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View Full Version : deceased RAW owner - how to handle?


drewski310
04-03-2009, 10:23 AM
My friend's father passed away. He was a gun enthusiast. I'm advising him on the intra-familial handgun transfer. His non-RAW long guns are a non-issue from what I'm reading, but his father also owned at least one RAW.

Two questions:
1) Does he need to include a death cert or other documentation to go with the oplaw form?

2) I'm advising him to strip down the RAW until we figure out what needs to be done with the stripped lower. How should he handle this to stay 100% legal?

Any advice is appreciated.

Dirtbiker
04-03-2009, 10:27 AM
You can't transfer the RAWs. They either go out of state or you have to surrender the registered receiver.

If it's an AR just strip it down to nothing and turn in the bare receiver.

Jicko
04-03-2009, 10:30 AM
Put them in his grave....

If it's me, I'd like mine to go with me....

The SoCal Gunner
04-03-2009, 10:33 AM
You can't transfer the RAWs. They either go out of state or you have to surrender the registered receiver.

If it's an AR just strip it down to nothing and turn in the bare receiver.

Even if you strip it down, wouldn't the receiver still be a registered AW? How exactly does one de-register a deceased person's AWs?

DarkHorse
04-03-2009, 10:35 AM
Even if you strip it down, wouldn't the receiver still be a registered AW? How exactly does one de-register a deceased person's AWs?

Yes, the stripped lower would still be a RAW. It can't be de-registered, which is why you have to turn in the serialized receiver, but you can keep all of the parts, as the lower receiver is the only regulated part.

domokun
04-03-2009, 10:40 AM
My friend's father passed away. He was a gun enthusiast. I'm advising him on the intra-familial handgun transfer. His non-RAW long guns are a non-issue from what I'm reading, but his father also owned at least one RAW.

Two questions:
1) Does he need to include a death cert or other documentation to go with the oplaw form?

2) I'm advising him to strip down the RAW until we figure out what needs to be done with the stripped lower. How should he handle this to stay 100% legal?

Any advice is appreciated.

If your friend's father just passed away, the executor of the estate has 90 days to sell the RAW out of state through a permitted CA RAW dealer or take it into out of state and consign it at a shop there. However if it's been more than 90 days, the only option is to strip the RAW down to the parts and then make arrangements with a lawyer to have the RAW receiver surrendered to LE for destruction.

If the RAW is a listed by name lower receiver, there is no way you can turn it into an OLL.

socalgunrunner
04-03-2009, 10:40 AM
Please tell us what type of RAW it is, before everyone starts assuming that it's an AR.

At any rate, this is from the CA DOJ:

Can I inherit and keep a registered assault weapon?

No. Pursuant to California Penal Code section 12285(b), any person who obtains title to a registered assault weapon by bequest or intestate succession shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer who has a permit from the Department of Justice to purchase assault weapons, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice to possess assault weapons, or remove the weapon from this state.

Omega13device
04-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Please tell us what type of RAW it is, before everyone starts assuming that it's an AR.

At any rate, this is from the CA DOJ:

Can I inherit and keep a registered assault weapon?

No. Pursuant to California Penal Code section 12285(b), any person who obtains title to a registered assault weapon by bequest or intestate succession shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer who has a permit from the Department of Justice to purchase assault weapons, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice to possess assault weapons, or remove the weapon from this state.
I don't see anything in 12285 PC that would prohibit the person inheriting the RAW from selling it out of state, as long as it is out of the state within 90 days. The last option in the section above is "...or remove the weapon from this state." That would seem to cover it. The use of a dealer with an AW permit only appears to apply if you're selling it WITHIN California.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong (and cite PC - no "I heard from my friend...").

bwiese
04-03-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't see anything in 12285 PC that would prohibit the person inheriting the RAW from selling it out of state, as long as it is out of the state within 90 days. The last option in the section above is "...or remove the weapon from this state." That would seem to cover it. The use of a dealer with an AW permit only appears to apply if you're selling it WITHIN California.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong (and cite PC - no "I heard from my friend...").


This is correct. But that AW has to move outta state in 90 day period - I can't recall if that's from start of probate (likely) or actual death (unlikely).

