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Stormfeather
04-08-2009, 4:59 PM
Guys, I wanted to kind of get your opinion on something that has been sitting in the back of my mind for a couple of weeks now since the shootings in the bay area claimed the lives of those officers.
Do you think that when the BART officer goes to trial, and if hes not found guilty, that the bay area will suffer the same type of reprecussions as LA did during the Rodney King Riots? And if so, how prepared do you think your agency is to deal with such a threat? I mean, LAPD was pretty much overwhelmed when those riots hit. I know population wise, I dont think it will be on the same scale, but for arguments sake, what if it does rise up in scale, how will local agencies react, and do you basically have a game plan? I know about the tone-out for all agencies to respond if possible, do you guys think it will get to that level? Thanks for all the honest input.

Jonathan Doe
04-08-2009, 6:19 PM
All agencies have emergency operations plan in place. During the riot in LA, many agencies worked together. I believe we had assistance form national guards also.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-08-2009, 8:41 PM
I think there'll be a riot no matter what the verdict. Some folks will just use that as an excuse. My former agency has a detailed response plan, including mutual aid provisions.

Of course, we all know that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy...

BigDogatPlay
04-08-2009, 9:18 PM
Unless the BART officer is convicted of first degree murder and taken to the nearest streetlamp for execution, I would fully expect there to be trouble to some degree. OPD has, from what I've learned in talking to guys, some pretty solid ops plans. I'm sure they'll get plenty of support from ACSO and CHP to start with. Recall that both ACSO and CHP have been actively patrolling OPD streets for at least a year, maybe two, in an ongoing task force operation supporting OPD.

If Mehserle somehow gets acquitted criminally or takes a minor manslaughter beef, even knowing that he is toast civilly, Oakland will burn. Huge.

Sam1
04-08-2009, 9:19 PM
I'll be at walmart looting all the ammo
:Ivan:




jk live in socal and not worth going to jail over a 10 dollar box of ammo lol

Jason762
04-08-2009, 9:26 PM
Sorry, but there's no way they're going to find him not guilty. Even if he really isn't (and honestly I don't know enough about the incident to judge).

California's just like that...

EDIT:

I'll be at walmart looting all the ammo
:Ivan:




jk live in socal and not worth going to jail over a 10 dollar box of ammo lol

It is if you can sell it on CalGuns for $30 a box! ;)

Ron-Solo
04-08-2009, 9:26 PM
I was on the front lines with the LASD during the King Riots. The Mutual Aid response was massive involving almost every agency in SoCal. The National Guard was there, along with active duty USMC units just back from Desert Storm. One of the biggest problems was communication between agencies. That has improved some, but will always be a problem.

If there is a not guilty verdict in the BART case, I would bet money there will be riots. There have already been violent protests. Every agency in the Bay Area should start training now, and training TOGETHER when possible.

Have a plan for feeding yourself. Every store and restuarant anywhere near the problem was closed. We lived on granola bars and Gatorade for three days. The local Gatorade distributor backed up 2 semi-trucks in the back of the station and unloaded pallets. They didn't ask for a dime and it truely saved our backsides. I will forever be gratefull and only buy Gatorade brands to this day.

It was a wild time. We got shot at more times than I can count, and most of the time never saw the shooter.

I felt bad for the firefighters who got shot at as much (or more) as we did. No body armor, no guns, just guts.

Be ready. It just needs the right spark to set it off.

:thumbsup:

BigDogatPlay
04-08-2009, 9:31 PM
I'll be at walmart looting all the ammo
:Ivan:

So it WAS you that bought it all..... :thumbsup:

jdberger
04-08-2009, 9:51 PM
Sometimes I wonder if Oakland burning is really that bad of an idea....

Think of the redevelopment opportunities.

tyrist
04-08-2009, 11:24 PM
As long as the bay area does not do what Los Angeles did and have the bureau commander come over the air and order Officers to not respond to what was happening (help calls from other units)...then put them in a staging area while the city burns and the firemen are shot at.

