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View Full Version : "Operation Fortress" Who's up for it?


MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 3:06 PM
I came up with a (VERY)ruff Idea for a civialin OP a while ago. How bout we make a real stand and show the people how its done?

I want to get a few people together and rent out an entire apartment complex in the worst neigboorhood in Oakland we can find. We offer to help clean it up, upgrade it, paint it, etc to help pay rent and to make living conditions up to standard.

Now, what we do is have the place be a flaming beacon of 2A. I'm talking UOC, OLL's, Etc, Etc.. We all take up on our training and develop special tactics/plans if any number of problems arise. (More Classified Tactics would involve less than lethal weapons so nobody can provoke a shooting easily)

I'm from Oakland that's all I'm willing to say but there could be a liaison with the neighborhood though me, and Intel on the surrounding area. If I could find enough people and a vacant enough complex I'd love to do this. I don't know how many of you work close enough or can make that type of change in life to do this but it is just a thought.

I would eventually like to occupy an entire city block (this is kind of a mini free state thing) but that is really pushing it. But for the apartment building I say put up a small fence, no trespassing signs, install inexpensive cameras, fly the American flag on the roof, couple NRA/Pro gun signs up to make it CLEAR that the building and its occupants aren't to be F*$%^ with.

I know its a long shot idea but damn it would sooooo work, the publicity would be great.

"Operation Fortress"

LET THE MASSIVE FLAMING BEGIN!:chris:

EDIT: Apt Examples:

This Is EXACTLY what i'm talking about right here!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/apa/1103120300.html
$750 / 1br - Apartment ($1000.00 Moves You In) (oakland east) (map)
http://images.craigslist.org/3n03pd3ocZZZZZZZZZ9415d03690a087c1378.jpg

If you painted this place up, gave it a nice almond/off white type color to bring it into the 21st century and so new garage doors, it would make a world of difference. Get some scrap granite for countertops, etc ,etc. I'm sure we could get some help and materials from the cast firearms community. somebody may be able to donate a little paint, service, other materials (carpet etc). If i could find some people that aren't the color of the middle light on traffic lights i'd love to do it. I know it would be a little hard finding a vacant ENOUGH place, but they are out there.


Clarification EDIT:

I want to clear this up....

I am not saying that we would be honorary Volunteer Deputy Fire Marshal Officer Picklestiens. I'm not saying we set up shop and then call the police on any and everything from jay walking to kids riding bicycles without helmets.

This Op would be to show an example of what the average citizen can do, and what they can do with the help of their neighbors.

While whatever hell breaks loose around the area, people are going to start wonder why nothing happens to the apartment complex? Why don't their apts get broken into? Why don't their cars get stolen? Why aren't they scared?

That's what its all about. My vision would have it setup in a DEFENSIVE manor (hence "Operation FORTRESS"). We would not be trying to be super heros taking down drugs spots. But as I said before, if a stand needed to be made against whoever, I'd be down. if they don't like that we moved in on the block, then we can handle it however they want to bring it.

The goal here is to be an example and to slowly get to know the natives and try to educate them about 2A gun control, what's going on in the area, etc etc. We might be able to through bar b q's or whatever and really get in good with the people in the area.

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about, all the tactics and show of force is strictly for defense. We mind are business and fortify the complex that's it.

capo
04-02-2009, 3:16 PM
Yeah no.

shooting4life
04-02-2009, 3:28 PM
I have to check on my insurance coverage. I am sure they have in clause in their someplace that says benefactor will not be paid if living in east oakland.

b.faust
04-02-2009, 3:36 PM
I can see the newspaper quotes now:

"See I thought he said 'TEAM FORTRESS' and signed on....boy did I make a mistake..."

http://www.gameogre.com/reviewdirectory/upload/Team%20Fortress%202.jpg

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 3:37 PM
heere we go, my screen is turning bright yellow right now.

Sarkoon
04-02-2009, 3:45 PM
MrSigmaDOT40, I really do think you have a great idea going here, so don't let the skeptics deter you!

