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View Full Version : Initial Shotgun Legality Flowchart thread.


ke6guj
04-02-2009, 11:53 PM
Now that we pretty much have the handgun legality chart fleshed out, I figured we start brainstorming on the shotgun legality chart.

I've already charted out the main logic flow, and we'll add in the PC sections and defintions to it as we go.

Anybody see anything I missed, please let me know.

For now, here is just the text logic flow. We'll get it graphed out soon.



1. Is the fiream a muzzleloader?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

2. Does the firearm shoot more than one shot with a single function of the trigger?
Yes, illegal. No, continue

3. Is the firearm designed to shoot fixed shotgun shells?
No, Not a shotgun, END. Yes, continue

4. Is the shotgun a USAS-12, Striker-12, or Streetsweeper?
No, continue. Yes, illegal unless registered with ATF as a Destructive Device. If properly registered, contine

5. Does the firearm meet the defintion of an AOW, and registered with BATF as an AOW?
Yes, skip to #7. No, continue

6. Is the shotgun have a barrel less than 18" long, or an overall length less than 26" long (measured with stock folded or collapsed)?
Yes, violates 12020(a) and ****** . No, continue

7. Is the shotgun registered as an AW?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

8. Is the shotgun listed as an AW?
Yes, Illegal, END. No, continue.

9. Does the shotgun have a revolving cylinder?
Yes, Illegal. No, continue.

10. is the shotgun semi-automatic?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

11. Does the semi-automatic shotgun have a detachable magazine?
Yes, illegal, END. No, continue.

12. Does the semi-automatic shotgun have a folding or telescoping stock?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

13. Does the semi-automatic shotgun also have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip?
No, legal. Yes, Illegal



latest revision.
CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r1.18-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104852902/58b40f75/CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r119-SideA-B.html)

lioneaglegriffin
04-03-2009, 12:21 AM
Now that we pretty much have the handgun legality chart fleshed out, I figured we start brainstorming on the shotgun legality chart.

I've already charted out the main logic flow, and we'll add in the PC sections and defintions to it as we go.

Anybody see anything I missed, please let me know.

For now, here is just the text logic flow. We'll get it graphed out soon.



1. Is the fiream a muzzleloader?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

2. Does the firearm shoot more than one shot with a single function of the trigger?
Yes, illegal. No, continue

3. Is the firearm designed to shoot fixed shotgun shells?
No, Not a shotgun, END. Yes, continue

4. Does the firearm meet the defintion of an AOW, and registered with BATF as an AOW?
Yes, skip to #6

5. Is the shotgun have a barrel less than 18" long, or an overall length less than 26" long (measured with stock folded or collapsed)?
Yes, violates 12020(a) and ****** . No, continue

6. Is the shotgun registered as an AW?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

7. Does the shotgun have a revolving cylinder?
Yes, Illegal. No, continue.

8. is the shotgun semi-automatic?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

9. Does the shotgun have a detachable magazine?
Yes, illegal, END. No, continue.

10. Does the shotgun have a folding or telescoping stock?
No, legal. Yes, continue.

11. Does the shotgun have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip?
No, legal. Yes, Illegal

*11. Pistol Grips are legal. (on i semi-auto so long as it the only feature)

need to specify between pump action and semi-automatic.

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 12:26 AM
*11. Pistol Grips are legal. (on i semi-auto so long as it the only feature)

need to specify between pump action and semi-automatic.
If you follow the flow, #8 asks if semi-auto. If not, then you are done with the chart and are legal.

Then, if you get down to #10 and you don't have a folding or telescoping stock, then you are done with the chart. And you would not get to #11 which asks about the PG. You only get to the PG question if you have a semi-auto shotgun that has a folding/collapsable stock.

kurt_r
04-03-2009, 12:26 AM
A pistol grip-only firearm (26" min OAL, 18" min bbl) that shoots fixed shotgun shells through a smooth bore is not considered a shotgun under the CA definition of a shotgun. CA PC 12020(c)(21) ("...intended to be fired from the shoulder..."). Can a semi-auto pistol-grip-only smoothbore firearm have a detachable magazine?

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 12:40 AM
A pistol grip-only firearm (26" min OAL, 18" min bbl) that shoots fixed shotgun shells through a smooth bore is not considered a shotgun under the CA definition of a shotgun. CA PC 12020(c)(21) ("...intended to be fired from the shoulder..."). Can a semi-auto pistol-grip-only smoothbore firearm have a detachable magazine?good question. My personal feeling is that if that "shotgun" NEVER had a shoulder stock, then it never meets the CA definition of a shotgun, and the shotgun AW regs don't apply. That thought has come up with the Taurus Judge with it being an SBS, and some people saying it would be a shotgun AW since it has a revolving cylinder. If it isn't a shotgun, then the shotgun AW regs don't apply, and we only have to deal with the SBS issue, which can be negated by having it made into an AOW.