If it happens there needs to be a very swift and decisive move from Law Enforcement so the rioters know who is in charge. Also hoping the news media does not continually broadcast how people are looting with impunity would help as well.

fourXfour
04-09-2009, 1:51 AM
Keep in mind this is not the first time this has happened in northern CA. There is established case law that confusing gun and taser is a training issue. It's very difficult to prove the required intent. This is the first time it's been video recorded.

My money is on a manslaughter conviction with a sentence of around 5 years.

That being said, there will be riots. Businesses will probably board up and shut down on the day of the decision.

proudamerican831
04-09-2009, 2:13 AM
deleted

Stormfeather
04-09-2009, 6:01 AM
I was on the front lines with the LASD during the King Riots. The Mutual Aid response was massive involving almost every agency in SoCal. The National Guard was there, along with active duty USMC units just back from Desert Storm. One of the biggest problems was communication between agencies. That has improved some, but will always be a problem.

If there is a not guilty verdict in the BART case, I would bet money there will be riots. There have already been violent protests. Every agency in the Bay Area should start training now, and training TOGETHER when possible.

Have a plan for feeding yourself. Every store and restuarant anywhere near the problem was closed. We lived on granola bars and Gatorade for three days. The local Gatorade distributor backed up 2 semi-trucks in the back of the station and unloaded pallets. They didn't ask for a dime and it truely saved our backsides. I will forever be gratefull and only buy Gatorade brands to this day.

It was a wild time. We got shot at more times than I can count, and most of the time never saw the shooter.

I felt bad for the firefighters who got shot at as much (or more) as we did. No body armor, no guns, just guts.

Be ready. It just needs the right spark to set it off.

:thumbsup:

I was there also. 1/9 out of Camp Horno and Hq !st Mar. I was in the 3 or 4th Humvee from the front that came up the I-5 in that monster convoy. I remember as well all the gatorade that we had. Seemed like you couldnt find a damn glass of water to save your life. . .but there was always gatorade! Yea, was definitely wild times, very "surreal" was the only way I could think of it. Having been thru those times, that is what raises my concerns over the upcoming trial, whenever that may be. Im hoping im home in time, just so I can be there for my family and friends. Ive been stocking up on durable food rations, although I dont think it will be an issue so much as it was in LA. But, as one of the members here clearly stated, "no plan survives first contact with the enemy". So better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Stormfeather
04-09-2009, 6:31 AM
I think there'll be a riot no matter what the verdict. Some folks will just use that as an excuse. My former agency has a detailed response plan, including mutual aid provisions.

Of course, we all know that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy...

I understand people use it as an excuse. I saw it firsthand in LA and in New Orleans as well during Katrina. Definitely not Americas finest moments there.

My main concern I think lies in "what will the response be from local agencies?" The old school days of "One Riot, One Ranger" have pretty much fallen by the wayside, as im sure that Officer in Modesto or Stockton found out. When you stop and think about it in a numbers aspect, to be totally honest, what can 1 officer do against 10 angry rioting protestors, and then take that out proportionately, 10 officers vs 100, 100 officers vs 1000, or unfortunately, 1000 officers, vs 10000 rioting angry protesters. Sure you can use the ladder of escalation, but at what point does that become a weeapon against the department? (especially if innocents get caught in the crossfire)
Ive got no problem with macing/tasing people when I am outnumbered, and I have no problem with drawing a sidearm to defend my life and the lives of others. But what do you do when you are hopelessly outnumbered? I mean, as a Law Enforcement Agency, you have different protocols than we as soldiers do, if we are outnumbered, its a matter of . . . . . ." if im going down. . .im taking as many as I can with me". We can say that because we are dealing with enemy combatants, Law Enforcement Officers on the other hand are dealing with American Citizens. Where is the line going to be drawn, and at what costs? Some folks say that LAPD tactics of pulling back was a bad call, myself on the other hand, think that possibly it wasnt as bad many think. The call to withdrawal may have saved lives, while the costs of property damage was much higher, but in the end, what is worth more, property or human lives?

bigmike82
04-09-2009, 10:11 AM
"what is worth more, property or human lives? "
IMHO...depends on which human lives?

