-Gene

M. Sage
04-09-2009, 5:14 AM
Which is why I drive the back roads coming back to Temecula from Rainbow Range. Those inland border checkpoints are BS. I don't think I've EVER seen them pull over a truckload of obvious illegals. But I have been pulled over there (white kid in a brand new mustang...yeah....straight across the Rio) and had them walk the dog around my car. No warning, no PC, no nothing.

Inside the US and not at a border crossing? Border Patrol has the same powers as any LEO.

SubstanceP
04-09-2009, 7:29 AM
It is a disgusting slippery slope...

No doubt.

I guess because my home is on the coast I have no 4th Amendment protection there either.

Untamed1972
04-09-2009, 9:08 AM
Yeah....so pretty much if you live in San Diego or Imperial county you're f'ed!

MP301
04-10-2009, 2:42 AM
Because the law abiding folks will have declared their weapons and ammo when crossing the border.

And yes, they can search whatever they want at the border.

Ahhhh, are guns now legal in Mexico and no one told me? I wonder if its actually a good idea to declare this activity? Plus, while crossing back into the US on foot from mexico, I had a BP agent tell me that it was a felony to bring a weapon into the US from Mexico...not to mention its a mandatory 7 year sentence if caught with a gun un Mexico..

TheBundo
04-10-2009, 3:43 AM
Yeah....so pretty much if you live in San Diego or Imperial county you're f'ed!

LOL, if it were only just that bad. It's a 100 mile ring around the entire USA including AK and HI, all the oceans, and Canada. It includes over 80% of the population of the USA. NYC, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Miami, the list is almost endless.

dustoff31
04-10-2009, 5:06 AM
Ahhhh, are guns now legal in Mexico and no one told me? I wonder if its actually a good idea to declare this activity? Plus, while crossing back into the US on foot from mexico, I had a BP agent tell me that it was a felony to bring a weapon into the US from Mexico...not to mention its a mandatory 7 year sentence if caught with a gun un Mexico..

As it pertains to Americans, guns have pretty much always been legal in Mexico with a permit, which is only issued for sporting purposes, and caliber is quite restricted.

As far as bringing a gun back from MX, if you took one in, you would declare it on the way out of the US and there is no problem bringing it back.

The point of my comment was that if you're "law abiding" both sides already know you have a gun.

Untamed1972
04-10-2009, 9:10 AM
LOL, if it were only just that bad. It's a 100 mile ring around the entire USA including AK and HI, all the oceans, and Canada. It includes over 80% of the population of the USA. NYC, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Miami, the list is almost endless.

Yes.....but the concentration of BP agents is much higher along the border zones then say somewhere on the central coast of Oregon. There are a donzen or more (not counting temp ones that move around) BP check points in SD and Imp. Co alone.

guns_and_labs
04-10-2009, 9:34 AM
LOL, if it were only just that bad. It's a 100 mile ring around the entire USA including AK and HI, all the oceans, and Canada. It includes over 80% of the population of the USA. NYC, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Miami, the list is almost endless.

Which is why, back in the day, Customs used to get asked to do ride-alongs in one coastal city, whenever the local guys had a hunch about a drug deal.

I understand that practice has been ended.

Rivers
04-10-2009, 10:39 AM
If you are close enough to the border it is a 4th amendment free zone based on case law.

-Gene

So does this mean that if you are within 100 miles of the border, like I am as a resident of San Diego, that BP can stop and search my vehicle without the probable cause required for CHP or PD to do the same search, without me ever having come within sight of the border?

Would this also apply to anyone living in, for example, Oxnard or SLO or Monterey, being far from Mexico yet "on the border" since they are on the coast?

I'm very curious at what point my constitutional rights became less than those in Reno or Bakersfiled? Why would I have stronger 4A rights if I'm 101 miles from the border than 99 miles? Obviously that's an arbitrary distance so what judiciary would set case law that anyone's constitutional rights can be significantly regulated using such an obviously arbitrary standard?

dustoff31
04-10-2009, 11:14 AM
So does this mean that if you are within 100 miles of the border, like I am as a resident of San Diego, that BP can stop and search my vehicle without the probable cause required for CHP or PD to do the same search, without me ever having come within sight of the border?

Would this also apply to anyone living in, for example, Oxnard or SLO or Monterey, being far from Mexico yet "on the border" since they are on the coast?

I'm very curious at what point my constitutional rights became less than those in Reno or Bakersfiled? Why would I have stronger 4A rights if I'm 101 miles from the border than 99 miles? Obviously that's an arbitrary distance so what judiciary would set case law that anyone's constitutional rights can be significantly regulated using such an obviously arbitrary standard?

There are a number SCOTUS decisions on this matter. Here is a link to one of the more prominent.

http://www.roadblock.org/federal/caseUSmartinez.htm

Essentially, SCOTUS has ruled that the BP can more or less do what they want at the border or fixed checkpoints. There are different rules for pulling people over on the road. The 100 mile thing is US law, 8 CFR 287.1a.

I'm sure Gene has much more and better info when he gets around to posting it.

I think it's also important to note that this is nothing new. These SCOTUS decisions are all from the mid-70s.

Untamed1972
04-10-2009, 12:07 PM
There are a number SCOTUS decisions on this matter. Here is a link to one of the more prominent.

http://www.roadblock.org/federal/caseUSmartinez.htm

Essentially, SCOTUS has ruled that the BP can more or less do what they want at the border or fixed checkpoints. There are different rules for pulling people over on the road. The 100 mile thing is US law, 8 CFR 287.1a.

I'm sure Gene has much more and better info when he gets around to posting it.

I think it's also important to note that this is nothing new. These SCOTUS decisions are all from the mid-70s.

That is my understanding from past research as well. At Fixed/designated check points (they do some mobile ones in different places now) they have more latitude then during a solo traffic stop of a vehicle. Now what they call PC" to do a traffic stop is another question. They can say just about anything and it will only be an issue if it is challenged.

TheBundo
04-10-2009, 11:58 PM
Yes.....but the concentration of BP agents is much higher along the border zones then say somewhere on the central coast of Oregon. There are a donzen or more (not counting temp ones that move around) BP check points in SD and Imp. Co alone.

So far, the future is yet to be seen

KylaGWolf
04-11-2009, 4:39 PM
They are looking for drugs and illegals stuffed in your trunk. And as Gene put it they can do it legally.