I've had similar thoughts - What makes a bad neighborhood actually a bad neighborhood? It certainly isn't the geographic location (Hunters Point would be a beautiful place if you built some nice houses up on the hill overlooking the water) - it's the people living there.

So here's a solution to everyone who thinks that housing prices in the bay area are too expensive: Organize a group of a hundred or more upstanding citizens to buy up cheap property in a currently "bad" neighborhood. With the influx of intelligent peaceful people, the neighborhood will fairly quickly improve, crime will decrease, and housing values will rise. All it takes is some organization like this!

sfpcservice
04-02-2009, 3:49 PM
You're gonna need a helicopter too. When the natives go ape sh$*, you can escape vertically.

CCWFacts
04-02-2009, 3:50 PM
It sure would improve the neighborhood!

But, people would need CCWs. UOC is not a substitute and the city would stop it one way or another.

The other problem is, if it's any kind of organized effort, I guess there would be liability risks. Eventually someone would want to see if the "fortress" is for real or not, and would find out by getting himself shot, and then there would be lots of trouble. I can easily imagine a prosecutor there digging for charges like vigilantism, forming an armed group or I don't know what other obscure old charges they can find.

I know Mayor Newsome put out a challenge to the NRA to come and live in public housing in SF, and many people here (including me) accepted it, on condition that we get CCWs, but of course Mr. Newsome was full of hot air.

If such a thing were to happen, it would have a dramatic impact on property values on the block; the owners might hate the idea but love the increase in their value.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 3:51 PM
MrSigmaDOT40, I really do think you have a great idea going here, so don't let the skeptics deter you!

I've had similar thoughts - What makes a bad neighborhood actually a bad neighborhood? It certainly isn't the geographic location (Hunters Point would be a beautiful place if you built some nice houses up on the hill overlooking the water) - it's the people living there.

So here's a solution to everyone who thinks that housing prices in the bay area are too expensive: Organize a group of a hundred or more upstanding citizens to buy up cheap property in a currently "bad" neighborhood. With the influx of intelligent peaceful people, the neighborhood will fairly quickly improve, crime will decrease, and housing values will rise. All it takes is some organization like this!


Thanks! But I do want to be clear that I don't want to spark gentrification through an entire neighborhood and push out natives. But to gentrificate(if that's a word) a small block or apartment complex is fine. i want to show the people HOW ITS DONE! And the Nation How its done, and the more guns equl LESS CRIME!

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 3:54 PM
It sure would improve the neighborhood!

But, people would need CCWs. UOC is not a substitute and the city would stop it one way or another.

The other problem is, if it's any kind of organized effort, I guess there would be liability risks. Eventually someone would want to see if the "fortress" is for real or not, and would find out by getting himself shot, and then there would be lots of trouble. I can easily imagine a prosecutor there digging for charges like vigilantism, forming an armed group or I don't know what other obscure old charges they can find.

I know Mayor Newsome put out a challenge to the NRA to come and live in public housing in SF, and many people here (including me) accepted it, on condition that we get CCWs, but of course Mr. Newsome was full of hot air.

If such a thing were to happen, it would have a dramatic impact on property values on the block; the owners might hate the idea but love the increase in their value.

This is why i said there will be CLASSIFIED less than lethal weapons and tactics to bring down someboddy wanting to test the waters. Only in the most extreme situation do we shoot back. We keep close contact with beat cops and some sort of 2 way communication between all the units. it Doesn't have to be a LEGAL ENTITY. its just a bunch of people exercising their Rights period.

CCWFacts
04-02-2009, 3:57 PM
MrSigmaDOT40, I really do think you have a great idea going here, so don't let the skeptics deter you!

I agree. In fact it's now cheap enough that one person could even buy an apt. complex pretty easily in Hunter's Point or Oakland.

I've had similar thoughts - What makes a bad neighborhood actually a bad neighborhood? It certainly isn't the geographic location (Hunters Point would be a beautiful place if you built some nice houses up on the hill overlooking the water) - it's the people living there.

