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bubbapug1
04-08-2009, 5:48 PM
How do LEO's view AW's with bullet buttons in the general population?

Do LEO's see guns as a contributing factor in overall crime, or do you think gun control will just keep guns out of the hands of non criminals?

Jonathan Doe
04-08-2009, 6:06 PM
As long as the firearm is California compliant, the firearms is no different than any other handguns, rifles or shotguns.

The criminals will use anything to get their job done. Guns happened to be a easy tool for them. They will get it anyway they can whether there are gun control law or not. There are enough guns out there already.

1911su16b870
04-08-2009, 6:42 PM
IMO the OLL and bullet button phenomenon is a wonderfull example how ingeneous calguns members and those who configure their rifles legally are. I do not think (and hopefull) that we will see any crimes commited with compliant AWs.

Also IMO Criminals will get guns to commit crimes irregardless of the laws and controls but in place.

desmark6
04-08-2009, 6:45 PM
Look at the last 2 shootings where multiple officers were killed with assault weapons, kinda proves that bans/laws/restrictions don't do much to keep bad people from being bad.

If you are a law abiding/sane person I have no issues with you owning whatever ya like to shoot. Imagine if there hadn't have been a civilian to lend assault weapons to LAPD during the infamous north hollywood shootout!

scombs263
04-08-2009, 6:50 PM
Punish the BAD guys severly...I mean it, hammer them so they will not do it again...Regular law abiding citizens have the right to bear arms and should not be penalized for crooks behavior...

Rogue187
04-08-2009, 7:53 PM
I see we kinda missed the big stickied thread up top that says:
READ THESE RULES BEFORE POSTING

Otherwise you would have seen this part of the rules:
3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-08-2009, 8:38 PM
Many LEOs I know are mystified by the AW provisions - that's why I used to get calls to ID weapons. I can't speak for other LEOs, I can only say that if it's not illegal, I didn't have a problem with it. Now that I'm retired and have time, I'm building a rifle - and it'll have to have a Raddlock on it (unless I decide to go MMG/featureless).

I've never thought that guns were a contributing factor in crime. Criminals use whatever is at hand to do their deeds with. If they don't have a gun, then a knife, screwdriver or a big rock will do. Gun control only works on honest people, not criminals.

I agree with Rogue197 - criminals should do their whole time. No parole, no probation. I'd go a step farther. Jails and prisons should be harsh places that you don't want to go back to, not "gray bar hotels" with "3 hots and a cot", commissary, a well-appointed exercise yard, and programs to pass the time. All cells should be solitary so prison gangs can't play their games. Don't like it? Then don't come to jail!

How the ACLU would howl... but I bet the recidivism rate would go down.

Ron-Solo
04-08-2009, 9:06 PM
As a current LEO who was attacked 20 years ago with a AK47, I still don't blame the AW. The 3 guys who opened fire on my partner and I were hard core criminals who STOLE their guns from honest people. Two were on parole and were previously criminally deported aliens who had no business in this country.

Since I learned about OLL, bullet buttons, etc, I encourage every law abiding citizen to build one and I point them in the right direction to do so.

During one of my assignments there was a legal shooting area that I patrolled. I had many great conversations with hundreds of gun owners, who often asked me to shoot their guns. I also encountered many thugs who had no business with a gun and couldn't follow a rule if their life depended on it. Many of those went to jail, where they belonged and can't prey on the law abiding gun owners anymore.

I disagree with the current CA gun laws, but those are the ground rules until we can get them changed. Keep building OLL's within the law and pay attention to who you vote for.

Support you local OLL friendly dealers, buy from them when you can rather than the internet if the prices are close. We need them!

Ron :thumbsup:

Synergy
04-08-2009, 9:21 PM
Many LEOs are ill informed. I'm a fireman and went into my local police station, while I was on duty in my uniform. I saw a LEO magazine on the counter talking about .223 rifles for patrol duty. It had the AR's, HK 416, Mini 14 etc... I showed the pic of the AR to the Lt. and asked if I had this what would you do?

He said we would take you in.

I said "What if I am California legal" We will still take you in, run you and the gun. I have the PC in my gun bag explaining the legality. His statement blew my mind. "Thats OK we will find something to nail you with!"

Now I don't know if he was just trying to be cavalier since I was a round-a-bout coworker. That statement is just wrong.

BigDogatPlay
04-08-2009, 9:29 PM
I too used to get asked to "check out" weapons on the street because I was "the expert". Everyone knew I knew about guns. And I was constantly mystified by the intricacies of California AW law. I wish that I had had the flowchart five or ten years ago, I'd probably have more hair from not scratching my head so much.

I never felt like I had anything to fear from a law abiding person who owned a firearm. Just as working LEOs today have nothing to fear from me. I'm building an OLL with BB and features. When I get done with that I want to start on a featureless with some form of compliant stock and make a racegun out of it.

Semi auto is semi auto is semi auto, no matter how many rounds it holds or what it fires. They are all mechanically the same. If the anti's ever figure that out, we're probably done for sure. So long as they continue to focus on cosmetic issues, and so long as we have creative people on our side who can design and manufacture parts that keep us compliant, then I'm all for it.

Keeping guns out of criminal hands is easy, actually. Keep violent crime felons locked away for ever. Turn out the check kiters,con men and white collar types and use every available bed for violent felons and baby rapers.

Pretty simple, really.

bubbapug1
04-08-2009, 9:40 PM
It sounds like LEO's see a lot of bad guys who have no respect for the gun laws...or any other law. I would like to thank thos ein the field for taking on the dealing with the dregs of society on all of our behalf. There are some of us, proably most of us, who do appreciate the job being done. I just wish you had more resources at times...and less second guessing for sure.

I wonder what recommendations you would give to lawmakers to decrease the likelihood a repeat offender gets his hands on a weapon.

Gurmpy states "I agree with Rogue197 - criminals should do their whole time. No parole, no probation. I'd go a step farther. Jails and prisons should be harsh places that you don't want to go back to, not "gray bar hotels" with "3 hots and a cot", commissary, a well-appointed exercise yard, and programs to pass the time. All cells should be solitary so prison gangs can't play their games. Don't like it? Then don't come to jail!"

I think I agree with that statement, but I am not sure if harshness helps or would just holding guys in longer until their hormones cooled off help even more????

I watch the gangland shows on the history channel and I am mystified on how the prisons can be so loosely run as to let so much stuff get in and out...is it really a matter of ACLU folks prying open the bars based on cruel and unreasonable punishment arguments? This stuff has been hashed out in the courts for decades now, but it seems most criminal types are criminals forever once they head down that route...based on a proclivity for violence and mental illness of some sort...is that what you see in the field? Can you spot a criminal type quickly or are some more adept at fitting in than others?

As to the bullet button...I can see that a bullet button would really slow down a shooter intent on mass murder...in contests where folks use a 22LR AR it slows them donw at least two seconds for a mag change over a normal mag...I hate to say and, and will suffer a lot of grief for saying it, but I can see some wisdom in the BB for making mag changes slower on some guns...not that a IPDA guy copuldn't just ravage a room in a few seconds, but the normal run of the mill derainged shooter just doesn't strike me as a contest trained individual.

jafount
04-08-2009, 9:41 PM
I see we kinda missed the big stickied thread up top that says:
READ THESE RULES BEFORE POSTING

Otherwise you would have seen this part of the rules:
3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

Wow...did I miss something? I'm not seeing anything here that would be in violation of this rule.

As an aside, given that I am no longer pushing around a patrol car I'll give a different perspective...

