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View Full Version : Preaching to Choir: Victim Mindset and Helplessness


xLusi0n
04-03-2009, 2:29 PM
I've been thinking about this a lot, well before today's NY shootings and the common theme in all of these active shooter killings is that nearly everyone chose flight over fight. (The only person that I read about fighting in the Virginia Tech incident was an old holocaust survivor that tried to block a door.) And I don't necessarily think that it's because they were all cowards, but rather, years of societal changes have made us reliant upon law enforcement for protection. It is a social norm that police officers are here for our protection therefore we do not need to take steps to protect ourselves. Like in a bee hive where everyone has an assigned job, LEOs are here to protect us and we are to go about our daily lives.

Despite the aftermath of Columbine and Virginia Tech, the AARs and responses have been to better train and equip LEOs to respond to an active shooter in the school. Or students would conduct defensive drills. Why aren't we rehearsing using offensive tactics and ingraining into peoples mind that when there's an active shooter, you should attack the shooter ... and teach them tactics to do so or arming teachers, etc... All the solutions to counter this problem has been on the LEO side or how to better "flight," not "fight."

I think the whole "LEO is to protect people" school of thinking also applies to the reports we read about people getting attacked in public places while everyone watches. I don't think everyone of the people who just watched were scared or cowards...they were all probably waiting for a cop to show up to stop the attacker because that's the normal thought process for them.

I know the demographics of the board here are not of this social norm. We, for the most part, own guns so that we do not have to rely on LEO to protect us. However, we are a minority.

What's even worse is that after each instance of this, laws are passed making us even more reliant on the LEOs. (Banning guns etc...)

Just ranting.

rabagley
04-03-2009, 3:03 PM
It's not limited to the simple assertion that law enforcement is here to protect you. There's an additional negative assertion that doing anything to protect yourself is either actual vigilantism or morally/ethically equivalent to vigilantism.

It always amazes me that people actually expect the cops to show up in time to prevent a crime. The job of the police, as I see it, is to clean up afterwards, explain who done it, and help console the bereaved.

Here's the fact: you want someone to stop the crime, you're going to have to do it yourself.

tyrist
04-03-2009, 7:41 PM
If escape were practical...real escape as in putting some major distance and/or objects between you and the threat; it should be taken. You are going to get hurt/killed fighting. Now with that said sometimes flight is not possible and then you had best start fighting back unless you want to just lay down and die.

JDoe
04-03-2009, 8:05 PM
There is a little more than fight or flight...

...fight, flight and freeze - are survival reflexes (http://www.healing-arts.org/tir/n-r-rothschild.htm#PTSD_survival). If perception in the Limbic System is that there is adequate strength, time and space for flight, then the body breaks into a run. If the Limbic perception is that there is not time to flee, but there is adequate strength to defend, then the body will fight. If the Limbic System perceives that there is neither time nor strength for fight or flight and death could be imminent, then the body will freeze. In this state, the victim of trauma enters an altered reality - it is one form of dissociation. Time slows down and there is no fear or pain. In this state, if harm or death do occur, the impact is not so great. People who have fallen from great heights, such as over cliffs, and survived, report just such a reaction. This freezing response may also increase chances of survival. If the cause of the freeze is an attack by man or beast, the attacker may lose interest when the prey has gone dead, as a cat will lose interest in a lifeless mouse.

It is important to understand that these Limbic System/ANS responses are instinctive, not chosen by thoughtful consideration, but are reflex actions...

Fight-or-Flight and Freeze Reactions (http://www.utsa.edu/tsi/2002tsi/People/anguiano/index.htm)

Fight, Flight or Freeze:Understanding and training within the sympathetic nervous system (http://www.ais-sim.com/pdf/news/070122_fight_flight_freeze.pdf)

Suvorov
04-04-2009, 8:01 AM
I agree with the main idea of this thread 100%. Look at the shootings here as well as in Europe and it looks as though most of the victims offered little resistance to the shooters. I agree, something inside them prevented them from acting and I think that the societal mindset of waiting for "police to come" is a large part of it. Contrast these shootings to the shooting at Fort Bragg back in the 1990s where a disgruntled soldier began shooting (with an AR I believe) at a formation of soldiers during PT. Instead of running or offering themselves up as victims, the soldiers quickly reacted as they had been trained and flanked the shooter capturing him and holding him for the MPs.

What is the difference? The difference is training and a precondition to respond. If you look at these school/hospital/nursinghome/immigration center shootings, the criminal is either consciously or subconsciously (I would say the latter just as a hyena knows which animals are weak without thinking about it) selecting a target that will not only be weakly defended but also where the victims are unlikely to resist.

So in the end, it is like the saying goes: "Lambs to the slaughter" and our government (especially in the cities) does everything in its power to ensure that the few sheepdogs that may be amongst them, are de-fanged and de-clawed.

PatriotnMore
04-04-2009, 8:12 AM
I would also suggest, its not prudent to show up to a gun fight with your bare hands. The saying of law enforcement runs to gun fire, while the public runs away, is not very well thought out. Anyone faced with a gun, with nothing to fight back with, is going to put distance between them and the threat, if possible.