Absolutely. Hunter's Point would be awesome if the people who are currently living there would move somewhere else. It's known that when gays move into a neighborhood, ok, it does get a little more noisy at night but it certainly cleans up and property values go up too. This happened in areas of SF and other places. So there are examples of this.

You're gonna need a helicopter too. When the natives go ape sh$*, you can escape vertically.

Ha ha, no, the thugs of Oakland are cowards. They are only intimidating when they face no resistance. A few loads of buckshot and they will run home and change their underwear.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 3:58 PM
It sure would improve the neighborhood!

But, people would need CCWs. UOC is not a substitute and the city would stop it one way or another.

The other problem is, if it's any kind of organized effort, I guess there would be liability risks. Eventually someone would want to see if the "fortress" is for real or not, and would find out by getting himself shot, and then there would be lots of trouble. I can easily imagine a prosecutor there digging for charges like vigilantism, forming an armed group or I don't know what other obscure old charges they can find.

I know Mayor Newsome put out a challenge to the NRA to come and live in public housing in SF, and many people here (including me) accepted it, on condition that we get CCWs, but of course Mr. Newsome was full of hot air.

If such a thing were to happen, it would have a dramatic impact on property values on the block; the owners might hate the idea but love the increase in their value.


Well if we wait a while (would take a while to seup anyway) we just might have that. but until then we can UOC. It is even legal to UOC in a car as long as your not in a school zone. It is also legal to carry in a small lockbox unloaded.

CCWFacts
04-02-2009, 4:01 PM
It doesn't even take very many people to do it. Patrick McCullough did that all by himself and his block had a noticeable change from it. If there were even three or four apartments in one area that were armed and not willing to cooperate with the thugs and gangs, that block would have a remarkable change.

As for non-lethal weapons and so on, I don't think they fit in very well. I wouldn't want to rely on one and they come with a host of legal risks themselves.

And UOC is still a big problem. The city can and will find ways to make it nearly impossible. It's a weak defense option anyway. And the legislature could do something about it if they decide to.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 4:01 PM
I agree. In fact it's now cheap enough that one person could even buy an apt. complex pretty easily in Hunter's Point or Oakland.



Absolutely. Hunter's Point would be awesome if the people who are currently living there would move somewhere else. It's known that when gays move into a neighborhood, ok, it does get a little more noisy at night but it certainly cleans up and property values go up too. This happened in areas of SF and other places. So there are examples of this.



Ha ha, no, the thugs of Oakland are cowards. They are only intimidating when they face no resistance. A few loads of buckshot and they will run home and change their underwear.

Buying would be nice bt i know i don't have anywhere near enough money to do that, but if you know somebody who does feel free lol. i'll be the first to rent!

Yea most "thugs" will run at any armed civilian let alon trained ones. But there are nut cases that will shoot it out with you. they just won't come shoot it out for no reason though, they will avoid the area.

I'm speaking from expereince.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 4:07 PM
It doesn't even take very many people to do it. Patrick McCullough did that all by himself and his block had a noticeable change from it. If there were even three or four apartments in one area that were armed and not willing to cooperate with the thugs and gangs, that block would have a remarkable change.

As for non-lethal weapons and so on, I don't think they fit in very well. I wouldn't want to rely on one and they come with a host of legal risks themselves.

And UOC is still a big problem. The city can and will find ways to make it nearly impossible. It's a weak defense option anyway. And the legislature could do something about it if they decide to.

True but its better then the legal troubles from a shooting. If your non leathal wepaons are such that you can use the same CQ tactics with them, they can be very effective. You forget these guys are not trained. I think it would look very good in court and the media if we were all armed but nobody got shot.

I want to train and have tactics so that you would think swat popped up out of nowhere when sombody poses a threat inside the complex.

Tazers, Bright Strobe light flashlights, pepper spray, etc.

