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natasha69
04-08-2009, 1:40 PM
Please, don't crucify me for asking this.

What laws are there on the books, or not thought of yet (brainstorming) that actually reduce criminals having access to guns, of any sort. Or more broadly stated, reduce crime with guns?

So far a very general summary of the gun atrocities over the last X months included a mental college student, an immigrant who should not have access, and a paroled felon. The current laws are not working. We all agree on that.

What laws would work? Specifically laws that would not infringe on law abiding citizens rights to have guns. Are there any that could work?

For example -
1) Blanket CCW law for law abiding citizens. If more citizens were potentially armed, criminals would think twice before acting.
2) ???

Librarian
04-08-2009, 1:47 PM
Generally, none.

Deserves a really long response, so get a copy of James B. Jacobs "Can Gun Control Work (http://www.amazon.com/Control-Studies-Crime-Public-Policy/dp/0195176588/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239227154&sr=1-1)"; he takes apart the whole concept and shows why it just can't work.

Jacobs was the guy who was interviewed the other day; video of his interview was posted in off-topic, I think. -- ETA no, that was at THR. link to interview:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7260969

DDT
04-08-2009, 1:55 PM
the best way would be to cut off the hands of prohibited persons. This would largely prevent them from using a firearm in the commission of a crime. It would also serve as a visible warning to anyone with whom they are in contact that they are a violent criminal. A brand on the forehead would also serve as a warning but wouldn't really prevent them from using a gun.

nicki
04-08-2009, 2:28 PM
Let's see.

1. End drug prohbition, at least 1/3rd of gun crimes is caused as a byproduct of the drug trade.

2. 50 state CCW, victim disarmanent (VD) reduces on the job death and injury for career criminals.

3. Change government tax and spending so that we again reward people for being productive. Let people know that they get to keep the fruits of their labor.

4. Have our moral leaders actually lead, preach love, tolerance,, forgiveness It should be God bless America, not God damm America.

5. Work to eliminate the culture of victimhood and entitlement.

6. Get government out of our lives where it has no business being, we have enough stress in our lives. Many crimes of violence happen for stupid reasons.

7. Change the values of our criminal justice system.

a. Compensate victim first
b. Protect society
c. Rehab if possible offender while they are in jail so that when they get out, they can be productive.

8. Gangs - Legalize dueling and mutual combat and allow gangs to settle their scores. Cuts down on innocent bystanders and thins the gangs by natural selection. :43:

Hell, we could even have pay for view to encourage them to reduce their numbers.:eek:

Item 8 is a joke, lighten up people:thumbsup:

We could see significant reductions not only in gun crime, but other crime as well. The problem is it would require change in the way we do alot of things and there are powerful groups who will get in the way of change.

This is something that we should seriously look at though, as we grow in size, we may be able to do something about it.

Certainly it would help with us winning in the court of public opinion.

Nicki

sorensen440
04-08-2009, 2:29 PM
The ones that lock them away for good

The only way to remove guns from dangerous criminals is to remove dangerous criminals from society

RomanDad
04-08-2009, 2:30 PM
There is no utopian answer to criminal behavior. There will always be some people who chose to victimize others, and no amount of social tinkering will cure that human flaw.

Synergy
04-08-2009, 2:32 PM
A simple solution is toughen up the punishment on convicted criminals and stop making jail a holiday vacation.

If I was in charge, I would lock down the borders, deport all illegals and all jobs done by illegals are now done for pennies on the dollar by the national inmate population. A good ole chain gang with 10 hours a day of hard labor, would be a huge deterrent for re-entering the criminal lifestyle. Plus, they may actually learn a trade.

rtlltj
04-08-2009, 2:32 PM
Ted Nugent says it perfectly, "I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders".

dustoff31
04-08-2009, 2:44 PM
Let's see.

8. Gangs - Legalize dueling and mutual combat and allow gangs to settle their scores. Cuts down on innocent bystanders and thins the gangs by natural selection. :43:

Hell, we could even have pay for view to encourage them to reduce their numbers.:eek:

Item 8 is a joke, lighten up people:thumbsup:

Nicki

What? Why would anyone object to this? After all, killing each other off is part of the gang culture. Aren't we supposed to respect everyone's culture?

n2k
04-08-2009, 2:45 PM
But only one of the current massacres was conducted by a convicted criminal (Oakland). Someone with a mental defect can lurk below the radar and snap at any time. Legally, nothing will stop them when they decide to create havoc with a gun (or any other weapon at that)

The only way to control the situations is to allow people to defend themselves and not leave them helpless to the insanity of another.