I never thought twice about 15 round magazines, possessing an AR 15 or waiting periods. Now, I have to think about bullet buttons, waiting periods and the frustration of not being able to legally possess 15 round magazines. Overall, if you're a normal productive citizen which is pretty obvious at first contact, I could care less if you have a firearm.

As for AW's specifically, an AW is something, at least in my opinion that someone uses against someone else. It's NOT something that has a pistol grip and detachable magazine.

As a side note, Synergy's example is somewhat scary. It's so very easy to get jaded as an LEO so it's important to maintain your perspective. A fireman with an AR 15 is NOT the guy you need to concern yourself with.

jafount
04-08-2009, 9:46 PM
As to the bullet button...I can see that a bullet button would really slow down a shooter intent on mass murder...in contests where folks use a 22LR AR it slows them donw at least two seconds for a mag change over a normal mag...I hate to say and, and will suffer a lot of grief for saying it, but I can see some wisdom in the BB for making mag changes slower on some guns...not that a IPDA guy copuldn't just ravage a room in a few seconds, but the normal run of the mill derainged shooter just doesn't strike me as a contest trained individual.

As opposed to leveling crowds of people with some 00 buck shot from a good old fashioned scattergun. I mean you could just keep going and going if you're a decent combat loader.

CaliTheKid
04-08-2009, 9:55 PM
I just bought an AR with a bullet button today so I'd say that pretty much sums up my view on them.

I think gun control does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I think that law abiding gun owners who allow their guns to be stolen put guns into the hands of criminals.

bubbapug1
04-08-2009, 10:02 PM
Good point calithekid..I have two solid safes epoxied into the floor with 1/2 SS anchors, two dogs, a high tech alarm system, and very alert neighbors, what else can I do??

Blue
04-08-2009, 10:08 PM
I actually had a GREAT run in with the county Sheriff Deputies here last weekend. They arrested some tweakers for possesion and counterfiet money, and there was anywhere between 8-10 officers just standing around in my front yard (perp pulled over infront of my house). I had a 20 yard dumpster that I was filling up with spring cleaning, and got to chatting with 3 of the cops. All 3 of them agreed that the general population needs to be armed. The one cop straight up said something along the lines of, "I don't care what you own, as long as you don't bring yourself into the wrong kind of spotlight." We got to talking about 50BMG's, and AW's, and then I mentioned OLL's. They said that they were aware of them and that if you're a "good guy" you have nothing to worry about.

Doheny
04-08-2009, 10:11 PM
Now I don't know if he was just trying to be cavalier since I was a round-a-bout coworker. That statement is just wrong.

Hey Brother,

He just didn't score high enough on the test...that's why he's a cop and not a FF.

bluestaterebel
04-08-2009, 10:20 PM
Hey Brother,

He just didn't score high enough on the test...that's why he's a cop and not a FF.

didn't take long for you to break the rules. why am i not surprised.

Synergy
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
As a side note, Synergy's example is somewhat scary. It's so very easy to get jaded as an LEO so it's important to maintain your perspective. A fireman with an AR 15 is NOT the guy you need to concern yourself with.

Regardless if I am fireman or not. If I am in a wife beater, tat'ed and sagging my jeans and own a AR, I shouldn't be taken in "to find something" if I have done nothing wrong. I am hoping the LEO I talked to wasn't the majority in his dept.

Its perspective. Regardless how I look if I am in BFE, shooting with no one around. I should not be hassled. Then again if I am clean cut, wearing an Armani suit with a AR over my shoulder walking into high rise in downtown LA, I would expect to be detained.

I find some LEO's just dont want to take the time to comprehend the law and would just refer it to the DA.

bubbapug1
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
no interservice squabbles please...I do think doheny was making his comment in jest...We all know if he had scored really low he would have been a congressman.

Doheny
04-08-2009, 10:27 PM
didn't take long for you to break the rules. why am i not surprised.

Geeze, someone's sensitive.

:)

Synergy
04-08-2009, 10:29 PM
Hey Brother, He just didn't score high enough on the test...that's why he's a cop and not a FF.


didn't take long for you to break the rules. why am i not surprised.

C'mon we cant have a few jabs, between friends?... :43:

I was going to be a cop, mom said I would have ended up in jail, for beating up criminals, she was right. So I became a fireman.

OXLTEvar3vo

bluestaterebel
04-08-2009, 10:34 PM
Many LEOs are ill informed. I'm a fireman and went into my local police station, while I was on duty in my uniform. I saw a LEO magazine on the counter talking about .223 rifles for patrol duty. It had the AR's, HK 416, Mini 14 etc... I showed the pic of the AR to the Lt. and asked if I had this what would you do?

He said we would take you in.

I said "What if I am California legal" We will still take you in, run you and the gun. I have the PC in my gun bag explaining the legality. His statement blew my mind. "Thats OK we will find something to nail you with!"

Now I don't know if he was just trying to be cavalier since I was a round-a-bout coworker. That statement is just wrong.

your'e a fireman in L.A.? what station did you walk into?

Gator Monroe
04-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Some Leo's (Especially Higher up's) are commited Anti's :eek:

bluestaterebel
04-08-2009, 10:39 PM
C'mon we cant have a few jabs, between friends?... :43:

I was going to be a cop, mom said I would have ended up in jail, for beating up criminals, she was right. So I became a fireman.

OXLTEvar3vo


it seems to me that maybe that was exactly what the Lieutenant was doing with you

bluestaterebel
04-08-2009, 10:43 PM
no interservice squabbles please...I do think doheny was making his comment in jest...

Noo, didn't use smileys;)

Gator Monroe
04-08-2009, 10:48 PM
Some Leo's (Especially Higher up's) are commited Anti's :eek:

See above !:sleeping:

bluestaterebel
04-08-2009, 11:02 PM
Gator Monroe, you are quoting yourself. are you referring to me as an anti?

jrsportssupply
04-08-2009, 11:04 PM
...

I've never thought that guns were a contributing factor in crime. Criminals use whatever is at hand to do their deeds with. If they don't have a gun, then a knife, screwdriver or a big rock will do. Gun control only works on honest people, not criminals.

...

I hear the same thing from just about every LEO that comes into my shop. The problem is not the guns, it's the criminals. The few cops that disagree with that sentiment are usually new, and get an education from their seasoned coworkers.

Too bad we can't get some retired LEOs to run for office...

duscati
04-09-2009, 2:27 AM
:clap: Raise your hand if your name starts with an S, ends with a T, and you ride a ducati!!! :clap:

Small world!!

P.S. Thanks again for the shock and o-rings brother.

gd-bh
04-09-2009, 6:29 AM
Interesting thread...thanks for the insights. But as someone already pointed out, it seems there are a lot of senior management LEO's who are anti gun. Is this purely because at that level these folks are so far removed from reality that they just look for the "easy answer", and have forgotten where they came from, or are they just playing the political game?

r08ert209cali
04-09-2009, 6:55 AM
Interesting thread...thanks for the insights. But as someone already pointed out, it seems there are a lot of senior management LEO's who are anti gun. Is this purely because at that level these folks are so far removed from reality that they just look for the "easy answer", and have forgotten where they came from, or are they just playing the political game?

It seams to me and I'm no expert. that they are playing the political game. I mean it dosen't matter the career choice most do what it takes to get to the top that's human nature. At some point they must get removed from reality. what we need is some moles to go in break things up.

Then theres the fact that an anti is an anti.

As far as the guys on the street who do it right god speed.

AaronHorrocks
04-09-2009, 7:51 AM
Imagine if there hadn't have been a civilian to lend assault weapons to LAPD during the infamous north hollywood shootout!

