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View Full Version : Want to receive 1883 SAA Colt from Texas


aerosick
03-31-2009, 8:38 AM
I've searched the Posts here, but I got lost...

1. Is it possible to buy from a Private Party in Texas and get the revolver shipped to me?

2. What issues and/or regulations do we face from both ends?

3. If it can be shipped, what carriers can he use?

4. What costs are we looking at?

5. Has anyone here actually done this before recently?

Thanks,

Billy

FS00008
03-31-2009, 10:24 AM
1) Made prior to 1898? Black Powder? No problem. Made after 1898? Non-Black Powder? FFL to FFL. (It's a Single Action so it is exempt from roster anyways.)
2. If it's an "Antique" or "Black Powder" just don't ship it with ammunition.
3) Any if it's an antique/black powder because it is not a "firearm"
4) No idea
5) I bought an antique (pre-1898) cap and ball face to face with no problems. Haven't done mail order though...

rabagley
03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
Or he can get a C&R FFL and a CA COE, buy the gun FTF, bring it home, and register it with the DOJ within 15 days.

Dr Rockso
03-31-2009, 11:52 AM
Or he can get a C&R FFL and a CA COE, buy the gun FTF, bring it home, and register it with the DOJ within 15 days.
Shouldn't be necessary for a pre-1898, just drop it in the mail.

FS00008
03-31-2009, 12:25 PM
Or he can get a C&R FFL and a CA COE, buy the gun FTF, bring it home, and register it with the DOJ within 15 days.

That isn't necessary for Black Powder or Pre-1898 Antiques...

aerosick
03-31-2009, 12:41 PM
Or he can get a C&R FFL and a CA COE, buy the gun FTF, bring it home, and register it with the DOJ within 15 days.

Let me clarify: I'm in CA, the Seller is in Texas. I want him to send me the revolver if this can be done Legal. No final deal has been struck pending the legality of this.

I sent off for a C&R a month ago, still no application. Due to the shortage of time, (other buyers waiting in line), this is not an option. I doubt if getting the rest is very quick.

Thanks,

Billy

aerosick
03-31-2009, 12:45 PM
1) Made prior to 1898? Black Powder? No problem. Made after 1898? Non-Black Powder? FFL to FFL. (It's a Single Action so it is exempt from roster anyways.)


Are you saying that ALL Single Actions are exempt from the ATF Roster?

Thanks,

Billy

(I'm starting to see why most Auctions state: Won't Ship to CA)

Dr Rockso
03-31-2009, 12:47 PM
Are you saying that ALL Single Actions are exempt from the ATF Roster?

Thanks,

Billy

(I'm starting to see why most Auctions state: Won't Ship to CA)
It's the DOJ roster (not the ATF) but yes, ALL single actions are exempt from the roster (dubious thanks to SASS).

All blackpowder cap-and-ball or muzzleloading firearms are exempt from the 01 FFL requirement, as are all antique (pre-1898) firearms.

Edit: To clarify see below
PC 12078
(6) Subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the sale of a handgun if both of the
following requirements are satisfied:
(B) The firearm is an antique firearm as defined in paragraph (16)
of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States
Code.


USC 921.18

(16) The term "antique firearm" means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or


PS I am not a lawyer, take my advice at your own peril, etc etc...

CHS
03-31-2009, 1:11 PM
It's the DOJ roster (not the ATF) but yes, ALL single actions are exempt from the roster (dubious thanks to SASS).


Not true.

There are barrel length minimums and overall length minimums.

Just because it's single-action doesn't mean it's exempt, but most are.

FS00008
03-31-2009, 1:40 PM
There is no such thing as the "ATF Safe Handgun" roster. It is the "California 'Safe' Handgun" roster and in this case if it is an Colt SAA and meets those requirements, it is exempt.

Dr Rockso
03-31-2009, 1:41 PM
Not true.

There are barrel length minimums and overall length minimums.