Good law = shall issue CCW

Dark&Good
04-08-2009, 2:45 PM
The only way to remove guns from dangerous criminals is to remove dangerous criminals from society

That seems to touch the core of the problem.

One side to the above is to catch and physically remove the already-criminals.

The other side: reform the education (parental AND school) so as to reduce the number of would-be criminals.

rabagley
04-08-2009, 2:46 PM
Let's see.

1. End drug prohbition, at least 1/3rd of gun crimes is caused as a byproduct of the drug trade.

It's much more than that. If you exclude drug-related crimes from all data, the US and other developed nations have equivalent rates of gun crime and overall violent crime.

The War on (some) Drugs is one of the biggest problems in this country. Not the drugs. The war.

nicki
04-08-2009, 2:48 PM
Prisoneers should work while in prison. Privileges should be tied to work, if you don't want to work, you have no privileges.

Prisons should be controlled by the guards, not the inmates. We are not going to "rehab" anyone if the prisons are controlled by the prisoneers.

Illegal Aliens who commit crimes in our country should be treated seperated and dealth with on a federal level.

If they commit capital crimes, execute them.

Set up a special federal run prison for illegals, kinda like fort leavenworth or Gitmo, only I was thinking in the northwest pacific, like the Aleutian islands.

I would consider offering the alien the opportunity to leave the country and never come back, ever. Persona non grati for life with no legal protections if they are ever found in this country by anyone.

Nicki

RomanDad
04-08-2009, 2:50 PM
That seems to touch the core of the problem.

One side to the above is to catch and physically remove the already-criminals.

The other side: reform the education (parental AND school) so as to reduce the number of would-be criminals.



Dont even get me started.... Education in the last 20 years as been preoccupied with Self Esteem. Anybody who has ever visited an inner city school or listened to gangster rap for a few minutes should realize there is no shortage of undeserved self esteem in the high risk inner city youths the bleeding hearts are always ringing their hands over. In fact, what we've produced with all this "self esteem" and "sensitivity" is a generation of young narcissists, who's self esteem levels are so out of whack that it justifies the subjugation of everybody else's rights for their own gratification.

Decoligny
04-08-2009, 2:55 PM
the best way would be to cut off the hands of prohibited persons. This would largely prevent them from using a firearm in the commission of a crime. It would also serve as a visible warning to anyone with whom they are in contact that they are a violent criminal. A brand on the forehead would also serve as a warning but wouldn't really prevent them from using a gun.

I think that blinding them by actually removing their eyes might work as both the prevention and the visible warning. That way they could even still get a job assembling simple mechanical parts by feel in a factory somewhere.

DDT
04-08-2009, 2:58 PM
I think that blinding them by actually removing their eyes might work as both the prevention and the visible warning. That way they could even still get a job assembling simple mechanical parts by feel in a factory somewhere.

And they could get prosthetic eye balls in their gang colors. Can Rottweilers be trained as seeing eye dogs?

Ford8N
04-08-2009, 3:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Sorry.

Jpach
04-08-2009, 3:03 PM
I can think of one. Law that MAKES every residence have a gun. I forget what town in what state has it but I think it did reduce crime. Im sure someone will know what Im talking about and provide a link

sorensen440
04-08-2009, 3:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Sorry.
"In Wilkerson v. Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkerson_v._Utah), 99 U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Reports) 130 (http://supreme.justia.com/us/99/130/case.html) (1878), the Court stated that death by firing squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_squad) was not cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments."

"In Rummel v. Estelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rummel_v._Estelle), 445 U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Reports) 263 (http://supreme.justia.com/us/445/263/case.html) (1980), the Court upheld a life sentence with the possibility of parole for fraud crimes totaling $230."

Dark&Good
04-08-2009, 3:10 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia

Rhys898
04-08-2009, 3:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Sorry.

depends on what your idea of cruel and unusual or excessive is. Honestly, I'm not really down with mutilation or permanent disfigurement but anything short of that for violent criminals I completely support.

