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View Full Version : "'Scuse me while I run to my car to get my LCC."


Nanook
04-05-2009, 4:23 PM
Been catching up on news here, and LCC has caught my eye, as well as AB-357.

In regards to LCC (Locked Container Carry), let me start off by saying I plan to do it. I have a Center of Mass car safe already, and am going to use a zippered, padded range pouch with a combo lock to stick in my murse, for when the situation allows.

Anyway, it got me thinking about situations in which I would actually unlock said LC. An armed carjacking situation would probably get me hurt or worse. Zombies, in a heartbeat. But, given these days' events, say I'm in a mall and some nutjob decides to pick that mall in which to go postal. I am able to get away and run to my car. Now, I see a moral impetus to go back and try to stop said nutjob, but what legal consequences would I possibly face? If I ran back with the gun under my shirt, I'd be concealing, in my hand, brandishing or worse. Should I grab my locked pouch and only unlock it when I am in view of people whose lives are in danger?

Maybe I'm over-thinking the situation, but I do not want to undertake LCC lightly. I mean, of course I'd rather have my gun "handy" but given the restrictions, what would be the best way to implement it, or is it more trouble than it's worth?

TheBundo
04-05-2009, 4:36 PM
Locked with a combo lock on the seat next to you, one of the numbers moved off one or 2 digits. Mag full of rounds next to the gun in the locked case. Put the one number back, open, load, etc.

Nanook
04-05-2009, 4:45 PM
Thanks for the quick reply, but I think I've got everything covered except the "etc." ;)

pullnshoot25
04-05-2009, 4:59 PM
California law makes "reasonable" exemptions for concealing a weapon in certain circumstances. Matchinger's book does a good job of explaining that.

Nanook
04-05-2009, 6:14 PM
Looking at the California 2008 printing of Machtinger's How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail I see a couple pertinent sections:

PP. 45-46 Covers "reasonable belief of immediate, grave danger" and the exception granting having a loaded gun, but not concealed. 12031(j)(1)

P. 56 Covers "persons assisting police by request" which would allow one to have both a loaded and concealed gun while in the act of said assistance. 12027(a), 12031(b)(1)

So if I am understanding correctly, taking my mall nutjob example, the best way to go about it would be to first call the police and tell them about the situation (of course) and tell them I have a gun in my car and offer my assistance? I would be surprised if they said "go ahead," but if they did, it would be OK to load and conceal the gun.

If I was unable to call police, or they said, "no thanks" to my offer of help, I would still be able to load the gun, but not conceal it, or if they said to directly not get involved (more likely) would I be breaking any laws by going back to help?

I guess I am still unclear on going back to the mall where people are being shot at. Is distance a factor? i.e. Do you have to be in the immediate vicinity to intervene in attempted murder, or can you run 100 yards back to the scene?

AJAX22
04-05-2009, 6:44 PM
I heard a funny story about a guy who kept his pistol in a brown paper bag that had a hole punched in it with a little padlock on the top....

Is there any case law or formal definition as to what constitutes 'locked container?'

fleegman
04-05-2009, 6:53 PM
I sympathize with the desire to be ultra-legal as well as reasonably immune from civil suit, but my personal opinion is this; if a nut is picking off people at the mall, and I have the potential ability to end it, I will, consequences be damned. I can live with that.

What I couldn't live with is seeing the pictures that evening on the news of the victims (some probably children), and the interviews with the shattered families, while knowing I could have done something, but chose not to.

If my daughter was at that hypothetical mall, I would hope someone would be able and willing to save her life. Thus, I am willing to save others.

djbooya
04-05-2009, 6:59 PM
Been catching up on news here, and LCC has caught my eye, as well as AB-357.

In regards to LCC (Locked Container Carry), let me start off by saying I plan to do it. I have a Center of Mass car safe already, and am going to use a zippered, padded range pouch with a combo lock to stick in my murse, for when the situation allows.

Anyway, it got me thinking about situations in which I would actually unlock said LC. An armed carjacking situation would probably get me hurt or worse. Zombies, in a heartbeat. But, given these days' events, say I'm in a mall and some nutjob decides to pick that mall in which to go postal. I am able to get away and run to my car. Now, I see a moral impetus to go back and try to stop said nutjob, but what legal consequences would I possibly face? If I ran back with the gun under my shirt, I'd be concealing, in my hand, brandishing or worse. Should I grab my locked pouch and only unlock it when I am in view of people whose lives are in danger?