Since I haven't heard of that opinion being stated that the shotgun AW regs only apply to those firearms that were designed to be fired from the shoulder, I didn't include it in the flowchart.

The trick with your question is that you'd have to make your own semi-auto detachable-magged PG-only smoothbore firearm that was 18"/26" since nobody make a production gun with that description and you can't just take a Saiga-12 and remove the shoulderstock. Maybe if you demilled a Saiga-12, rolled your own flat, and built your own PG-only firearm.

lioneaglegriffin
04-03-2009, 12:55 AM
If you follow the flow, #8 asks if semi-auto. If not, then you are done with the chart and are legal.

Then, if you get down to #10 and you don't have a folding or telescoping stock, then you are done with the chart. And you would not get to #11 which asks about the PG. You only get to the PG question if you have a semi-auto shotgun that has a folding/collapsable stock.

oh ic

redneckshootist
04-03-2009, 12:57 AM
good question. My personal feeling is that if that "shotgun" NEVER had a shoulder stock, then it never meets the CA definition of a shotgun, and the shotgun AW regs don't apply. That thought has come up with the Taurus Judge with it being an SBS, and some people saying it would be a shotgun AW since it has a revolving cylinder. If it isn't a shotgun, then the shotgun AW regs don't apply, and we only have to deal with the SBS issue, which can be negated by having it made into an AOW.

Since I haven't heard of that opinion being stated that the shotgun AW regs only apply to those firearms that were designed to be fired from the shoulder, I didn't include it in the flowchart.

The trick with your question is that you'd have to make your own semi-auto detachable-magged PG-only smoothbore firearm that was 18"/26" since nobody make a production gun with that description and you can't just take a Saiga-12 and remove the shoulderstock. Maybe if you demilled a Saiga-12, rolled your own flat, and built your own PG-only firearm.
We should expand on this a little. I just got my 07 FFL. would if I were to design a semi-auto detachable mag AOW that never recieved a stock.
ETA: not a fed AOW, 18in barrel 26 in long overall

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 1:12 AM
We should expand on this a little. I just got my 07 FFL. would if I were to design a semi-auto detachable mag AOW that never recieved a stock.
ETA: not a fed AOW, 18in barrel 26 in long overall

IIRC, guys like bwiese and hoffmang have opined that a PG-only long gun did not meet the definition of a rifle, and that the rifle AW regs did not apply to it. And it has also been opined that an .50BMG M2HB did not meet the definition of a rifle, and therefore did not violate the .50BMG rifle ban. But, whenever people ask about the Taurus Judge, somebody always seems to bring up that it is a Shotgun AW since it has a revolving cylinder.

As for using your 07FFL to design a semi-auto detachable magged PG-only "cruser", that would be sweet. And I could definitely see getting an AOW tax stamp to cut that baby down as well.

wash
04-03-2009, 8:39 AM
That sounds kind of cool, but you said PG-only, is there anything stopping you from adding a VFG?

VFG + PG seems like the best way to control something like that.

Greg-Dawg
04-03-2009, 9:14 AM
Draw a chart please, a good portion of people are visual learners.

gose
04-03-2009, 9:27 AM
Want to get into the 922(r) mess?
It seems to be one of the subjects people have the hardest time to grasp, but it's all federal though...

You might also want to add tube length there, since it is fully possible to have a tube that takes 10+ rounds and thus making it an AW.

Coffee
04-03-2009, 10:03 AM
So a pump action can have a folding or collapsible stock but semi cannot?


What are the restrictions on how short the shotgun can be while the pump shotguns stock is folded or collapsed?

I'll assume the pump shotgun should not be able to be fired while stock is folded or collapsed.

Davidwhitewolf
04-03-2009, 10:06 AM
For clarity, how about:

8. is the shotgun semi-automatic?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

9. Does the semi-automatic shotgun have a detachable magazine?
Yes, illegal, END. No, continue.

10. Does the semi-automatic shotgun also have a folding or telescoping stock?
No, legal. Yes, continue.

11. Does the semi-automatic shotgun also have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip?
No, legal. Yes, Illegal

Jarhead4
04-03-2009, 10:16 AM
Want to get into the 922(r) mess?
It seems to be one of the subjects people have the hardest time to grasp, but it's all federal though...