Just because it's single-action doesn't mean it's exempt, but most are.
D'oh, I knew that. Never speak in absolutes :p

Scarecrow Repair
03-31-2009, 1:43 PM
It is not black powder guns which are exempt, but muzzle loading. Look on any web site selling black powder SAA replicas or even originals, and they require modern hand gun rules. These are cartridge guns, not cap-and-ball or flintlock muzzle loaders.

I'd bet a paycheck you can't legally transfer that SAA without going thru an FFL01. It is a handgun.

I have no idea if anyone has ever made a smokeless muzzle loader or what rules would apply, but black powder itself does not make a gun exempt.

CHS
03-31-2009, 3:00 PM
I'd bet a paycheck you can't legally transfer that SAA without going thru an FFL01. It is a handgun.

Pre-1898 firearms are in a class the ATF calls "Antique Firearms", and are no longer firearms for the purposes of normal FFL transfers (4473 and/or DROS).

Since these are no longer firearms according to regular law, you can have the gun mailed directly to your house.

Nodda Duma
03-31-2009, 3:05 PM
From Penal Code 12020(b)(5)

An antique firearm is defined as any firearm that was manufactured in or before 1898 and is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition. This includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, regardless of the date of manufacture. Firearms manufactured in or before 1898 that use fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade are also considered antiques.

So if I understand this correctly, the California definition of an antique is a little different than the Federal definition...and so a 1883 Colt SAA would not be an antique according to California as it was designed to use conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition. It would default to a C&R handgun and would require transfer to an FFL01 from out of state (or an FFL03 holder could import directly into state and submit handgun registration form within 5 days).

That's how it reads..am I interpreting this correctly?

-Jason

singleshotman
03-31-2009, 3:10 PM
What to bet ?, that's the easyest5 $800 i ever made. If it's pre-1898, it's an antique and i don't care if it's a cartridge gun or not.CA law is the same as
Federal law on this.Last year i bought a Hopkins & Allen i 44-40 and it was shipped to me, not my FFL.It was made prior to 1898 as the maker, Hopkins and Allen, went belly-up in 1898 and became a corporation with resulting change in barrel markings, very easy to prove pre-1898.BTW, all this was added in 1991 as an admentment to the original 1991 assult-weapons bill in CA, that's the only good thing to come out of that bill. Prevous to this you coun't even buy a muzzle-loading handgun in the this state without a 15-day waiting period, so CA guns laws are not all bad. I would hate to live in Chicago, NY or NJ for example.

ke6guj
03-31-2009, 3:11 PM
12020(b)(5) is for stuff like SBS/SBR,etc.

12070 -12072 are the sections that requires firearms to be transfered through a dealer.

And this would apply to that,
12001(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and
paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b),
(c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm"
does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as
an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18
of the United States Code.

CHS
03-31-2009, 3:13 PM
From Penal Code 12020(b)(5)

Firearms manufactured in or before 1898 that use fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade are also considered antiques.

So if I understand this correctly, the California definition of an antique is a little different than the Federal definition...and so a 1883 Colt SAA would not be an antique according to California as it was designed to use conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition. It would default to a C&R handgun and would require transfer to an FFL01 from out of state (or an FFL03 holder could import directly into state and submit handgun registration form within 5 days).

That's how it reads..am I interpreting this correctly?

-Jason


"No longer manufactured in the United States" and "not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade".

I'm pretty sure that would still keep it classified as an antique.

But who knows.

ke6guj
03-31-2009, 3:20 PM
"No longer manufactured in the United States" and "not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade".

I'm pretty sure that would still keep it classified as an antique.

But who knows.thats the definition of an "antique" for 12020-purposes. So you can't take a 1873 lever action and make an SBR out of it. For purposes of 12276.1, they have an alternate definition of "antique" that applies to any firearm made before 1899. With that, you could have a pre-99 AW that shot commonly avialable ammo.