I also like the labor for privileges idea. If you want to sit on your butt you'll be kept in a Sheriff Joe style prison. But if you want TV and better meals you can help build out our new southern defenses. Yes, the work is hard but you get better food, stay healthy from working out (without weights), and learn the construction trade, framing, concrete pouring, welding, etc...

Jer

DDT
04-08-2009, 3:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Sorry.

LOL

Whiskey84
04-08-2009, 3:44 PM
Dont even get me started.... Education in the last 20 years as been preoccupied with Self Esteem. Anybody who has ever visited an inner city school or listened to gangster rap for a few minutes should realize there is no shortage of undeserved self esteem in the high risk inner city youths the bleeding hearts are always ringing their hands over. In fact, what we've produced with all this "self esteem" and "sensitivity" is a generation of young narcissists, who's self esteem levels are so out of whack that it justifies the subjugation of everybody else's rights for their own gratification.

+1000
Well said!
:hurray:

Monte
04-08-2009, 3:55 PM
So far a very general summary of the gun atrocities over the last X months included a mental college student, an immigrant who should not have access, and a paroled felon. The current laws are not working. We all agree on that.


Was that NY nutbag a prohibited person? He was, apparently, a US citizen. Obviously, he shouldn't have had access, but I'm not aware of any felony convictions or other restrictions.

Also, +1 for shall-issue CCW.

Adonlude
04-08-2009, 3:58 PM
I love some of these hard line comments I am seeing here. Unfortunately, none will ever come close to being implemented in any way shape or form without a massive shift in social values.

We spend and waste so much to uphold the rights of the worst people in our society. People are easy to make, there's no reason to keep the terrible ones around.

trashman
04-08-2009, 4:13 PM
A simple solution is toughen up the punishment on convicted criminals and stop making jail a holiday vacation.

If I was in charge, I would lock down the borders, deport all illegals and all jobs done by illegals are now done for pennies on the dollar by the national inmate population.

This doesn't compute at all. The costs of providing oversight/security would have to be factored into the labor cost -- and it would drive it well past the wages earned in those jobs now..

When I worked as a news intern back in the 90's I got to interview the-VA-gov George Allen during his "Truth In Sentencing" roadshow one summer. It's a recurring fantasy that pops up every few years -- "end parole; lock 'em up and throw away the key".

The problem is that this solution is reeaaaaly expensive -- which is what fundamentally sunk Allen's approach. It's totally at odds with other conservative values like "low taxes".

--Neill

grahlaika
04-08-2009, 4:16 PM
A few options I can think of (unrealistic in today's environment, but options nonetheless):

1. Eliminate or reduce the causes of crime in our society. Clearly a HUGE and complex issue to say the least, but for every aberrant behavior there's a root cause. Whether it's poor education, abusive environment, general life stresses, combat stress legacy, whatever, you can find a reason or reasons for someone acting 'out of the norm'. Start to address those root causes and you have a start to reducing crime.

2. Eliminate or reduce gun accidents. Part of being a responsible gun owner is making sure our guns aren't used for purposes other than those intended. Gun owners should be held responsible for un-intentional injuries or death caused by one of our weapons, because it means we did not fulfill our responsibility. Part of that is better training, part of it are harsher punishments for gun owners who allow their guns to injure someone else.

The reality is that having the right to bear arms doesn't imply the right to put innocent lives at risk, whether intentionally or through our negligence. If you leave your weapon unsecured, and your kid grabs it and accidentally blows little Jimmy's brains out, you should be held liable for that.

Quake0
04-08-2009, 4:43 PM
shall issue CCW

M. Sage
04-08-2009, 4:47 PM
There is no utopian answer to criminal behavior. There will always be some people who chose to victimize others, and no amount of social tinkering will cure that human flaw.

In other words: Law can't reduce crime.

DDT
04-08-2009, 4:50 PM
1. Eliminate or reduce the causes of crime in our society. Clearly a HUGE and complex issue to say the least, but for every aberrant behavior there's a root cause. Whether it's ... general life stresses... Start to address those root causes and you have a start to reducing crime.


Sweet, I have general life stress, where do I sign up for the free massages and ATM card that's auto-replenished by Uncle Sam? After all money is the root of most stress, especially in these economic times.