You might also want to add tube length there, since it is fully possible to have a tube that takes 10+ rounds and thus making it an AW.

I thought that tube magazines were exempt? Or is that just for .22's?

Also, I wasn't sure if a detachable magazine was an issue either.

If we apply the theory that we have for off list lowers, wouldn't a model change allow you to bring in a street sweeper type shotgun? Unless this is covered some where else in the penal code which would not allow it then please excuse my ignorance.

wash
04-03-2009, 10:21 AM
A separate 922(r) flowchart would be great. I don't think it would be good to integrate it, it would make a simple flowchart very busy. If it were a separate worksheet that would work well.

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 11:41 AM
That sounds kind of cool, but you said PG-only, is there anything stopping you from adding a VFG?

VFG + PG seems like the best way to control something like that.If the shogun is over 26" long, a VFG is not an issue.


Draw a chart please, a good portion of people are visual learners.

It will be, this is to start the logic flow so that we can visualize it.


Want to get into the 922(r) mess?
It seems to be one of the subjects people have the hardest time to grasp, but it's all federal though...

You might also want to add tube length there, since it is fully possible to have a tube that takes 10+ rounds and thus making it an AW.
This chart will be "for the firearm as it appears in front of you. It is not a 922(r) violation to own a firearm with more than 10 of the listed imported parts.

good point on the mag tube.


So a pump action can have a folding or collapsible stock but semi cannot?


What are the restrictions on how short the shotgun can be while the pump shotguns stock is folded or collapsed?

I'll assume the pump shotgun should not be able to be fired while stock is folded or collapsed.

There are no limitations on a pump action other than the SBS regs.

A semi-auto can have a folding or collapsable stock if it doesn't also have a PG, VFG or thumbhole stock.

It is legal for a pump-action shotgun to be fireable while the stock is folded/collapsed, IF in that configuration, it is more than 26" long. If the shotgun cannot be fired in that config, it can be below 26", similar to those CA-legal folding Kel-tecs.


For clarity, how about:

<snip>
noted.


I thought that tube magazines were exempt? Or is that just for .22's?

Also, I wasn't sure if a detachable magazine was an issue either.

If we apply the theory that we have for off list lowers, wouldn't a model change allow you to bring in a street sweeper type shotgun? Unless this is covered some where else in the penal code which would not allow it then please excuse my ignorance.Tubular mags are exempt for .22lr's and lever-action firearms. there is no exemption for pump-actions or semi-autos that aren't .22lr.

Detachable magazine only applies to semi-auto shotguns.

Forgot about those listed shotgun AWs. An off-list version of the SPAS-12 or LAW-12 might be ok, but IIRC, the striker and streetsweeper are considered DD per the feds, and I don't know what they think about a name change voiding teh DD ruling.

wash
04-03-2009, 11:52 AM
So, if I set up a trust, buy a Saiga 12 and a Nodak Spud receiver (for the trust), I can swap the Saiga parts on to the Nodak receiver, use AK type FCG and pistol grip with no stock (making an AOW), add a VFG and everything is OK if it's over 26" long.

Can I get a SBS stamp and have the barrel cut down to go under 26"?

I just want to know every way to make anything more eviler than what the AWB banned.

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 12:01 PM
So, if I set up a trust, buy a Saiga 12 and a Nodak Spud receiver (for the trust), I can swap the Saiga parts on to the Nodak receiver, use AK type FCG and pistol grip with no stock (making an AOW), add a VFG and everything is OK if it's over 26" long.
if over 26"long with an 18" barrel, it is not an AOW, but merely a Title 1 firearm.

Can I get a SBS stamp and have the barrel cut down to go under 26"?

I just want to know every way to make anything more eviler than what the AWB banned.can't get an SBS stamp for a modern shotgun without a CADOJ dangerous weapons permit. But if that firearm never had a shoulder stock and was cut down below 26", it would be a smooth-bore pistol, an AOW, so you'd need an AOW stamp before you cut it. Don't put a rifled barrel on it, because you'd have a DD at that point.

cedricxerxes
04-03-2009, 1:15 PM
Speaking of Destructive Devices, are you planning on adding similar logic as used for the CA Handgun ID chart to this one?

.

ke6guj
04-03-2009, 1:32 PM
yah, I'm trying to work it out. DD rules for normal shotguns are pretty lax. rifled slug barrels are ok for shoulder-fired shotguns ,but not for shotgun-based AOWs. I think we only need to cover those few shotguns that are federally ruled to be DD's, because CA basically exempts all shotguns from it's DD regs IIRC.