I would have told them that they needed to wait 10 days. :p

desmark6
04-09-2009, 8:11 AM
I am pretty new at this job, only been "on the streets" for about 2 years now. What I am seeing in my fellow patrol officers seems to be more of a training issue then a dislike of AW's. While I have not run into a "Cal Legal" type AW on a call for service yet, just discussing it with fellow officers it has become apparent that the laws themself have become confusing and cause issues for them to figure out in the field.

My department has been pretty good about publishing information on the bullet buttons and briefing it during roll call. However, it was just in written word, so there is some misunderstanding about what is actually OK and what isn't.

It took me quite awhile to understand all of it, OLL's, Radlocks, Bullet Button, 10/30 magazines etc. etc. and I am on here reading it a lot.

In one of the other posts I saw someone put that LEO's would rather let the DA figure it out. Thats not entirely true. One thing to kep in mind however, is we do not have a OLL identification cheat sheet in field etc. etc.

I think the bottom line is, and I speak only for myself here, is that if I am investigating you and the firearm that you have in your possession then you were up to no good anyway. I don't go to the local shooting ranges and gun shops just looking for some fella to jack up because of the gun he has.

biglou
04-09-2009, 8:42 AM
I just bought an AR with a bullet button today so I'd say that pretty much sums up my view on them.

I think gun control does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I think that law abiding gun owners who allow their guns to be stolen put guns into the hands of criminals.

I agree with you on gun control not affecting criminals. However, I don't think law abiding people 'allow' their guns to be stolen. Someone that owns 2 or 3 firearms won't spend $1,500.00 on a gun safe. The reason the higher ups in L/E become anti-gun is purely political. Some of these guys would like to become a CLEO and in Cali being anti is the only way some cities/counties will appoint anyone.

GenLee
04-09-2009, 8:48 AM
I am pretty new at this job, only been "on the streets" for about 2 years now. What I am seeing in my fellow patrol officers seems to be more of a training issue then a dislike of AW's. While I have not run into a "Cal Legal" type AW on a call for service yet, just discussing it with fellow officers it has become apparent that the laws themself have become confusing and cause issues for them to figure out in the field.

My department has been pretty good about publishing information on the bullet buttons and briefing it during roll call. However, it was just in written word, so there is some misunderstanding about what is actually OK and what isn't.

It took me quite awhile to understand all of it, OLL's, Radlocks, Bullet Button, 10/30 magazines etc. etc. and I am on here reading it a lot.

In one of the other posts I saw someone put that LEO's would rather let the DA figure it out. Thats not entirely true. One thing to kep in mind however, is we do not have a OLL identification cheat sheet in field etc. etc.

I think the bottom line is, and I speak only for myself here, is that if I am investigating you and the firearm that you have in your possession then you were up to no good anyway. I don't go to the local shooting ranges and gun shops just looking for some fella to jack up because of the gun he has.

Maybe addressing your superiors and peers alike with the flowchart (found here http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf) would help you guys at roll call and in the field as well? Just a thought.

Gator Monroe
04-09-2009, 9:00 AM
Gator Monroe, you are quoting yourself. are you referring to me as an anti?

Are you higher in rank than Captain or assistant Chief ?:confused:

Kestryll
04-09-2009, 9:50 AM
I see we kinda missed the big stickied thread up top that says:
READ THESE RULES BEFORE POSTING

Otherwise you would have seen this part of the rules:
3. This is NOT a place to air your dislike of the Government, Law Enforcement, LEOs in general or the law in general. Doing so here will result in losing access to this forum.

Wow...did I miss something? I'm not seeing anything here that would be in violation of this rule.

Just to clarify, what is posted there now is my edit of the post.
The original post was a completely off topic complaint about the legal and justice system.

I deleted the content and left a warning.

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 9:57 AM
I agree with you on gun control not affecting criminals. However, I don't think law abiding people 'allow' their guns to be stolen. Someone that owns 2 or 3 firearms won't spend $1,500.00 on a gun safe. The reason the higher ups in L/E become anti-gun is purely political. Some of these guys would like to become a CLEO and in Cali being anti is the only way some cities/counties will appoint anyone.

It's that exact attitude that is arming criminals day in and day out.

If you don't put them in a safe you are knowingly creating a situation where criminals can take your guns. And you don't have to buy a $1500 safe to secure your weapons. Buy a $700 and bolt that mother to the floor and you just propperly secured your weapon from most thieves. Just stop being cheap and lazy and do it.

Almost all the burglary calls I used to go on for stolen guns were "I had it in my nightstand, dresser drawer, under my bed". And then they ask me where I think it will turn up, and I would answer truthfully "We'll find a bad guy with it hopefully not at a crime scene". And at that moment-- it sinks in to these good law abiding citizens that they just became a part of the criminal food chain. And always-- they finish up with saying "I'm going to go right out and buy a safe."

bubbapug1
04-09-2009, 10:06 AM
A safe will slow them down, but with a high speed grinder and an abrasvie wheel its not going to take them longer than 15 minutes max to cut right through that safe. Safes are to keep the kids and the angry spouse (I'm sorry honey, but I need that 35th gun) at bay and away from harms way.

Gator Monroe
04-09-2009, 10:08 AM
The Tony Soprano False wall/Hidden Lazy Susan rifle rack is a great option !:thumbsup:

Tillers_Rule
04-09-2009, 10:21 AM
Jails and prisons should be harsh places that you don't want to go back to, not "gray bar hotels" with "3 hots and a cot", commissary, a well-appointed exercise yard, and programs to pass the time. All cells should be solitary so prison gangs can't play their games. Don't like it? Then don't come to jail!

How the ACLU would howl... but I bet the recidivism rate would go down.

Totally agree. And rather than sit in a cell fro 23 hours a day, how about putting them to work 10-12 hours a day, doing something constructive for the community?

Gator Monroe
04-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Totally agree. And rather than sit in a cell fro 23 hours a day, how about putting them to work 10-12 hours a day, doing something constructive for the community?

ALL OF THEM ? (including the ones of color ?////)

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
A safe will slow them down, but with a high speed grinder and an abrasvie wheel its not going to take them longer than 15 minutes max to cut right through that safe. Safes are to keep the kids and the angry spouse (I'm sorry honey, but I need that 35th gun) at bay and away from harms way.

Very few thieves have high speed grinders and abrasive wheels when breaking into homes. If you loose you gun to one who does you did your part in protecting it.

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
The Tony Soprano False wall/Hidden Lazy Susan rifle rack is a great option !:thumbsup:

LOL-- :thumbsup:

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 10:41 AM
Totally agree. And rather than sit in a cell fro 23 hours a day, how about putting them to work 10-12 hours a day, doing something constructive for the community?

Hell yeah. States broke and it seems like we have a free workforce. Let's put 'em to work!

CAL.BAR
04-09-2009, 11:07 AM
I am pretty new at this job, only been "on the streets" for about 2 years now.

I think the bottom line is, and I speak only for myself here, is that if I am investigating you and the firearm that you have in your possession then you were up to no good anyway. I don't go to the local shooting ranges and gun shops just looking for some fella to jack up because of the gun he has.

Desmark6 - that's not what we are worried about either. I haven't heard too many stories of police circling the ranges looking for trouble. It's the innocent traffic stop of the guy with the Cal Guns sticker in his back window on the way to/from the range with his OLL's and lots of ammo. THEN what do/should you do? THAT'S what we worry about. Even without PC, many(most) officer's blood pressure goes up when firearms are around (from what most encounters and other tell us) so. . . I think the call of the OP's question was "when you see these "evil AW/OLL's" on the street - do you treat it the same as if you see a standard revolver or bolt action hunting rifle?"