LEOs? Most certainly. Worth far more.

Scumbag rioters/looters? Absolutely not.

Gator Monroe
04-09-2009, 10:16 AM
As long as the bay area does not do what Los Angeles did and have the bureau commander come over the air and order Officers to not respond to what was happening (help calls from other units)...then put them in a staging area while the city burns and the firemen are shot at.

If it happens there needs to be a very swift and decisive move from Law Enforcement so the rioters know who is in charge. Also hoping the news media does not continually broadcast how people are looting with impunity would help as well.

If 100 officers would have cordoned off & held ground Florence & Normandy and had another 75 to 100 officers show up as back up promptly the riot could have been delayed or even stopped in it's infancy ! And the NG was deployed for almost 2 full days without Ammo ,WHAT A DEBACLE

Steyrlp10
04-10-2009, 12:37 PM
"what is worth more, property or human lives? "
IMHO...depends on which human lives?

LEOs? Most certainly. Worth far more.

Scumbag rioters/looters? Absolutely not.


Amen.

Steyrlp10
04-10-2009, 12:41 PM
I had to travel through Berkeley on my way home when the Rodney King fiasco was going on. What a mess!

A majority of the nimrods destroying property didn't give a hoot about Rodney King -- all too much like the Oakland mentality.

The first worry on my mind is the safety of the cops working to control stupid people. I come from a family of cops, so I'm biased. It never ceases to amaze me that the people who spit on cops are the first ones to scream for help when someone is kicking their hiney.

trendar5
04-10-2009, 3:48 PM
He won't be convicted of murder. Manslaughter and/or negligent discharge probably. OPD and everybody else will take a stand and use force when the idiots try to tear things up. It will be kept in check, and won't get as bad as L.A.

Stoner
04-10-2009, 9:15 PM
The demographics of Oakland have changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years. The Hispanics now well outnumber the black population. I’m guessing if they make the decision to contain the problem, they will be able to do that. They made decide to give them an area to burn down, as one person said, urban renewal.

My hope is the officer is not convicted of any crime, as I believe it was a training issue. We have come a long way since Rodney King, I just hope we have come far enough that we do not have to sacrifice any more officers to appease public opinion.

Tankhatch
04-11-2009, 10:33 AM
It will not be the locals, whom will do the major damage. It will be the scums that are NOT locals, that will be doing the deeds.

50 Freak
04-13-2009, 4:50 PM
I was in LA during the King riots. I marched with the rioters in DT LA. I was there with camera in hand and taking pics of all the damage.

To this day, I still remember watching the Sheriffs standing in a line around the Sheriffs building in DT LA watching the rioters tant and burn all the restuarants, shops around them. They had orders not to leave the building so basically did nothing. Made me a true believer in self reliance in a SHTF scenario. 911 will not help you in that situation....better to have a 1911 instead.

Oakland is doomed to burning unless that officer is dragged out in the street, drawn and quartered in public. Even then, we'll have Sharpton and J.Jackson saying the "white man got off easy".

Best thing to do if you are in Oakland is load up on ammo and dry goods, pull up a lawn chair and break out some marshmellows, cause the fires are going to be spectacular.

proudamerican831
04-14-2009, 12:30 PM
deleted

bshnt2015
04-15-2009, 9:40 PM
"if you want peace, prepare for war"
"Epitoma Rei Militaris" by Vegetius

I pray it doesn't come to this, but the outcry for blood from the thugs are getting louder. I was working during the RK stuff in the bay area, what a time for a young cop on the street. Be safe.