And for portions of 12070-12072, they use the federal definition of an "antique".

singleshotman
03-31-2009, 3:29 PM
I agree that the wording of the law is a little strange, however CA WORDING IS THE SAME AS FEDERAL, and i've been buying antiques by mail since 1969.According to all the gun dealer's i've talked to(including some rich ones)it's the date, not the Ammo that matters, lots of Websites also say this.So go ahead and buy it, i'll bet you that the DOJ could care less about antique revolvers.I once had a problem buying a Martini-Henry made in 1882(stamped), the dealer wouldn't sell it to me. I called DOJ in Sacremento and they said the dealer is an idiot, buy it they said.

aerosick
03-31-2009, 3:36 PM
I agree that the wording of the law is a little strange, however CA WORDING IS THE SAME AS FEDERAL, and i've been buying antiques by mail since 1969.According to all the gun dealer's i've talked to(including some rich ones)it's the date, not the Ammo that matters, lots of Websites also say this.So go ahead and buy it, i'll bet you that the DOJ could care less about antique revolvers.I once had a problem buying a Martini-Henry made in 1882(stamped), the dealer wouldn't sell it to me. I called DOJ in Sacremento and they said the dealer is an idiot, buy it they said.

Some of the Auctions state that "CC&R Required". Is this the same as the CA C&R?

Do you have any special CA Licenses you need to buy antique guns from out-of-state?

Thanks,

Billy

FS00008
03-31-2009, 3:38 PM
Even if it's a blackpowder cartridge... it's still an antique and/or the cartridge is not available through ordinary channels of commercial trade. Which means that it would fall under the "Antique and/or Replica thereof". I could not walk into a Big 5 or anywhere else for that matter and buy a box of Blackpowder 44 Russian Cartridges. I have to search for on the net and buy it through a non-ordinary place due to the fact that it's not a "commonly" available cartridge.

This being applied (Not to mention the fact that due to its date it is already an antique according to both the State and the Government) it does not have to go through an FFL. Now for prudence's sake, if I were selling an Antique pistol, I would verify that the buyer was of legal age and get a signed statement stating that the buyer is not restricted by law from owning firearms as well as a copy of the buyer's driver's license...

CHS
03-31-2009, 3:39 PM
Some of the Auctions state that "CC&R Required". Is this the same as the CA C&R?


There's no such thing as a CA C&R.

The C&R is a Federal Firearms License (FFL) Type 03, AKA FFL03.

FS00008
03-31-2009, 3:40 PM
Some of the Auctions state that "CC&R Required". Is this the same as the CA C&R?

Do you have any special CA Licenses you need to buy antique guns from out-of-state?

Thanks,

Billy

C&R=FFL03 which is not issued by the state of California. That is issued by the ATF (FEDERAL GOVERNMENT).

No special licenses needed to buy antique guns unless they fall under the definition of an AW or the like... but that opens up a whole nother can of worms.

For your Colt SAA as long as it was made prior to 1898. You can have it sent directly to your house.

FS00008
03-31-2009, 3:41 PM
There's no such thing as a CA C&R.

The C&R is a Federal Firearms License (FFL) Type 03, AKA FFL03.



Beat me by a minute! I must have been typing lol.

AAKA Cruffler :-)

ke6guj
03-31-2009, 3:43 PM
Even if it's a blackpowder cartridge... it's still an antique and/or the cartridge is not available through ordinary channels of commercial trade. Which means that it would fall under the "Antique and/or Replica thereof". I could not walk into a Big 5 and buy a box of Blackpowder 44 Russian Cartridges anywhere. I have to search for on the net and buy it through a non-ordinary place due to the fact that it's not a "commonly" available cartridge.

I don't think it works that way. AFAIK, they are talking about stuff like pinfire cartridges, not stuff like obsolete centerfire cartridges that are still manufactured in the US.