AaronHorrocks
04-09-2009, 11:41 AM
Very few thieves have high speed grinders and abrasive wheels when breaking into homes. If you loose you gun to one who does you did your part in protecting it.

Must gun owners are handy men, and the thieves can find these sorts of tools in the garage of the home they break into. They don't have to bring any with them.

desmark6
04-09-2009, 12:10 PM
djandj.......I can only speak for myself, but the way I train and conduct my self on calls, is that there is ALWAYS a gun present, thats due to it being on my hip. The presence of a gun does not automatically get me "wired up". It would depend on the totality of the circumastances.

If it is a law abiding Joe citizen, more than likely I would not even know they had a gun due to it being transported in a safe/legal manner that I would not discover during the conduct of a traffic stop.

I am not saying I would not look into it IF I HAPPENDED TO SEE THE GUN in plain sight in the passenger compartment of the vehicle. However, if all of the laws and rules are being followed no harm, no foul.

As far as AW's are concerned, IF i saw it, in the vehicle, and the magazine was or was not in it, I would inspect the weapon to ensure it was in comliance with current law (bullet button, Maglock, BEING TRANSPORTED UNLOADED etc) Again, if everything checks out, No Harm, No Foul.

Even though I am a gun enthusiast, hunter, reloader and all, when I am on duty it is my job to enforce the law. If there is no infraction/breaking of the law no worries.

If there was some minor discrepancy with the weapon or method of transportation or whatever, the investigating officer alway has discretion as to what he/she wants/will do about it. That goes into the spirit of the law vs. letter of the law.

As far as me treating them the same as any other type of firearm, well......yes and no, from an officer safety stand point, then yes, as far as an investigation, well I suppose, there is just more for us to look into besides if the firearm is registerd to you, stolen etc. we have to verify OLL and all of that.

Long winded answer and about as clear as mud I suppose, but thats the best I can do without a specific set of cricumstances as to the situation/persons background/ and all of that.

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Must gun owners are handy men, and the thieves can find these sorts of tools in the garage of the home they break into. They don't have to bring any with them.

You are grabbing at straws to prove a point thats not correct.

AaronHorrocks
04-09-2009, 12:30 PM
You are grabbing at straws to prove a point thats not correct.

Really? Cause I have high speed grinders and abrasive wheels in my garage. :eek:
Maybe I should lock those in a safe too? :rolleyes:

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 12:50 PM
Now you are getting defensive but it does not change the fact that you are making a weak argument.

I have never seen nor heard about a residential burglary where the thief used the owners power tools to drill a safe to get their guns. If you in your experience in law enforcement have seen a slew of these cases, I will stand corrected.

kmr1631
04-09-2009, 1:46 PM
I have been a Police Officer for about 5 years and truly believe California would be a better place if CCW was granted to law abiding citizens. I am probably one of the few Officers at my large department that could look at a rifle and know if it is legal or not. I have been called several times to check weapons out to see if they are actual AW's or not.

I think the most irritating thing for me is irresponsible gun owners, which has been touched on briefly here. There is nothing more frustrating than taking a residential burglary where 10 handguns were stolen from a dresser drawer or similar. I have NEVER taken a burglary from a residence where a safe was broken into... in fact I have taken multiple burglaries where there has been full sized safes bolted down and they were never even touched. I can't even recall a single theft of firearms from a house where a safe was deployed and defeated.

I can recall one time where there was a home owner who had a beautiful safe that would have prevented the Terminator from getting in but he left his rifles outside on a desk. SO his home gets burglarized and he loses two rifles because he couldn't keep them in the safe like a responsible adult.

So in short I have no issue with anyone possessing firearms for whatever legal reason they want them for. What I do have an issue with is all of these adults who are too cheap to purchase a real deterrent such as a safe.

CAL.BAR
04-09-2009, 2:17 PM
I think the most irritating thing for me is irresponsible gun owners, which has been touched on briefly here. There is nothing more frustrating than taking a residential burglary where 10 handguns were stolen from a dresser drawer or similar. I have NEVER taken a burglary from a residence where a safe was broken into... in fact I have taken multiple burglaries where there has been full sized safes bolted down and they were never even touched. I can't even recall a single theft of firearms from a house where a safe was deployed and defeated.

I can recall one time where there was a home owner who had a beautiful safe that would have prevented the Terminator from getting in but he left his rifles outside on a desk. SO his home gets burglarized and he loses two rifles because he couldn't keep them in the safe like a responsible adult.

So in short I have no issue with anyone possessing firearms for whatever legal reason they want them for. What I do have an issue with is all of these adults who are too cheap to purchase a real deterrent such as a safe.

Amen - never mind the grinding tool nonsense. Get a good safe - put guns inside - no problems no losing your weapons.

biglou
04-09-2009, 2:18 PM
It's that exact attitude that is arming criminals day in and day out.

If you don't put them in a safe you are knowingly creating a situation where criminals can take your guns. And you don't have to buy a $1500 safe to secure your weapons. Buy a $700 and bolt that mother to the floor and you just propperly secured your weapon from most thieves. Just stop being cheap and lazy and do it.

Almost all the burglary calls I used to go on for stolen guns were "I had it in my nightstand, dresser drawer, under my bed". And then they ask me where I think it will turn up, and I would answer truthfully "We'll find a bad guy with it hopefully not at a crime scene". And at that moment-- it sinks in to these good law abiding citizens that they just became a part of the criminal food chain. And always-- they finish up with saying "I'm going to go right out and buy a safe."

In a ideal world that's what would happen. But then if it were ideal, you wouldn't have to worry about some scumbag breaking into your house. For the smash and grabbers that cheap security cabinet would work. But it won't stop the burglery tools. Was the owner of San Jose Guns Works being cheap and lazy ?

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 2:37 PM
We are talking about residential burglaries primarily - not a well planned commercial heist which is clearly the exception not the rule.

You can argue this any way you want but you are wrong. It is what it is. People don't lock up their guns, they get stolen. People do lock up their guns, they don't. Stop trying to make excuses for poor judgement and lack of responsibility of ownership. You don't lock up your gun, you are part of cycle of arming criminals.

biglou
04-09-2009, 3:04 PM
It's not an argument. It's simple fact. Look, my house is alarmed/monitored. I have a gun safe. And I have a dog that will rip your face off. I didn't start out that way. My old apartment manager would not appreciate me drilling into the floors or walls. Most people on this site have more than a couple of firearms and are doing everything to protect theirs. The outlaws on the street don't want AR's with bullet buttons. They don't care about staying in compliance with the law. There are to many restrictions on law abiding citizens and the criminal is protected with more rights. Maybe you should run for office and then you can pass a law to force law abiders to be responsible.

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 3:32 PM
What is a simple fact? Your post made no sense.

biglou
04-09-2009, 4:30 PM
It is what it is. And that makes sense ? It's the criminal who puts the gun on the street, not the victim of a residential robbery. You have it all twisted. This is getting away from the OP.

Ron-Solo
04-09-2009, 4:53 PM
In 30 years of law enforcement I have never encountered a residential burglary where a safe was breached to steal guns. Only one where they made any attempt, in it wasn't very good.

Most residential burglaries are committed by tweekers and juvenile delinquients looking for stuff they can turn into money or drugs quickly. Guns letf in nightstands, closets or under matresses are easy targets. Most people don't even have a record of the serial numbers to enter into the system as stolen. With handguns we can usually locate a DROS record if it was purchased recently and went thru a dealer. Prior to the requirement that private transfers go thru a dealer, it was much harder to locate a serial number. It's a pain in the *****, but there is some benefit to it. Rifles are almost impossible to get serial numbers on it. My partner recently got called by another agency regarding a gun that his father had stolen from him 19 years ago and had the serial number. He had an unusual last name and the officer from the other agency did a little detective work and located him. The gun was returned and surprisingly, was in pretty good condition.