I guess it's time to just sit at the trough and let the government solve all our problems for us. Free food, free health care, free education, free housing. It will be beautiful, just like the old days in the Soviet Union. I guess we can just milk the rich until they leave or simply quit working too.

RomanDad
04-08-2009, 5:11 PM
In other words: Law can't reduce crime.

Thats what 4000 years of trying has taught us.... The best we can do is punish the criminals in hopes that it will act as a direct deterrent to them, and an indirect deterrent to others.

AngelDecoys
04-08-2009, 5:11 PM
Set up a special federal run prison for illegals, kinda like fort leavenworth or Gitmo, only I was thinking in the northwest pacific, like the Aleutian islands.

Nicki

Would be cheaper to export our prisoners to foreign lands. Let countries that have no civil liberties and have outstanding loans with the US warehouse our dangerous offenders.

I would have no problem with some gang banger having to serve out their sentence in a Mexican prison. With the added benefit of not being able to communicate with their gang friends in the US.

The problem is that this solution is reeaaaaly expensive -- which is what fundamentally sunk Allen's approach. It's totally at odds with other conservative values like "low taxes".

--Neill

Bullets are cheap. Or as an alternative, "Thunderdome!"

Synergy
04-08-2009, 5:31 PM
This doesn't compute at all. The costs of providing oversight/security would have to be factored into the labor cost -- and it would drive it well past the wages earned in those jobs now..

When I worked as a news intern back in the 90's I got to interview the-VA-gov George Allen during his "Truth In Sentencing" roadshow one summer. It's a recurring fantasy that pops up every few years -- "end parole; lock 'em up and throw away the key".

The problem is that this solution is reeaaaaly expensive -- which is what fundamentally sunk Allen's approach. It's totally at odds with other conservative values like "low taxes".

--Neill

So maybe I am mistaken. We have a able bodied population that has the capability of doing work. They are already being funded on the "taxpayers" dime. Yet they are sitting inside 4 walls doing nothing productive or paying back their debt to society. Are you aware that CA has a small productive prison workforce called PIA? Why cant this be expanded? As for added security. Let the guards do their job. If the inmate picking lettuce wants to run, he cant out run a .223. Once a few rouge inmates are dropped in their tracks, they word inside the inmate population will be dont run! I have worked along CDC inmates on many wildfires. They are willing to bust their arse to get outside of the barbwire. Typically they are not going to f' up and get put back inside the walls when they could have a small taste of freedom.


California Prison Industry Authority (CALPIA) was created by Chapter 1549, Statutes of 1982 as a semiautonomous state agency to operate California's prison industries in a manner similar to private industry. CALPIA is established to:

-Develop and operate manufacturing, agricultural, and service enterprises that provide work opportunities for inmates under the jurisdiction of the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

-Create and maintain working conditions within enterprises, as much like those which prevail in private industry as possible, to assure inmates assigned therein the opportunity to work productively, to earn funds, and to acquire or improve effective work habits or occupational skills

-Operate work programs for inmates that are self-supporting through the generation of sufficient funds from the sale of products and services to pay all its expenses, thereby avoiding the cost of alternative inmate programming by California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Alphahookups
04-08-2009, 5:51 PM
The laws that most directly impact gun crimes are ones that are associated with the socioeconomic issues that cause the crimes in the first place. Address those issues and you will address your crime(at least to a certain extent)

dustoff31
04-08-2009, 5:58 PM
So maybe I am mistaken. We have a able bodied population that has the capability of doing work. They are already being funded on the "taxpayers" dime. Yet they are sitting inside 4 walls doing nothing productive or paying back their debt to society. Are you aware that CA has a small productive prison workforce called PIA? Why cant this be expanded? As for added security. Let the guards do their job. If the inmate picking lettuce wants to run, he cant out run a .223. Once a few rouge inmates are dropped in their tracks, they word inside the inmate population will be dont run! I have worked along CDC inmates on many wildfires. They are willing to bust their arse to get outside of the barbwire. Typically they are not going to f' up and get put back inside the walls when they could have a small taste of freedom.

No you aren't mistaken at all. A year or so ago, farmers in Colorado were finding it hard to get labor because the illegals were leaving for various reasons.