Coffee
04-03-2009, 2:32 PM
...
There are no limitations on a pump action other than the SBS regs.

A semi-auto can have a folding or collapsable stock if it doesn't also have a PG, VFG or thumbhole stock.

It is legal for a pump-action shotgun to be fireable while the stock is folded/collapsed, IF in that configuration, it is more than 26" long. If the shotgun cannot be fired in that config, it can be below 26", similar to those CA-legal folding Kel-tecs.


Thanks! :thumbsup:

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 12:41 AM
Here's the initial drawing. Keep in mind this is just a quick drawing of the initial questions and I will need to update it with any changes that have occurred since the first post. It will at least get the ball rolling on getting the flowchart started as well as possibly help visualize the questions and answers.

CASGID-FlowChart-04-05-09-r1.00-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/97012661/39abad49/CASGID-FlowChart-04-05-09-r100-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 1:43 AM
Here's an alternate layout

CASGID-FlowChart-04-06-09-r1.01-SideA-B
(http://www.4shared.com/file/97018032/b6e59460/CASGID-FlowChart-04-06-09-r101-SideA-B.html)

TRICKSTER
04-06-2009, 2:04 AM
Now that we pretty much have the handgun legality chart fleshed out, I figured we start brainstorming on the shotgun legality chart.

I've already charted out the main logic flow, and we'll add in the PC sections and defintions to it as we go.

Anybody see anything I missed, please let me know.

For now, here is just the text logic flow. We'll get it graphed out soon.



1. Is the fiream a muzzleloader?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

2. Does the firearm shoot more than one shot with a single function of the trigger?
Yes, illegal. No, continue

3. Is the firearm designed to shoot fixed shotgun shells?
No, Not a shotgun, END. Yes, continue

4. Is the shotgun a USAS-12, Striker-12, or Streetsweeper?
No, continue. Yes, illegal unless registered with ATF as a Destructive Device. If properly registered, contine

5. Does the firearm meet the defintion of an AOW, and registered with BATF as an AOW?
Yes, skip to #7. No, continue

6. Is the shotgun have a barrel less than 18" long, or an overall length less than 26" long (measured with stock folded or collapsed)?
Yes, violates 12020(a) and ****** . No, continue

8. Is the shotgun registered as an AW?
Yes, legal, END. No, continue.

9. Is the shotgun listed as an AW?
Yes, Illegal, END. No, continue.

10. Does the shotgun have a revolving cylinder?
Yes, Illegal. No, continue.

11. is the shotgun semi-automatic?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

12. Does the semi-automatic shotgun have a detachable magazine?
Yes, illegal, END. No, continue.

13. Does the semi-automatic shotgun have a folding or telescoping stock?
No, legal, END. Yes, continue.

14. Does the semi-automatic shotgun also have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip?
No, legal. Yes, Illegal

5. Does the firearm meet the defintion of an AOW, and registered with BATF as an AOW?
Yes, skip to #7. No, continue

What / where is #7?

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 2:46 AM
5. Does the firearm meet the defintion of an AOW, and registered with BATF as an AOW?
Yes, skip to #7. No, continue

What / where is #7?
Doh, musta been drunk:D Can't count very well, I guess. 8-14 just need to be moved up one number each.

obeygiant got the numbers to the questiones correct, but 7 and 8 need to be swapped in the flow charts, and I like v1.01 better.

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 8:01 AM
Doh, musta been drunk:D Can't count very well, I guess. 8-14 just need to be moved up one number each.

obeygiant got the numbers to the questiones correct, but 7 and 8 need to be swapped in the flow charts, and I like v1.01 better.

in v.1.00 i had to flip #7 and #8 to make the chart layout properly. I left the numbers intact in their original order so that it would be apparent to everyone. I did notice that #7 was missing on the first version so I went ahead and moved everything up 1 spot. The only thing with v1.01 is that in order for me to maintain a clean layout some of the answers will go to the left, some to the right depending on their outcome. As long as everyone is ok with this, I'd prefer to stick with v1.01 as far as the layout.

edit: *I will put #7 and #8 back into their original order.

wash
04-06-2009, 8:10 AM
One last thing, is a smooth bore pistol AOW (owned by a trust) legal with a detachable magazine?

Obviously for a 12 gauge the magazine can not go through the handle. I guess I'm asking does an AOW have to comply with pistol AW regulations? The legal VFG makes me think not...