If it is shipped outta state it must use the services of a CA FFL w/AW permit.
If it is carried out of state by executor/agent, the AW permittee is not required.

I think it'd be a good idea to dismantle AW however. Drama can and has happened in these cases - including to a knowledgable FFL.

RP1911
04-03-2009, 11:49 AM
Hmmm. We are going to have a lot of these happening in the next few years.

The state did not allow those who had kids under 18 at the time to joint register the RAWs.

Can't this be challenged as:

1) a 'taking'

2) interfering with probate law

3) equal protection?

Unfortunately some of us were not savvy enough to establish a trust back then and register it to the trust.

leitung
04-03-2009, 12:00 PM
Here is what I would do...
Strip the damm thing down, keep the upper e.t.c. here, and send the lower out of state.

Here is an interesting question, say I meet someone FTF out of state, what do I need to do to sell to someone in say Nevada? I would probably need to do it though a Nevada FFL correct? As I am an out of state seller?

If you can legally sell the lower out of state, you could take the money, buy a OLL and re assemble the assault weapon into a legal configuration (i.e. BB with 10 round mag)

nicki
04-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Could you please tell us what make firearm it is.

Everyone is assuming AR15, but there were over 50 guns on original Roberti Roos list.

For instance, if it is a streetsweeper or striker 12, you can't take it out of state without getting the BATF's permission first since it would also be a "destructive device", courtesy of Clinton and executive orders, regardless of wheter it has a 18 inch plus barrel.

Nicki

socalgunrunner
04-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Here is what I would do...
Strip the damm thing down, keep the upper e.t.c. here, and send the lower out of state.

Here is an interesting question, say I meet someone FTF out of state, what do I need to do to sell to someone in say Nevada? I would probably need to do it though a Nevada FFL correct? As I am an out of state seller?

If you can legally sell the lower out of state, you could take the money, buy a OLL and re assemble the assault weapon into a legal configuration (i.e. BB with 10 round mag)

The OP never stated that it was an AR (although it might be).

What would you recommend if it was a Calico M-900, or a Steyr Aug?

DDT
04-03-2009, 12:10 PM
What would you recommend if it was a Calico M-900, or a Steyr Aug?

2 garbage bags, a lot a silica and a shovel?

socalgunrunner
04-03-2009, 12:32 PM
2 garbage bags, a lot a silica and a shovel?

That reminds of back in the day when they used to advertise those air-tight plastic burial tubes in The Shotgun News.

For use in the post-apocalyptic zombie infested world, no doubt. :)

DarkHorse
04-03-2009, 12:33 PM
The OP may not have mentioned "AR-15," but there is mention of a "stripped lower." AR's are not the only firearms with stripped lowers, but I believe they would all be handled the same way under these circumstances.

domokun
04-03-2009, 1:05 PM
Here is an interesting question, say I meet someone FTF out of state, what do I need to do to sell to someone in say Nevada? I would probably need to do it though a Nevada FFL correct? As I am an out of state seller?

If you can legally sell the lower out of state, you could take the money, buy a OLL and re assemble the assault weapon into a legal configuration (i.e. BB with 10 round mag)

Since you're a resident of CA, you must go through a FFL in NV to legally sell the firearm due to the fact that it's a intrastate sale between residents of two different states.

Untamed1972
04-03-2009, 2:25 PM
Here is what I would do...
Strip the damm thing down, keep the upper e.t.c. here, and send the lower out of state.

Here is an interesting question, say I meet someone FTF out of state, what do I need to do to sell to someone in say Nevada? I would probably need to do it though a Nevada FFL correct? As I am an out of state seller?

If you can legally sell the lower out of state, you could take the money, buy a OLL and re assemble the assault weapon into a legal configuration (i.e. BB with 10 round mag)

ditto that thought if it is actually and AR. Perhaps maybe you could even find someone out of state with an OLL that would trade you for it.

ad6mj
04-03-2009, 2:34 PM
How about if you're friend has his name legally changed so that it is the same as his father's?

stormy_clothing
04-03-2009, 2:36 PM
it always makes me chuckle on a forum so hell bent on not ceding ownership to guns how far people will go to keep repeating the same legal info on how to do just that.