The professional criminal with the skills to bust open a good gun safe is rare and usually won't waste their time on a residential job unless they know that what they're going after is worth the effort. They are the ones who hit gun stores where the liklihood of a good score is greater.

Record your serial numbers, keep those in a safe place (I keep an extra copy in my locker at work), invest in a decent gun safe, and don't advertise what you have.

Aloha!
:gunsmilie:

CaliTheKid
04-09-2009, 5:15 PM
Typical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNtTX_VaEzk

Not Typical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONHHdjyyVHo

Regulus
04-09-2009, 5:27 PM
As a current LEO who was attacked 20 years ago with a AK47, I still don't blame the AW. The 3 guys who opened fire on my partner and I were hard core criminals who STOLE their guns from honest people.... Ron :thumbsup:

Hey Ron... was this in Downey? A buddy from my academy class was hit just like this in 1990.

I (personally) owned AW's when I was an LEO and didn't have a problem with anyone owning them if legal.

Jonathan Doe
04-09-2009, 5:44 PM
Most AW type guns I see at my office came in when there are some questions on legality. Of those guns, vast majority of them are in fact assault weapons for various reasons. I rarely see guns come in for AW determination turned out to be non-AW. Which means, the LEOs on the street have fairly decent knowledge on AW.

The other aspect of the lab exam is full auto and silencer determination. I believe they come to my office because the LEO's really cannot test the guns on the street, because they have to test fire them to be sure. Of those guns, many are determned to be non machine guns and non silencers.

jwest
04-09-2009, 6:24 PM
I am wondering how LEO's view the OLL Book produced by the folks at Calguns - I think it is great. The letter from the Sacramento Police Dept. is especially helpful - here is the link:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=143827&highlight=quick+reference+law

Hope this isn't a repeat as I haven't read the entire thread.

Thanks in advance,
jwest

fullrearview
04-09-2009, 8:22 PM
I think BB's are stupid!!!! Ingenuous, but stupid.

our "gun laws" make the average citizen a victim, or a criminal. A victim if they don't protect themselves, and a criminal if they do,even if it was justifiable.

Guns prevent crime more way more often than create it.

bubbapug1
04-09-2009, 11:25 PM
Bullet buttons have their place.

1. They allow us to have Ar15s which we couldn't have otherwise.

2. They actually would slow down a nutcase who was spraying a school...a AR bullet button not so much, but a raddlock is really a pain, and slows one down considerably.

As to criminals stealing guns, I think the LEO's here speak from experience...get a safe at least, and put the guns in it. I also have caught my neighbors kids trying to rip off my guns, or grab a peek at them. They also were trying to pry open my garage cabinets (locked) to grab my ammo...it wasn't a question of cash, it was one of teenage boys who wanted to shoot guns...I didn't bust them to the police, but I did tell them the next time they would be turned in

As to criminals not wanting AR's with BB's...I am not sold on that theory. It takes less than 5 minutes to convert a BB AR to a Non BB ar..if you have ever installed a BB you know its super easy to do so.

From the posts it sounds like the majority of the calgun LEO's have no problem with AR's...but I still wonder about the non gun fan LEO's, it would be interesting to see how many support the ownership of BB AR's in the state

AaronHorrocks
04-10-2009, 7:34 AM
2. They actually would slow down a nutcase who was spraying a school...a AR bullet button not so much, but a raddlock is really a pain, and slows one down considerably.

So they'd commit a bunch of murders, but keep thier rifle in a legal config?
Sorry, no dice.

CaliTheKid
04-10-2009, 8:57 AM
Most of the mental midgets I have dealt with would probably have no idea what a bullet button was and break the gun trying to figure out how it worked.

bubbapug1
04-10-2009, 10:59 AM
So they'd commit a bunch of murders, but keep thier rifle in a legal config?
Sorry, no dice.


Thats not what I said...A bullet button slows down the reloading process. Period. I am not sure if that was the intent when they wrote teh law, I think the intent was to ban AR's in general, but there is some wisdom to limiting the number of rounds in a mag and in limiting how easy it is to reload that mag...even goose hunting benefits when mags are limited to 3 rounds..or the geese would feel like B17's over Berlin...the sky busting used to be relaly bad when people had large mags.

You really twisted my comments to come up with your response.

CAL.BAR
04-10-2009, 11:38 AM
I though this was a great question, but after reading many of the very positive comments by officers about how they are all for private gun rights and would have no problem with "normal people" having them and that they really aren't personally against guns etc. why is it that we live in fear of the police seeing our AW"s and OLL's ? Furthermore, after seeing how many officers chose to ignore small amounts of MJ when searching or conducting stops, if the officers have no problem with OLL's and don't really want to confiscate them why are we petrified about getting stopped with our OLL's and why isn't this a non-issue like MJ etc? (felony wobbler notwithstanding I suppose)

r08ert209cali
04-10-2009, 11:48 AM
I though this was a great question, but after reading many of the very positive comments by officers about how they are all for private gun rights and would have no problem with "normal people" having them and that they really aren't personally against guns etc. why is it that we live in fear of the police seeing our AW"s and OLL's ? Furthermore, after seeing how many officers chose to ignore small amounts of MJ when searching or conducting stops, if the officers have no problem with OLL's and don't really want to confiscate them why are we petrified about getting stopped with our OLL's and why isn't this a non-issue like MJ etc? (felony wobbler notwithstanding I suppose)

Because only a few leos come here to learn and share our love of guns and there sporting usage. many are not even into guns. How many of your coworkers are into guns Leos?

Gator Monroe
04-10-2009, 11:51 AM
So they'd commit a bunch of murders, but keep thier rifle in a legal config?
Sorry, no dice.

Are ALL felons who are caught with Firearms(sepecially in a vehicle or on their person) sent directly to jail (no bail/trial) or are they treated like Drug Dealers & such ?

CAL.BAR
04-10-2009, 1:13 PM
Because only a few leos come here to learn and share our love of guns and there sporting usage. many are not even into guns. How many of your coworkers are into guns Leos?

Kind of my backhanded point here. While there are a few LEO's who post here and do enjoy the RKBA and support other non-LEO's doing so, the vast majority (it would seam by experience ) would rather we didn't have them and will do (or allow) anything to be done to keep us from having them (as long as they can still get them)

It is well known that officers have a great latitude in the field as to what they seize and arrest for. Guns, it seams, always get top priority for a trip downtown. LEO's tell us if we're wrong. I mean we sit around and pull our hair out about legal minutia like making the US part count to avoid 922r (for you HK fans) - I mean - how many federal 922r arrests and prosecutions have we seen? Right?

chris
04-10-2009, 1:26 PM
Kind of my backhanded point here. While there are a few LEO's who post here and do enjoy the RKBA and support other non-LEO's doing so, the vast majority (it would seam by experience ) would rather we didn't have them and will do (or allow) anything to be done to keep us from having them (as long as they can still get them)

that is main thing i do not like about some LEO that are out there. if it is legal for average joe to have it then why bother them? what i do not understand let alone condone is that kind of behavior that LE should have certain firearms and the general populace do not. no insult to those that support legal firearm use and possession and know firearms laws.