1337vending
04-06-2009, 8:47 AM
I seem to remember if the barrel is >16" it's considered a pistol, no matter the ammunition it fires. Now, if you kept the barrel over 16", and the OAL was >26" maybe it could still be an AOW, but have a detachable magazine, since it's neither a shotgun, rifle, nor pistol?

Such a device would be thoroughly awesome :chris:

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 1:26 PM
edit: *I will put #7 and #8 back into their original order.thanks. otherwise, if you ask #8 first, it looks like registered AW shotugns are illegal.


One last thing, is a smooth bore pistol AOW (owned by a trust) legal with a detachable magazine?

Obviously for a 12 gauge the magazine can not go through the handle. I guess I'm asking does an AOW have to comply with pistol AW regulations? The legal VFG makes me think not...I'm assuming that you are talking about a semi-auto AOW? If so, I beleive you still have to comply with the pistol AOW regs, since an AOW stamp only exempts you from 12020 (the SBS/SBR regs), not 12276.1 (the AW regs). And CA defines a handgun as any firearm with a barrel less than 16", so I think an AOW would fall under the handgun AW regs.

As for legal VFGs, they are legal on pistols in CA (with an AOW stamp to cover the federal side) except for semi-auto handguns that have detachable mags. Fix the mag, and it does not appear that CA has any regulations on VFGs on handguns. And for shotguns, VFGs are only regulated on semi-auto shotguns, and even then, only if the semi-auto shotgun has a folding/collapsable stock.

I seem to remember if the barrel is >16" it's considered a pistol, no matter the ammunition it fires. Now, if you kept the barrel over 16", and the OAL was >26" maybe it could still be an AOW, but have a detachable magazine, since it's neither a shotgun, rifle, nor pistol?

Such a device would be thoroughly awesome :chris:correct, if over 16" barrel, not considered a handgun, so don't have to worry about the handgun AW regs.

As for 26"+ OAL and having never had a shoulder stock, it shouldn't be considered a shotgun by CA and federal definitions. As such, I don't see why it couldn't have a detachable magazine even if it was semi-auto. I know some of the RKI's have opined that a 26+" AR-pattern firearm could have all the evil features and a detachable mag if it never had a shoulder stock, since it would be just a firearm, not a rifle, and not subject to the rifle AW regs.

gunn
04-06-2009, 1:26 PM
For this flowchart, I think AOW should be defined for some folks.
-g

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 1:42 PM
it will be. We'll most likely copy over much of the info on the back of the handgun legality flowchart over to the shotgun legality chart.

I'm more concerned about locking down the questions, and we'll add in the supporting documentation as we go, just like we are doing with the handgun chart.

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 4:22 PM
Questions #7 and #8 corrected in this chart.

CASGID-FlowChart-04-06-09-r1.02-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/97147450/5267b695/Shotgun-FlowChart-04-06-09-r102-SideA-B.html)

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 4:42 PM
For #8, do we want to just list the items, or refer them to the AW listings?12276(c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.

goober
04-06-2009, 4:56 PM
wow, i go camping @ panoche for a couple days and you guys crank out a shotgun flow chart! great job, and fast too!
looks good so far, will scrutinize a bit more and chime in if i have input...
:cheers2:

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 8:23 PM
For #8, do we want to just list the items, or refer them to the AW listings?
I went ahead and listed them and question #8 now reads like this

8. Is the shotgun a
Franchi SPAS 12, LAW 12,
Striker 12, Streetsweeper
type S/S Inc. or a SS/12?

The only issue I see with it is that we already asked about the Striker 12 and Streetsweeper earlier in question #4


4. Is the shotgun a USAS-12,
Striker-12, or Streetsweeper?

I realize that we're trying to address destructive devices and assault weapons in questions #4 & #8 respectively but maybe we could combine the two into question #4

wash
04-06-2009, 8:59 PM
I'm assuming that you are talking about a semi-auto AOW? If so, I beleive you still have to comply with the pistol AOW regs, since an AOW stamp only exempts you from 12020 (the SBS/SBR regs), not 12276.1 (the AW regs). And CA defines a handgun as any firearm with a barrel less than 16", so I think an AOW would fall under the handgun AW regs.

As for legal VFGs, they are legal on pistols in CA (with an AOW stamp to cover the federal side) except for semi-auto handguns that have detachable mags. Fix the mag, and it does not appear that CA has any regulations on VFGs on handguns. And for shotguns, VFGs are only regulated on semi-auto shotguns, and even then, only if the semi-auto shotgun has a folding/collapsable stock.

correct, if over 16" barrel, not considered a handgun, so don't have to worry about the handgun AW regs.