The CO prison system came up with a program just as you describe. The farmers paid the prisoners (very low) wages, paid for the guards, and IIRC, even had to provide lunches. Last I heard it was working out just fine for all concerned.

Snapping Twig
04-08-2009, 6:40 PM
Criminals are not necessarily stupid, they are however lazy. Some are just insane, so for those, this solution won't work AS WELL.

Make it so dangerous for violent criminal behavior that criminals suppress their need to pillage.

I don't care WHY someone behaves, all I care is that they do so.

To this end, I suggest CCW for ALL law abiding citizens, this would exclude illegals and other non citizens - on this point I am firm.

Rescind all feel-good "wait for the whites of their eyes" rules of engagement and allow for violent reaction in protection of property - Like Texas. Your property is the fruit of your labor, no one can take that from you without repercussion.

All criminals harmed in the act of felony should be specifically excluded from civil redress, same for their estates and relatives. Do the crime, get whacked, and no one can sue the good guy for cleaning the gene pool.

Perhaps a good first step would be to have all members of government read and then sign an oath of allegiance to the Constitution and the BOR with failure to do so or adhere to said requirements punishable by hanging.

Satex
04-08-2009, 7:01 PM
Laws that would reduce gun crime?

No such thing as "gun crime". Please show me a single gun throughout history that has committed a crime and I will agree with you that "gun crime" exists. We do however need laws that deal with "crime".

fourXfour
04-08-2009, 7:14 PM
I have always thought we should get rid of probation and parole. We need to end this whole plea bargaining element out of our court system. You do the crime, you do the time.

I like the work idea. I know they make license plates, maybe they can make cars!!!!

evan69
04-08-2009, 7:24 PM
Our point shouldn't be to reduce crimes with guns. Such a premise shows preference of which weapons we want out criminals killing people with, and that is sensational.

trashman
04-08-2009, 7:29 PM
So maybe I am mistaken.

I'll buy that for a dollar ;)


We have a able bodied population that has the capability of doing work. They are already being funded on the "taxpayers" dime. Yet they are sitting inside 4 walls doing nothing productive or paying back their debt to society. Are you aware that CA has a small productive prison workforce called PIA?
I wasn't, and thanks for the pointer. I still maintain this isn't going to cost the taxpayer *less*; once you scale up an operation like this it isn't going to be the same (or less..) as containing inmates within four walls.

If the inmate picking lettuce wants to run, he cant out run a .223.
OK, so add how many million dollars per year for legal fees fighting off the families of the inmates?

I'm not arguing with the sentiment of your idea -- I'm arguing with the math and the premise that you're going to save the taxpayer money.

--Neill

Synergy
04-08-2009, 7:53 PM
I'll buy that for a dollar ;) Robocop was a good B movie. :p

I wasn't, and thanks for the pointer. I still maintain this isn't going to cost the taxpayer *less*; once you scale up an operation like this it isn't going to be the same (or less..) as containing inmates within four walls.

Wow, you must have failed 9th grade econ. You see the box, lets look outside it....ok? We eliminate a illegal population that is a burden on our society. They dont pay taxes, they exploit our healthcare, schools, general benefits, etc... Never putting back into the system. They cost taxpayers...billions, but hey they work for pennies under the table and keep our lettuce cheap. We have a system that is fully funded by exorbitant tax dollars and is producing close to nil. Zero production from our investment. We can use that population, within our legal system to produce an end product, albeit: fruits and vegetables, inmate clothes or repainting gov buildings. If the inmate population took over the jobs of the illegals, there were be some bureaucratic funds lost. Thats just government waste. You should consider the tax dollars no longer wasted on a population of illegals. I would call it a wash, with positive benefits.



OK, so add how many million dollars per year for legal fees fighting off the families of the inmates?

I'm not arguing with the sentiment of your idea -- I'm arguing with the math and the premise that you're going to save the taxpayer money.

--Neill

We would only have a few initial lawsuits based on the "sacrificial lambs" once the inmate population knew who was boss. The deaths would be close to zero. Every agency in CA has lawsuits pending. Its the cost of doing business in CA.

tactic101
04-08-2009, 7:55 PM
--
1. Eliminate or reduce the causes of crime in our society. Clearly a HUGE and complex issue to say the least, but for every aberrant behavior there's a root cause. Whether it's poor education, abusive environment, general life stresses, combat stress legacy, whatever, you can find a reason or reasons for someone acting 'out of the norm'. Start to address those root causes and you have a start to reducing crime.