It is well known that officers have a great latitude in the field as to what they seize and arrest for. Guns, it seams, always get top priority for a trip downtown. LEO's tell us if we're wrong. I mean we sit around and pull our hair out about legal minutia like making the US part count to avoid 922r (for you HK fans) - I mean - how many federal 922r arrests and prosecutions have we seen? Right?

i have a question with the complexity of gun laws this state has and given there are many gun owners should'nt LE be more knowledgeble of these types laws? i also understand there are many others laws too. but firearms laws is what concern us the most.

i ask this since most gun owners know more about firearms laws than LE. hope that makes sense. it seems that average gun owners in this state have to have a law degree to understand the crappy laws here. also on the flip side California gun owners know more about gun laws than most in the rest of the country.

eta34
04-10-2009, 3:41 PM
Couldn't care less about 'em. The good guys won't hurt me with them. The bad guys will steal them to hurt me. Laws don't work.

AaronHorrocks
04-10-2009, 4:45 PM
Thats not what I said...A bullet button slows down the reloading process. Period. I am not sure if that was the intent when they wrote teh law, I think the intent was to ban AR's in general, but there is some wisdom to limiting the number of rounds in a mag and in limiting how easy it is to reload that mag...even goose hunting benefits when mags are limited to 3 rounds..or the geese would feel like B17's over Berlin...the sky busting used to be relaly bad when people had large mags.

You really twisted my comments to come up with your response.

This nice young lady disagrees with you too:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675

bubbapug1
04-10-2009, 5:01 PM
This nice young lady disagrees with you too:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675

Whats the point your trying to make Aaron???? This is about LEO's and their views about AW's with bullet buttons, not the 2nd amendment in general...although they are somewhat related in my opinion. If you want to go down some esoteric path start another post but stop jamming me on this one.

eta34
04-10-2009, 5:25 PM
i have a question with the complexity of gun laws this state has and given there are many gun owners should'nt LE be more knowledgeble of these types laws? i also understand there are many others laws too. but firearms laws is what concern us the most.

i ask this since most gun owners know more about firearms laws than LE. hope that makes sense. it seems that average gun owners in this state have to have a law degree to understand the crappy laws here. also on the flip side California gun owners know more about gun laws than most in the rest of the country.

Realize that while gun laws concern you the most, it does not concern LEO the most. Realize that during our day to day operations, calls involving a firearm are fairly rare. We are much more likely to deal with tenant/landlord disputes, traffic, domestic disputes, or drug cases than anything dealing with a firearm. As such, a LEO is much more likely to study/know things he deals with on a regular basis. Not an excuse, simply the reality.

yzernie
04-10-2009, 6:33 PM
Hey Brother,

He just didn't score high enough on the test...that's why he's a cop and not a FF.
Real men carry guns, not hose. :eek: :thumbsup:

yzernie
04-10-2009, 7:13 PM
As with the majority of LEOs, I do not have a problem with someone owning a firearm. What I do have a problem with is owning them and not using good judgement and common sense. By that I mean allowing them to be stolen by leaving them on a desk and not locked in the safe right next to the desk, by not recording serial numbers so if they were to be stolen we could get them entered into the system right away, by getting all liquored up and handling firearms or any other situation where good judgement and common sense do not come into play.

That being said, I encourage gun ownership to the members of the community. I also believe CCW, unless convicted of certain crimes, should be allowed. If you abuse that CCW and the responsibilities that go with it, you lose it.

The AW education among the LEOs (especially the younger ones) is a continual struggle. Most of the new hires have (at least at my dept) no military experience, have little life experience and many still live at home with mommy and daddy. Guns were never a part of their lives like they were for us older guys. I regularly give briefing trainings and give cheat sheets to the patrol guys in case I am not around to use as a resource. I know I have made an impact just by the number of calls I get from the kids. They are getting educated, it's just a slow process.


I think BB's are stupid!!!! Ingenuous, but stupid.

our "gun laws" make the average citizen a victim, or a criminal. A victim if they don't protect themselves, and a criminal if they do,even if it was justifiable.
I would adamantly disagree with you that justifiably defending yourself makes you a criminal. Justifiably being the key word.

chris
04-10-2009, 7:21 PM
As with the majority of LEOs, I do not have a problem with someone owning a firearm. What I do have a problem with is owning them and not using good judgement and common sense. By that I mean allowing them to be stolen by leaving them on a desk and not locked in the safe right next to the desk, by not recording serial numbers so if they were to be stolen we could get them entered into the system right away, by getting all liquored up and handling firearms or any other situation where good judgement and common sense do not come into play.

That being said, I encourage gun ownership to the members of the community. I also believe CCW, unless convicted of certain crimes, should be allowed. If you abuse that CCW and the responsibilities that go with it, you lose it.

The AW education among the LEOs (especially the younger ones) is a continual struggle. Most of the new hires have (at least at my dept) no military experience, have little life experience and many still live at home with mommy and daddy. Guns were never a part of their lives like they were for us older guys. I regularly give briefing trainings and give cheat sheets to the patrol guys in case I am not around to use as a resource. I know I have made an impact just by the number of calls I get from the kids. They are getting educated, it's just a slow process.



I would adamantly disagree with you that justifiably defending yourself makes you a criminal. Justifiably being the key word.

glad to see that you are educating the new guys about AW's and firearms laws. this will help in the long run a better relationship with LE and citizens alike. keep up the good work.

chris
04-10-2009, 7:26 PM
Realize that while gun laws concern you the most, it does not concern LEO the most. Realize that during our day to day operations, calls involving a firearm are fairly rare. We are much more likely to deal with tenant/landlord disputes, traffic, domestic disputes, or drug cases than anything dealing with a firearm. As such, a LEO is much more likely to study/know things he deals with on a regular basis. Not an excuse, simply the reality.

i agree there are so many laws that you guys have to know and the rarety of interaction that you have calls with a firearm are rare. but i think education of the laws is a good thing. i do understand that you would be more fluent in the law of what you encounter most that being these types of incidents.

We are much more likely to deal with tenant/landlord disputes, traffic, domestic disputes, or drug cases.

CAL.BAR
04-10-2009, 7:36 PM
Couldn't care less about 'em. The good guys won't hurt me with them. The bad guys will steal them to hurt me. Laws don't work.

True and the rationale behind the gun grabbers is that if we ban them and ban them good they won't be in the hands of the "good guys" to get stolen and used against you. Right? Never mind the fact that a miniscule number of officers have ever come across AW's in the field and few yet have be shot at with them.

CAL.BAR
04-10-2009, 7:38 PM
The AW education among the LEOs (especially the younger ones) is a continual struggle. Most of the new hires have (at least at my dept) no military experience, have little life experience and many still live at home with mommy and daddy. Guns were never a part of their lives like they were for us older guys. I regularly give briefing trainings and give cheat sheets to the patrol guys in case I am not around to use as a resource. I know I have made an impact just by the number of calls I get from the kids. They are getting educated, it's just a slow process.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! from me and all the guys here at CG.

yzernie
04-11-2009, 9:44 AM
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! from me and all the guys here at CG.
You are welcome!! I know there are more of the CG LEO's who are working to educate the youngsters on the AW laws.

Gator Monroe
04-11-2009, 10:00 AM
You are welcome!! I know there are more of the CG LEO's who are working to educate the youngsters on the AW laws.

Too bad you guy's cant educate them on how Great America was in the Post world war 2 period (Especially the 50's & early 60's before Murry the K brought the Beatles over the first time)

chris
04-11-2009, 11:56 AM
You are welcome!! I know there are more of the CG LEO's who are working to educate the youngsters on the AW laws.
please keep doing this education is the best tool that we have and you guys can do that better than we can.

veeklog
04-11-2009, 1:44 PM
You are welcome!! I know there are more of the CG LEO's who are working to educate the youngsters on the AW laws.

most of us think the AW laws in this state are pretty retarded. Most of the older guys I work with have had a lot of life experience and like AW's. We realize they are not only fun to shoot, but in tactical situations like serving warrants, they are a great tool to have. Why should the bad guys have better guns than we do when we hit a door? The problem is that many of us are as restricted as the common CG'er. We have to have BB unless we have AW exceptions or issued AW's through the agency. Most administrators don't like these guns, especially AW's, because of liabilty and political issues. The liability issues can be eliminated with better training, but the political issues is completely different animal.