Ron-Solo
04-16-2009, 4:43 PM
During the King riots there was a little bit of a political feud going on between the Sheriff and the Chief of LAPD, who was out of town at the time. His people couldn't make a decision without him. The Sheriff was ready to move into Florence & Normandy but LAPD kept telling us they were getting ready to deploy "any second now" and by the time they did, it was out of control.

LAPD has a new Chief and he his definitely more decisive. All it takes is for one Watch Commander to hesitate or be indecisive about committing personnel, and any scene can get out of hand fast. With the speed of information today, the news media can spread images of lawlessness much faster, which gives courage to others to act out.

We still refer to the King riots as the "L.A. Triathalon - Shoot, Loot & Scoot" It was more about 'free TV's' and stealing things rather than a protest of conditions.

Many a small business was saved because the owners had their own firepower. Gotta love the images of the Korean shop owner bustin' rounds at people trying to take over his store!

My squad rolled to one report of a "Man with a Gun" in front of a liquor store on the Compton/Paramount border the 2nd night. As we rolled up, there was the Asian store owner and 3 friends standing guard in front of his store. No guns were visible, but I did notice one man practicing with a putter, using 12 gauge and .45 shells for balls. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Hey guys, you see any criminals around here with guns?

Shop Owner: On no, sergeant, no see anyone with guns here.

Me: OK, give us a call if you do.

Shop Owner: OK sergeant. You be careful. Lots of bad people out there. You need anything cold to drink we'll be here all night! Come back and visit.

As we drove off with the first cold drink in two days, we waved at each other knowing they were the good guys and on our team.

That store survived without a scratch. Not all good guys get badges, and unfortunately, not all badges are good guys, but we try to get rid of those.

For all you cops out there, picture driving down a city street, with looted stores in every direction, and obviously armed private individuals on roof tops protecting their stores, and feeling the safest you have been in days. Definitely a surreal experience.

BE SAFE !

7222 Hawker
04-16-2009, 10:11 PM
CHP has a lot of resources they can put in place very quickly. During the war protests in SF, they put almost 2000 guys in the city almost overnight. I am sure they have a good ops plan working.

SiegeX
04-19-2009, 6:07 PM
Has there been a date for the verdict yet?

Back in the RK riots, I was living in Northridge, about 20mi from DT LA and we didn't see any action. Now, however, I'm living in Santa Clara/Silicon Valley area. Although Oakland is still ~20mi away, San Jose is very close by. What is the likelihood of San Jose following suit if Oakland is burning and the majority of the LEO's are tied up on the East Bay?

tazmanian devil dog
04-21-2009, 5:27 PM
Sometimes I wonder if Oakland burning is really that bad of an idea....

Think of the redevelopment opportunities.


Think of the marshmallows we could roast!!! :rofl2:

SgtDinosaur
04-23-2009, 4:20 PM
Man, I just hope I don't have to sit on my roof all night. I'm getting too old for that BS. Guess I will if I have too, though. Seeing as how everyone will be tied up in Oakland and we only have about 1/2 of a police force things could get mighty interesting here, although I hope not.

50 Freak
04-23-2009, 6:18 PM
You were one of them? You marched with them?

Yup, I was taking a photo class at the time. Figured rioting like that happened only every 20-30 years. So grabbed my camera and went along to witness history.

Have a problem with that?

smokingloon
04-23-2009, 7:39 PM
Yup, I was taking a photo class at the time. Figured rioting like that happened only every 20-30 years. So grabbed my camera and went along to witness history.

Have a problem with that?

Do you still have any of the photos? Care to post them?

gotgunz
04-23-2009, 8:30 PM
Sometimes I wonder if Oakland burning is really that bad of an idea....

Think of the redevelopment opportunities.


I was thinking the very same thing...