Maybe I'm over-thinking the situation, but I do not want to undertake LCC lightly. I mean, of course I'd rather have my gun "handy" but given the restrictions, what would be the best way to implement it, or is it more trouble than it's worth?

In my opinion, going back in and playing "hero" would not lead to good things. Once you are immediately out of harms way to grab any firearm and go back in would possibly lead to many bad legal consequences. For example:

a) If you get some good guy hurt, they may blame you for being a crazy gun nut with a hero complex for going back in. If you can't get police on phone they may ask why you didn't leave to get "real" help.

b) If you get the bad guy hurt / killed I can only imagine some kind of wrongful death suit coming your way for the same reasons.

Now a) and b) may not apply at all if you were say ex-LEO, or something like that where you can at least prove some amount of qualifications in your response. Outside of that I find it hard to believe that anything good from a legal standpoint can result in going back in to help.

Now from a moral stand point I'd agree with what you would do. However, I don't think the law is on your side in this day and age of lawsuits / wrongful death suits.

Just my $.02

Santa Cruz Armory
04-05-2009, 7:00 PM
I understand your question but in the scenario you describe, I would most certainly call 911 and tell them I am armed and my description/ location. Now the moral/ ethical question comes in... are you willing to lay down your life? or just hang back and spectate?

I think that personally if I were returning from shooting and came upon this or kept a firearm in my car for SD and there was a subject actively shooting, I would retrieve the firearm and most likely return into the mall... Call me stupid, crazy what ever. If someone was shooting at my daughter/ wife/ mother/ sister/ etc. I'd want one of you guys to step in.

Flame ON!

djbooya
04-05-2009, 7:02 PM
I sympathize with the desire to be ultra-legal as well as reasonably immune from civil suit, but my personal opinion is this; if nut is picking off people at the mall, and I have the potential ability to end it, I will, consequences be damned. I can live with that.

What I couldn't live with is seeing the pictures that evening on the news of the victims (some probably children), and the interviews with the shattered families, while knowing I could have done something, but chose not to.

If my daughter was at that hypothetical mall, I would hope someone would be able and willing to save her life. Thus, I am willing to save others.

As I mentioned in my other post, while it is noble to go back in and help, I don't really think that any of the people you save are going to back you in a wrongful death suit if you kill the bad guy. Maybe they'd want to and say they owed you their life, but I can't imagine people throwing cash your way to help pay for your lawyer if you were getting sued. Now maybe I just have a generally dimmer view on society, but you have to think long and hard about what you will be putting your family through should you go back in to help those others.

Same is taught in CCW classes (at least for Utah)... you need to think long and hard about when to pull that weapon out to help once you are immediately not threatened anymore...

Nanook
04-05-2009, 7:12 PM
I heard a funny story about a guy who kept his pistol in a brown paper bag that had a hole punched in it with a little padlock on the top....

Is there any case law or formal definition as to what constitutes 'locked container?' :/ Isn't that what the 17 page "Legality of Locked Container Carry" thread is for? J/K! I think there should be a "brown paper bag" thread on its own. ;)

I sympathize with the desire to be ultra-legal as well as reasonably immune from civil suit, but my personal opinion is this; if a nut is picking off people at the mall, and I have the potential ability to end it, I will, consequences be damned. I can live with that...
I admire your selflessness, and while I would hope to act the same way in the hypothetical situation, I wonder if, while I was sitting, broke, my prison cell, if the families visiting and bringing homemade cupcakes once a month would be enough consolation. OTOH, if it were my loved ones in danger, I don't think I would even think about consequences, legal or physical. Does that make me a bad person, that I pause to think about consequences to save "strangers?" Actually, it angers me that the laws and litigious atmosphere even make me have to...

Santa Cruz Armory
04-05-2009, 7:14 PM
But at the same time... all I can think about is if my daughter, wife, me, etc. were shopping I'd want someone to defend them/ me.

that I pause to think about consequences to save "strangers?" Actually, it angers me that the laws and litigious atmosphere even make me have to...