Yeah, no one is really evil. People who do bad stuff are just responding to their mistreatment by society. If only the government could control every aspect of every life, we could finally achieve a crime-free utopia.

Dr Rockso
04-08-2009, 8:04 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Sorry.
You know, the people who wrote that were perfectly fine with dumping hot tar on folks before sticking feathers on them and riding them out of town on a rail....

Just saying :chris:

grahlaika
04-08-2009, 9:19 PM
Yeah, no one is really evil. People who do bad stuff are just responding to their mistreatment by society. If only the government could control every aspect of every life, we could finally achieve a crime-free utopia.

Man, you guys are really good at reading stuff into other people's posts that isn't there. Guess your world lives on assumption and not on dialogue, eh?

I never implied that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions - we all make choices every day, and we have to live with those choices. There is something to be said about contributing factors, and that's the point I was trying to raise. Are you of the opinion that all people get what they deserve, and there should be no room for helping anyone, or for compassion? That all their victims deserve what they get as well, and that they shoulda armed themselves?

Well it's certainly one approach. Arm yourself, screw everyone else? Why even bother with having a society with laws in that case? Let pure Darwinian nature take over, abolish all laws, and let the strongest win. We either accept the fact that we all have to somehow live together, or we don't. If we choose, the latter, then the Second Amendment or the entire Constitution for that matter don't mean a damn thing...

Mulay El Raisuli
04-09-2009, 5:42 AM
We spend and waste so much to uphold the rights of the worst people in our society. People are easy to make, there's no reason to keep the terrible ones around.


And making them is fun too!

Seriously though, there's no such thing as a "gun crime." There's only crime. How to prevent harm to oneself? The answer now is the same as its always been; have the means to stop the offender from inflicting harm. That used to mean a rock. Then it meant a sword. Now it means a gun. Either universal CCW or LOC is then the proper response.

As for that which inspires crime? Start by legalizing pot. When (not if) that reduces crime, give some thought to legalizing coke & the rest of the "DANGEROUS DRUGS!!!" as well. We'll not only reduce street crime, we'll reduce the ability of the cartels to make pests of themselves as well. Which will improve the lot of those who live in Columbia & Mexico.

The Raisuli

trashman
04-09-2009, 6:37 AM
Wow, you must have failed 9th grade econ. You see the box, lets look outside it....ok? We eliminate a illegal population that is a burden on our society.


You're conflating 1) the cost of eliminating illegal immigration with 2) the cost of putting the prison population to work. Not the same thing...

They dont pay taxes, they exploit our healthcare, schools, general benefits, etc... Never putting back into the system. They cost taxpayers...billions, but hey they work for pennies under the table and keep our lettuce cheap.


And so to compare apples-to-apples, we'll need to include the increased cost of buying all our produce from Mexico and China IN ADDITION TO the cost of arresting, incarcerating and transporting all the illegal immigrants under your "no tolerance" scheme.

Sounds like maybe I wasn't the one who failed basic Macroeconomics.

You should consider the tax dollars no longer wasted on a population of illegals. I would call it a wash,

I'm sure you would. I would call it wishful thinking not based on dispassionate math. You've got an axe to grind over the immigration issue and that's coloring this comparison.

We would only have a few initial lawsuits based on the "sacrificial lambs" once the inmate population knew who was boss. The deaths would be close to zero. Every agency in CA has lawsuits pending. Its the cost of doing business in CA.Think about every high-profile wrongful death suit filed against the police in this state. We're not talking about "the cost of doing business" we're talking about the friggin Government running prisons.

The idea of gunning down inmates when they try to escape a chain gang belongs back in the Deep South of the 1950s (also known as the dustbin of history...)

I jumped in thinking this topic was about the economics of putting the prison population to work. I was wrong -- it's clearly about your anger with immigration politics. Moving right along....

--Neill

trashman
04-09-2009, 6:37 AM
Robocop was a good B movie. :p



It was an AWESOME b movie!