50 Freak
04-24-2009, 2:26 PM
Do you still have any of the photos? Care to post them?

Nah, the ones I took came out too dark (guess I wasn't in class the day they spoke about proper lighting). Then when I was loading the camera with new film. Was sitting in front of the US District Court watching the rioters try to overturn a school bus. Tear gas cannisters came flying down the street, so I loaded my camera with my eyes tearing up and half closed. Took pics the rest of the night to find out the film never caught on to the spool. No photos...just memories.

Finally left the riot when we were going down Broadway and the rioters looted a knife store there (same one OJ bought his famous knife by the way). Anyways, when I saw some dude standing on top of a RX-7 being driven down the street. He's wearing a viking cap complete with horns and and waving a Roman Gladius sword....figured that was the signal that I needed to leave....

Mason McDuffie
04-24-2009, 2:43 PM
This thread was actually pretty helpful. I havent thought about the repercussions of this trial in a broader scope. I live in a quiet suburb, but I could just see them coming over the hill like rampaging criminals. Its honestly a very scary thought. I should probably bring that up at the next home owners meeting.

Mason McDuffie
04-24-2009, 2:44 PM
The logistics running through my head right now are crazy. I have alot of older people in my neighborhood that are gonna need help as well.

norcal77
04-24-2009, 7:20 PM
My hope is the officer is not convicted of any crime, as I believe it was a training issue. We have come a long way since Rodney King, I just hope we have come far enough that we do not have to sacrifice any more officers to appease public opinion.

The guy made a mistake with somebodies life...he should pay the price and be convicted. Does that mean the person training him should be liable? Chalking it up as an innocent mistake is absolutely unacceptable.

Stormfeather
04-25-2009, 8:44 AM
Yes, but we are way past that now. . .a mistake was made, we all know that. Now we come to the judgement phase of it, and im more worried about the punishment phase of it, hence this thread.

Ron-Solo
04-25-2009, 10:19 AM
The guy made a mistake with somebodies life...he should pay the price and be convicted. Does that mean the person training him should be liable? Chalking it up as an innocent mistake is absolutely unacceptable.

You've obviously never been in a true "life or death" situation. Do you believe it's possible to shoot a knife out of the hand of a running suspect at 100 yards with a 2 inch revolver?

There are civil remedies when the training is flawed, which is the proper forum to address the issue.

Rioting when you don't get your way is the scumbag thing to do.

Turbinator
04-25-2009, 9:19 PM
Sometimes I wonder if Oakland burning is really that bad of an idea....

Well, we'd better go in and save Oaklander first...!

Turby

50 Freak
04-26-2009, 2:26 AM
You've obviously never been in a true "life or death" situation. Do you believe it's possible to shoot a knife out of the hand of a running suspect at 100 yards with a 2 inch revolver?

There are civil remedies when the training is flawed, which is the proper forum to address the issue.

Rioting when you don't get your way is the scumbag thing to do.

Have you? If I remember correctly the "perp" was on his stomach with his hands handcuffed behind his back when he was shot IN THE BACK. I don't think we "sacrificed any officers". More like me made the officer in question responsible for his actions.

Just ask yourself. If a civilian did the same thing, would we even discussing this? An LE is no better or worse than his "employers". ( yes the public is his employers)

cousinkix1953
04-26-2009, 6:18 AM
Aren't weak leaders the biggest problem in San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley? Those ultra-liberal politicians would disarm their police departments, if they could get away with it. I can already see investigations, hearings and even trials, for the LEOs who stop the riots...

Ishoot
04-26-2009, 9:56 AM
Sad turn of events. I feel bad for both the deceased and the officer whose life is ruined because of "lack of training". Either way the verdict goes, the scumbags will find a way to be unhappy and riot anyway. Sucks that any issue that involves people of different racial background becomes a racial issue. I often wonder how things would've turned out if the officer was black and the deceased was white......

cousinkix1953
04-26-2009, 6:41 PM
Nutcases rioted in San Francisco after the police shot a teenager - in Athens Greece last year. They are almost guaranteed to cause trouble over this BART police officer's trial...