I'm not going to say you should do this, but fyi

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/ar_refinishing.htm

drewski310
04-03-2009, 6:31 PM
Hi All,
Thanks for the info. I'm headed to his father's viewing right now and we're burying him tomorrow, so the details on the RAW will have to wait. But yes it is an AR15-style RAW built in the mid 80s. There is no need to fret however, because his father saw to it that his son also owned his own RAW. I just wished I listened to his father back in the day when he urged me to do the same before the AWB...oh well.

wayneco
05-23-2009, 1:39 PM
Since you're a resident of CA, you must go through a FFL in NV to legally sell the firearm due to the fact that it's a intrastate sale between residents of two different states.

I'm not sure that's true. He could take it to the Reno gun show, sell it private party to a Nevadan and there is no FFL or reporting required as long as it's a long-gun, correct? FFL xfers between people of two states only required when it's a concealable weapon -- i.e. a pistol, etc.

ke6guj
05-23-2009, 1:48 PM
I'm not sure that's true. He could take it to the Reno gun show, sell it private party to a Nevadan and there is no FFL or reporting required as long as it's a long-gun, correct? FFL xfers between people of two states only required when it's a concealable weapon -- i.e. a pistol, etc.

incorrect. It doesn't matter if it is a long gun or a handgun. Transfers of firearms between unlicensed residents of different states must use an FFL in the recipient's state to facilitate the transfer.

saki302
05-23-2009, 2:18 PM
I'd just strip it down and have the executor take a sledge hammer to the receiver and trash it. It's not worth the $100 to sell, and he is 'disposing' of it within the 90 day period- disposing of it PERMANENTLY.

-Dave

Theseus
05-23-2009, 2:45 PM
Why can't he try to register it? If he gets the approval through the DOJ then he can just keep it.

wilit
05-23-2009, 3:16 PM
Hmmm. We are going to have a lot of these happening in the next few years.

The state did not allow those who had kids under 18 at the time to joint register the RAWs.

Can't this be challenged as:

1) a 'taking'

2) interfering with probate law

3) equal protection?

Unfortunately some of us were not savvy enough to establish a trust back then and register it to the trust.

I agree. reading the FAQ from the CADOJ website:

Can I inherit and keep a registered assault weapon?

No. Pursuant to California Penal Code section 12285(b), any person who obtains title to a registered assault weapon by bequest or intestate succession shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer who has a permit from the Department of Justice to purchase assault weapons, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice to possess assault weapons, or remove the weapon from this state.

Since they are essentially saying right there, the only way to keep it is to apply for a permit, it would seem that denlial of that permit to anyone eligible to own a firearm would be a clear violation of the 2A.

tonelar
05-23-2009, 3:36 PM
I'd just strip it down and have the executor take a sledge hammer to the receiver and trash it. It's not worth the $100 to sell, and he is 'disposing' of it within the 90 day period- disposing of it PERMANENTLY.

-Dave
Why waste it?

Strip it and sell the receiver on GBroker.

krushem2000
05-23-2009, 4:25 PM
just shove the whole rifle in safe somewhere and never bring it to light and wait until its a C&R then bring it out again.

TatankaGap
05-23-2009, 4:33 PM
just shove the whole rifle in safe somewhere and never bring it to light and wait until its a C&R then bring it out again.

Or, maybe create a trust out of state, sell it to the trust and ship it out via FFL to FFL - write up the trust document so that during the time of uncertainty from the period when the 2A was incorporated to the 9th Cir via Nordyke (even though it might go en banc), and in light of the possibility that the CA AW ban may be lifted and/or modified to reflect the incorporation of the 2A in California as a fundamental individual right, one could reasonably instruct the trustee to hold the RAW in trust for some stated period of time (less than too long) and if before the end of that time, the AW ban is lifted or the RAW in question would be allowed, then it can be re-transferred to the person creating the trust; if such does not happen by the deadline stated in the trust document, it must be transferred to a non-CA person otherwise eligible to receive the RAW at that time -

Until the trigger date, you and/or other CA interested members of deceased's family could go out of state and visit with the RAW for shooting vacations - just depends how far you would want to take it ;)

Just my two cents.....FWIW -:cool2:

Centurion_D
05-23-2009, 8:13 PM
Put them in his grave....