As for 26"+ OAL and having never had a shoulder stock, it shouldn't be considered a shotgun by CA and federal definitions. As such, I don't see why it couldn't have a detachable magazine even if it was semi-auto. I know some of the RKI's have opined that a 26+" AR-pattern firearm could have all the evil features and a detachable mag if it never had a shoulder stock, since it would be just a firearm, not a rifle, and not subject to the rifle AW regs.

So, If it's 26"+, never had a stock and the barrel is lets say 17" smooth bore, it's not a shot gun, it's not a rifle, it's not a pistol, it's not an AOW, it's not an SBS and it can be semi-auto with detachable magazine, VFG and pistol grip?

So you could just buy the receiver as a long gun and build it like that with no paperwork and no trust?

Would there be any barrel length permancence requirement?

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 9:07 PM
I went ahead and listed them and question #8 now reads like this
yah, I think listing it in the question is best since there are only three. Maybe include the PC section listing the back.

The only issue I see with it is that we already asked about the Striker 12 and Streetsweeper earlier in question #4


I realize that we're trying to address destructive devices and assault weapons in questions #4 & #8 respectively but maybe we could combine the two into question #4I think it is easier to have it as two questions since you have DD form 4s and AW registrations that you'd have to weed through in the question.

Examples, a guy could have streetsweeper that he registered as an AW, but he did not know about the DD ruling and did not file the federal form 4.

Another guy did the DD registration but didn't do the AW registration.

And the third guy did both, the DD and the AW.

All three variations need to be covered. The way the questions are now, all three scenarios are covered. Plus the items listed in #4 are slightly different from #8.

wash
04-06-2009, 9:08 PM
Strike that, it would be an AOW, so you would need a trust.

But I still wonder about the barrel length permanence?

And if you had a trust, could you get the AOW stamp without CA knowing about it or will you wind up on their radar?

obeygiant
04-06-2009, 9:12 PM
yah, I think listing it in the question is best since there are only three. Maybe include the PC section listing the back.

I think it is easier to have it as two questions since you have DD form 4s and AW registrations that you'd have to weed through in the question.

Examples, a guy could have streetsweeper that he registered as an AW, but he did not know about the DD ruling and did not file the federal form 4.

Another guy did the DD registration but didn't do the AW registration.

And the third guy did both, the DD and the AW.

All three variations need to be covered. The way the questions are now, all three scenarios are covered. Plus the items listed in #4 are slightly different from #8.

Good point. I will leave it as is then and add the PC section to the back.

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 9:19 PM
So, If it's 26"+, never had a stock and the barrel is lets say 17" smooth bore, it's not a shot gun, it's not a rifle, it's not a pistol, it's not an AOW, it's not an SBS and it can be semi-auto with detachable magazine, VFG and pistol grip?

So you could just buy the receiver as a long gun and build it like that with no paperwork and no trust?

Would there be any barrel length permancence requirement?Nope, it would be an CA-defined SBS since the barrel is less than 18". Federally, I think you might have been ok

12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

that same firearm with a one inch longer barrel should be legal, AFAIK. But, I'd wait for a confirmation from the RKIs on that.

ke6guj
04-06-2009, 9:28 PM
Strike that, it would be an AOW, so you would need a trust.

But I still wonder about the barrel length permanence?

And if you had a trust, could you get the AOW stamp without CA knowing about it or will you wind up on their radar?I'm actually not sure if it would be an AOW. The reason it would be an AOW is if it was considered a smooth-bore handgun or a VFG'ed handgun. But I think federally it is only considered a handgun if it is less than 26" long. There is a lot of grey in this area of the law. For instance, federally, it is legal to have a short-barreled 1919a4, less than 16". It is not an SBR. As long as you don't go below 26" OAL, it is just a Title I firearm. IIRC, you can get down to an 8" barrel before you go below 26", at that point it becomes an AOW since it doesn't really meet the defintion of a handgun, too awkward to shot one-handed. CA-wise, I think it won't work because we trigger handgun AW status as soon as the barrel goes below 16" and the belt-feed is considered a detachable magazine AFAIK.

obeygiant
04-07-2009, 12:02 AM
Added some of the items from the handgun chart and a second page to start the process of getting all of the legal references down. Here's the latest revision:

CASGID-FlowChart-04-06-09-r1.04-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/97197337/67865684/CASGID-FlowChart-04-06-09-r104-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
04-08-2009, 1:04 AM
Started adding the violations, let me know if there are any citations that are missing of if any of the ones I added are incorrect.