Amen!

Musclemom
04-05-2009, 7:33 PM
Emotionally and morally, I'd want to get the gun, go back in the mall, and do my damnedest to prevent further bloodshed. I would have a very hard time if people were injured and killed, and I thought there was something I could have done to prevent it.

However, rationally I'd be fighting a different battle. I have a family to think about. I'm not about to risk putting myself in the position of spending time in jail. Let's face it, in this state you're screwed if the DA happens to be anti. I'm also not willing to risk bankrupting my daughter's future from the nearly certain wrongful death lawsuit that would result if the BG died, or the anti-gun family of someone killed is certain that you exacerbated the situation. WD lawsuits fly for just about anyting these days. Then there's the consideration that I myself could be killed. I'd like to think I'm tactically smarter than that, but it happens to the best of em.

Yes, I'd like to think that someone would come to the aid of myself or my family in this type of a situation, but I completely understand anyone who doesn't. When the law are more gun friendly, I'll change my stance on that. Now, if I were CCW and was already inside, that's different. I'm going to take my shot.

U2BassAce
04-05-2009, 8:19 PM
If I have a legal CCW on me when SHTF in a mall and I am in the position to end it instantly, I will think about it. (I hate scenarios, you can call me a coward and I can come up with 10 reasons why you would be a fool)

Running out to my car in the parking lot and grabbing my "handgun" only to run back into the mall. Nope nada never. (I will come up with 100 reasons why you are a fool to do that.)

djbooya
04-05-2009, 9:05 PM
Here's some food for thought:

1) Do you know the difference between cover and concealment?
2) Can you shoot equally well with your weak hand?
3) Do you know how to reload your pistol with your weak hand?
4) Do you know how to reload your pistol with only 1 hand?

4 fairly simple questions. Now... most of you may say yes to all 4... now think about the "gun nut" who says No to all 4.. He shoots, misses the bad guy and kills YOUR wife / daughter / son / mom / dad / whole family..

Are you going to say "I don't blame you, but thanks for trying I'm not going to sue even though I would agree you are the FARTHEST from qualified..." Keep in mind, at least today, a CA CCW holder would be qualified because of what is currently required to get one...or at least more qualified. Anyone who would have left to get a firearm and to return to the situation...what if the guy that comes back is the same guy we've all seen at the indoor range putting holes in the walls or the roof... do you want THAT GUY to be the one to come to the aid of your friends and family...I don't... with my luck he'd shoot me and not even realize it....

so you can see how this becomes a slippery slope ... when we think of this scenario many of us think of how WE would like to handle it...which may be pretty good, maybe not..., but do we think about the average or below average gun guy that may be perfectly ok owning a firearm, but the worst shot ever, with perhaps no tactical situational awareness trying to do the same thing?

Another thing to consider:

1) "Hero" good guy comes back in with his 2 legal CA hi-cap mags. The bad guy with a revolver hits good guy who drops his firearm and/or can't use his weak hand to operate. The bad guy comes over, knocks him out, picks up HIS gun and uses the additional ammo and gun to massacre more people.

How would we all feel about that? I would be hella po'd.

fleegman
04-05-2009, 9:08 PM
As I mentioned in my other post, while it is noble to go back in and help, I don't really think that any of the people you save are going to back you in a wrongful death suit if you kill the bad guy...

You obviously ignored the point of my post; "Consequences be damned". I'm not interested in "being noble" or what happens after. I am interested in doing the right thing at the right time as I see it, not as others see it. As I said, "I can live with that".


Another thing to consider:

1) "Hero" good guy comes back in with his 2 legal CA hi-cap mags. The bad guy with a revolver hits good guy who drops his firearm and/or can't use his weak hand to operate. The bad guy comes over, knocks him out, picks up HIS gun and uses the additional ammo and gun to massacre more people.

How would we all feel about that? I would be hella po'd.

Not to start a war here, but this is exactly the sort of argument that the antis are posting right now on other blogs to justify disarming law-abiding citizens; we can't be trusted not to make the situation worse.

djbooya
04-05-2009, 9:31 PM
You obviously ignored the point of my post; "Consequences be damned". I'm not interested in "being noble" or what happens after. I am interested in doing the right thing at the right time as I see it, not as others see it. As I said, "I can live with that".