As for the UOC, yes that is true, i wish i had a plan about that but i don't. All i can say is i'm not planning to walk the area UOC'ing. just inside the property and if you want in your car (or carry in a lockbox). so it may not even be an issue.

cheese
04-02-2009, 4:12 PM
It seems like a death wish to me. Criminals dont have to play fair. When you go to your car at 5 am that could be it. Or how about when they find out where you kids got to school or where your wife works. Drive by's are pretty intimidationg as well....

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 4:19 PM
It seems like a death wish to me. Criminals dont have to play fair. When you go to your car at 5 am that could be it. Or how about when they find out where you kids got to school or where your wife works. Drive by's are pretty intimidationg as well....

Uhm its called "Operation Fortress". Going to your car at 5am should not be a problem (on site parking). I didn't want to put all tactic ideas out yet but one of them would be that we contact each other (could be certain people on certain days) that will watch over you (armed) from their apt or a near by balcony when you come and go.

Like I said before we can have 2 way radio coms and.or just phones. I don't want to give my full demographic up but I will say it again I AM FROM OAKLAND and not the hills. I have a lot of insight into what goes on out on the street trust me. A lot of the common fears are nonsense, you can stop any 211/245 attempt with the right tactics and coms in a fenced off complex.

If kids/wife is a problem then this Op is only for single men then I guess.

There is so much stuff you can do to lock it down like having a central alarm system that will tell everybody inside what unit the alarm was set off from, etc ,etc. everybody in this would basically be a part of a civil high security team.

cheese
04-02-2009, 4:28 PM
Im not doubting where your from or what you know it just doesnt seem like a good idea.
I have lived in bad parts of east oakland and like i said i think what your talking about is a death wish. People make millions of $$$ out of spots just like you are describing selling dope. If you think they will give it up to a few guys with unloaded guns on their hips you are mistaken.

Whiskey_Sauer
04-02-2009, 4:28 PM
Will there be a sign up sheet for the best shifts to man the .50 cal on the roof?

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 4:37 PM
Will there be a sign up sheet for the best shifts to man the .50 cal on the roof?

LOL

Sarkoon
04-02-2009, 4:37 PM
Will there be a sign up sheet for the best shifts to man the .50 cal on the roof?

Sweet, I'll never have to worry about someone vandalizing my car again. :D

MrSigmaDOT40
04-02-2009, 4:39 PM
Im not doubting where your from or what you know it just doesnt seem like a good idea.
I have lived in bad parts of east oakland and like i said i think what your talking about is a death wish. People make millions of $$$ out of spots just like you are describing selling dope. If you think they will give it up to a few guys with unloaded guns on their hips you are mistaken.

Your right they are making major bread at SOME of those spots. I never said move right in the heart of a SPOT. But even if we did, if you wanted it stop u have to be willing to fight it out. I'm not scared to take on the task if i have to but where is my back up???

And remeber i did say uoc AND OLL. If they don't want to get sniped out of this world they would want to stand down.

Joe
04-02-2009, 4:42 PM
I think you'd be painted as some extremist, psychotic cult leader and it would end like Wako.

CHS
04-02-2009, 4:44 PM
If i could find some people that aren't the color of the middle light on traffic lights i'd love to do it.

Uhhhhhhhh.... No asians?

Dark Paladin
04-02-2009, 4:56 PM
Uhhhhhhhh.... No asians?

heh. . . that's kind of how I read that one too. :confused:

cheese
04-02-2009, 5:05 PM
heh. . . that's kind of how I read that one too. :confused:

yelluh bellies:p

M. Sage
04-02-2009, 5:12 PM
Hmm, if you'd done this a year ago, I'd have been game.

You're gonna need a helicopter too. When the natives go ape sh$*, you can escape vertically.

Three words: Wall. Of. Lead.