CASGID-FlowChart-04-07-09-r1.05-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/97381869/a4dfb740/CASGID-FlowChart-04-07-09-r105-SideA-B.html)

ke6guj
05-08-2009, 10:38 PM
bump.

Guys, take a look at the chart please. Let us know if you have any suggestions or see any errors.

vandal
05-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Well SBS is missing for one big thing.

bump.

Guys, take a look at the chart please. Let us know if you have any suggestions or see any errors.

ke6guj
05-08-2009, 11:14 PM
Well SBS is missing for one big thing.
yah, I just had a placeholder for the YES answer to #6. I think it'll work to pull over the SBS answer from the handgun chart.

obeygiant
05-09-2009, 12:09 AM
Well SBS is missing for one big thing.

Added SBS as well as a couple of other items. Here you go:

CASGID-FlowChart-05-08-09-r107-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104271349/6f7349c7/CASGID-FlowChart-05-08-09-r107-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
05-09-2009, 12:20 AM
A few minor cosmetic fixes

CASGID-FlowChart-05-08-09-r1.08-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104272726/bc2af4e2/CASGID-FlowChart-05-08-09-r108-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
05-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Changed the wording of #4's yellow box, formatted "PC§ 12020(b)(7)(8) Curio & relic, Any Other Weapon" to fit a little better on the page.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-09-09-r1.09-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104368172/5b3ca27d/CASGID-FlowChart-05-09-09-r109-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
05-10-2009, 3:06 PM
Consolidated the PC 12020 section and CFR Title27 sections

CASGID-FlowChart-05-10-09-r1.13-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104570469/fdb36a1d/_2__CASGID-FlowChart-05-10-09-r113-SideA-B.html)

DarkHorse
05-10-2009, 6:16 PM
Q #2 - It's a violation "if not possessed per...," but there is no path for legal possession. Should there be? (I have no clue about MG's in CA.)

Q #4 - It seems like the "Yes" path should be reversed - have the yellow circle w/question first, then the rectangle detailing why it's illegal. Then you wouldn't need "if not properly possessed" in the rectangle, nor "If so, continue" in the circle.

Q #6 - Should read "Does the shotgun..." not "Is the shotgun..." Same recommendation as above for order of question vs. violated code.

Q #7 - Arrow along Yes path is funny-looking.

Q #8 - You ask about a Streetsweeper and Striker 12 twice. I understand they refer to dif't codes (Fed vs. CA), but is it necessary?

Q #10 - Capitalization

ke6guj
05-10-2009, 7:51 PM
Q #2 - It's a violation "if not possessed per...," but there is no path for legal possession. Should there be? (I have no clue about MG's in CA.)It probably should have a Yellow Yes/no box like #4 and #6, but the number of civilian MGs legally owned in CA is practically nil so I didn't want to waste too much time on it.

Q #4 - It seems like the "Yes" path should be reversed - have the yellow circle w/question first, then the rectangle detailing why it's illegal. Then you wouldn't need "if not properly possessed" in the rectangle, nor "If so, continue" in the circle.

Q #6 - Should read "Does the shotgun..." not "Is the shotgun..." Same recommendation as above for order of question vs. violated code.Either way works, but I tried to explain that how there could be a legal possesion in the orange rectangle, and then asked if it was legally possessed in the yellow box.

Q #8 - You ask about a Streetsweeper and Striker 12 twice. I understand they refer to dif't codes (Fed vs. CA), but is it necessary?yah, I think it is. Note that the list in #4 is different than the list in #8. And since the federal DD registration is totally separate from the CA AW registration, hypothetically a person could have a streetsweeper in one of four different situations in regards to its registration.

Not registered as a DD or an AW
Registered as a DD, but not an AW
Registered as an AW, but not a DD
Registered as a AW and a DD.

Only the last situation is legal.

obeygiant
05-11-2009, 1:02 AM
Here's the revised edition.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r1.14-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104651248/f8e70210/CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r114-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
05-11-2009, 10:19 PM
Cleaned up a few items.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r1.18-SideA-B (http://www.4shared.com/file/104852902/58b40f75/CASGID-FlowChart-05-11-09-r119-SideA-B.html)

obeygiant
05-18-2009, 3:55 PM
Reworked the drawing so that it would be easier to read and print.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r1.21-SideA-B-Final (http://www.4shared.com/file/106267858/82aec0b4/CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r121-SideA-B-Final.html)

lorax3
05-18-2009, 4:14 PM
Reworked the drawing so that it would be easier to read and print.



Just downloaded the latest pdf, I seem to see an issue. Either that or I am missing something.


You start of the left, after following the bottom most option "less than 18 inches" which one would answer no to, you proceed to the AW question.