Point taken.



Originally Posted by djbooya
Another thing to consider:

1) "Hero" good guy comes back in with his 2 legal CA hi-cap mags. The bad guy with a revolver hits good guy who drops his firearm and/or can't use his weak hand to operate. The bad guy comes over, knocks him out, picks up HIS gun and uses the additional ammo and gun to massacre more people.

How would we all feel about that? I would be hella po'd.



Not to start a war here, but this is exactly the sort of argument that the antis are posting right now on other blogs to justify disarming law-abiding citizens; we can't be trusted not to make the situation worse.


(no war started from what I can see) I can agree with the antis on this 1 point: "Non qualified individuals should not be trying to be a hero and picking up a firearm when they are better served calling for help"... Now I know we probably don't agree on the exact statement they are saying and of course the legalese of "non qualified" is left to interpretation... but I don't want a non qualified firearm owner coming to save me.. It's sort of like I don't want someone giving first aid to me that actually doesn't know what they are doing and they move my neck and I become paralyzed as a result.

Maybe not the best analogy, but that's the way I think about it...

nick
04-05-2009, 10:31 PM
And that's why you, Sir, are the kind of citizen this state doesn't want to have - the kind to take responsibility.

I sympathize with the desire to be ultra-legal as well as reasonably immune from civil suit, but my personal opinion is this; if a nut is picking off people at the mall, and I have the potential ability to end it, I will, consequences be damned. I can live with that.

What I couldn't live with is seeing the pictures that evening on the news of the victims (some probably children), and the interviews with the shattered families, while knowing I could have done something, but chose not to.

If my daughter was at that hypothetical mall, I would hope someone would be able and willing to save her life. Thus, I am willing to save others.

JDoe
04-06-2009, 7:08 AM
12031

(a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.

12031 (j)(1) appears to let you run out for your gun and then run back in without calling 911 if you reasonably believe that the person or property of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property as long as you take action prior to the arrival of law enforcement assistance. If it is possible to contact LE then it looks like you have a duty to do so at the earliest time. Chances are that as soon as the shooting started 911 would be receiving calls from many others in the area so I'd guess you could reasonably assume that 911 had been called by someone else. But it seems wise to call 911 if you are able to do so and give them a description of yourself.

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't advice or anything like that but to me all this looks like a pass to do whatever is reasonably necessary to protect innocent life including carrying concealed or open until local law enforcement assistance arrives. 12031 (j)(1) doesn't say anything about carrying open or concealed so doesn't that mean either is fine?

Furthermore if you are engaged in making or attempting to make a lawful arrest...

12031 (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

Some other reasons to carry concealed could include not being mistaken for the active shooter by another (Calguns member?) person with the same intentions as you, not panicking people still in the mall, you don't want the active shooter to see you with a gun and make you his primary focus, etc.

"Non qualified individuals should not be trying to be a hero and picking up a firearm when they are better served calling for help"

In the recent Binghamton, NY shooting (13 dead) the police arrived on scene within 3 minutes of receiving the initial 911 calls. 40 minutes after arriving on scene police entered the building. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/05/AR2009040500117.html?hpid=moreheadlines) From accounts in the referenced article attributed to Broome County District Attorney Gerald F. Mollen the shooter shot himself before police arrived. That means all of the shooting was over in under 3 minutes and before the police arrived.

In an active shooter situation I would much rather have an "unqualified" individual pick up a firearm and intervene now rather than waiting 3 minutes or 40 minutes for police to show up and/or do something.

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 7:53 AM
12031 (j)(1) appears to let you run out for your gun and then run back in without calling 911 if you reasonably believe that the person or property of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property as long as you take action prior to the arrival of law enforcement assistance. If it is possible to contact LE then it looks like you have a duty to do so at the earliest time. Chances are that as soon as the shooting started 911 would be receiving calls from many others in the area so I'd guess you could reasonably assume that 911 had been called by someone else. But it seems wise to call 911 if you are able to do so and give them a description of yourself.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. In the cell phone age, as soon as shots are fired 911 is going to get flooded with calls. Many of those callers are going to have very poor information to offer. So mostly all the COPs are gonna know is "someone at the mall with a gun". So by the time you get out to your car and back, some LEOs could be arriving. If they see you with a gun. you're likely to end up being mistaken for the real shooter and either get shot, or they will hafta waste their time messing with you.