At that point, we wouldn't be locked in there with them, they'd be locked in there with us! :43:

jnojr
04-02-2009, 5:51 PM
Sweet, I'll never have to worry about someone vandalizing my car again. :D

Just huge bullet holes in it from the car burglars being shot at :p

.454
04-02-2009, 5:57 PM
"Out of control vigilante gang armed with assault weapons takes over Oakland neighborhood; cops, authorities worried over potential massacres"

(headline from S.F. Chronicle)

Good luck.

Swiss
04-02-2009, 9:26 PM
I'm married. There's no way I'd put my wife (or girlfriend, if that was the case) in a situation like that. If I was single and ugly you could sign me up :)

fourXfour
04-02-2009, 9:44 PM
Very interesting idea. It reminds me of what Supreme Court Justice Scalia stated during the Heller decision. He stated gun control laws were initially based on race. It almost holds true today. Our most ethnic urban cities have the strictest gun laws. Conversely they tend to have the highest crime rates This project could combat one of the last relics of racism.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-03-2009, 4:10 AM
I think you'd be painted as some extremist, psychotic cult leader and it would end like Wako.

Uhhhhhhhh.... No asians?

heh. . . that's kind of how I read that one too. :confused:

As somebody else also mentioned i ment being yellow as in scared

"Out of control vigilante gang armed with assault weapons takes over Oakland neighborhood; cops, authorities worried over potential massacres"

(headline from S.F. Chronicle)

Good luck.

Very interesting idea. It reminds me of what Supreme Court Justice Scalia stated during the Heller decision. He stated gun control laws were initially based on race. It almost holds true today. Our most ethnic urban cities have the strictest gun laws. Conversely they tend to have the highest crime rates This project could combat one of the last relics of racism.

I want to clear this up....

I am not saying that we would be honorary Volunteer Deputy Fire Marshal Officer Picklestiens. I'm not saying we set up shop and then call the police any everything from jay walking to kids riding bicycles without helmets.

This Op would be to show an example of what the average citizen can do, and what they can do with the help of their neighbors.

While whatever hell breaks loose around the area people are going to start wonder why nothing happens to the apartment complex? Why don't their apts get broken into? why don't their cars get stolen? why aren't they scared?

That's what its all about. My vision would have it setup in a DEFENSIVE manor (hence "Operation FORTRESS"). We would not be trying to be super heroes, taking down drugs spots. but as I said before if a stand needed to be made against whoever, I'd be down. if they don't like that we moved in on the block, then we can handle it however they want to bring it.

The goal here is to be an example and to slowly get to know the natives and try to educate them about 2A gun control, what's going on in the area, etc etc. We might be able to through bar b q's or whatever and really get in good with the people in the area.

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about, all the tactics and show of force is strictly for defense. We mind are business and fortify the complex that's it.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-03-2009, 4:10 AM
Very interesting idea. It reminds me of what Supreme Court Justice Scalia stated during the Heller decision. He stated gun control laws were initially based on race. It almost holds true today. Our most ethnic urban cities have the strictest gun laws. Conversely they tend to have the highest crime rates This project could combat one of the last relics of racism.

Yea thats pretty much the truth.

Bugei
04-03-2009, 7:46 AM
Oakland isn't going to cleaned up without bulldozers. You want to clean the place up? Assist the decent folk of Oakland to move somewhere else. Fifty years of liberal politics have done just what you'd expect and only taxes are propping up any semblance of an actual city. Remove the tax base. Let the gangs have it. If all the business moves out and all the taxpayers do the same, the place will be a ghost town.

Then buy it up cheap.

I admit that I have no idea how to stop the politicians from screwing up whatever you build at that point.

But rehabilitating Oakland into a good and decent place to live isn't a task for humans.

paintballergb
04-03-2009, 7:54 AM
I would be down if I lived up there.

ptdog
04-03-2009, 7:59 AM
As somebody else also mentioned i ment being yellow as in scared





I want to clear this up....

I am not saying that we would be honorary Volunteer Deputy Fire Marshal Officer Picklestiens. I'm not saying we set up shop and then call the police any everything from jay walking to kids riding bicycles without helmets.