If, there were as many armed civilians, as LEO, I would assert there would be many non LEO running to the gun fire, knowing they could defend themselves, and stop the assault.

When we talk of such issues, lets not forget how many have served and were trained to fight back, there are more than a few walking around you everyday.

gd-bh
04-04-2009, 8:16 AM
We've all heard the "you fight as you train" mantra. Well, what does our society "train" our kids for? Well to run of course. What school doesn't have a "zero tolerance" policy for kids fighting? "run and tell the teacher" is taught to our future generation, and those who stand up for themselves are punished as equally as those who are the aggressor. Our society is training our kids to not defend themselves, but to rely on "teacher" when the chips are down. How do you think they'll react in real life when real mean people are attacking them? The same way we taught them as kids.

This has been going on for decades..is it any wonder our mainstream response is to not defend itself, and to rely on the cops (teacher) to save us from the bad guy (bully)? Take this to the next level...don't think for a minute that when the time does come some foreign country invades us that we won't wait for the military (teacher) to save us from the invaders (bully) because that's exactly what we've been trained to do. (Isn't that exactly what those who think the 2A is a collective right want to happen anyway?)

I'm certainly not advocating bedlam be allowed on the school grounds, but I think the answer to the original question is simply that's what we've trained ourselves to do from the earliest ages.

Suvorov
04-04-2009, 8:30 AM
We've all heard the "you fight as you train" mantra. Well, what does our society "train" our kids for? Well to run of course. What school doesn't have a "zero tolerance" policy for kids fighting? "run and tell the teacher" is taught to our future generation, and those who stand up for themselves are punished as equally as those who are the aggressor. Our society is training our kids to not defend themselves, but to rely on "teacher" when the chips are down. How do you think they'll react in real life when real mean people are attacking them? The same way we taught them as kids.


Very Well Said! :thumbsup:

I have told my wife that if our son (or daughter) gets sent home from school for standing up to a bully or other intolerable behavior, they will receive NO punishment from me.

I have often wondered what part this "zero tolerance" attitude towards fighting in schools has played in tragedies like Columbine. Good kids are picked on and ridiculed by bullies but they have no means to fight back; they don't want to get into trouble for fighting but the bullies laugh at teachers attempts to "resolve" the situation. In the end, the anger and frustration just keeps building and building. Mix in some medication and what do you end up with? :confused:

nicki
04-04-2009, 11:37 AM
Very Well Said!

I have told my wife that if our son (or daughter) gets sent home from school for standing up to a bully or other intolerable behavior, they will receive NO punishment from me.

I have often wondered what part this "zero tolerance" attitude towards fighting in schools has played in tragedies like Columbine. Good kids are picked on and ridiculed by bullies but they have no means to fight back; they don't want to get into trouble for fighting but the bullies laugh at teachers attempts to "resolve" the situation. In the end, the anger and frustration just keeps building and building. Mix in some medication and what do you end up with?
__________________


You hit it on the head, and it amazes me how many people don't see this.

I told my Son that if he gets attacked in school that he has to fight back, otherwise he is going to have problems with bullies. I also told him that he probably would get suspended, but if he defended himself, he is okay with me.

Well, he got into one fight, got suspended, but that was it.

What bothers me is there are parents who accept that their kids do bad things and won't address things with their kids.

There are bad kids and they need to be dealt with early on and not with the "do gooder cool aid crap".

Students need to be told that they have to respect each others rights and that if they can't, they will be held accountable.

If a parent can't control a child, I have no issue with the child being sent to a military style boot camp to straigthen them out. In fact, we should make this available to parents.

Nicki

KylaGWolf
04-04-2009, 6:41 PM
I always told my daughter IF you start the fight you are toast if you defend yourself I won't be mad even if you do get suspended. Luckily she never got into a fight. My daughter though WILL stand up for others which is a good thing.

I know from volunteering at my daughters schools that a lot of the times the schools or at least some attempt to deal with the ones causing problems but then their parents come in and threaten or do sue and it makes to where the teachers and staff have no control and the kids don't have to answer for their actions.

I also know from my time as an intern for a probation department (juvenile) that when it comes down to it a lot of times the kids KNOW they can break rules and unless it is a felony get nothing but a "bad boy/girl don't do it again speech." Personally I vote for the bootcamp thing too maybe just maybe it might be a wake up call. Better yet instead of anti gun laws for the general popluation get the courts to deal with the scum bags that are the problem. sorry the last bit is my frustration at a system that let us down recently but that is a whole nother non gun related story.

RRangel
04-04-2009, 8:04 PM
What bothers me is there are parents who accept that their kids do bad things and won't address things with their kids.

There are bad kids and they need to be dealt with early on and not with the "do gooder cool aid crap".

This is a major problem. Also a large percentage of crime is committed by youths in their teen years, and then young adults. From grand theft auto to gang banging.