SO!!!....I'd say if you're gonna go back in, load at the car, stick it in your waistband and cover it with your shirt till you're back inside and close enough to the shooter to do something with it. That way, if you can't get close enough, or the LEOs show-up before you can do anything, you can keep your weapon concealed and leave the mall and no one is the wiser.

I think your primary thought focus needs to be on doing things which will not make an already bad situation worse. As the saying go "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

djleisure
04-06-2009, 9:18 AM
I'm not quite sure why everyone is obsessed with your "mall shooting" scenario (although there have been a lot of good responses to it,) but a very legitimate reason for me to LCC is the fact that I live in LA - the actual city, not the outskirts. If some catastrophe were to happen (earthquake, race riot, terrorist attack) I need to get back to my home where I keep all the good stuff (rifles, shotguns, supplies.) So, in a situation where I either need to drive home (if I can) or jog home from work (it's only 5 miles,) I can easily switch to open carry and deter any crazy mofo that wants to harm me or take my stuff. This is the main reason I LCC and may also be relevant to you.

yellowfin
04-06-2009, 9:22 AM
Let's face it, in this state you're screwed if the DA happens to be anti. Looks like we should emphasize DA elections more heavily than we have.

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 9:29 AM
I'm not quite sure why everyone is obsessed with your "mall shooting" scenario (although there have been a lot of good responses to it,) but a very legitimate reason for me to LCC is the fact that I live in LA - the actual city, not the outskirts. If some catastrophe were to happen (earthquake, race riot, terrorist attack) I need to get back to my home where I keep all the good stuff (rifles, shotguns, supplies.) So, in a situation where I either need to drive home (if I can) or jog home from work (it's only 5 miles,) I can easily switch to open carry and deter any crazy mofo that wants to harm me or take my stuff. This is the main reason I LCC and may also be relevant to you.

Very good point! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Although I am still on the fence with open carry....under extreme circumstances like you're citing I could see how it could make you a target also....especially for the gang/criminal types who have guns too and who relish taking advantage of chaotic times like riots and natural disasters. I think I'd still be inclined to conceal it at that point if I had to move on foot and try to keep as low of a profile as I could on my route home.

DDT
04-06-2009, 10:03 AM
I can easily switch to open carry and deter any crazy mofo that wants to harm me or take my stuff.

Good luck with that Mr. Denny.

Backcountry
04-06-2009, 10:23 AM
No way am I running back into a mall to save a bunch of liberal douchebags that voted for liberal politicians and gun control. While the whackjob is sending them to hell, their last thought will be that they wished they had a gun. How ironic...

djleisure
04-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Good luck with that Mr. Denny.
Care to define the obscure reference to Mr. Denny?

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Care to define the obscure reference to Mr. Denny?


reginald denny. truck driver pulled from his truck and beaten with bricks in the head during the rodney king riots.

djbooya
04-06-2009, 10:46 AM
Care to define the obscure reference to Mr. Denny?

I thought about this one...I think he's referring to Reginald Denny:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Oliver_Denny

just guessing

djleisure
04-06-2009, 10:48 AM
Oh. Right. Because that guy had a gun on him. Gotcha... that almost makes sense.

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 11:10 AM
No way am I running back into a mall to save a bunch of liberal douchebags that voted for liberal politicians and gun control. While the whackjob is sending them to hell, their last thought will be that they wished they had a gun. How ironic...

Only thing I could say to that is that perhaps if more of these nutjobs start getting taken down by citizens on the scene then perhaps people will start to see that value in it. Sometimes we have to fight for the rights of people we dont like or agree with to make sure that ALL rights are respected for ALL persons.

Nanook
04-06-2009, 11:21 AM
I'm not quite sure why everyone is obsessed with your "mall shooting" scenario (although there have been a lot of good responses to it,)...
Yes, the mall shooting was just one example that came to mind, I'm interested in the legal procedures for any and all scenarios where it would be a "good idea" to unlock the LC and how to best proceed from there. Like I said, if getting carjacked at gunpoint, it probably would be not so good an idea to go rummaging and insert a magazine...