This Op would be to show an example of what the average citizen can do, and what they can do with the help of their neighbors.

While whatever hell breaks loose around the area people are going to start wonder why nothing happens to the apartment complex? Why don't their apts get broken into? why don't their cars get stolen? why aren't they scared?

That's what its all about. My vision would have it setup in a DEFENSIVE manor (hence "Operation FORTRESS"). We would not be trying to be super heroes, taking down drugs spots. but as I said before if a stand needed to be made against whoever, I'd be down. if they don't like that we moved in on the block, then we can handle it however they want to bring it.

The goal here is to be an example and to slowly get to know the natives and try to educate them about 2A gun control, what's going on in the area, etc etc. We might be able to through bar b q's or whatever and really get in good with the people in the area.

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about, all the tactics and show of force is strictly for defense. We mind are business and fortify the complex that's it.

I will get flamed for this, but this some of the statements gets me to believe that we have gun nuts in here. By nuts, I mean the negative one. The natives, who are referring to? Is there special meaning for this? CQB, special tactics, back to the video games please!

Mazilla
04-03-2009, 8:04 AM
Hey, didnt they have something like this setup in Waco Texas a while back? :rockon: ;)

westcoastr
04-03-2009, 8:23 AM
dude, i think we feel your frustration..but why not just enlist and go to Iraq? you get to do the same thing, and get paid, and get to carry OPEN and LOADED!

Alternatively, we can just hope that this North Korean missle on the pad right now will hit oakland. even though I live downwind, i think the tradeoff is still a positive for me.

CHS
04-03-2009, 9:01 AM
What is it that the NRA always says?

"Society is safer when criminals don't know who's armed."

This type of operation is basically painting a big giant "FIREARMS LOCATED HERE" sign in the middle of Oakland.

Mulay El Raisuli
04-03-2009, 9:35 AM
Alternatively, we can just hope that this North Korean missle on the pad right now will hit oakland. even though I live downwind, i think the tradeoff is still a positive for me.


Oakland is downwind from 'Frisco (most likely target), isn't it? A kind of 2-for-1 deal then.

Anyway, while I like the whole idea of the Fortress, I don't see it being practical until LOC and/or shall issue is the law of the land.

The Raisuli

westcoastr
04-03-2009, 10:31 AM
Oakland is downwind from 'Frisco (most likely target), isn't it? A kind of 2-for-1 deal then.


this is wishfull thinking, oakland needs a direct hit, a glancing blow will only enrage them

Flopper
04-03-2009, 11:43 AM
Oakland is downwind from 'Frisco (most likely target), isn't it? A kind of 2-for-1 deal then.

Anyway, while I like the whole idea of the Fortress, I don't see it being practical until LOC and/or shall issue is the law of the land.

The Raisuli
correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure SF is not a target for a first strike. the area around the "blue cube" in mountain view, next to moffet field, is, since it's a comm nexus.

i'd bet money that sf isn't a target also since our enemies know that sf is part of the fifth column.

Swiss
04-03-2009, 12:24 PM
I will get flamed for this, but this some of the statements gets me to believe that we have gun nuts in here. By nuts, I mean the negative one. The natives, who are referring to? Is there special meaning for this? CQB, special tactics, back to the video games please!

:iagree:

+1, and that includes the subsequent discussion on nuking an American city. Time to grow up.

MrSigmaDOT40
04-03-2009, 1:24 PM
I will get flamed for this, but this some of the statements gets me to believe that we have gun nuts in here. By nuts, I mean the negative one. The natives, who are referring to? Is there special meaning for this? CQB, special tactics, back to the video games please!

Hey, didnt they have something like this setup in Waco Texas a while back? :rockon: ;)

dude, i think we feel your frustration..but why not just enlist and go to Iraq? you get to do the same thing, and get paid, and get to carry OPEN and LOADED!

Alternatively, we can just hope that this North Korean missle on the pad right now will hit oakland. even though I live downwind, i think the tradeoff is still a positive for me.