But that definition of antique mainly applies to NFA stuff, IIRC, so as long as you have a pre-1899, non-NFA-type firearm, you are ok.

aerosick
03-31-2009, 4:57 PM
There's no such thing as a CA C&R.

The C&R is a Federal Firearms License (FFL) Type 03, AKA FFL03.

Any idea what the Auctions mean by "CC&R Required"? I've seen this on several Auctions, not necessarily SSA's made prior to 1898.

It's been 15 years since I bought a handgun here in CA (from a Dealer) and I'm trying to get back "up to speed"...

Thanks,

Billy

FS00008
03-31-2009, 5:44 PM
Link please? I would assume it's a typo...

aerosick
03-31-2009, 5:47 PM
Link please? I would assume it's a typo...

http://www.antiqueguns.com/auction/item.cgi?robles/robles-36882

544-TC36, Colt New Army, M-1903, with 70% overall deep blue, functional in DA and SA. In .38 CF, wood grips have some oil rubbed on them, but not sanded, numerous markings all over the gun. Bright bore, very fine spotting in groves. Fine overall. CC&R needed by buyer.

Billy

ke6guj
03-31-2009, 5:52 PM
I've never seen it typed like that, but the FFL is for a "Collector of Curios and Relics", CC&R?

FS00008
03-31-2009, 5:54 PM
He must mean C&R (FFL03) in which case this is not an pre-1899 antique and would have to through an FFL01 in California because it's a handgun. In addition to that you would have to have a valid HSC in order to take possession of it.

If you have a C&R however, you may drive to wherever it is located, take possession there, etc. You MUST report possession of it to DOJ within 15 days of bringing it into the state though.

Since you stated that you don't have a C&R earlier... you will need to have him ship it through an FFL01 unless I'm missing something and this is truly a pre-1899 pistol...

aerosick
03-31-2009, 5:58 PM
He must mean C&R (FFL03) in which case this is not an pre-1899 antique and would have to through an FFL01 in California because it's a handgun. In addition to that you would have to have a valid HSC in order to take possession of it.

If you have a C&R however, you may drive to wherever it is located, take possession there, etc. You MUST report possession of it to DOJ within 15 days of bringing it into the state though.

Since you stated that you don't have a C&R earlier... you will need to have him ship it through an FFL01 unless I'm missing something and this is truly a pre-1899 pistol...

I have a valid HSC but don't have the C&R yet.

This is not the revolver I first posted about located in Texas. I just wanted to find out what CC&R was.

Thanks,

Billy

FS00008
03-31-2009, 6:01 PM
Well make sure you know if it's a pre 1899 before you have it shipped :-).

It just is the long name for C&R like Ke6guj said IMHO.

aerosick
03-31-2009, 6:23 PM
Thanks everyone for helping with my Lesson _____ 101...

Billy

Dr Rockso
03-31-2009, 7:18 PM
My 03 FFL says "Collector of Curios and Relics" = CC&R

aerosick
03-31-2009, 7:31 PM
My 03 FFL says "Collector of Curios and Relics" = CC&R

Aha! :thumbsup:

Thanks,

Billy

rabagley
03-31-2009, 7:38 PM
I sent off for a C&R a month ago, still no application. Due to the shortage of time, (other buyers waiting in line), this is not an option. I doubt if getting the rest is very quick.

I went online and requested the forms twice before calling the BATFE and getting someone on the phone. The woman who answered scoffed at the online system and sent me two copies of my FFL07 application within two days.

You're right that your C&R won't be resolved in time for this gun, but give them a call to get your application started. Will speed things up dramatically.

aerosick
03-31-2009, 8:03 PM
I went online and requested the forms twice before calling the BATFE and getting someone on the phone. The woman who answered scoffed at the online system and sent me two copies of my FFL07 application within two days.

You're right that your C&R won't be resolved in time for this gun, but give them a call to get your application started. Will speed things up dramatically.

Thanks, I'll call tomorrow.

Billy