And two people said things along the lines of "if I had a CCW, my reaction would be much different." Certainly. I don't think there would be nearly as much forethought necessary if you were carrying, as the threat would be immediate, and you would be able to address it then and there. Of course, as someone else said, much thought needs to be put in to drawing a CW any time, but not nearly as much as a LCC.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies so far.

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 11:29 AM
Like I said, if getting carjacked at gunpoint, it probably would be not so good an idea to go rummaging and insert a magazine...

It's thinking about things like that that cause me concern about carrying a weapon in any manner which is easily seperated from my person, ie locked in the car, in backpack/laptop case and so on.

So I'm doing the locked container thing in my car, get carjacked, now I've lost my car AND my gun. Don't care so much about the car....but my gun getting loose in the hands of a criminal is an idea I really don't like.

I think a padlocked pocket on my cargo pants should be considered a locked container! :thumbsup: (Would an unloaded subcompact pistol locked in a small pistol case in my cargo pant pocket still meet the legality of locked container carry?)

IMO there are only 2 places a firearm should be, secured in a holster firmly attached to my body, or in my hand!

AndrewMendez
04-06-2009, 11:33 AM
Its easy! Just kill the badguy only!!:thumbsup:
Realistically speaking, I dont think the whole....I want to be a hero, would be my mind set... it would be more a long the line of, thats someone's family in there.

If i where sued and/or sent to trial for some strange reason for killing the bad guy, but I was able to spare someone's life, then i would be a very Happy cellmate!

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 11:37 AM
If i where sued and/or sent to trial for some strange reason for killing the bad guy, but I was able to spare someone's life, then i would be a very Happy cellmate!

I think any lawyer who would take on such a civil suit against someone who saved lives should be crucified in the media as the worst scum alive and be made to feel utter and complete shame for trying to profit from a tragedy in such a manner.

Any DA who would try to charge a person for acting in defense of others should realize he/she will do so at the peril of any hope of re-election he/she might have.

It's time to put an end to the abuse of our legal system and using it like a lottery ticket.

Lancear15
04-06-2009, 11:55 AM
In the recent Binghamton, NY shooting (13 dead) the police arrived on scene within 3 minutes of receiving the initial 911 calls. 40 minutes after arriving on scene police entered the building. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/05/AR2009040500117.html?hpid=moreheadlines) From accounts in the referenced article attributed to Broome County District Attorney Gerald F. Mollen the shooter shot himself before police arrived. That means all of the shooting was over in under 3 minutes and before the police arrived.

In an active shooter situation I would much rather have an "unqualified" individual pick up a firearm and intervene now rather than waiting 3 minutes or 40 minutes for police to show up and/or do something.

I wonder how many would have lived(not bled to death) if the police would have entered the building right away, 40 minutes sooner. Gotta say LEOs are good for little more then writing tickets and harassing law abiding citizens. CCW is the only solution. If even just a few of the people in the building had CCWs I am willing to bet it would have ended with a lot less people dead.

Untamed1972
04-06-2009, 12:03 PM
I wonder how many would have lived(not bled to death) if the police would have entered the building right away, 40 minutes sooner. Gotta say LEOs are good for little more then writing tickets and harassing law abiding citizens. CCW is the only solution. If even just a few of the people in the building had CCWs I am willing to bet it would have ended with a lot less people dead.


What? That's crazy talk man! Just let police handle it.....that's what they're there for. You don't need to carry a gun, if you're in trouble just call 911. We can't have regular folks walkin' around carrying guns...it would be chaos in the streets for sure! (make sure you read that with the required sarcasm)

Agreed.....seriously....what good is calling the COPs if they're gonna stand around outside for 40mins trying to decide what to do? Aren't they trained in cover and concealment, tactical movement and room clearing and so on? Well time to step up guys....that badge and the gun are for more than gettin' you out of traffic tickets! (I thought most PDs had changed their tactics and policies about how to handle such situations after Columbine?) If you want us unqualified citizens to leave this kinda stuff to you....then you'd better damn well get in there and get the job done! Oh wait....I forgot....you have no legal obligation to protect anyone. Sorry...as you were.