What is it that the NRA always says?

"Society is safer when criminals don't know who's armed."

This type of operation is basically painting a big giant "FIREARMS LOCATED HERE" sign in the middle of Oakland.

Oakland is downwind from 'Frisco (most likely target), isn't it? A kind of 2-for-1 deal then.

Anyway, while I like the whole idea of the Fortress, I don't see it being practical until LOC and/or shall issue is the law of the land.

The Raisuli



What is it that the NRA always says?

"Society is safer when criminals don't know who's armed."

This type of operation is basically painting a big giant "FIREARMS LOCATED HERE" sign in the middle of Oakland.

Oakland is downwind from 'Frisco (most likely target), isn't it? A kind of 2-for-1 deal then.

Anyway, while I like the whole idea of the Fortress, I don't see it being practical until LOC and/or shall issue is the law of the land.

The Raisuli

this is wishfull thinking, oakland needs a direct hit, a glancing blow will only enrage them

correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure SF is not a target for a first strike. the area around the "blue cube" in mountain view, next to moffet field, is, since it's a comm nexus.

i'd bet money that sf isn't a target also since our enemies know that sf is part of the fifth column.

:iagree:

+1, and that includes the subsequent discussion on nuking an American city. Time to grow up.


How CLEAR did I make it over and over that those tactics and show of force is for DEFENSE against crack heads and other idiots that rob houses, steal cars, etc, etc ,etc. Point being you come in with bad intentions, you leave in cuffs or the meat wagon. You are some real wise guys with the jokes. I know my city, I've run these streets with the people you want to dull doze off the face of the earth.

Part of the people you want to nuke and dull doze are my grandparents and other family and for that I say F*ck all of you that play around with such suggestions.

Part of posting this up was to see just how yellow bellied most people are when somebody comes with a solution that puts their *** right in the thick of it. Nobody wants to come in and help, they just want to stay tucked away somewhere they think their safe at.

It's been said over and over again that if a community is armed and together, they can uplift the area, but when I propose you help bring this knowledge and thinking to Oakland by example, I get laughed at.

Yes the point of the Op would be for PEOPLE TO KNOW we are armed and ready. The Op would not be effective if nobody knew why we were there come on.

Swiss
04-03-2009, 9:11 PM
Hey, I'm sorry you're pissed off but I disagree that being armed is the foundation for change in a crappy neighborhood. Being armed may be essential to your safety while at home but it'll just get you killed if you make it known. Not one word was said about going into the community to help out, find jobs for the slackers, establish neighborhood watches, and generally turn the community around from the inside out. That's the way to fix things and I daresay you'll get a lot more people signing on.

JDoe
04-03-2009, 9:33 PM
Patrick McCullough (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/02/18/MNG0EHB6VK1.DTL) seems to have made a difference in his neighborhood without creating a fortress. I like his method better but admit I have zero experience in either your proposal or Patrick's tactics.

Wouldn't a fortress just be a lot like a police station? Less crime inside and on the grounds but people getting mugged and raped half a block away?

Mulay El Raisuli
04-04-2009, 5:57 AM
Yes the point of the Op would be for PEOPLE TO KNOW we are armed and ready. The Op would not be effective if nobody knew why we were there come on.


OK, I've had some at this also. I will stay serious now.

Friend, you aren't "armed & ready" unless & until LOC and/or shall issue is the law of the land. Because, based on what I read in the link posted by JDoe, unless you're really ready to do as Patrick McCullough did, you're just a target.

And while I'm on that, let me mention that there were some very stupid people interviewed. Like Elizabeth Hutchinson, who rates the shooting as "vigilantism." What she fails to see is that shooting in self defense is NOT vigilantism.

The article is also useful for showing that the proper way, the ONLY way, to deal with bullies is with force. True in high school, true everywhere else. Show that you just ain't gonna take their crap, & they fold.

Which is why I really do favor your idea. I just think that it's just a touch premature.

The Raisuli