In my case I have not gotten to the "prohibited features" in 12276 yet, although my shotgun isnt a reg. AW.

Although it could still be illegal if it had a pistol grip and a collapsible stock, but I never get to that point.

It would seem that the downward direction arrow from the AW question should be, "no" and yes would exempt it with 12280.


http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/lorax3/MISC/Picture5.png

ke6guj
05-18-2009, 4:23 PM
yup, looks like you are correct, The Yes option from #7 should go to the left to the legal solution, and the NO option should continue to #8.

obeygiant
05-18-2009, 4:38 PM
yup, looks like you are correct, The Yes option from #7 should go to the left to the legal solution, and the NO option should continue to #8.

Good catch Lorax3. When resizing the chart to fit on standard paper sizes The yes/no's weren't anchored to the lines and it looks like I put that one back in the wrong spot. I'll fix it and reup it here shortly.

obeygiant
05-18-2009, 6:08 PM
Here's the revised version. I also added the definition of a shotgun per ke6guj.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r1.22-SideA-B-Final (http://www.4shared.com/file/106287673/92e4e8d5/CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r122-SideA-B-Final.html)

lorax3
05-18-2009, 6:32 PM
Here's the revised version.

Only thing I would add would be a "no" on question 13. The yes is there, but the "no" leading to the left is missing. Not a major issue.

-lorax

obeygiant
05-18-2009, 8:29 PM
Only thing I would add would be a "no" on question 13. The yes is there, but the "no" leading to the left is missing. Not a major issue.

-lorax
Fixed. I also added 26 U.S.C. 5861 to the second page.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r1.23-SideA-B-Final (http://www.4shared.com/file/106306913/8c72f76f/CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r123-SideA-B-Final.html)

obeygiant
05-18-2009, 10:26 PM
Pending any input from the legal gurus this looks like it is the final edition of the shotgun chart.

CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r1.24-SideA-B-Final (http://www.4shared.com/file/106320500/5ad1624c/CASGID-FlowChart-05-18-09-r124-SideA-B-Final.html)

obeygiant
08-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Pending some additional data regarding a recent ruling on the zip gun law here is the chart in it's latest form.

CASGID-FlowChart-08-09-09-r125-SideA-B-Final. (http://www.4shared.com/file/124154609/847b98a9/CASGID-FlowChart-08-09-09-r125-SideA-B-Final.html)

obeygiant
08-15-2009, 10:51 AM
Thank you Kestryll for hosting them on Calguns. See the top of the page for pdf versions.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5258/flowcharts.jpg

Lancear15
10-27-2011, 4:50 PM
You might also want to add tube length there, since it is fully possible to have a tube that takes 10+ rounds and thus making it an AW.

I'm confused why this didn't make it into the flow chart?

10 in the tube +1 in the chamber is legal, any more then that = AW... correct?

ke6guj
10-27-2011, 5:19 PM
I'm confused why this didn't make it into the flow chart?

10 in the tube +1 in the chamber is legal, any more then that = AW... correct?it didn't make it into the chart because there is nothing illegal about possessing a shotgun that has an 11+ round mag tube. There is no capacity number for shotgun magazines/tubes that makes them an AW.

Now, there are magazine laws that deal with magazine size when you sell, transfer, make, etc but exceding them on a shotgun does not make the shotgun itself illegal. yes, you may have violated the large-cap magazine ban, but the shotgun as it sits there is not an illegal AW. that is how all the flowcharts work, is the firearm legal as it sits there. They don't deal with 922(r), roster issues, or how the firearm was transfered to you, they deal with "is the firearm legal at that moment?" and having a shotgun with an 11+ round mag tube is not illegal.

Lancear15
10-27-2011, 8:32 PM
I understand that 11+ detatchable mags and not illegal, but I thought a fixed may could never be over 10 rounds. Does that only apply to rifles? I'm confused

goober
10-27-2011, 9:06 PM
I understand that 11+ detatchable mags and not illegal, but I thought a fixed may could never be over 10 rounds. Does that only apply to rifles?

bingo
I'm confused

of course you are. any reasonable person would be. :(

ke6guj
10-27-2011, 11:17 PM
I understand that 11+ detatchable mags and not illegal, but I thought a fixed may could never be over 10 rounds.nope, there is no maximum allowable capacity for a fixed mag on a shotgun. I could have a CA-legal Saiga-12 and use a 20-round mag in it without it being an illegal AW.


Does that only apply to rifles? I'm confusedit applies to certain rifles and pistols, not shotguns.