--Neill

jacques
04-09-2009, 8:17 AM
In other words: Law can't reduce crime.

There is something to be said about that. Everytime they make a new law, there are more criminals. Now, as far as laws to keep guns out of criminals hands, I belive theft is against the law, but since they are criminals, they are not going to really care about the laws and breaking them.

There have been criminals since the beginning of mankind. It is a societal issue, like others have expresed here. Education, upbringing, etc. And be sure, there are extremeists that would love to control everything that goes on inside your household, because they know best:rolleyes:

Take a look at the communists. Extremely harsh punishments for crime. They are in your face about every aspect of your "personal" life. Guns are banned from the general public, their kids turn parents in as traitors if you speak wrong of the gov. Yet, they still have high crime.

sugi942
04-09-2009, 8:34 AM
I'm all for a Running Man style of prison/entertainment. :p

As for the answer to the OPs question, I think there is no way to legislate a reduction in crimes committed with guns. If you got rid of guns, these people would resort to other methods. Permanently getting rid of the criminals is a partial answer, but too hard to implement.

rjf
04-09-2009, 8:57 AM
Three strikes and your dead would work. Most crime is committed by a few career criminals.

Free box of ammo for every dead perp.

PatriotnMore
04-09-2009, 9:27 AM
There is something to be said about that. Everytime they make a new law, there are more criminals.

Funny how that works. More criminals, who were not criminals before the law was passed. Depending on the crime, sometimes its logical, other times its redundant, and the worse offenders, are laws with loss of rights.

In the case of gun laws it is the latter two. Everyone knows there are more than enough laws on the books concerning guns, too many. So, the only other reason for more laws, is to deny your right, if you look at it logically.

mblat
04-09-2009, 10:23 AM
Generally none.
Law repeal, however can be most helpful. I think drug legalization would go LONG way reducing overall crime rates, including gun crimes.

BTF/PTM
04-09-2009, 10:37 AM
I did not read all posts in this thread, so forgive any repetition.

The very question at stake is completely contradictory. There is no such thing as a law that can prevent a criminal's gun possession. They are defined as criminal because they broke a law. Criminals do and will continue to get guns by unlawful means. Under-the-table purchases, illegal purchase thru some outside importer, theft, etc. Laws must be written to promote the law abiding citizen's right to keeping a gun in defense of said criminal, not to prevent criminal possession. I swing the bat at the horse corpse yet again...

stillnotbob
04-09-2009, 11:56 AM
A few options I can think of (unrealistic in today's environment, but options nonetheless):

1. Eliminate or reduce the causes of crime in our society. Clearly a HUGE and complex issue to say the least, but for every aberrant behavior there's a root cause. Whether it's poor education, abusive environment, general life stresses, combat stress legacy, whatever, you can find a reason or reasons for someone acting 'out of the norm'. Start to address those root causes and you have a start to reducing crime.

2. Eliminate or reduce gun accidents. Part of being a responsible gun owner is making sure our guns aren't used for purposes other than those intended. Gun owners should be held responsible for un-intentional injuries or death caused by one of our weapons, because it means we did not fulfill our responsibility. Part of that is better training, part of it are harsher punishments for gun owners who allow their guns to injure someone else.

The reality is that having the right to bear arms doesn't imply the right to put innocent lives at risk, whether intentionally or through our negligence. If you leave your weapon unsecured, and your kid grabs it and accidentally blows little Jimmy's brains out, you should be held liable for that.


+10,000:thumbsup:

Lancear15
04-09-2009, 12:03 PM
I suggest everyone read the book "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott

Dark&Good
04-09-2009, 12:12 PM
Funny how that works. More criminals, who were not criminals before the law was passed.

Like that red book of the shrinks... everything is a "mental disorder" :rolleyes:
Another similarity is that it only applies to others, not the shrinks themselves -
aren't these gun laws like that, too? :D

JayRuff
04-09-2009, 1:24 PM
the best way would be to cut off the hands of prohibited persons. This would largely prevent them from using a firearm in the commission of a crime. It would also serve as a visible warning to anyone with whom they are in contact that they are a violent criminal. A brand on the forehead would also serve as a warning but wouldn't really prevent them from using a gun.

Yeah that's what they used to do to people that would steal in the middle east