The only good thing is that the day of hiring people w/o life experience is pretty much over. Two factor contribute to this: (1) people getting out of the military witha lot of life experience; and (2) a bad economy is pushing people with life experince into becoming LEO's. I can honestly say I was a dumb kid hired straight out of college 11 years ago, but those 3 years in uniform was a eye-opening experience. So when I went to O.I. 8 years ago I had the maturity to do my job of an investigator. The difference was that when I was new in either uniform or in O.I. I wanted to learn my job, and continue to still learn new tricks everyday, including all about OLL's. I am in the group of veteran LEO's that statistically, we are the ones to get killed in the line of duty because we get complacent in our everyday duties.So, when I catch myself doing something pretty retarded, I stop, evaluate why I did it, and remind myself to not do it anymore. I am my own worst critic!!

626Tony
04-11-2009, 3:58 PM
I notice that the sheriffs dept has more people skills and dealing with the public. Could it be that they see the worse of the worse in the jails and courts? As opposed to city LEO's where they are thrown out into the public not knowing how to deal with certain situations. I am a civilian and the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept always hears my side first and I can tell renders a decision to let me go or cite me ~ if im in the wrong in in the wrong but city cops like lets sat umm Ontario do they have the same training and people skills after the academy??? can a LEO plz answer??

yzernie
04-11-2009, 4:17 PM
Too bad you guy's cant educate them on how Great America was in the Post world war 2 period (Especially the 50's & early 60's before Murry the K brought the Beatles over the first time)
I am a cop, not a history or economics teacher. I teach them as I described above...as it pertains to real time and real life cop work. :thumbsup:

Stoner
04-11-2009, 8:07 PM
There have been a number of comments here about the higher ranking officers in the department being anti-gun.

One thing to remember is the COP is an elected/appointed and very political position. And the opinion of the COP does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the rank and file line officer that work for him or her. However, most of the Deputy Chiefs, Captains and LT’s will generally fall in line with the line the COP is putting forward.

696k
04-11-2009, 11:38 PM
As an old guy with lots of years on the street and a few more to go, I personally have never had a problem with legally owned AW's. If I recall Patrick Purdy the Stockton shooter was a 5150 and never should have had a firearm to begin with...but instead of attacking the problem with the law our fearless (clueless) legislators made a new law that said what was once good was now bad and therefore all the good people must register...amazing how many didn't.

I try to show our young officers that sometimes it just may be the citizen with a gun who comes running to help you because your backup just isn't close. I am a firm believer that all things flow from the 2nd Ammendment. With out it I doubt we would have the other ammendments we enjoy. But many of our younger officers have not been raised in a "gun" culture having grown up in a world where gun owners are all bad and nobody but LE and military should have guns. That mentality scares the crap out of me.

It has been my experience (29 years now) that badguys use whats available. I have never taken an HK 91 or Colt Hbar off of a bad guy. Ravens, Loricans, stolen Ruger 1022's and an SKS or two but not a majority of the guns that have been banned. Do I feel safer? No. A silly law is NOT going to stop a badguy. That's why they are badguys...

To any who read this I would say purchase and built your Ca. compliant (how silly is that?) AR and make sure it is pointed where it needs to be when it needs to be. NO cop worth his or her salt will tell you we will be there in your time of need. Statistics say we won't. We are reactionary, it is the bane of our existance. We would much rather hunt the badguy but there are so many other things that take our time. We will get there after the smoke has cleared. And hopefully through that smoke we will see you the Goodguy/Goodgal standing tall while the badguy is DRT. (dead right there)

Personally I am not worried so much about the "Red Dawn" scenario but what about a major earthquake here? The system will shut down. Let me say that again, the "system" will shut down. If it's big and it's bad you are on your own. The Govt. will get there...eventaually. Until then it is up to you to do what must be done. My city has over a million in daytime population. There are less than 360 of us and thats if every single officer shows up all at the same time...it isnt going to happen.

With all that I highly encourage each of you to own a firearm. If an AW is not your bag, get a shotgun or a handgun or something...do it legal and do it right. Don't give those that wish to destroy your right any opportunity to use you as an example of what is wrong with gun owners. Make the plans now to be prepared because when the wolf comes chances are there won't be a sheepdog close by.

Just some thoughts from a guy on the wall.

:rant:

yzernie
04-12-2009, 8:57 AM
696k,
Very well put. I'm 30+ in and just a couple left to go. The youngsters you mention and the mentality they possess scare the hell out of me too. Most are good kids willing to learn but that Little League mentality (you're a winner even if you are a dork) just makes my skin crawl!!

Old dogs like us must keep educating the youngsters. I know that was what I wanted as a pup, to have the guys who know to be the ones who educated me. Most of these kids will make us proud. :thumb

Ron-Solo
04-12-2009, 10:41 PM
I notice that the sheriffs dept has more people skills and dealing with the public. Could it be that they see the worse of the worse in the jails and courts? As opposed to city LEO's where they are thrown out into the public not knowing how to deal with certain situations. I am a civilian and the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept always hears my side first and I can tell renders a decision to let me go or cite me ~ if im in the wrong in in the wrong but city cops like lets sat umm Ontario do they have the same training and people skills after the academy??? can a LEO plz answer??

As a 31 year member of the LASD, I did 2 1/2 years working custody before hitting the streets. It cave me a chance to mature, since I was fresh out of college, and I learned how the crooks behaved. I've worked alongside many other law enforcement officers and many work just as well with the public. Our Department has gone to great lenghts to teach our young deputies how to deal with the public. Sometimes it seems like we don't do well, but I think overall we do a pretty good job. When I was an FTO, I always tried to teach my trainees to treat people like they would want a family member treated. That doesn't mean you have to be soft or ineffective in what you do, just do the right thing and treat people fairly.

Just remeber, LEOs are people too. We have good days and bad, and our response can vary from day to day. I've had to tell someone their newborn baby was dead, then 20 minutes later investigate a child abuse case where the parents were so strung out they couldn't even remember how many kids they had. Kind of messes with your mind a little and sometimes it takes a little while to get back on track.

I love my job, but looking forward to retirement in 2 1/2 years. Time to pass the reigns to the next generation and hope we did our part in training them.

:thumbsup:

bluestaterebel
04-13-2009, 11:09 AM
I notice that the sheriffs dept has more people skills and dealing with the public. Could it be that they see the worse of the worse in the jails and courts? As opposed to city LEO's where they are thrown out into the public not knowing how to deal with certain situations. I am a civilian and the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept always hears my side first and I can tell renders a decision to let me go or cite me ~ if im in the wrong in in the wrong but city cops like lets sat umm Ontario do they have the same training and people skills after the academy??? can a LEO plz answer??

just curious, how many leo encounters have you had?

CaliTheKid
04-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I notice that the sheriffs dept has more people skills and dealing with the public. Could it be that they see the worse of the worse in the jails and courts? As opposed to city LEO's where they are thrown out into the public not knowing how to deal with certain situations. I am a civilian and the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept always hears my side first and I can tell renders a decision to let me go or cite me ~ if im in the wrong in in the wrong but city cops like lets sat umm Ontario do they have the same training and people skills after the academy??? can a LEO plz answer??