If it's me, I'd like mine to go with me....

I'm praying for the day when this stupid cali ban dies so RAW owners can pass them down to our children. That's what I'm waiting for.

CALI-gula
05-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I agree. reading the FAQ from the CADOJ website:



Since they are essentially saying right there, the only way to keep it is to apply for a permit, it would seem that denial of that permit to anyone eligible to own a firearm would be a clear violation of the 2A.

What a great test case for Heller application in the state of CA - using this. It's a commonly owned gun, it's comparable to other guns just like it in both action, cartridge, power, etc., and the person applying for such a permit should not be blocked in obtaining it; the gun itself is registered by serial number and to person; isn't this what the state wants anyway? This fits their Gestapo schemes nicely, however, say if this were a pedestrian Mini-14, it would not. Why would they NOT allow it to be transferred to someone who has obtained a permit? What would be their reasons for not allowing it - that it can "spray bullets from the hip?". :rolleyes:

.

TatankaGap
05-24-2009, 12:48 AM
I'm praying for the day when this stupid cali ban dies so RAW owners can pass them down to our children. That's what I'm waiting for.

that day is coming soon; plan for the best :chris:

NIB
05-24-2009, 9:21 AM
Strip it down and keep parts, sell lower out of state, buy OLL, rebuild.

motorhead
05-24-2009, 11:37 AM
first check to see if it's listed! some registered right after the ban just to be safe. if it aint it can be deregistered. if it's listed sell on gb or aa. ship to buyers ffl. (note-ftf interstate sales=gunrunning charges) that way no transfer expenses on your end, buyer pays their ffl fees.

lobonegro
05-24-2009, 12:04 PM
Much cheaper to slap a new receiver and call it a day than go thru the living trust.

JDay
05-24-2009, 2:56 PM
Yes, the stripped lower would still be a RAW. It can't be de-registered, which is why you have to turn in the serialized receiver, but you can keep all of the parts, as the lower receiver is the only regulated part.

It would be best to have a lawyer turn in the lower, you wouldn't want a transporting charge.

REDHORSE
05-24-2009, 3:43 PM
Yes, the stripped lower would still be a RAW. It can't be de-registered, which is why you have to turn in the serialized receiver, but you can keep all of the parts, as the lower receiver is the only regulated part.

Bull. :fud:

If it's an unlisted Roberti Roos RAW, it can be De-Registered.

A very close friend De-Registered over 20 RAWs to sell the bare receivers. He had ~40 registered Imbel FAL receivers, he eventually sold about half of them to fund other gun purchases.

NorCalPatriot
05-25-2009, 12:36 PM
I would take it out of state and store it someplace safe for future use. Nothing prohibts possession after its crossed state lines. There are places in Nevada and Oregon that will "rent" space for firearm storage.

Why sell it when you can keep it and see/use it on vacations?

Bugei
05-26-2009, 8:47 AM
I would take it out of state and store it someplace safe for future use. Nothing prohibts possession after its crossed state lines. There are places in Nevada and Oregon that will "rent" space for firearm storage.

Why sell it when you can keep it and see/use it on vacations?

+1. I use such a service myself for things I didn't want to register and didn't want to keep at home. Someday the sun will shine on these rifles again, once we grind through the courts for a couple of years to beat morality into the law again.

luchador768
05-26-2009, 2:24 PM
Why can't he try to register it? If he gets the approval through the DOJ then he can just keep it.


I don't think that in the 10 years since the ban it has ever happened. The whole point of the ban was to eliminate certain types of firearms within one lifetime. The OLL movement pretty much sank that dream though!:thumbsup:

krushem2000
06-01-2009, 4:15 PM
Save yourself the hassle just dont bring it to light again. Dont even mention it. How many guns are out there in C&R status that would end up on AW ban list if CA imposed one again? Like Bill Clinton says "Dont ask, Dont tell policy" should apply here.