I get that a lot from people who have dealt with LAPD prior to moving into an LASD area. They feel we give better customer service.

bluestaterebel
04-13-2009, 11:18 AM
I get that a lot from people who have dealt with LAPD prior to moving into an LASD area. They feel we give better customer service.

thats intersting because lapd has gone so politically correct. i have had the opposite experience. i usually hear, the sheriffs dont mess around. i mean lasd still walks around with their streamlights that the lapd is not allowed to have.

sgtbuck
04-13-2009, 11:19 AM
As an old guy with lots of years on the street and a few more to go, I personally have never had a problem with legally owned AW's. If I recall Patrick Purdy the Stockton shooter was a 5150 and never should have had a firearm to begin with...but instead of attacking the problem with the law our fearless (clueless) legislators made a new law that said what was once good was now bad and therefore all the good people must register...amazing how many didn't.

I try to show our young officers that sometimes it just may be the citizen with a gun who comes running to help you because your backup just isn't close. I am a firm believer that all things flow from the 2nd Ammendment. With out it I doubt we would have the other ammendments we enjoy. But many of our younger officers have not been raised in a "gun" culture having grown up in a world where gun owners are all bad and nobody but LE and military should have guns. That mentality scares the crap out of me.

It has been my experience (29 years now) that badguys use whats available. I have never taken an HK 91 or Colt Hbar off of a bad guy. Ravens, Loricans, stolen Ruger 1022's and an SKS or two but not a majority of the guns that have been banned. Do I feel safer? No. A silly law is NOT going to stop a badguy. That's why they are badguys...

To any who read this I would say purchase and built your Ca. compliant (how silly is that?) AR and make sure it is pointed where it needs to be when it needs to be. NO cop worth his or her salt will tell you we will be there in your time of need. Statistics say we won't. We are reactionary, it is the bane of our existance. We would much rather hunt the badguy but there are so many other things that take our time. We will get there after the smoke has cleared. And hopefully through that smoke we will see you the Goodguy/Goodgal standing tall while the badguy is DRT. (dead right there)

Personally I am not worried so much about the "Red Dawn" scenario but what about a major earthquake here? The system will shut down. Let me say that again, the "system" will shut down. If it's big and it's bad you are on your own. The Govt. will get there...eventaually. Until then it is up to you to do what must be done. My city has over a million in daytime population. There are less than 360 of us and thats if every single officer shows up all at the same time...it isnt going to happen.

With all that I highly encourage each of you to own a firearm. If an AW is not your bag, get a shotgun or a handgun or something...do it legal and do it right. Don't give those that wish to destroy your right any opportunity to use you as an example of what is wrong with gun owners. Make the plans now to be prepared because when the wolf comes chances are there won't be a sheepdog close by.

Just some thoughts from a guy on the wall.

:rant:


Very good post I totally agree...... :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

CaliTheKid
04-13-2009, 11:46 AM
thats intersting because lapd has gone so politically correct. i have had the opposite experience. i usually hear, the sheriffs dont mess around. i mean lasd still walks around with their streamlights that the lapd is not allowed to have.

Its less about taking care of business--cause we don't mess around-- but more about polite attitude-- and not to diss the lapd-- its just what I have heard from the public.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-28-2009, 11:26 AM
People don't lock up their guns, they get stolen. People do lock up their guns, they don't. Stop trying to make excuses for poor judgement and lack of responsibility of ownership. You don't lock up your gun, you are part of cycle of arming criminals.

Precisely.

It's the 'gun control' I am in favor of: Keeping your stuff locked up a safe.

Do that, and the crooks will be forced to make 'handguns' from sawn-off Ruger 10-22s and zip guns made of galvanized pipe with a nail poking through the end-cap.

It's idiots who get their home burglarized that stored their Sig-Sauer in a shoebox in the closet while they're at work who are most responsible for inadvertently arming violent criminals.

Swatter911
05-02-2009, 10:52 AM
Yzernie and I work for the same agency, we're probably the two biggest "gun guys" on our department when it comes to AWs and educating our coworkers. The new kids are easy, they soak it up, you just have to be patient and teach them well. The real trick is educating the higher ups. They live and work in the administrative world, one that is dominated by law suits, guys getting into trouble and politics. It colors their perceptions and drives a different thought process on certain aspects of things like gun laws. It's often times difficult to get them to shift their perception and understand how their policy decision impacts citizens and line staff.

I don't think the average cop on the street thinks he has much to fear from Armed Joe Citizen. The laws are complex and we do our best to educate our guys and gals everyday so that they are making the right decision when they stop you for that tail light out on your way back from the range.

And yes, we all favor responsible gun ownership. They all should be used safely and stored securely to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.

lrdchivalry
05-03-2009, 10:11 PM
I am wondering how LEO's view the OLL Book produced by the folks at Calguns - I think it is great. The letter from the Sacramento Police Dept. is especially helpful - here is the link:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=143827&highlight=quick+reference+law

Hope this isn't a repeat as I haven't read the entire thread.

Thanks in advance,
jwest


As a federal leo I think it's a great resource. I have 2 copies in my personal library and the pdf saved on my computer.

I am a firm believer in right to carry and believe that all of our other rights are defended by the 2A. Loss of our 2A will result in the loss of our other rights.

1*mike
05-04-2009, 10:13 PM
Look at the last 2 shootings where multiple officers were killed with assault weapons, kinda proves that bans/laws/restrictions don't do much to keep bad people from being bad.

If you are a law abiding/sane person I have no issues with you owning whatever ya like to shoot. Imagine if there hadn't have been a civilian to lend assault weapons to LAPD during the infamous north hollywood shootout!

true...but all it takes is one 459 Res. and another rifle that will cut through your vest is on the street. I have mixed feelings

1*mike
05-04-2009, 10:17 PM
Precisely.

It's the 'gun control' I am in favor of: Keeping your stuff locked up a safe.

Do that, and the crooks will be forced to make 'handguns' from sawn-off Ruger 10-22s and zip guns made of galvanized pipe with a nail poking through the end-cap.

It's idiots who get their home burglarized that stored their Sig-Sauer in a shoebox in the closet while they're at work who are most responsible for inadvertently arming violent criminals.

Could not be more true...

ca1903
05-05-2009, 9:47 PM
Guarding our own firearms is certainly very important. But the bad guys can always get their hands on guns.

I grew up in Taiwan where the gun was banned since 1950. Even in the military, you have to count all the cases after the range shooting, NOT ONE LESS. But what do the gangsters have?

40 years ago, gangsters had samurai sword vs the police baton.
30 years ago, the criminals attacked the sentry to get the military rifles.
Now, the gangsters had Uzi and all other powerful ones smuggled in and over powered the police still.

when there is $, the criminals would get hands on the tool. We the law-abiding citizens certainly should not "help" them through our negligence. On the other hand, we better be ready to protect ourselves till the cavalry arrive.

7222 Hawker
05-11-2009, 1:51 AM
Many LEOs are ill informed. I'm a fireman and went into my local police station, while I was on duty in my uniform. I saw a LEO magazine on the counter talking about .223 rifles for patrol duty. It had the AR's, HK 416, Mini 14 etc... I showed the pic of the AR to the Lt. and asked if I had this what would you do?

He said we would take you in.

I said "What if I am California legal" We will still take you in, run you and the gun. I have the PC in my gun bag explaining the legality. His statement blew my mind. "Thats OK we will find something to nail you with!"

Now I don't know if he was just trying to be cavalier since I was a round-a-bout coworker. That statement is just wrong.

Thats because you asked an Lt. Ask a beat cop next time an they will probably know the laws.